Positive compensation and its explanations .

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

When people need plumbing work done, they call a plumber.

When people need a house built, they call a carpenter.

When people need their car fixed, they call a mechanic.

When people need research and statistics performed they call a research scientist part time rifle shooter.

 

[kthomas]

We got phone calls telling us about each of you.

@brianf we're famous

 

[Ledzep]

@carbonbased I know lol. Just watching the show.

 

[cameljockey230]

When people need plumbing work done, they call a plumber.

When people need a house built, they call a carpenter.

When people need their car fixed, they call a mechanic.

When people need research and statistics performed they call a research scientist part time rifle shooter.

if i needed gun work done you would be the last name on my list right after the guy who cleans the cages at the zoo

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

@carbonbased I know lol. Just watching the show.

Are you also here to steal their data for profit? Apparently everyone else is.

 

[carbonbased]

@carbonbased I know lol. Just watching the show.

@Ledzep owns Beretta

 

[carbonbased]

Goddamnit I’m going to get sucked back into tuner threads. I unsubbed from one, but forgot about this one. No ill-will towards anyone! Just a little loopy today, long day and need to blow off some steam.

I should go for a walk.

I wish I owned CZ. I’d bring back the 527.

 

[timintx]

It didn't at least during Spear Point and I asked you about it. This is Shane by the way.

Hey Shane , Yes it did and always had one on all of my rifles . It is the muzzle brake and is adjusted by shaving the weight in the lathe and shooting until I get the pattern I want . Once the pattern is achieved no adjustment is needed after that as it is a infinite tune regardless of velocity but it is only for that bullet weight . Same on my light gun , same on my military demo gun but it is a suppressor. These patterns are highly specialized for infinite tunes. .

 

[timintx]

Is this your rifle?

View attachment 8246783

Yep

 

[timintx]

I think people mistake me for Kevin Thomas of Capstone...

What is your real name?

 

[timintx]

If you guys want to talk about the video I am happy to help with any questions but if you are here to troll . Please leave .

 

[timintx]

Are you also here to steal their data for profit? Apparently everyone else is.

If you are only here to talk smack and not to learn please leave .

 

[JBoomhauer]

I think people mistake me for Kevin Thomas of Capstone...

Hey uh long lost buddy. Can you hook me up with some 105 Hybrids?

 

[brianf]

All joking aside..you guys have serious issues.

Constantly saying members have different names.

You do realize the optics of that insanity make the lack of tuner data and terms like “infinite tune” seem even more ridiculous.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Jokes on you @brianf

@kthomas is actually Bryan Litz

 

[JBoomhauer]

Hey Shane , Yes it did and always had one on all of my rifles . It is the muzzle brake and is adjusted by shaving the weight in the lathe and shooting until I get the pattern I want . Once the pattern is achieved no adjustment is needed after that as it is a infinite tune regardless of velocity but it is only for that bullet weight . Same on my light gun , same on my military demo gun but it is a suppressor. These patterns are highly specialized for infinite tunes. .

So the answer is no. You tuned your rifle. You did not have a tuner on it.

 

[timintx]

So the answer is no. You tuned your rifle. You did not have a tuner on it.

Yes it is tuned with specific weights and can be adjusted . I also can add on weights for different tunes as well . If it comes off it is out of tune so yes it is a tuner .

 

[cameljockey230]

All joking aside..you guys have serious issues.

Constantly saying members have different names.

You do realize the optics of that insanity make the lack of tuner data and terms like “infinite tune” seem even more ridiculous.

All joking aside read the last line from Dr Geofftey Kolbe if you can.

Conclusions
It has been shown that the launch time of the bullet from the barrel, with reference to the transverse vibrations in the barrel, does vary with muzzle velocity, and this rate has been measured for Eley Tenex .22 rimfire ammunition in a 26 inch barrel. The proposition that positive compensation might be achieved by "tuning" a barrel, such that the muzzle angle is changing with time in a beneficial way at bullet launch, is thus a valid one.
In a test case, the vertical dispersion at a range of 50 metres was measured as a function of muzzle velocity for an "untuned" barrel. From this dispersion, and the known rate of change of launch time with muzzle velocity for a 26 inch barrel, a rate of change of angle at the muzzle for this barrel was calculated. Using an apparatus built to measure the rate of change of angle of a barrel, the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was measured and this agreed with that calculated from the group dispersion. This demonstrated that the apparatus was working as designed. It also showed that the vertical velocity of the muzzle is probably not significant in contributing to the vertical dispersion of the group in general, compared to the rate of change of muzzle angle, and was certainly not so in this case.

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating that positive compensation had been achieved.

The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

 

[timintx]

Jokes on you @brianf

@kthomas is actually Bryan Litz

Then they/ he are still trolls . And not interested in learning . Just trolling .

 

[JBoomhauer]

Yes it is tuned with specific weights and can be adjusted . I also can add on weights for different tunes as well . If it comes off it is out of tune so yes it is a tuner .

Do you swap between different weight muzzle brakes or slap on a tire balance weight on it when you remove too much material?

What happens when you need to shoot targets at multiple ranges, do you bring 4 different brakes and swap them out range dependent?

Genuinely curious.

 

[brianf]

All joking aside read the last line from Dr Geofftey Kolbe if you can.

Conclusions
It has been shown that the launch time of the bullet from the barrel, with reference to the transverse vibrations in the barrel, does vary with muzzle velocity, and this rate has been measured for Eley Tenex .22 rimfire ammunition in a 26 inch barrel. The proposition that positive compensation might be achieved by "tuning" a barrel, such that the muzzle angle is changing with time in a beneficial way at bullet launch, is thus a valid one.
In a test case, the vertical dispersion at a range of 50 metres was measured as a function of muzzle velocity for an "untuned" barrel. From this dispersion, and the known rate of change of launch time with muzzle velocity for a 26 inch barrel, a rate of change of angle at the muzzle for this barrel was calculated. Using an apparatus built to measure the rate of change of angle of a barrel, the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was measured and this agreed with that calculated from the group dispersion. This demonstrated that the apparatus was working as designed. It also showed that the vertical velocity of the muzzle is probably not significant in contributing to the vertical dispersion of the group in general, compared to the rate of change of muzzle angle, and was certainly not so in this case.

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating that positive compensation had been achieved.

The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

It’s incredible you consistently say you have irrefutable data showing tuners work…now on 2 threads, you only copy paste other people’s opinion.

Additionally you continually use 22lr as a example yet do not provide data linking 22br to center fire.

Your arguing with yourself at this point.

All anyone wants is testing data to be discussed. But apparently that is impossible to provide.

 

[timintx]

I might add , this video is instructional not for proof . You guys can get your own proof if you just try what is in the video .

 

[cameljockey230]

It’s incredible you consistently say you have irrefutable data showing tuners work…now on 2 threads, you only copy paste other people’s opinion.

Additionally you continually use 22lr as a example yet do not provide data linking 22br to center fire.

Your arguing with yourself at this point.

All anyone wants is testing data to be discussed. But apparently that is impossible to provide.

Actually it is peer reviewed and proven fact.
What is incredible your claim to work in pharma with a R-D team and it appears to me that you can't make ice cubes without a recipe.

 

[timintx]

Do you swap between different weight muzzle brakes or slap on a tire balance weight on it when you remove too much material?

What happens when you need to shoot targets at multiple ranges, do you bring 4 different brakes and swap them out range dependent?

Genuinely curious.

As was stated in the video the convergence point is down range will benefit dispersion at all ranges not just one distance . Watch the video .

 

[brianf]

Actually it is peer reviewed and proven fact.
What is incredible your claim to work in pharma with a R-D team and it appears to me that you can't make ice cubes without a recipe.

Again deflecting.

Should change your screen name to “redirect”

because you haven’t answered a direct question in over a week

Bring data or go home it’s that easy

 

[JBoomhauer]

As was stated in the video the convergence point is down range will benefit dispersion at all ranges not just one distance . Watch the video .

I get how they work, but if you have known settings for known yardages, why would you not adjust tune perfectly between different distances.

You are trying to shoot the smallest groups and win, Right? Why deal with any additional vertical in group size when a match is on the line?

 

[cameljockey230]

Again deflecting.

Should change your screen name to “redirect”

because you haven’t answered a direct question in over a week

Bring data or go home it’s that easy

Why the moderators/owner of this website allow your nonsense to continue is truly amazing.
You offer nothing to the shooting community and your actually quite detrimental to shooting in general and to this forum in particular

 

[cameljockey230]

I get how they work, but if you have known settings for known yardages, why would you not adjust tune perfectly between different distances.

You are trying to shoot the smallest groups and win, Right? Why deal with any additional vertical in group size when a match is on the line?

The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

 

[JBoomhauer]

The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

Yeah you said that already. Copy paste FTW

 

[timintx]

I get how they work, but if you have known settings for known yardages, why would you not adjust tune perfectly between different distances.

You are trying to shoot the smallest groups and win, Right? Why deal with any additional vertical in group size when a match is on the line?

That is when I would use my movable weight tuner and adjust it on the line when two loads hit level it is tuned , temp will change the tune with certain patterns. Again watch the video .

 

[timintx]

Here is the movable weight tuner that I used in 1000 yd Benchrest .

 

[cameljockey230]

Yeah you said that already. Copy paste FTW

The last line answered your question.

 

[brianf]

Why the moderators/owner of this website allow your nonsense to continue is truly amazing.
You offer nothing to the shooting community and your actually quite detrimental to shooting in general and to this forum in particular

So that means you do or don’t have data?

A simple yes it no will suffice

 

[JBoomhauer]

The last line answered your question.

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating that positive compensation had been achieved.

 

[cameljockey230]

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating that positive compensation had been achieved.

Read the last line again you missed what it said

 

[msgriff]

Hey Shane , Yes it did and always had one on all of my rifles . It is the muzzle brake and is adjusted by shaving the weight in the lathe and shooting until I get the pattern I want . Once the pattern is achieved no adjustment is needed after that as it is a infinite tune regardless of velocity but it is only for that bullet weight . Same on my light gun , same on my military demo gun but it is a suppressor. These patterns are highly specialized for infinite tunes. .

Are you stating that you tune a suppressed firearm by removing material from the suppressor on a lathe for your "military demo gun"?

 

[timintx]

Jboomhaur, let me add a critical point which is coldbore shot, if you were a military sniper and your life depended on the shot but you can not predict the exact velocity that will happen at that moment, what do you do ? You certainly can not guess if it will be slow or fast or correct velocity, But if the barrel aims it higher if it is slow and aims it lower if it is fast for that critical shot , it is automatic and is built in to the gun . That is the only way I would want it .

 

[timintx]

Are you stating that you tune a suppressed firearm by removing material from the suppressor on a lathe for your "military demo gun"?

The suppressor is machined to a specific weight for a specific pattern per my mathematical formula .I use form 1 and can make my own suppressors.These are only for me and to demo for the military.I do not make suppressors for anyone but me under my form 1 permit only .

 

[Tokay444]

There is nothing new here as Tim and Lynn went through this 20 years ago on benchrest central along with Bill Calfee.
You guys don't even scratch the surface as to what was posted back then.
Next Tim should post about tensioned barrels and this will start all over again.

Now to those who want to actually give a tuner a try here is a picture of a Stiller tuner on a 6mm-06 with a 30 inch #17 contour barrel.
The tuner is only 6 ounces. The mounting tube has been extended to get the extra leverage needed because the tuner is on the lightside.
I took the picture from the back so you can see how it is marked with Testors model paint.
If you can expand the picture there are paint dots and lines.
There are 3 nodes between one dot and one line that will shrink and open up your groups.
If your moving the weight half an inch your shooting in the dark

Weird that you refer to yourself in the third person.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Jboomhaur, let me add a critical point which is coldbore shot, if you were a military sniper and your life depended on the shot but you can not predict the exact velocity that will happen at that moment, what do you do ? You certainly can not guess if it will be slow or fast or correct velocity, But if the barrel aims it higher if it is slow and aims it lower if it is fast for that critical shot , it is automatic and is built in to the gun . That is the only way I would want it .

At what Distance?

 

[JBoomhauer]

Jboomhaur, let me add a critical point which is coldbore shot, if you were a military sniper and your life depended on the shot but you can not predict the exact velocity that will happen at that moment, what do you do ? You certainly can not guess if it will be slow or fast or correct velocity, But if the barrel aims it higher if it is slow and aims it lower if it is fast for that critical shot , it is automatic and is built in to the gun . That is the only way I would want it .

If I am a military sniper, I am likely using whatever I am given for a rifle and whatever ammunition I am given.

I certainly will not have a custom can tuned to the rifle. I will not have a brake lathe turned and tuned to the rifle.

What is this shit? LOL.

 

[timintx]

So that means you do or don’t have data?

A simple yes it no will suffice

I think that means he does not want to give it to you . Take it as that . Why keep arguing ?

 

[msgriff]

The suppressor is machined to a specific weight for a specific pattern per my mathematical formula .I use form 1 and can make my own suppressors.These are only for the military.

On the suppressor, what is the approximate weight differential for "untuned" to "tuned" (i.e. 5 grams removed)? How do you compensate for carbon build-up in the suppressor without extraordinarily short round count cleaning intervals? You stated that this is on a "military demo gun", how would this translate to any actual military use in real battlefield situations?
ETA: What is the weight difference of the suppressor between cleaned and uncleaned?

 

[timintx]

If I am a military sniper, I am likely using whatever I am given for a rifle and whatever ammunition I am given.

I certainly will not have a custom can tuned to the rifle. I will not have a brake lathe turned and tuned to the rifle.

What is this shit? LOL.

Well this type of tuning helps the rifle deal with out of the can ammo . These techniques can be used with existing weapon systems Simply by putting the right suppressor on bearing in mind the wrong weight can exaggerate the vertical dispersion . Why would you not want that ?

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

LOL. That's the comical part.

I can absolutely tell you that from the perspective of someone who has/does actually work behind a rifle, there is no scenario where your life depends on a shot in which the velocity difference of your issued ammo would be life and death.

For the life and death part of that scenario to exist, the distance between you and your target needs to be relatively close. In which case the velocity difference is negligible.


So, in this mythical scenario......you would have to be taking a shot at a distance where the SD/ES of your ammo is enough to amount to a miss AND you would have to be I a situation where you could also be targeted due to that miss.

In such a scenario, you have infinitely better options than using a rifle to engage the enemy or target.


Even if this tuning method does work, you'll never get a .mil contract with this logic.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Fun fact, his .mil contact is a Retired Gunny who uses soup cans to test his mile long shots. President might be in trouble.

 

[brianf]

I think that means he does not want to give it to you . Take it as that . Why keep arguing ?

Because he won’t answer yet yells from the hill tops “believe me”, “I’m correct and your not. “

On its face that stance needs information to prove his point.

I’ve given several very direct questions and he hasn’t answered one of them.

So either;
he has no data
is not 100% convinced in his own opinion
Or
Knows he is cornered and is just trying to change the topic

If you notice, every new member that posts on a tuner thread all ask the same questions…show me the data so I can decide and have a reasonable conversation.

Every new post is met with a copy and paste of rimfire (which is not even remotely close to center fire), or I just know.

If a member puts a opinion out on a forum be prepared to defend or explain your opinion..it’s just natural.

He refuses to…and here we are.

 

[timintx]

On the suppressor, what is the approximate weight differential for "untuned" to "tuned" (i.e. 5 grams removed)? How do you compensate for carbon build-up in the suppressor without extraordinarily short round count cleaning intervals? You stated that this is on a "military demo gun", how would this translate to any actual military use in real battlefield situations?
ETA: What is the weight difference of the suppressor between cleaned and uncleaned?

What I can say is yes all variables are taken to account. A full can of carbon adds 3 ounces . No doubt it will change tune but the patterns and is why these patterns can be curtailed to come on to tune better as the can fills up or can be at least made to have the same pattern as much as possible within the predicted weight gain .

 

[timintx]

Because he won’t answer yet yells from the hill tops “believe me”, “I’m correct and your not. “

On its face that stance needs information to prove his point.

I’ve given several very direct questions and he hasn’t answered one of them.

So either;
he has no data
is not 100% convinced in his own opinion
Or
Knows he is cornered and is just trying to change the topic

If you notice, every new member that posts on a tuner thread all ask the same questions…show me the data so I can decide and have a reasonable conversation.

Every new post is met with a copy and paste of rimfire (which is not even remotely close to center fire), or I just know.

If a member puts a opinion out on a forum be prepared to defend or explain your opinion..it’s just natural.

He refuses to…and here we are.

Well it appears he is trying to help but you want to call him out instead of trying what he had tried to relay . Why is that?

 

[Ledzep]

If we are to assume that once a bullet is on it's exit vector, it is on it's exit vector and that vector doesn't change...
*Caveat*
I'm not saying this is what happens. This is an assumption for the sake of discussion. There are some things that can happen down range that will push a bullet off of this vector but we're ignoring them for a moment.

Then, when we take my rifle, details as follows:

6mm ARC 26" long 1:8 twist Proof Research Modified Competition Contour (1.0" dia. section at muzzle)
109gr Hornady ELD-M
27.6gr Varget
2723fps Avg
ES: ~45fps
SD: 9fps
30-shot group ES: 0.65 MOA, 0.189 Mil (mind you this is a round, circular group-- and mean radius is a better tool for measuring dispersion, but for the sake of looking at the worst case... )

Assume equally distributed MV (+/- 22.5 fps from average)

Vel_Fast: 2745fps
Vel_Slow: 2700fps

Using 4DoF solver, keep conditions the same.
Altitude: 2000ft
Temp: 65 deg F
Humidity: 50%
Pressure: 27.82 inHg
Wind: 0 mph

Force 1000yd zero with fastest and slowest expected velocities

Vel_Slow Impact at 100yd: 9.20 mil high
Vel_Fast Impact at 100yd: 8.83 mil high

Delta: 0.37 mil

Expected Vertical group at 100yd with proper 1000yd compensation: 0.37+0.189 = 0.559 mil
Expected Horizontal group at 100yd: 0.189 mil

So if we assume that drag variability is perfect (false with all bullets, better with some than others.. but we're assuming for the sake of argument), and once a bullet leaves on it's exit vector it is not coerced away from it except by wind (be it vertical or horizontal)... and we assumed zero wind.

Then the system must produce .559 mil tall and .189 mil wide groups at 100yd AND it must trend that the faster shots go low and the slower shots go high to produce .189 mil dispersion patterns down range.

That is a perfect system that should win 1000yd BR (provided good wind calls) disproportionately. Worst case is about a 6-7" group at 1000yd with the bulk of everything else being well under that, especially 5-shot groups.

Realistically, let's argue we can get a 50-60% trend for compensation, so even so I'd expect to see upper .3mil to .4mil vertical, a 2:1 ratio vertical to horizontal at 100yd. Additionally, we can expect because of drag variability to see some loss of precision down-range (again, variable depending on bullet+barrel+powder).

Am I way off base?