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powder and accuracy

ericf

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
May 27, 2007
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texas gulf coast (Pasadena)
I'm trying to understand the relationship between powder (brands) and accuracy results.
To elaborate, If velocity stays the same, bullet weight is fixed, and fired through the same barrel, how can different powders effect external ballistics and accuracy?
On a very basic level of understanding, Once the powder is ignited, it forces the bullet through the bore (accelerating), but once the bullet leaves the bore, how does powder brand effect accuracy? (given all the other parameters remain equal).
Thanks for the explanation in advance.
 
Re: powder and accuracy

Basically it's burn rate and/or burn characteristic changes the barrel harmonics, and changing the barrel harmonics either enhances or reduces the potential for consistant results......or "accuracy" as you are calling it.

You need to balance your burn rate with your case capacity and bullet weight to achieve an efficient load, if optimum performance is the goal. I like as high a load density as I can get without compressing the charge, 90 to 98 percent for the seating depth range I'm working with. This means finding just the right burn rate, and even then it might not work as well as I want and I need to try something else.
 
Re: powder and accuracy

If the velocity and the extreme spread thereof were the same between two powders, then accuracy should be the same. What you'll find is that even if average velocity is close to the same, that the extreme spreads that to into the average are quite a bit different with some powders.

You'll also find that the velocity that gives best accuracy with one powder is many times different than the velocity that gives the best accuracy with another powder; probably because of he extreme spread thing.
 
Re: powder and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grumulkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the velocity and the extreme spread thereof were the same between two powders, then accuracy should be the same. What you'll find is that even if average velocity is close to the same, that the extreme spreads that to into the average are quite a bit different with some powders.

You'll also find that the velocity that gives best accuracy with one powder is many times different than the velocity that gives the best accuracy with another powder; probably because of he extreme spread thing. </div></div>

You need to boil it down further than that to answer the OP's question. What causes a high ES, or a low ES? Burn rate and burn characteristic as it relates to that case capacity and bullet weight, in that chamber/barrel.

You can have an absolutely kickass low ES and still be way outside of an accuracy node; and on the flip side, you can have a not so great ES and the load shoots great because you are in the sweet spot with barrel harmonics.

No voodoo, just physics.......
 
Re: powder and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grumulkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the velocity and the extreme spread thereof were the same between two powders, then accuracy should be the same. ... </div></div>

You also need to factor in the burn rate, which changes acceleration in the barrel, which effects barrel harmonics (which tripwire mentioned) which in turn effects accuracy nodes.

Just because they reach the same velocity at muzzle- does not mean they achieved that velocity at the same acceleration.
 
Re: powder and accuracy

Funny... I asked the same question on another forum recently. I couldn't wrap my head around it initially, either.

Why was accuracy/consistency (grouping) affected by velocity? Other than elevation differences due to bullet drop differences, I couldn't figure it out. I mean, I understood the reasoning behind wanting velocity to minimize flight times (and energy for hunting applications), but never understood why a half-grain of powder could make large differences in groupings.
And, sometimes after groups opening after reaching a certain load when working "up", they might suddenly tighten right back up with the next half-grain.

Puzzling to me...

Until someone mentioned barrel harmonics, then the light went off in my head. So obvious, I missed it. Everything- especially this- affects barrel vibrations.

Unfortunately, since harmonics are so difficult to get a handle on in the first place, it just adds one more piece to the already complicated puzzle of finding the "ultimate" load...
 
Re: powder and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Unfortunately, since harmonics are so difficult to get a handle on in the first place, it just adds one more piece to the already complicated puzzle of finding the "ultimate" load... </div></div>

Actually no, it's not that difficult.....

I've worked with OCW for about a decade now but in recent years I've found initial workable nodes simply by letting QL choose some parameters for me, OCW testing the upper third of the weight range, and doing it with one round per weight increment. From there it's just a matter of knowing what to fine tune to make it better.

All you need to know about working with your barrel's harmonics in these two links:

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com



 
Re: powder and accuracy

Ok, this is going to sound screwy, but if barrel harmonics is one of the variables for accuracy, Then why bed the action and float the barrel? Wouldnt floating the action and bedding the full length of the barrel help eliminate this negative?
Sorry for this assumption, but I'm just applying simple logic (which I know cant be done) but for the purpose of those that know.
Thanks,

Also, harmonics is a product of bullet and velocity through the barrel. With the bullet and velocity being equal, the harmonics should be the same. Acceleration does play a role, but it couldnt?? play that large of a role given a shorter length barrel and an equal velicity. (could it?)
 
Re: powder and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ericf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, this is going to sound screwy, but if barrel harmonics is one of the variables for accuracy, Then why bed the action and float the barrel? Wouldnt floating the action and bedding the full length of the barrel help eliminate this negative?
Sorry for this assumption, but I'm just applying simple logic (which I know cant be done) but for the purpose of those that know.
Thanks,

Also, harmonics is a product of bullet and velocity through the barrel. With the bullet and velocity being equal, the harmonics should be the same. Acceleration does play a role, but it couldnt?? play that large of a role given a shorter length barrel and an equal velicity. (could it?) </div></div>

Bedding an action is to provide the action with a solid foundation so it's movement and flex are as limited as possible.

Floating the barrel allows the harmonics to behave as close to the same way, consistently, from shot to shot, without an increasing influence from contact with the stock and the effects of barrel heat.

Full length bedding the barrel only works on some rifles, and barrel harmonics are the deal maker/breaker if it works or not.

I've heard of floating a .22RF action and bedding the barrel, but I would never consider it practical with a high intensity centerfire. The recoil lug on bolt rifles is what saves the system from self distruction, and that's quite well connected to the action, which must be in contact with the stock for it to work...thus bedding the action for a solid foundation.

Barrel harmonics are going to be there no matter what you do......

Negative effects of barrel harmonics come into play at the muzzle, when the shockwave is at the muzzle causing the muzzle to move and oscillate, which throws the bullet to an unpredictable POI; the trick is to time the exit of the bullet when the shockwave is not affecting the muzzle in that way. Translated, that produces an "accuracy node", or good groups. When the muzzle oscillates from influence by the shockwave, that produces a "scatter node", or bad groups and flyers.

I typically see two accuracy nodes in the parameters of load development that I concentrate on. In between those accuracy nodes I also see the width of the scatter nodes. What that means is that the shockwave travels from the breech to the muzzle, and back, at least twice while the bullet is accelerating inside the bore. What that means is the shockwave is a whole lot damn faster than the bullet. What that means is my human perception of whatever physics is taking place from ignition to bullet exit can only be defined by knowing I shot the round and feeling the recoil. What that means is I have no way of comprehending or measuring the dynamics of what is taking place inside that cartridge case and/or bore with the difference between two loads 1/2 grain of powder different, or the difference between one brand of powder or another. What that means is, because we are on the super micro scale of time and action, it's not too difficult to realize all it would take is a very small change in internal ballistics to make a big difference in the dynamics of what's going on.

Different powders, despite having similar burn rates, are by the very essence of definition, different. To achieve the exact same internal ballistics to produce the exact same shockwave, to produce the exact same results, would mean they couldn't possibly be different. H/X brand of powder produces one set of internal ballistics because of it's nature determined by it's properties; IMR/X brand of powder, although very close in burn rate to H/X brand, is made by someone else of different compounds, and will produce it's own set of internal ballistics determined by it's own properties.

Everything you are questioning is what is taking place as; the powder ignites and begins to burn in a controlled explosion, as the brass expands in all directions, as the chamber walls expand, as the bullet begins to move, as the bullet enters into the lands, as the bullet leaves the case neck, as the brass is forced rearward, as the bolt lugs slam into the lug recesses, as the bullet begins to travel down the barrel, as the building pressure expands the barrel behind the bullet, as the bullet accelerates to it's fastest possible speed governed by the pressure behind it over the length of the barrel, as the bullet exits the muzzle....all while a shockwave, produced by the initial "explosion" of the propellent, is slinging back and forth over the length of the barrel and chamber causing the muzzle to oscillate, calm, oscillate, calm, oscillate, etc.

Change just one of those events by even the slightest amount in time or action and you've changed all the rest of the components of the equation....thus the "difference" between two powders despite all things being generically "equal" by our human perception of it. Some differences are not so bad, and are within an acceptable range of tolerance, some just aren't.
 
Re: powder and accuracy

A couple of points:

Different powders create a different shape to the pressure curve, some with faster leading edge, some with slower leading edge. The trailing edge shape is determined by the amount of powder and the acceleration of the bullet down the tube. The acceleration is dependent on the length of the shank on the bullet and to some extent the thickness of the jacketing material. The different shape, then, propogates down the barrel, reflects off the end--several times before the bullet leaves the tube. If you can get a smooth bell-curve shape to the pressure curve with several powders, then, equal velocity will pretty much end up with similar accuracy. But if the powder burns "awkwardly" this may no longer be the case.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ericf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, this is going to sound screwy, but if barrel harmonics is one of the variables for accuracy, Then why bed the action and float the barrel? Wouldnt floating the action and bedding the full length of the barrel help eliminate this negative?</div></div>

Full floating the barrel allows each firing interval to see the same set of harmonic pressure wave reflections. If the barrel touches the stock, one firing may see a certain damping in one direction and anothe firing might see a completely different dampening.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, harmonics is a product of bullet and velocity through the barrel.</div></div>

Only in so much as pressure curve shape is constant.

Bullets of the same weight but a different shank length accelerate through the bore differently and this affects the shape of the pressure curve. The integral of the shape of the pressure curve (with respect to the bullets weight) is what creates the muzzle velocity. Thus, two bullets of the same weight can create different barrel harmonics.
 
Re: powder and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple of points:

Different powders create a different shape to the pressure curve, some with faster leading edge, some with slower leading edge. The trailing edge shape is determined by the amount of powder and the acceleration of the bullet down the tube. The acceleration is dependent on the length of the shank on the bullet and to some extent the thickness of the jacketing material. The different shape, then, propogates down the barrel, reflects off the end--several times before the bullet leaves the tube. If you can get a smooth bell-curve shape to the pressure curve with several powders, then, equal velocity will pretty much end up with similar accuracy. But if the powder burns "awkwardly" this may no longer be the case.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ericf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, this is going to sound screwy, but if barrel harmonics is one of the variables for accuracy, Then why bed the action and float the barrel? Wouldnt floating the action and bedding the full length of the barrel help eliminate this negative?</div></div>

Full floating the barrel allows each firing interval to see the same set of harmonic pressure wave reflections. If the barrel touches the stock, one firing may see a certain damping in one direction and anothe firing might see a completely different dampening.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, harmonics is a product of bullet and velocity through the barrel.</div></div>

Only in so much as pressure curve shape is constant.

Bullets of the same weight but a different shank length accelerate through the bore differently and this affects the shape of the pressure curve. The integral of the shape of the pressure curve (with respect to the bullets weight) is what creates the muzzle velocity. Thus, two bullets of the same weight can create different barrel harmonics. </div></div>

A more concise, and better termed explanation, for sure......