Powder Equivalence

[Thunderkok]

I know this question will likely cause 50% of readers to pop a vessel, but I have been reading a lot into gunpowder manufacturing. I live in KC, so the Hodgdon HQ is close. I wondered where the make their powder. Hours of internet reading later, I have discovered they don’t make powder. In fact, none of the powder brands make powder (don’t start with the Alliant / Radford Arsenal crap). The brands we know are relabeling large lots of powder purchased from a small number of worldwide manufacturers. And, since the “brand names” are all buying from the same few manufacturers, it would stand to reason that the underlying product is the same in many cases. So, I searched for Powder Equivalency. There is a thread here from 2014 where someone posted a similar’ish question but wanted to mix powders. (https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/powder-equivalents.202487/#post-202487). That seems foolish to me as lot variance could cause problems.

Finally to my question! I was looking for H1000 powder and haven’t seen any. But, according to this equivalence chart, Vihtavuori N170 is the same thing. And I have seen N170 for sale. For those with a lot of experience, would you “substitute” an equivalent powder with confidence the “starting load” won’t blow you up? My thought is that if I could find pounds of powder from a single lot of an equivalent, I should be able to find a good load. But, I want to make sure my face doesn’t eat shrapnel when trying.

ADI	Hodgdon	Alliant	IMR	Winchester	Vectan	Norma	Accurate Arms	Vihtavuori
						R-1
		e3						N310
APS350 / AS30N	Clays	Red Dot			AS	N2010	NITRO 100
Trail Boss		Bullseye	Trail Boss
APS450 / AS50N	International	Green Dot	700X	WST			AA 2	N320
AP50N	HP 38		PB	W231
AP70N	Universal	Unique	SR 7625				AA 5	N330
		Herco		WSF	A1
			800X	WAP			AA 7	N340
AP100			SR 4756
	HS- 6			W540				3N37
	HS- 7	Blue Dot		W571			AA 9	N350
		Steel			Ba 6			N105
		2400	SR4759				AA4100	N110
AR2205	H4227 / H110		IMR4227	W296		R- 123	AA1680	N120
AR2207	H4198	Reloader 7	IMR4198	W680	Tu 2000	N200		N130
Bench Mark 1								N133
AR2219	H322	10-X
Bench Mark 2	BENCHMARK		IMR3031				AA2015
Bench Mark 8208			IMR 8208 XBR
AR2206	BLC( 2)				Tu 3000		AA2230
	H335			W748				N135
AR2206H	H4895		IMR4895		Tu 5000		AA2460
AR2208	Varget		IMR4064				AA2520
			IMR4320			N201
						N202	AA2700	N140 / N540
	H380	Reloader 15				N203
AR2209	H414/ H4350		IMR4350	W760	Tu 7000	N204	AA4350	N150 / N550
	H450	Reloader 19				N205
			IMR4831	WMR			AA3100	N160 / N560
AR2213SC	H4831
		Reloader 22	IMR7828	WXR	Tu 8000	MRP		N165
AR2217	H1000							N170
AR2225	Retumbo	Reloader 25					Magpro	24N41
AR2218	H870/ H50BMG						AA8700	20N29

Powder equivalents

Powder equivalents Note: This table shows only approximate equivalent values within about 5%. Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, firearm, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to lot. As a consequence, it must be understood that Australian Munitions...

www.adiworldclass.com.au

 

[Tchitcherine]

Comapre “starting loads” from the Hodgdon vs. Vihtavuori load data for your cartridge?

For example, for 300 WM, with 230gr Berger ("TACT" vs "Hybrid Target")
Hodgdon H1000 starting load = 69.1 gr, Max = 76.0C gr.
Vihtavuori N170 starting load = 67.7 gr, Max = 74.2 gr.

Whether the difference reflects the performance of the powder, or the risk tolerance of the lawyers, who knows.
But since the data exist for each, why not trust the manufacturer instead of relying on some notional equivalence?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Not "the same thing" at all, but will be similar in burn speed. Nothing is a straight swap, even when re-creating factory loads.

Just start with the VV load data and do load development as usual.

 

[John Glidewell]

N170 is closer to Retumbo. IMR 8133 was a direct swap for H1k load in 338 Edge. These charts are not very accurate, close, but take with a grain of salt. N165 and N565 are closer to H1k than N170. N165, H1k, N565 in that order for burn rate. 8133 was exact replacement for H1k in my rig.

 

[Bmghunter]

If you are asking if h1000 and vn170 is the exact same powder, I doubt it. But h1000 is exactly the same as AR2217 (I think) because ADI manufactures the powder and hodgdon imports and relabels it with probably exclusive distribution in the states.
There's several powders that are exactly the same powder but just relabeled for different distribution channels.
That equivalence table is NOT that list of exactly the same powders though.

 

[Thunderkok]

If you are asking if h1000 and vn170 is the exact same powder, I doubt it. But h1000 is exactly the same as AR2217 (I think) because ADI manufactures the powder and hodgdon imports and relabels it with probably exclusive distribution in the states.
There's several powders that are exactly the same powder but just relabeled for different distribution channels.
That equivalence table is NOT that list of exactly the same powders though.

Does anyone know if this table exists?

 

[Thunderkok]

Comapre “starting loads” from the Hodgdon vs. Vihtavuori load data for your cartridge?

For example, for 300 WM, with 230gr Berger ("TACT" vs "Hybrid Target")
Hodgdon H1000 starting load = 69.1 gr, Max = 76.0C gr.
Vihtavuori N170 starting load = 67.7 gr, Max = 74.2 gr.

Whether the difference reflects the performance of the powder, or the risk tolerance of the lawyers, who knows.
But since the data exist for each, why not trust the manufacturer instead of relying on some notional equivalence?

That made me wonder if it is different testers, atmospherics, lawyer review, equipment, or really different. But, I figured if these guys make the powder, wouldn’t they know who they sell it to and what they rebrand it as? Serious question, not being a smart (_!_)

 

[6.5SH]

That made me wonder if it is different testers, atmospherics, lawyer review, equipment, or really different. But, I figured if these guys make the powder, wouldn’t they know who they sell it to and what they rebrand it as? Serious question, not being a smart (_!_)

So on these two powders, do they both say made in Australia or made in Finland? If they don't there is no chance it is the same powder.
Similar burn rate maybe, but that isn't the sole factor in powder differences.

 

[Doom]

The chart isn’t meant to be used to interchange data for reloading. It’s purpose is to provide some guidance in selecting alternative powders for a particular cartridge. For instance if you use H335 in 223 then W748 and N135 is probably a good alternative. 8208XBR is probably a little faster and AA 2460 and the 4895s are a little slower. It does not mean that the data is interchangeable.

All Hodgdon Extreme Powders and IMR 8208 XBR are made by ADI. H1000 and VV N170 are not the same.

 

[Bmghunter]

There IS a table of SOME exact rebranded powders, but I haven't seen a single table of all of them. They are on other websites so I won't link to them.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I’m gonna be the jerk here. They have these nice little books called reloading manuals. Sell for about 30 bucks or so; so a brace of them would set you back at worse say 90 to 120 dollars.

The make good reading and exactly what you asked is in them. Of course, if you don’t find the “equivalency” you were looking for, it may not be equivalent. Reading reloading manuals….Try it, you might actually like it.

And to be a real jerk, I can shoot a dozen holes in your equivalency chart in less than one minute. Its not accurate and powders with similar burning speeds are not equivalent. Its all wrong.

 

[Bacarrat]

I have had pretty good luck with the Enduron lineup of powders. Bad thing is that are as hard to get as the regular Hodgdon powders.

 

[Doom]

I’m gonna be the jerk here ......

And to be a real jerk, I can shoot a dozen holes in your equivalency chart in less than one minute. Its not accurate and powders with similar burning speeds are not equivalent. Its all wrong.

I’m usually the guilty one but I laid back on this one but wiillk hit the nail on the head.

 

[Im2bent]

I’m usually the guilty one but I laid back on this one but wiillk hit the nail on the head.

Heck there's even this new thing called the interwebs or nets or tubes or something like that it lets you look up information like reloading data or so I'm told. If you don't like a post it's super easy to ignore it rather than "be that guy".

Hodgdon Reloading Data Center – The Brand Thats True

www.hodgdonreloading.com

 

[Sniperwannabee]

This thread is worthless with out listing a equivalent to r26

 

[John Glidewell]

This thread is worthless with out listing a equivalent to r26

N570