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Rifle Scopes PR Heritage Scopes

Re: PR Heritage Scopes

And I answered it...PERIOD.

You then come back with a specific accusation to which you don't even know the answer! Where's the amazing Kreskin when you need him, huh?

I'm out.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Any tracking issues with USO? PH is a great scope. Best glass I have looked through. I personnally know 2 people with them, out of those two, one had a tracking issue. it seems that Premier is great about taking care of the problems. I went with USO because of the features and durability. When Premier comes out with their moa reticle version I will probably buy one. If they had one now I might have gone that route instead.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

First, you answered it in your OPINION. Secondly, there was no accusation, I just asked a question based on what would be my first priority in a scope, tracking, what I clearly said in my post. There's no question the PH has AMAZING glass. Good glass only means you can shoot a little later in the evening or can see a bit clearer. That is worthless without repeatability. Sure I loved the glass in my PH, but the fact that I could run it all the way out to 1100 yards and back to 100 and my zero didn't change was my favorite part.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Guys,

There is no "best" due to the fact the best is relative to the competition and task at hand.

and since the competition is always changing how can anything be the "best", the use and situation a tool is used changes from second to second.

So the best at anything, is the best tool for the given task. Change that task a little or a lot and your tool might work or fail.

So get over the "best" idea.

BTW, what one person sees as the best, some one else sees as pure CRAP. So if you have opinion on anything please share.

At the same time, if a opinion of someone else is diffrent than yours, stop reading and move on, or read on and learn something good or bad.

John
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Lizzard- The man was just expressing his opinion on his scope no need to bust his balls and force him to provide documentation of his credentials and experiences related to optics LOL.

Whew! Man nothing gets panties twisted around here quicker than talking glass it's fucking amazing

Marc
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MarcS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Whew! Man nothing gets panties twisted around here quicker than talking glass it's fucking amazing
</div></div>

Ain't that the truth!
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I was kinda thinkin the same thing. I think it would be good for Chris to come out and help clear the air. For two former employees of PH to be talking this kinda sheet, it does make you wonder what's going on at the company. I do hope all's well for all parties. </div></div>

To the best of my knowledge, I've only seen one of them bad-mouthing his former employer and his name doesn't begin with J.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Well impressed to see the boss of PR get on the line and do the washing and ironing to straighten out a few ruffled shirts !
I only know of one scope down in New Zealand made by Premier and I believe its owner loves it .It is great to see the GOOD & the BAD when reading these threads .All things manufactured have problems some times -some have emdemic problems that are never fixed in the production process -it seems the PR is not one of these !! Great glass obviously !! tracking is certainly most important -they appear to have a good rep -have many people had problems with tracking none or just a few ? as we know its percentages -make enough good ones you,ll get a couple of uncooperative ones .i am thinking about changing my 5.5x22 NF for a S&B 5X25 because they have a good history and are great scopes -Premier I am considering also even if they make some parts in kung fu land- hell they,re the ones with the wicked brand new machinery for manufacturing components and just cause they mastered making shit does,nt mean they cant kick arse making high quality widgets-as much as I HATE IT
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I don't have a dog in this fight, never owned or used a PH scope, but they seem to be solid for the most part and when problems have come up PH seems to handle them really well.

That said, the only reason people and companies downplay the lack of USA sourced parts is because if people knew how much of it wasn't sourced in the USA customers would be upset, period and those companies know it would hurt their business. Call it confidential if you want, or not worth your time/trouble to get into but if it was very few to no outsourced parts, a company would just come clean about it. If it was 100% sourced in the USA (probably near impossible) it would be part of their advertising big time whatever company accomplished it would be singing that fact to the high heavens. Hell even if it was 95% sourced in the USA it would be major positive advertising.

If there was a scope 100% sourced in the USA, you can bet the company the owners would be pushing that fact as often and as hard as they could. In cases that don't meet that criteria (no scope I know of does) companies and owners of course are going to try and downplay the significance of it not being USA made and sourced and avoid discussing the issue.

In addition to that, I will also say that just because it's 100% sourced in America doesn't mean it's a great product, no shortage of crap is made right here. On the flip side all sorts of great products are made other places, optics is certainly one of those. Some of the best optics in the world are made outside the USA. So just being or not being made in the USA does not have much to do with quality or lack of it.

So while I certainly feel there are lots of great optics choices that are not 100% USA made. On the flip side to that I also think people's unwillingness to support USA made and sourced products in order to save some $ are one of the major reasons our economy is where it is. That fact of customers willing to sacrifice supporting USA made products to save a few bucks has allowed companies to get away with outsourcing on a major scale to maximize profits.

After all when was the last time you saw a company outsource and drop it's prices....never happens, but profits go up big time the more items are outsourced for the most part. If customers would send a message by refusing to purchase the majority of outsourced and imported goods companies would have to get in line and source things here in the USA on a larger scale.


 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shaggyback</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I literally just got off the phone with PH. I was told:

Assembled in VA

Glass is from Europe

Some parts are sourced from Taiwan.

Frankly, if the glass works for you, looks good when you look through it, and is as tough as what Ive seen, then who cares where a few parts are made?

I dont see it as a reason for concern, much less panic or selling off the scope or anything else.

<span style="font-weight: bold">We're not talking about an NC Star here guys...</span>

JMHO </div></div>
Great
shocked.gif
! Are you telling me there is something wrong with NcStar. Please dont keep this one a secret also. Inquiring minds need to know.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I'm not trying to hijack this thread but if there are issues with tracking how does any scope get out of the factory? I would think that quality checks would include a tracking test and the data would be included with the scope ie. MOA or MILs per click.

I've looked through a PH 5-25 and it had the best glass that I have seen.

Jim
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


</div></div>

I can think of one such scope that fits that bill....
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


</div></div>

who said the savings weren't passed on......it could be that those same parts might rise the price 3-400 if produced here.

Take the Hensoldt for instance. "IF" everything in that scope IS made in Germany you see the price of 3400+/- as compared to nightforce, premier, at around 2500+/- or Vortex at 2k....savings passed on.

If you want a less expensive scope there are a couple that will fit you budget. If you want brand X you pay what brand X charges
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


</div></div>

I can think of one such scope that fits that bill.... </div></div>
Come now Hunter, you want to have "Parts outsourced Redux"?

Or were you stirring the pot for fun?
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magnumdood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


</div></div>

I can think of one such scope that fits that bill.... </div></div>
Come now Hunter, you want to have "Parts outsourced Redux"?

Or were you stirring the pot for fun? </div></div>

Nah, wasn't stirring the pot this time. I don't have a problem if parts are high quality. But, yeah it's nice when the savings are passed along. I like getting performance on par with the big boys for a lil less. I wasn't try to start a pissing contest between MY favorite scope and the Heritage. I was jus' sayin'
grin.gif
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I wasn't try to start a pissing contest between MY favorite scope and the Heritage. I was jus' sayin'
grin.gif
</div></div>
C'mon Hunter...tell that one to the next newb who wanders on the thread.
grin.gif
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

LOL, I don't like to cause REAL drama on the boards. But, if it's gonna be funny, hell yeah I'll stir the pot. YES please let some newbs find their way here, I seem to have a love/hate relationship with those lil bastards.
laugh.gif
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I too <span style="font-weight: bold">don't</span> have a dog in this fight, <span style="font-weight: bold">yet</span>. But I will submit, that from the <span style="text-decoration: underline">MANY</span> threads that I've read about ya'll's pissing and moaning about who's is the bestest and mostest goodest, I have a thought.

Considering the clarity, trackability, warrantability, servicibility, time-en-routeability, and any other "ity" out there, it seems that it's darn near boiling down to one super-dooper Certified Operator fact:

Which one has the best outer surface, (stock), which requires the least amount of <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">prep-work</span></span> for the IR resistant stealth camo job that will be applied. I mean really, how much scuffing does it require for the paint to adhere, is the key. Let's get down to the <span style="color: #996633">brass tacks</span> here.

Or, we can go on another ride on the merry-go-round. This topic has come up before. And before that.




And before that.




and before that too.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Or, we can go on another ride on the merry-go-round. This topic has come up before. And before that.




And before that.




and before that too.
</div></div>

It'll come up again.





And after that.






And after that.







And after that too.




As long as these optical experts and engineers continue to develop better, more reliable scopes, this topic will come up.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I think mcmillan is the best stock but im starting to think it is manners. yeah, yeah definitely manners.......right?
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


</div></div>

I can think of one such scope that fits that bill.... </div></div>

And that would be............?
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Taiwan is not China they don't produce pot metal crap and knockoffs. Products made in Taiwan are far closer in quality to stuff made in Japan than China. I don't hear anyone complaining about NF stuff being from Japan.

Taiwan's manufacturing base is not what it was 20 years ago either. Their modern exports consist mainly of semiconductors, laptops and other complex electronic parts which are of known good quality. Taiwan has also always been one of the US's staunchest allies in that region.



</div></div>Taiwan is also a fellow democracy, not a communist dictatorship.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Taiwan is not China they don't produce pot metal crap and knockoffs. Products made in Taiwan are far closer in quality to stuff made in Japan than China. I don't hear anyone complaining about NF stuff being from Japan.

Taiwan's manufacturing base is not what it was 20 years ago either. Their modern exports consist mainly of semiconductors, laptops and other complex electronic parts which are of known good quality. Taiwan has also always been one of the US's staunchest allies in that region.



</div></div>As you stated the Taiwanese products are close to Japanese! That to me says Japanese is better and that could be the reason why most don't complain about NF? If you are interested in a nice Rolex at a great price let me know; just don't pay that much attention to the "second hand"!
grin.gif
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you are interested in a nice Rolex at a great price let me know; just don't pay that much attention to the "second hand"!
grin.gif
</div></div>

I had one of those too Turk. Traded it off to a guy to take my watch while in Sydney. Well worth it
wink.gif
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Which came first? American companies being forced to outsource products just in order to be competitive due to increased government manufacturing regulations, or outsourcing just to be profitable? I think today, especially in our political and economical climate, if a company could boast "American made" and really mean it, and be competitive, they certainly would. I doubt if anyone is making the kinds of profits you're imagining on these products, and certainly couldn't be competitive and still make enough profit to stay in business by keeping the manufacturing in this country.
I'm also recognising that we as Americans need to be willing to pay a little more, if that's what it takes, for our "own" products if we want to survive in this current socioeconomic climate. The job you save may be your own.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magnumdood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hunter223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JLM ®</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd echo what Todd said.

It's not so much that parts are outsourced overseas, as long as they are a quality part.

What galls me is that the cost savings from outsourcing said parts is not passed on to the consumer. 2000 dollar scopes with internals from China and Taiwan? You can't tell me that there is not a significant cost savings as a result of that outsourcing, but it sure as hell isn't reflected in the price of things. Not that I'm asking for 'scope socialism' or anything, I'll leave that to the CIC
wink.gif


</div></div>
I can think of one such scope that fits that bill.... </div></div>
Come now Hunter, you want to have "Parts outsourced Redux"?

Or were you stirring the pot for fun? </div></div>

Nah, wasn't stirring the pot this time. I don't have a problem if parts are high quality. But, yeah it's nice when the savings are passed along. I like getting performance on par with the big boys for a lil less. I wasn't try to start a pissing contest between MY favorite scope and the Heritage. I was jus' sayin'
grin.gif
</div></div>
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I don't think it's just manufacturing regulations. There are a host of companies that you know are making a lot of money, but still end up outsourcing and even only over the past few years.

Leupold for one, who no longer has enough USA based production to call their scopes Made in the USA. You know for decades Leupold has been making money and a lot of it. Just now that they outsource most of the scope they can make more. Arcteryx the same way, they sell $500 jackets, used to be made in Canada a few years ago they started shipping the production to China, quality has suffered (though it's still better than most on the market, but it's not what it was) you know profits had to go through the roof when they did it, but the jacket prices have not changed at all.

However, that's a free market, they can make goods where they want, I really don't have a problem with a company trying to make money or more money.

The problem is that we as Americans no longer care about American made products or quality, we no longer care about supporting American jobs (which indirectly is supporting our own jobs). All we care about as a whole is getting the cheapest goods cheaper. Walmart is the perfect example. Everyone knows that walmart doesn't treat it's employees well, they hurt other businesses, they never have enough checkout people, it's a miserable shopping experience, etc. etc. yet they are packed busy 24/7 all day every day. People will forget about and put up with all those things just to save a couple bucks.

Mostly I blame consumers, if they would regain their honor and integrity and start sending businesses a message by not supporting such practices I guarantee it would stop and stop FAST. Companies want to make money, you cut their profits and they will do whatever they need to in order to regain them. It's exactly that reason that companies can't/won't bring out more expensive USA made products, they already know that the American consumer as a whole will not pay more for a USA made product, all they care about is what's cheapest.

People are happy to send items back multiple times to companies that make some of the highest paid goods that should have been built right the first time. People don't care they are being used as alpha and beta testers for products that should have been tested properly before they were brought to market. They just take it, pay for it, and sing the company praises about how good the customer service is. Never mind they shouldn't have had to use it in the first place. It's up to us as consumers to send the message with our $, until that happens it's only going to get worse and make no mistake it's going to get worse.



 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Todd, I agree w/ just about everything except the Leupold part!
Most of all the "Gold Ring" and above are still made here!
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem is that we as Americans no longer care about American made products or quality, we no longer care about supporting American jobs (which indirectly is supporting our own jobs). All we care about as a whole is getting the cheapest goods cheaper.</div></div>
I don't think you'll ever see any change here Todd...ever.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Magnumdood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The problem is that we as Americans no longer care about American made products or quality, we no longer care about supporting American jobs (which indirectly is supporting our own jobs). All we care about as a whole is getting the cheapest goods cheaper.</div></div>
I don't think you'll ever see any change here Todd...ever. </div></div>Not with thinking like that. I can tell you personally that I'm changing my thinking every day, It's definitely a work in progress, but it has to be done. I'm no longer thinking about what's the cheapest or least expensive option, but more, which option is going to benefit me and my fellow Americans in the long run. Where is the money I'm spending going, and who is it supporting? I'm a contractor, and I can tell you that who I hire these days requires a completely different mind set than even 6 mos. ago. We better start sticking together.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Turk,

Actually Leupold no longer qualifies to put "Made in the USA" on their products or their packaging. Go look at some new leupold boxes/scopes you won't find that statement anywhere. It's because so many parts assemblies are made overseas now they cannot legally do it. I haven't seen it on any of their stuff since about 2005-2006. Someone in an earlier thread pushed leopold customer service on the reason for this and was given that reason. You can bet if they qualified to put Made in the USA on their products they would cause it's still a big selling point.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1119938&page=3

Leupold Rep countered with they decided to remove the Made in USA due to a CA suit of Leatherman for importing assemblies/parts and marking their products made in the USA. I think that's side stepping, if they met the legal definition to label their products as made here they would have nothing to worry about.

We may not see such a wide change, and I agree it will probably never happen. Which is sad these days it consumers have NO idea how much power they have and it's easier than ever with the internet to get the word out to people. These days people are just willing to sacrifice integrity and the good of the country if it saves them a couple bucks to they can have an Iphone and a new truck every year. I've been guilty of this as well but I'm being more active in inquiring where things I'm buying are made and if I don't like the answer trying to find a USA made product to support. Trying to support local business instead of walmart who treat their employees well and provide good service even if it costs more. If companies get the point that people want USA made gear and are willing to pay a bit more for it as long as the quality is there, companies will fall in line.

You might support a few jobs and people buying from US companies that outsource but how much of that $ ends up overseas instead of going to USA manufacturing. Sometimes a little isolationism isn't a horrible thing. Though the way the dollar is going we might soon be the next china for other companies to outsource to.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People are happy to send items back multiple times to companies that make some of the highest paid goods that should have been built right the first time. People don't care they are being used as alpha and beta testers for products that should have been tested properly before they were brought to market. They just take it, pay for it, and sing the company praises about how good the customer service is. Never mind they shouldn't have had to use it in the first place. It's up to us as consumers to send the message with our $, until that happens it's only going to get worse and make no mistake it's going to get worse.</div></div>

Amen, everytime I hear about how "Company X" has the most awesome customer service, the Baby Jesus cries.

The best type of Customer Service is never having to use it.

If you are in the Mountains of Dirka-Dirkastan and your scope breaks can you just send it in to Leupold? No? I thought so.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

i guess i am getting to this party a bit late but can someone clarify for me. I saw Chris's post on page 3 explaining who wasnt with the company any longer. Is Trigger Monkey one of the 2 guys he mentioned? I see that TM deleted all his posts but not before several folks quoted them. I will also agree with Todd that if the part content wasnt something they were ashamed of, they would post it. Quality is quality, no matter where its made. Hiding behind the the "nun-ya" phrase only perpetuates the issue. The best way to address claimes of former employees is to deal with them head on and truthfully. Unless, of course, their claims are true....
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

My hats off to Premier. They are using top shelf glass, and they have advanced the tactical scope market through some very cool innovations. They are coming out with new features in keeping a pulse on what the modern shooting community wants. And they are offering it at a competitve price while still supplying US citizens with jobs.

In my opinion more US companies could learn from this. Not to get too off topic but look at some of the car companies in this country. They have regurgitated the same technology from the past 60yrs and have failed to change with the modern world. The US 'rivals' over seas are producing vehicles at a fair price that are leaps and bounds ahead of the technology we have. Look at leupold. The US needs to wake up and start using their minds to push the envelope.

There is a fundamental truth in business. You have to out think or out cheap your competition. People will never stop wanting things cheaper so we have to out think the competition. I feel Premier has done this with a competitive priced scope that rivals its Euro counter parts and I say GOOD FOR THEM!
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes



Go ahead and ask COKE what is in their product, or even KFC and what spices they use. Microsoft will sue you into the Stone Age if you are caught snooping into their software construction to see how it works (or doesn’t). This list could go on for a long time. The bottom line is, it really is NUN-YA!

The general public doesn't NEED TO KNOW the secret ingredients of what they buy. If you have a problem with a product, just don't buy it.

I paid big bucks for my PH and I really don’t care what makes it tick. It is what it is, a fine scope that will serve me well and do it a cut above the rest of the pack. If they meet “Made in USA” or “MIL Spec” that’s a bonus.



On the Made in USA topic
I have been known to shop at Wally World but if a “Stay Away Day” was started you know that we all could participate and the show of force would catch the attention of just about every Big Box store that has gone over to the Dark Side.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Badger M2008, made in America, oh I have a problem with my Gen 1 action. Marty well send it right in and I will upgrade it to Gen 2 for free.

Marty has never told me nun-yah, when I had a question about his product.

Parker Hale (John Rothery Company) outsourced their bipods for AI to Asia. I stopped importing them and the new importer kept the price at about $300 USD, when it is actually pretty much a VersaPod.

Most of AI product is outsourced to who knows, because they will not tell you. The AI AW series works and is a great weapon, but they are not the end all be all that some people make them out to be.

Springfield Armory supplements most of the small parts for the M1A'S, less action and barrel with Norinco parts, they will not tell you which ones though. I asked was told Nun-yah, I told them to FOAD and not to expect anymore business.

We have a choice about the purchases we make. Some of us will make our stand and others will not. This site has 30,000 members, can you imagine the economic impact of that if we stood together...just saying.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rnd1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Go ahead and ask COKE what is in their product, or even KFC and what spices they use. Microsoft will sue you into the Stone Age if you are caught snooping into their software construction to see how it works (or doesn’t). This list could go on for a long time. The bottom line is, it really is NUN-YA!
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There's a huge difference between ingredients in a recipe for food, or program code than wanting to know WHERE things are manufactured they aren't even in the same ballpark, it's not even the same topic. You are talking about trying to backwards engineer a product by gaining knowledge into it's proprietary ingredients or specifications. That has as much to do with WHERE it's made as a Slurpee at 7-11 does.

Personally I think the whole ex-employee thing is none of our business. However, I do think customers have a right to know WHERE things are made. I completely agree they don't have a right to know how they are made or the specifications to proprietary parts, no one has even hinted at that. If a company won't tell you where it's made or what % is USA made -vs- outsourced, you can bet you wouldn't like it if you knew. Otherwise they'd just tell you, period, it's that simple.

You can say supporting companies in the US that outsource manufacturing is supporting USA jobs and it is, but on a small scale. How many more USA jobs would that $ support if the entire product was USA made, not just assembled by a very few US employees from a bunch of parts built by many many more employees from other countries.

The Stay Away Day idea won't work, it's been tried before, there has to be at least 10 "national....day/week" things that has to do with not buying or saving gas. National bike to work week, National ride share week, National no-gas day, etc. It won't even make them blink. All those things do is make people feel good as if they are making a difference for one day a year. It has to be on a large scale and consistent to make any impact.

To me it has NOTHING to do with product quality. Lots of great products are not made in the USA. The best cameras, lenses, skis, hiking boots, climbing gear, TVs, cars, etc. etc are not made in the USA. It has to do with wanting to support USA jobs, because at the end of the day sending our money overseas for goods, even if it's a percentage of the total of it due to outsourced manufacturing, comes out of Americans pockets one way or another. Because people can't see the instant impact of it on their paycheck, they don't give a shit about it, it's pathetic.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ToddM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">People are happy to send items back multiple times to companies that make some of the highest paid goods that should have been built right the first time. People don't care they are being used as alpha and beta testers for products that should have been tested properly before they were brought to market. They just take it, pay for it, and sing the company praises about how good the customer service is. Never mind they shouldn't have had to use it in the first place. It's up to us as consumers to send the message with our $, until that happens it's only going to get worse and make no mistake it's going to get worse.</div></div>


I got one of the first 200 Heritages. Mine came with mushy clicks out of the box. It took 3 trips to the factory to get the clicks right. PR is now shipping detents out to customers to repair themselves. In the Mushy clicks thread it was noted that all 15Mil single turns and 27Mil double turns through serial number 700 were affected.

I like my Heritage for it's features. I think it's a great tactical scope, but I won't be buying anymore. I didn't pay over 2 grand to test a scope. I paid premium for what should be premium quality glass. Out of the box.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

Mushy is actually a poor term for the "slightly less than perfect" feel of the original offerings.

I have heard really good thing about them post upgrade. My upgrade parts should arrive this week.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luvman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I like my Heritage for it's features. I think it's a great tactical scope, but I won't be buying anymore. I didn't pay over 2 grand to test a scope. I paid premium for what should be premium quality glass. Out of the box. </div></div>

I've seen $3500 S&B's come with CW knobs on CCW assemblies, I've seen S&B's go plain tits up, I've seen USO's fail, I've seen PR's fail, I've seen IOR's fail. Honestly, I haven't personally seen a rear focus Super Sniper fail-does that mean they are better than the above? Uh, no.

Everything can break, and if PR produced enough scopes for in house testing that the click improvement would have been found to be necessary, where do you think that cost would have gone? I was happy to put new clickers in my Heritage to be able to have an S&B rival for a grand less.......
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And I thought you were easy on the Koolaid! </div></div>

I'll definately post any problems I run into with my Premier, but its been good to me so far.
Like I said, I have seen them go down in use, so they aren't above reproach.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

It can't take that many prototype scopes to say "Hey these knobs are mushy compared to S&B, NF, etc. I would imagine the company and most testers would have experience with and access to samples of other high end scopes in order to compare them and recognize that issue quickly.

Testing won't catch everything, certainly if you have an issue that shows up only on the big rifles and after hundreds of rounds that might slip through. Same is true for a bad batch of metal, or springs. They start off fine, but over time or in extreme use fail. That's understandable you can't test every possible condition. That's the very rare exception though, most of these issues we see are things that should be caught in testing if even a small sample of the product was tested in the field significantly. They are widespread and affect a lot of customers not just a random one here and there, we're talking about a HUGE percentage of customers who buy the product. These are not 1% or less of the product issues.

Perhaps they just didn't think it was a big deal until they got feedback from a lot of unhappy owners that the clicks were not distinct enough. This certainly isn't premier's first scope experience, they've been working on scopes for years, they know the difference between solid and mushy clicks.

When you have something like click feel, or a problem where most of the early owners are having the issue quickly and under wide circumstances proper product testing should have caught it. Case in point the M2008 Gen I where a huge % of Gen I owners, myself included (and every one I know of with a Gen I) had problems with failures to fire due to multiple action issues. Badger took care of them, replaced springs and redesigned the bolt cocking piece for longer travel. Customer service was great, the issue was handled quickly. The bottom line is, that I don't see how proper field testing would not have caught that problem either.

Most people at this price/quality level would be happy to pay an extra 10% on the price if it meant the product was right the FIRST time. Instead of being sent back multiple times to address issues that should never have been on a production model in the first place.

It exactly why I won't buy a product it's first year on the market anymore, and I won't listen to reviews anymore either. There are way too many of these problems cropping up lately on products that get glowing reviews. Last time I checked these companies are not paying me to do their testing and quality control for them and I'm sure as hell not going to pay them to do it for them anymore.

I do however thank all you other guys doing their product testing for them though, that way after a couple years when the product is what it should have been the first time I can buy it without the hassle and headaches of being their alpha and beta testers.
smile.gif
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

ToddM, do you have a Premier?

I'd imagine not, because the clicks prior to the improvement were not "mushy" at all. The .1 clicks were softer and due to the nature of having 15 mil per revolution they are close together.
Having a stronger click at the whole mils led to a problem of hitting the .1 and .2 marks when going up, or the .9 and .8 marks going down without overshooting them.

Let me ask you this, do you consider Leupold's M1 turrets to have mushy clicks? If not then there is no way the PR's could be considered soft at all, as they were more distinct prior to the improvement than the MK4 M1s are.

I'd say that prior to installing "the fix" the 15mil DT's tenth-mil clicks felt about the same as my USO #3 turrets, and after "the fix" they are crisper.
 
Re: PR Heritage Scopes

I'll try to explain mushy.

I got my scope on a Friday. Out of the box the .1 clicks were not very distinct. After 1 range session and playing with the knobs for 2 days the .1 clicks were almost gone. You could barely tell they were there and you'd slide right past them. Dialing dope meant lining up the marks. MTC clicks were good. The next Tuesday (4 days later) it was on it's way back to premier.

don't get me wrong. I love the scope. I like the feature set and placement of the controls better than any scope on the market. well except I bought a 27mil DT with XR and I've traded it for a 15mil ST with Gen2.

Both scopes have tracked great and of course have awesome glass. the clicks on the DT are a touch better than the ST (it's been massaged at the factory 3 times). But the ST clicks are solid and distinct.
 
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