I'm equally impressed with that combination metal spork/can opener ration tool, sir! Very nice.Great stuff but I feel for you. I recently had a similar experience
I was on a streak with all these barn find old new stock rifles and than it happened…….. poorly listed item with only one pic but after a long phone conversation I was assured by one of the dealer personal that the gun was lightly used and well maintained …… ya figure how bad could a 308 be
The whole deal started bad …. The rifle got lost for 10 days. USPS is very bad these days
They first told me it was shipped …. Than I was told it was at my FFL ….. than I was told fed ex accidentally picked it up with a USPS label and they were holding it. Miraculously it arrived on day 11 and was packaged poorly and the box was beat up
Upon inspection the gun was beat to shit. Damaged crown …. Chamber looked like it was worked on with a power drill and a wire brush. The barrel was badly pitted . I dont think they ever cleaned the barrel …. The copper ran out of it and exposed a shot rifle
The bore scope made me sick. I immediately had my ffl overnight it back UPS the way a gun should be shipped called them in the am and said the gun would be back to them by 10 am and i expected a refund bt 12
Even though they said all sales were final and no refunds Amex confirmed a refund shortly after noon
If the guy didn’t represent the rifle completely opposite of what it was i would not have been so pissed
Amazes me of how people treat a good gun
I was glad I did a few days later I found a 26 inch barrel the first was 20 digi cam rifle that was never shot and i am impressed it wants to shoot
I commend you on the project
Hah as mentioned no barrel on there, but it’s CDG, Manners NS, BnA Tacsport Pro, Mbrace mount, 4.5-28 March, 14” 6creed - 18” 6.5x47 being chambered as we speak.
Sig Cross 6.5cm set up for sportsman class of PRS, coming in .5lbs under weight limit. currently set up with some extra stuff I had around from other/past rifles so its subject to change over the coming months.
Currently
Vortex Venom 5-25
PA Hypertap brake
Atlas Bipod
Salmon River short arca/pic section
cheapo S2 rifle weights
weighted bag rider and large bolt knob off a sig cross PRS
and a 3d printed dope card holder
Currently
Vortex Venom 5-25
PA Hypertap brake
Atlas Bipod
Salmon River short arca/pic section
cheapo S2 rifle weights
weighted bag rider and large bolt knob off a sig cross PRS
and a 3d printed dope card holder
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Love the setup! Where did you find the file for the 3D printed dope card holder?
Picked up a rifle built by Gary at Paramount Tactical Solutions. They just started building custom guns. I went in with my wife to grab some shooting and introduce the new puppies and saw this on the wall.. It really stood out to me and my wife looked at me and said I should get it... (wife of the year award finalist for sure).
Specs:
Defiance Ruckus SA SS action (90*)
6.5 Creed Bartlien barrel
MPA DN5 Break
Trigger Tech Diamond
Woox Furiosa Ultra Chassis (REALLY LOVE THIS)
I immediately threw my 840 ZCO with the MCT-3 reticle on there... with a spare Accutec Bipod I had laying around.
This is one of the nicest rifles I have shot and my new favorite. I don't own a 90* throw outside my Berghara hunter. This was the smoothest action I have ever used and it was getting smoother throughout the day. I didn't notice real difference in the bolt throw form my ARC and Faxon builds. I might be addicted to shooting this rifle...
Great groups with Hornady 147 ELDM factory, and my first load I tried w/42.8 grains of Staball and Berger 140s (def pulled the last shot). Going to explore that one with some seating depth changes (was loaded to 4 thousandths off lands and probably going to bring it to 2 thousands and try it out). Im thinking 1/4 inch MOA is def in the cards with this build.
Specs:
Defiance Ruckus SA SS action (90*)
6.5 Creed Bartlien barrel
MPA DN5 Break
Trigger Tech Diamond
Woox Furiosa Ultra Chassis (REALLY LOVE THIS)
I immediately threw my 840 ZCO with the MCT-3 reticle on there... with a spare Accutec Bipod I had laying around.
This is one of the nicest rifles I have shot and my new favorite. I don't own a 90* throw outside my Berghara hunter. This was the smoothest action I have ever used and it was getting smoother throughout the day. I didn't notice real difference in the bolt throw form my ARC and Faxon builds. I might be addicted to shooting this rifle...
Great groups with Hornady 147 ELDM factory, and my first load I tried w/42.8 grains of Staball and Berger 140s (def pulled the last shot). Going to explore that one with some seating depth changes (was loaded to 4 thousandths off lands and probably going to bring it to 2 thousands and try it out). Im thinking 1/4 inch MOA is def in the cards with this build.
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Here's my latest. DT SRS A1. In left handed.
Both 308 and 65 gaymoor.
Doc
Both 308 and 65 gaymoor.
Doc
I have home repairs taking priority now. Otherwise, I would probably be getting a Desert Tech SRS M2 in 338LM.
So damn your eyes for showing that rifle porn!
Not sure if I've posted this one here or not.
Rem XR-100 in 308. Rather uncommon I guess, as it was a Gander Mountain exclusive. I got it there on clearance for $600. Aside from having a butt pad installed for more LOP, it's bone stock. Shoots lights out. A buddy, who's a decent shooter btw, said that 2 of his best 3 groups ever were shot with this rifle.
I've thought about having it threaded, but really don't want to take a chance on messing it up. The only other thing is I prefer 2-stage triggers, but this is pretty nice for a single stage.
Not cherry picked, just and average group I shot.
Rem XR-100 in 308. Rather uncommon I guess, as it was a Gander Mountain exclusive. I got it there on clearance for $600. Aside from having a butt pad installed for more LOP, it's bone stock. Shoots lights out. A buddy, who's a decent shooter btw, said that 2 of his best 3 groups ever were shot with this rifle.
I've thought about having it threaded, but really don't want to take a chance on messing it up. The only other thing is I prefer 2-stage triggers, but this is pretty nice for a single stage.
Not cherry picked, just and average group I shot.
i wanted to try a Bergara action
Put it in an AI stock
It did not like my pet 169 smk load but its trying with factor 168 fed
when i looked at the barrel with my borescope I was surprised how rough the barrel is
Put it in an AI stock
It did not like my pet 169 smk load but its trying with factor 168 fed
when i looked at the barrel with my borescope I was surprised how rough the barrel is
Bergara hmr 300prc
Dnt the one 7-35
Talley msr rings (temp)
Otter creek labs polonium 30.
First time owning a magnum.
Shoots softer than my 444marlin or ruger no1 45-70. About on par with my 284win.
Looking to get the 308 version today.
Eventually I want to send it off to pva for a m24 contour barrel.
Dnt the one 7-35
Talley msr rings (temp)
Otter creek labs polonium 30.
First time owning a magnum.
Shoots softer than my 444marlin or ruger no1 45-70. About on par with my 284win.
Looking to get the 308 version today.
Eventually I want to send it off to pva for a m24 contour barrel.
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Gary doesn’t build guns. He contracts gunsmiths to do the work then charges you a premium to put his name on someone else’s work.
Find a real gunsmith to build your gun not this guy. List of real gunsmiths who know things:
LRI
Alex Wheeler
Altus
He also apparently charges you $200 for 30 minutes of his time for build consultation (prior to building), or to troubleshoot ideas to you over the phone.
I know what combination of 8 parts will work together too.His business, he can run it how he wants.
I guess I just got lucky to be able to call and BS with an actual gunsmith (lathes etc... included) for a half hour at a time with no extra charges. Not that I enjoy taking up his time as I know that it is money, but he was happy to volunteer it.
Enough dog piling for me for the day.
He also apparently charges you $200 for 30 minutes of his time for build consultation (prior to building), or to troubleshoot ideas to you over the phone.
His business, he can run it how he wants.
I guess I just got lucky to be able to call and BS with an actual gunsmith (lathes etc... included) for a half hour at a time with no extra charges. Not that I enjoy taking up his time as I know that it is money, but he was happy to volunteer it.
Enough dog piling for me for the day.
What a schmuck. Ever since I saw him trying to install a scope on a rifle in a bog mount tripod I was very aware this guy had no idea what he’s talking about - and has the nerve to charge customers for that level of work……. $150 to be exact (https://www.paramounttactical.com/product/scope-mounting-service/)
Everyone should click on the link above and checkout that picture. Table full of disorganized tools, Tipton vise for leveling a scope, and a gun with bolt forward flagging his “students”. What a masterpiece - he actually selected this photo to make himself look cool.
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$200 for thirty minutes. He must have been a Harvard graduated lawyer in a former life.He also apparently charges you $200 for 30 minutes of his time for build consultation (prior to building), or to troubleshoot ideas to you over the phone.
His business, he can run it how he wants.
I guess I just got lucky to be able to call and BS with an actual gunsmith (lathes etc... included) for a half hour at a time with no extra charges. Not that I enjoy taking up his time as I know that it is money, but he was happy to volunteer it.
Enough dog piling for me for the day.
Thailand has people you can make MUCH better use of $200 and you get more for your money... just sayin...
This is funny… you know lawyers make around 1200 an hour now for most higher-level corp work? Heck I'm a cybersecurity consultant. At my level its about 400-600 an hour. But there is the fact that he can charge that much. There is a reason he does. He most likely has people making those appointments, or he wouldn't have it as an option. For a place called Snipers Hide its funny people are piling on an actual Special Forces Sniper… says a lot.
Gary has started building these rifles in conjunction with a gunsmith he knows. This rifle shoots. If I bought these parts separately and put them together it would have cost me more money then what I paid. Atlas it is about 400-500 more then the parts purchased separately… so don't know where this hot take is coming from. Gary has always been great to deal with and stands behind everything he sells and recommends to an extreme degree. He is very knowledgeable and callls himself out when he is mistaken on something. He takes extreme ownership of his products and advice. I would recommend doing business with him over any company I have dealt with in the past.
That doesn’t alleviate him from doing stupid shit. You’d also be surprised at how much more accessibility and knowledge there is in the civilian space. Valeyo speaks to this frequently
Yeah…… Something doesn’t add up there. Post rifle and invoice and we’ll help you out
Is he going to call himself out for leveling scopes on a tripod and Tipton instead of properly on a badger or sac device? What about flagging students with a closed bolt in a class? Picture above for proof
For scope leveling Gary has several how to videos, and recommends doing it yourself. He charges 150$ if you don't trust that you can do it properly. Its a service… that some people pay for, as for the picture.. Its staged obviously and I do agree that he shouldn't have a rifle flagging someone even if it is unloaded. I've used his suggestions and guidance to great success and my wife has as well (she wanted to do it herself..).
I want to be sure about this post. It sounds like you are offering to help me out with basic math. I do not want to take this as condescending. So I would like to be sure.
On the subject of scope mounting, he does use the Final Scope Level from SAC. The point is to teach a method to others that aren't going to have a 245 dollar device to level their scope, but might have a Tipton or Tripod and do it in a way that is effective without having the specialized equipment.
Charging someone $150 or making a video to level a scope on a rifle in a tipton or bog grip on a tripod is the issue.
I’m just curious how you think the assembled rifle cost less than the sum of the parts at retail
Just an old country boy from the Deep South, were time moves slow and $$ can be hard to come by at times.
so, as other’s have implied, 400 an hour I suppose is not that much. But, I think I’ll stick with what GOD gave me to make those kinds of decisions. A Brain.
so, as other’s have implied, 400 an hour I suppose is not that much. But, I think I’ll stick with what GOD gave me to make those kinds of decisions. A Brain.
I don't get the hate for how he levels his scope, the turret cap is a greater source of error than that tipton vise.
My only gripe with the dude is that he charges that much to level a scope for someone, and at that price I'd expect him level it to the actual turret adjustment, not just the cap which can easily be off by quite a bit.
Also find all the manly man tacticool tough guys insufferable f*****s.
My only gripe with the dude is that he charges that much to level a scope for someone, and at that price I'd expect him level it to the actual turret adjustment, not just the cap which can easily be off by quite a bit.
Also find all the manly man tacticool tough guys insufferable f*****s.
If you’re going to charge people a badger or sac level device is the only acceptable way to level a scope.
Check this masterpiece:
Ok this makes more sense.
Here was my breakdown for the cost of the rifle verses the retail parts.
Ruckus Action (SS): $1545 https://defiancemachine.com/product/ruckus-rifle-action/#cartridge (free shipping on actions, 35 dollar FFL transfer)
Furiosa Ultra Chassis: $1748 w/ Hawkins bottom metal and recoil pad (extra $49)https://wooxstore.com/products/furiosa-ultra-prs-competition-chassis ($38 UPS ground shipping, cheapest option)
Triggertech Diamond: $324.99 https://triggertech.com/products/remington-700-single-stage-trigger-diamond?variant=41459721961590 ($14.99 standard, only option)
Bartlien Barrel: $480 for the blank https://www.bartleinbarrels.com/inventory-pricing (shipping from a dealer is various, so I will not add this and we can say I can get this locally from a gunsmith that can do the work and has a Bartlien in stock)
Chambering: $395 http://www.matchrifles.com/rates.html (same as above, I will just say I can get this locally done which saves me the cost of shipping the action to a smith and the shipping cost back)
Muzzle device (DN5): $199 https://masterpiecearms.com/shop/mpa-dn5-bolt-action-muzzle-brake-6mm-6-5mm/ (free shipping)
Together the parts with retail add up to $4,740.99. With sales tax (6% for WV) that is $5,025.45 Now we add shipping to all these parts. Shipping with FFL fee comes to $5113.43.
I paid $5182.00 out the door. So $68.56 more than I would have paid for retail and put it together myself (that is assuming I could find a local smith with bartlien barrels in stock which is a huge assumption) most likely I would have had added shipping to and from a gunsmith to chamber the barrel. Of course I could have the action shipped to the smith to cut down on the cost. So Im not including any of those steps. Those steps add time to this transaction. Which more than makes up for the $68.56 difference (this is my opinion).
When you mentioned that Gary contracts out to smiths... that is semi-true. He partnered with an old Special Forces Sniper friend named Emil Koven (http://www.matchrifles.com) and he does the chambering for all of his custom rifles. Gary has never said he does this himself but Paramount Custom Rifles is a joint product between Emil and Gary.
The most important thing though, is that this rifle shoots! I love this thing. I would buy another from Gary and probably will in the future.
As for the scope mounting. I mount all my scopes myself based on the guidance and lessons learned from those that share their experiences. I do it all the time now and am very comfortable doing it from a tripod with the proper techniques. I always do a tall target test and have only once had to go back and make adjustments. I don't own a scope mounting tool like the SAC or Badger, if you do, that's great! Use it and love it. I don't think it's nessassary and shoot out to 1450 yards. Maybe if I was going out to a mile or more I would make that investment, but I would rather spend my funds on more projectiles to send down range.
Gary's videos on the subject are great. You seem to be missing the point that those videos are based on the average person and what they have to do the job, not on a basis of how he does it in house for a paying customer. To some customers it's worth the $150 and Gary will stand by his work. This is especially true for those getting into long range shooting that happen to have the money and want to purchase a whole package with a scope mounted and level on their rifle.
Ok back to work.
Exactly. $400 an hour is a LOT of money though. I was just putting it into perspective for how much lawyers make now and some other fields. I grew up with nothing and had to miss meals and go without for long periods of time. Im not saying that it's not a lot of money. Im trying to make the point that to some people it is worth it to get that guidance. I personally have never had to pay for any advice or troubleshooting assistance from Gary. He is a good guy but his time is also lacking as it is for many people running a business. If he decides his time to assist someone on an issue is worth $400 and hour, there could be several economic principles at play for that decision. First, it's not his main source of income. Second, he has only a limited amount of time to set aside for this purpose. This gives supply and demand. The more expensive the service the LESS demand there will be. This would align with the time he has to put towards these interactions. It's the same thing for his scope mounting that people are complaining about. He's not saying that he is the best in the world at mounting scopes. It again it is a decision based on supply and demand. I remember a conversation I was having with him, he told me to mount the scope myself and look at his vids and other sources to figure it out, because he is not cheap. He wasn't trying to get me to purchase this service from him but encouraging me to learn and do it myself. This was a couple years ago and left me with a good impression of the man himself and his business. All those that are talking about him in a negative way are taking some photos and extrapolating in their minds who he is and what he is about. This is a false comparison and is logically fallacious.
Did you ask for defiance, dn5 and woox or did he recommend them?
Did you pay the consult fee?
I also suspect you didn’t pay sales tax on the gun since it crossed state lines. Which would have been true from a real gunsmith too.
No need to get riled up and not trying to argue, or saying he’s not a good man, just never in my life been charged by a gunsmith who will likely get the work, for some advice on what i need to purchase (from him). I have seen naval architects charging for consultation, but primarily to keep the folks that hang around and really don’t buy the services, from wasting time. Those same men, gladly answer legitimate questions without charge, when the request is truly legitimate.
Plenty of outstanding PROVEN gunsmiths, with decades of solid work that'll spend time on the phone with you to set things up how you'd want if one lacks the experience to make informed decisions... and they aren't going to charge you outside the cost of the rifle.
Moreso, they aren't going to charge you an excessive amount to slap together parts from various retailers and check headspace for you. Not trying to crap on anyone mentioned in the previous 15 posts, there just is a new trend in "rifle building" over the past five years or so. One can now put together a very competent setup without so much as a lathe or any other supporting machinery. You can't hate on a guy who is trying to capitalize on that.
let's face it. The incoming era of prefits and CNC tolerances has done away with the need of a lot of actual "gunsmithing". Either those gunsmiths are going to invest more time into manufacturing the parts themselves that can be assembled by any monkey with $300 of tools in his/her garage, or they are going to continue to thrive in a specific niche where their expertise and craftsmanship is still needed.
^ An example of the former would be any one of dozens of riflesmiths that now offer prefits out of their shop. An example of the latter would be businesses like KMW or TacOps, or GA Precision etc... etc... (I chose those three because they have both similar AND different clientele).
*****
In the end, it will be the consumers who will dictate what they want they find as their value proposition. I'd expect that some deviation will occur because of name recognition, targeted segment advertising, and even inexperience in some cases.
Blah, blah, blah... TLDR.
Moreso, they aren't going to charge you an excessive amount to slap together parts from various retailers and check headspace for you. Not trying to crap on anyone mentioned in the previous 15 posts, there just is a new trend in "rifle building" over the past five years or so. One can now put together a very competent setup without so much as a lathe or any other supporting machinery. You can't hate on a guy who is trying to capitalize on that.
let's face it. The incoming era of prefits and CNC tolerances has done away with the need of a lot of actual "gunsmithing". Either those gunsmiths are going to invest more time into manufacturing the parts themselves that can be assembled by any monkey with $300 of tools in his/her garage, or they are going to continue to thrive in a specific niche where their expertise and craftsmanship is still needed.
^ An example of the former would be any one of dozens of riflesmiths that now offer prefits out of their shop. An example of the latter would be businesses like KMW or TacOps, or GA Precision etc... etc... (I chose those three because they have both similar AND different clientele).
*****
In the end, it will be the consumers who will dictate what they want they find as their value proposition. I'd expect that some deviation will occur because of name recognition, targeted segment advertising, and even inexperience in some cases.
Blah, blah, blah... TLDR.
Yeah, some dude quasi-local to me is taking defiance actions, proof prefit barrels, triggertechs, & Mcmillan stocks, and he's basically charging $1,000 to aSsEmBLe the parts - meaning torquing the action to the barrel, pushing 2 trigger pins, and torquing 2 action screws. He's simply fleecing morons so that he can tell people he's in the industry when he's at matches. It's gross.
I mean, Elevation Rifles is slapping together already built Seekins rifles and Nightforce optics, and doing "load development"... and up-charging at least $1K for the packages he's selling.
Or, you can get a twice the price - just as nice Gunwerks rifle built for you too. The Davidsons are marketing geniuses though with their hunting videos.
Or, you can get a twice the price - just as nice Gunwerks rifle built for you too. The Davidsons are marketing geniuses though with their hunting videos.
I think there is some confusion here. In my original post I stated that I went into his shop and saw this one on the wall. I was not intending to purchase a rifle but have been thinking about a new build around the Woox chassis. I picked up the rifle and really liked it, it was one of his first Paramount Custom Rifle guns. I worked the action (never fired a Defiance before) and really liked the overall feel of the gun. My wife was like... you should get that. I thought she was joking and she was not... I ended up buying it and have no regrets. The action is fantastic and it's a tack driver. Those groups I posted were of the first rounds I put through it with one being a load development and the other is just factory 147 ELDMs. My original idea was to grab a Terminus Zeus and build on a Woox chassis, and I might do a Terminus on a KRG C4 next year. But that Defiance Action is super nice. I have 300 round down the pipe so far and am going to go take it out and do some PRS shooting this weekend for practice and to see how I like the Woox for things like barricade shooting. Also, I bought the gun in West Virginia where I live and there is no sales tax on firearm purchases here. I would have had to pay sales tax on the items that I purchase through the sites listed. You keep saying real gun smith... like Emil Koven isn't a real smith (the one that fit the barrel to the action and did the chambering).
I have bought several rifles from Gary (MPAs) and never had to pay a consult fee, not once. He is more than willing to have a conversation with customers on their needs and wants for their builds. Heck in all the times I've dealt with Gary he has never mentioned a consultation fee or that it was ever even an option. He will just give you his straight opinion on parts and various configurations.
Sorry if this is how you took that post. I was not riled up, my experience with Gary is that of your example of the Naval architects you discussed.
I'm glad you're happy with your gun. I would never recommend that someone go to him for a gun build or a class, though. There are plenty of more knowledgeable people (that don't point rifles at their students) and real gunsmiths that can build better guns.
And that is your prerogative. I would definitely recommend him based off of my first hand experiences with dealing with him and actually shooting the rifle he put together. As for better guns...Here are the two strings of 10 shot groups I shot last weekend from this rifle. These are the two loads I look to develop and close up a bit as well. I am very happy with .6" and .54" 10-shot strings. Now that this barrel has been broken in I can likely get these down to 1/3" 10-shot groups and 1/2" 20-shot groups. But we will see. When I first took this rifle out I was nailing a 10" gong at 960 yards (ranged with my Vector-Xs) with 147 ELDM factory ammo... I am very pleased.
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I've built two rifles with a clamp down vice on my kitchen table and they're both incredible shooters. Wasn't hard to do either. Anyone can do it with 3 you tube videos a wrench and a barrel vice and a vice clamp.
Now if I could just figure out how my scope turrets work that'd be the day.
Now if I could just figure out how my scope turrets work that'd be the day.
