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Rifle Scopes Premier or S&B

Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing new for a product that is being touted as the latest and greatest (especially by well-respected hide members) to have an uproar raised when anyone questions anything about said product.

There's been more than once that I dropped as much hard earned dough on something that I possibly could, and did so based on its reputation here only to find later that there were known drawbacks that were never really raised publicly.

Its a shame that this thread has turned this way, especially since the original question was a question of S&B and Premier.

Sad to see Scott getting his wrist slapped publicly for calling it as he saw it. I've seen and experienced nothing but a serious commitment by Scott to doing what he can to help 'hide members over the years. His full disclosure of issues as they arose with the SH IOR was very telling of what kind of person he is, let alone the fact that he got a scope prototyped and produced to "our" specifications by a manufacturer that has been recalcitrant to acknowledging the needs of the US practical shooting community up to that point.

I can't comment on HuDisCo as the only impression I have of their service and attitude has just been formed on this thread, and unless the economy turns around hard I won't be able to afford to try a Hensoldt for myself. </div></div>

You make a few good points here. I certainly would not want opinions made based on this thread alone. Keep in mind that Scott's original post has been altered and now appears more mild. These are the portions that originally struck a cord with me.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The answer may be quite complex, but right now the only conclusion I have is that either the Hensoldt scopes do not have true flourite optics in them, or the stuff they have in there is not doing its job for some reason. I'm leaning toward the latter. Either way, this is unacceptable in a scope at its price point, IMO.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LibertyOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At any rate, this has never been addressed with the Hensoldt scopes. As the truth does not fear investigation, I'm wondering what the answer is here.</div></div>

I suppose now that there is some history here that everyone is not aware of and this was probably not the place to air it. If this was truly a legitimate attempt by Scott to call it as he saw it then I am wrong in my initial assessment of him and apologize.

When I first read the post it struck me as a call out. If this was truly a concern, Scott has my number. I would have gladly explained this to him privately over the phone.

I have a great respect for the SnipersHide community and welcome legitimate questions.
 
Re: Premier or S&B

I don't think it is good business to bash anyone or product and then not "manup" to it! How did Hudisco get drug in to this any how? Scott writes some beautiful paragraphs at times but unfortunately they are not always complete! Perhaps an oversight in his part?
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Nathan's a good guy, I met him at the Cup. I just think he's passionate about his product and got a little carried away. We've all been passionate about stuff before and went off on a tangent... LOL
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Hiders,

To his credit, Nathan reached out to me with phone calls and I finally called him back and we cleared the air. I am accountable for my actions and there is no question I could have pursued my knowledge in a more diplomatic manner. I get "zero" style points for this. I do not want to harm HuDisCo nor Hensoldt; we are both "on the same team" in the big picture and I don't think this turned out good for either of us.

As you guys know, I respect passion for what someone is doing and I definitely respect someone who stands up for himself. There is absolutely NO animosity or grudge from me or LO toward Nathan Hunt, HuDisCo, Hensoldt or anyone who backs or supports these guys. I want to make that clear. We talked it out like men and credit to Nathan for taking that first step toward reconciliation.

I think it's apparent to outside observers that Nathan and I take our crafts quite seriously, and that is a good thing for the community here.

Nathan, look forward to shaking your hand at SHOT in Vegas, and if I have any questions or other concerns about Hensoldt products I'll be sure to pick up the phone from now on.

Thanks for your consideration, Hiders.

Scott
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think it is good business to bash anyone or product and then not "manup" to it! <span style="font-weight: bold">How did Hudisco get drug in to this any how?</span> Scott writes some beautiful paragraphs at times but unfortunately they are not always complete! Perhaps an oversight in his part? </div></div>

Ninth post in the thread, member GoughIsland questioned the Hendsoldt's flourite coating's placement.


If I were in the price range for a Hendsoldt, I would definately contact Nathan firsthand and go from there.

The only reason I'm in the running for a Premier 5-25 is due to Scott's flexibility on a trade-up.
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Scott,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Things have a way of working themselves out when people talk directly. Thanks for taking the call.

Best wishes to you and yours.

Nathan Hunt
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Group hug!
laugh.gif
 
Re: Premier or S&B

guess I’ve kept my silence long enough….

It sickens me how when someone-ANYONE dares to challenge or bring into question the quality or maybe better said, shortcomings of Zeiss’ small arms sighting systems, a lot of people, but most recently a newly formed import company goes straight for the trachea. Granted, the state agency “Zeiss” is diversified in so many areas from CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machines) to semiconductor, to periscopes, to kootie scopes, that with 160years of history, there can’t possibly be a better solution out there. How dare whomever? The audacity!

My history isn’t exactly accurate, but I seem to remember an anecdote about how a bureaucrat wanted to close down the US Patent Office approximately 100yrs ago, because “…everything that could be invented, has already been….”. What a repugnant statement!

Also baffling is that now Zeiss Optronics/Hensoldt-Wetzlar finally has US representation, how this person within a few short months is so qualified to defend the product line. I wish what little I know about optics would have taken less than 20yrs! What, with the internet dictionaries and all, I could just copy and paste abstract definitions on optics construction/theory, etc…Believe me, just to avoid appearing to be a complete dumbass, I have tapped into the knowledge found on www.merriam-webster.com. Don’t misunderstand me, I have the utmost affection and respect for my friends of many years: Walter, Bernd, Hans, Timo, Rudi and Manfred-to name a few, all whom have never given me any feeling but humility and modesty about who they work for and the products they make.

I’m not trying to posture my product in any other way but to say, maybe somebody else can do things a little better. I guess the jury is still out. BTW, our products were viewed under the same lighting conditions in the Orange County Convention Center.

So since everything that can be done, has been done, I might as well rollover and die. No need to improve on perfection.

Sorry to everyone for interjecting my thoughts into a “Premier” thread.

Respectfully,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles

 
Re: Premier or S&B

Now here's a radical idea. If you spend $2500 or more on a scope from any of the best makers, it's probably gonna be a pretty good item. Is my S&B 4-16 varmint FOUR times better than my 4-30 6500MD? Well no, but it is better, it just happened to cost 4X the Bushie.
Buy what you like and burn up that barrel.
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Chris, what's really sickenning is that you insuniate that person has somehow attempted to deface your product, and you are constantly trying to knockdown others to better yourself! That person has not once said anything negative about your product! I 'll take this as an attempt to vent on your part as no one is perfect! But if you insist we can take this to any level that may satisfy you! The floor is yours.....
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I’m not trying to posture my product in anyway but to say, maybe somebody else can do things a little better. I guess the jury is still out. BTW, our products were viewed under the same lighting conditions in the Orange County Convention Center.


Sorry to everyone for interjecting my thoughts into a “Premier” thread.


PS: Why I find myself with this time on my hands to post here is beyond me. I suppose you could say it felt like the right time to finally say something.
</div></div>

You're not trying to posture your product?

Try again.
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread has taken a disapointing turn... </div></div>

Yet once again.....
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Chris,

I'm not sure I understand what you are referencing.

Feel free to give me a call. 205-690-8160.

Thanks,

Nathan Hunt
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Though I startd it and its been valuable, I now officially declare this thread as "DEAD".
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who's "we"? Got a mouse in your pocket? </div></div>
"We" could be as little as two; as in me and you! Instead of editing away perhaps you should consider deleting the whole post!
 
Re: Premier or S&B

If this thread spirals downward any further I'm going to start posting pictures of some of my most recent weekend conquests and I had to use a wide angle lense. I'm just warning you guys.
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shankster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this thread spirals downward any further I'm going to start posting pictures of some of my most recent weekend conquests and I had to use a wide angle lense. I'm just warning you guys. </div></div>

Thank you...LOL
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Hs anyone tried the new 5X25 Premier and how does it compare to the S&B, primarily in quality of glass...at 60 the old eyes need every advantage they can get. </div></div>
While I have only looked through the 5-25X Premier (at the factory), I own and have a fair amount of experience with the Premier 3-15X and S&B 4-16X. To my eye, both the Premier & S&B offer noticeably better glass than the other scopes I own and use which include Nightforce, Leupold & IOR. Personally I don’t see much difference in the glass between the S&B & the Premier. There are, however some important differences in the scope features: While come with zero stops (a must-have for me), the ‘quick-set knobs’ on the Premier are a wonderful feature. Even more important (again, to me) is the fact that the Premiers come with CCW knobs. At one point CCW knobs were available from S&B, but after a year of looking I never found a S&B 5-25 with CCW actually available for sale. There is nothing wrong with CW knobs (sometimes called European threads), but if you use more than one scope, you really want all your scopes to have the same style of knobs. I guarantee anyone who switches back and forth between CW & CCW knobs will crank in the wrong direction sooner rather than later. This is embarrassing in a match, and potentially more serious in other environments. Food for thought.

Cheers,

DC
 
Re: Premier or S&B

Dear Chris..From the beginning I felt the hype around you heritage scopes to be bullshit. not only because i think your company is dishonorable but has also backtracked your warranty policy to sell your new scopes. But also for the thrash talk of what I and many beleive to be the benchmark of military scopes..Hensoldt.
Recently my cousin purchased one to see first hand the hype..and we agreed the optics was not better than the Scmidt and Bender or USO..The eye relief was critical and head position had to be almost perfecty to avoid distortion. and the knobs sucked..My Hensoldt is better in every which way.. And to top it off the scope broke within 50 rounds..the knob was stuck and would not turn..It was sent back and fixed but an explanation was never given..My USOs Smidts or Hensoldt which the Premiere is suppose to be so superior too never had such issues or had a knob stuck in such a way..
 
Re: Premier or S&B

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know Ive seen this question here before but cant find the post now that Im ready to buy. i do remember LL's comment the the Premier is better scope, but believe that was regarding the lower power. Hs anyone tried the new 5X25 Premier and how does it compare to the S&B, primarily in quality of glass...at 60 the old eyes need every advantage they can get. thanx, nd feel free to pm me. </div></div>
First off, I have never been in the military or LE, nor am I an optical engineer or otherwise an expert in glass or coatings. I do know superior machining from excellent machining and know hype from fact. I don't beat on my stuff but my most of my guns aren't safe queens either.

That said, and being the owner of a PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR CCW and a Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC I do have a bit layman's insight directly related to the "S & B PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR vs. Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR" question. Obviously this is not representative of the respective scope lines, but rather my layman's comments about my particular samples.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Features/characteristics common between my S & B PMII 5-25X DT CM LP Gen 2 XR CCW and Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Build Quality -</span>

Both are built for rugged use and dependability. As I said I don't purposefully beat on my stuff, so although I can and do "box test" my scopes for accuracy and repeatability of adjustments more than likely I'll never have to warranty either one. S & B scopes have a proven track record for durability, although anything can break. Premier scopes haven't been out long enough to have a track record, but I have no doubt that they will be proven very durable by those in the field in harm's way. Those are the tests that really matter.

<span style="font-weight: bold">PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR and Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR Reticles -</span>

Although the measurements and subtensions are identical between the two scopes <span style="font-style: italic">on paper</span>, when you look through the two scopes the reticles appear quite different. Not only do the subtensions of the Heritage appear heavier and stand-out more, but the reticle also looks distinctly "more "black" (and thus easier to see) compared to the PMII. If the only difference between the reticles was the darker, blacker appearance of the Heritage Gen 2 XR might chock it up to better glass coatings and/or more efficient baffles inside the tube, but its more than that - as if the reticle is etched differently. I have to wonder how accurate the marked magnifications on the ocular housings are (the numbered magnifications may or may not be accurate, so this could also play a part in the apparent visual differences. Although, I would definitely notice the difference in reticle and image size between the two if a magnification discrepancy was indeed the cause of the visual differences.

I had old Premier PDFs' of the 4-16X and 5-25X PMII Gen 2 XR (at 15X) and I compared the subtensions and measurements to PDFs' of the Heritage 3-15X and 5-25X (at 15X) that I had pulled off the web before. The subtensions and measurements were identical between the two Heritage Gen 2 XR scopes, with the line widths being thicker than on the PMIIs'. At 17X, my GAP reticle was slightly more coarse at 17X than the PMII at 17X but slightly less coarse than the Heritage at 17X (again, the PMII and Heritage 5-25Xs' are supposed to be the same). The GAP schematic is spec'ed at .1 MOA/2.65938mms' at 100 yards, compared to 0.025 MIL/0.09"/2.28600mm for both the Heritage and PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XRs'.

I PM'ed Jerry (Ricker) at Premier, and asked him about the subtensions and measurements of the Heritage 5-25X compared to the PMII 5-25X, explaining that the Heritage vertical and horizontal line widths "look thicker". Jerry emailed me, sending me an updated PDF of the Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR. The Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR PDF Jerry sent me has identical specs to the PMII 4-16X and 5-25X Gen 2 XR.

Once I mount the Heritage and have time I'll try to get some decent photos of the reticles at various powers and post them on the Hide'. Of course, people will have to realize and take into account that the marked magnifications on the ocular housings may or may not be actual magnifications, and that scopes will vary slightly.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Features/characteristics specific between my S & B PMII 5-25X DT CM LP Gen 2 XR CCW and Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR MTC:</span></span>


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">S & B PMII 5-25X Gen 2 XR DT CM LP CCW</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Clarity -</span></span>

<span style="font-style: italic">To my eyes</span>, as excellent as my PMII 5-25X is, the Heritage 5-25X appears to have a very slight edge in both resolution and color rendition. Not a huge difference, but <span style="font-style: italic">very slightly</span> better than my PMII in both). Edge-to-edge they seem equal.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Field of View -</span> </span>

I have seen people mention that the PMII's FOV is restricted at low power (when you dial down to 5X, a black ring is visible around the image) and this ring doesn't go away until magnification is increased to about 6-6.5X). My personal scope exhibits this, and the ring completely disappears by 6.5X. I don't worry about this, as I rarely dial below 10X anyway.

<span style="font-weight: bold">ADJUSTMENTS - </span>

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets</span></span>

The PMII has much more solid and definite "clicks" than my Heritage 5-25X. The PMII's clicks are very solid and definite, without the slightest hint of mushiness. However, since the PMII lacks a MTC ("More Tacile Click") option (each full MIL has a heavier detent) all the clicks feel the same and you have to look at the dial or count clicks. In this sense, adjustments must be done carefully and deliberately in order to avoid under or over-shooting your desired setting. An MTC would allow you to crank the full MILs fast, then slow down when you get close. I wish that the PMII was available with an MTC. The Elevation and Windage knobs turn easily and smoothly, with what I consider adequate resistence - not too stiff but not too easy to turn. Some might consider them too easy-to-turn in the field.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Parallax Knob</span></span>

The Parallax knob turns easily and smoothly, with a what is IMHO just the right amount of resistance. CCW rotation (you turn the knob "away from you" to focus on distant objects, and turn the knob toward you to focus on closer objects).

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination</span></span>

The Illumination rheostat is located in a separate housing on the LH side of the tube, just forward of the Ocular Bell, and has 11 settings plus "O"/Off. The settings are marked 0-11. Turning the illumination Knob CCW <span style="font-style: italic">(away from you)</span> increases the intensity of the illumnation (unlike on the Heritage, where the illumination increases in a CW direction).

There are two things I dislike about the PMII's Illumination adjustment: (1), the rheostat's location on the tube reduces the amount of space available for the rear ring, and (2) the rheostat must be turned from "0"/"Off" to the desired setting (there is no "off" position between each intensity setting). Turning the illumination dial to between any one of the numbered settings will actually turn-off the illumination, thus conserving battery power, but his is risky as the knob turns easily between the setting detents and could accidently be turned back on). At best, you could drain your CR2032 battery. At worst, operators could give away their position to the bad guys.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Diopter Setting</span></span>

The Diopter Setting is rubber-covered, so it provides some protection from high-recoiling calibers if you don't leave a lens cover on the ocular while shooting. The adjustment is stiff-to-turn, which is as it shoud be. The stiff setting means you won't alter the setting with a bump or by flipping open the cover.



<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Premier Heritage 5-25X Gen 2 XR:</span></span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Clarity -</span></span>

As I mentioned above, <span style="font-style: italic">to my eyes</span>, as excellent as my PMII 5-25X is, my Heritage 5-25X appears to have a very slight edge in both resolution and color rendition. Not a huge difference, but <span style="font-style: italic">very slightly</span> better than my PMII in both). Edge-to-edge they seem equal.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Field of View -</span> </span>

For the most part, my Heritage 5-25X does not exhibit this "problem". I say, <span style="font-style: italic">"for the most part"</span> because the way the ocular housing is timed the "5" doesn't line-up exactly. The magnification needs to be turned very slightly higher than the 5X stop, or else a ring will also be seen. Again, I don't worry about this, as I rarely dial below 10X anyway.

<span style="font-weight: bold">ADJUSTMENTS - </span>

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Turrets</span></span>

The Heritage clicks are "softer" and <span style="font-style: italic">on my scope</span> they feel a sort of mushy and indefinite. Because of this, adjustments must be done carefully and deliberately in order to dial your desired setting because sometimes you can't feel the "click". While the clicks aren't terrible, if they don't improve I will contact Premier about sending the scope in for them to look at and "tweek" - from reading a thread here on the Hide', a Heritage 3-15X owner had this complaint and sent his scope in. I don't recall whether this was a 22 MIL ST (I believe it was, because IIRC it was an early 3-15X) or a 15 MIL ST. At any rate, Premier "fixed" the scope and the customer is happy now.

The Heritage is available with a "MTC" (More Tacile Click) option (each full MIL has a heavier detent), allowing you to dial in complete darkness. You can crank the full MILs fast, then slow down when you get close. The MTC feature of the Heritage is really cool for adjusting full MILs' without looking, although as I mentioned above, anything other than a full MIL requires attentive, deliberate dialing in order to not under or overshoot the adjustment you want (this is because of the "mushiness" of my clicks). The "MTC" is a very cool option that I wish was available on the PMII.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Toolless Re-zeroing</span></span>

Very cool feature to have - just flip the toggle up and over, set the knob where desired, and flip the toggle back down and you're set (unlike the PMII turrets which require a small screwdriver to loosen/tighten two screws that secure the turrets to the erector assembly). No tools needed and no screws to lose!

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Parallax Knob</span></span>

The Parallax knob turns easily and smoothly, and is slightly stiffer than on my PMII. Its' GTG. As on my CCW PMII 5-25X, CCW rotation (turning the knob "away from you" focuses on distant objects, and turning the knob toward you to focuses on closer objects).

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illumination</span></span>

The Illumination rheostat is ingeniously incorporated into the Parallax Knob Housing, and has 11 settings, plus "0"/Off. The settings are marked 0-11. Turning the illumination Knob CW (towards you increases the intensity of the numbers (unlike on the PMII, where the illumination intensity increases in a CCW direction). I do wish that the illumination rheostat adjusted in a CCW fashion like the other controls.

By incorporating the illumination rheostat into the Parallax housing, Premier has solved one of the things that I dislike about the PMII's illumination rheostat - (losing ring space on the tube). The Heritage's illumination rheostat pulls out of the Parallax housing for use, and stores out of harm's way when not in use. Very Cool. Plus, the rheostat has just the right amount of tension to keep it in whatever position you place it in. This allows you to turn the illumination off between settings without fear of the illumination being bumped back-on.

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Diopter Setting</span></span>

As on my PMII, the Diopter Setting is stiff-to-turn, which is as it shoud be. It is not rubber-coated, so beware of high-recoiling rifles. The stiff setting means you won't alter the setting with a bump or by flipping open the cover. Something worth noting, is that the diopter adjustment ring is machined to accept Premier's Articulating Lens Cover, and the angle at which the ring is machined doesn't give you a lot to grab onto when adjusting the diopter. This is fine with me, as it helps prevent my friends from messing with my diopter adjustment.

5-25XGen2XRs18x6.jpg

5-25XGen2XRs28x6.jpg

5-25XGen2XRs38x6.jpg


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DC Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even more important (again, to me) is the fact that the Premiers come with CCW knobs. At one point CCW knobs were available from S&B, but after a year of looking I never found a S&B 5-25 with CCW actually available for sale...</div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold">DC</span>, you may have been looking before these became available, but <span style="font-weight: bold">CANAVAR</span> recently sold two <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">NIB S&B 5-25 PMII LP GEN II XR CCW .1mrad</span></span> scopes for less than what I have in mine. Also, if you really want one, you can always send a a S & B back to Germany to have the adjustments converted to CCW. Thats' what I did. It took for months but it was worth it for me.

However, I have been informed by Mark Cromwell ( at S & B USA) that S & B USA has brought technical equipment over here and is working on training technical staff here so that scopes can be serviced Stateside.

Keith
 
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