Prime ammo and hunting?

[Sendit6.5]

The choice of bullet, IMO, is less important than UNDERSTANDING THE BULLET YOU CHOSE!! Shot placement depends, for me, on the bullet I'm using. For example, if I'm using a ballistic tip that's designed to come apart and dump all the energy, I try to avoid bones on the entry. On the other hand, if I'm using something like a OTM (or other pill with reputation for penciling) I'm going to target a bony area to aid the expansion. It's an understanding of what your bullet's terminal characteristics are that should guide your shot placement.

Ultimately, precise shooting is the deciding factor. I'll take a bullet that I can deliver sub .5moa over a 1moa bucket every time, regardless of construction or its reputation as a 'hunting' or a 'match' bullet; because knowing I can deliver it in the appropriate place is the primary concern. Precision delivery of a bullet, in an appropriate area for the bullet's construction and terminal features, will always result in a swift kill. The best expanding bullet in the world, if not delivered properly, will do nothing.

For my .260 I've used the Federal Fusion with a lot of success but I'd probably be looking at Copper Creek if I was going to use factory ammo in it anymore. I wouldn't be afraid of the Prime, though - I'd just be breaking down shoulders with it OR using a high shoulder or neck shot to break the spine. No soft tissue placement.

With what little experience I have with match bullets on game I wouldnt shoot an animal with one I cared about it dying right there. I did some testing on pigs with them and they can have good performance if you hit a pig square on in the face, lots of bone structure, that splits the bullet open and causes a good amount of damage I guess for what it is. But glancing or soft tissue and they just suck them up seemingly no worse for the wear. Ballistic tips are the opposite, glancing or soft tissue and they explode taking lots of material with them in the process. Straight on a skull and they blow up before penetrating very deep.

For deer or pig sized game I have gone full circle and ended up going in the opposite direction of modern bullet technology, a good old pointed soft point like a gameking or partition.

Ive followed a couple pig hunters on instagram and while they get shipped lots of prime to use I have never been very impressed with the results I see despite their pimping of it. Sure the occasional eye pops out but thats more good placement than terminal performance, Ive never seen a good exit wound out of the prime unless they just turn the pigs over to hide the nasty for the web but I highly doubt that as they are sure to show you the eyes dangling.

This is some good advice!

 

[Sendit6.5]

Also, it seems the assumption is I'm shooting a 6.5CM. I'm shooting a 260, so the factory options for ammo are much less. This will be my match/target gun, but it's going on one hunt with me as I don't have a better option short notice - hence the desire for factory hunting options.

See if the Federal Fusion shoots well or try some Copper Creek stuff. Even the Remington Core-Lokt delivers great terminal performance if your rifle shoots it well enough to have confidence; and if you're not shooting real far. I only use it on pigs because my Tikka doesn't care for it all that much. If you have a lot of confidence in Prime, shoot it but be aware of its performance and pick your shot accordingly.

Hope you have a great hunt!

So ELDXs have a thicker jacket (from my experience) then ELDMs yet we've seen a couple posts saying ELDMs pencil through despite have no the same Ballistic tip and a thinner jacket.

Further a lot of "Hunting" bullets seem to be designed to pass through game, wasting energy and dumping it into the earth.

Meanwhile something like a Berger "Hunting" bullet in my experience rarely passes through, dumping all of its energy into the target.

Hunting bullets to me seem to be mostly scams, over engineered to have people pay huge amounts of money. It's an easy target really because some people spend huge amounts of money on a hunt, you wouldn't want to ruin that hunt by cheating out on ammo, so companies market "Premium" hunting rounds that cost 4 or 5 times sometimes more then their regular ammunition. And worse yet depending on what they're shooting might not be any better suited then the cheapest stuff.

A Partition is developed for huge animals with massive bones, that could kill you if you don't hit vitals. But people use them on white tails, which are fairly small and easy to kill. And yet you'll see people recommend them.

At the same time my experience with Hornady SSTs and Nosler Ballistic tips has been they under penetrate and game walking away, these however are also "Premium Hunting" bullets. But you wouldn't catch me using them again as I've had to do to much tracking with them. A few instances of them penciling through as well.

However everything I've shot with "Match" rounds has died almost instantly and never gone more then a few yards. On top of that I practice with these rounds far more often.

And were not talking about a few instances here, I've shot a lot of white tails (and a few Mule Deer) in fact next month I was supposed to help take 90 or so off of a couple properties due to over population, but I'll be working and that type of thing I really don't care for anymore, it turns it into work.

In your previous post you pointed out someone assumed your lack of knowledge or ignorance, have you used "Match" Bullets for hunting? If not you're just assumeing a lot of things and you are ignorant.

If we rely on the marketing of the people trying to sell us ammunition we'll all be buying the most expensive thing they can come up with, some of the research they do is after all "how do I get people to buy this?"

Everyone compalins when companies like Hornady use their marketing department to sell us new tips and superformance ammo, but when it comes to hunting rounds if we don't believe these companies were fools?

ill take my first hand experience over company marketing every day of the week.

I agree with you to an extent and, as I've posted above, agree that shot placement is paramount! On the other hand, there's always plenty of anecdotal internet evidence that's likely more due to luck than any sort of shooter or bullet proficiency. Lol!

Manufacturers have developed all sorts of hunting bullets with different characteristics to suit all sorts of animals and types of shot placement. The problem is that the manufacturers lump all of them into the "hunting" category as if they're all created equal and will work for any placement on any animal. Unfortunately, the vast majority of "hunters" don't know enough to even inquire about what the actual bullet is designed to do and what the parameters are for success. Heck, most hunters call a loaded round, "a bullet." Lol! The manufacturers would do the hunting community a favor if they explained (on every box) specifically what the bullet in that particular round was designed to do and, thus, what type of placement should be used. They produce such a wide array of hunting bullets in order to provide terminal performance for all sorts of critters and shot placements.

There's nothing wrong with a ballistic tipped bullet that has less penetration but expends all its energy in the vitals; but a controlled expansion, mushrooming bullet that blows out the other side can be very useful. I prefer my clients use something that consistently produces exit holes because tracking is easier and most people don't make their best shots on animals. As I stated in my post above, I tailor my placement to the bullet I'm using. Some bullets are appropriate for a coyote and some for whitetail and some for elk - but they're rarely perfect for all three. The problem isn't with the variety of types of performance that make up the vast array of "hunting" bullets - it's the misuse of them by hunters.

There are a LOT of factors that go into picking a great bullet for a particular animal and hunting environment. IMO

You definitely raise some great points!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[roggom]

Its pretty simple. Use it or not. I have been using Scenars for the past two years, Amax before that, and have never wounded or lost an animal from 80-500Y. I got some Prime worked up for my 260 and it is a beautiful thing. Box says its rated for deer sized game, I'm gonna use it this season for Pronghorn and Antelope.


From the Prime website " The PRIME 130 grain OTM eliminates ammunition from the accuracy equation for rifles chambered in .260 Rem. Manufactured in the most sophisticated facility in the world with temperature stable powder and exacting quality control measures, expect hand-load accuracy, lot consistency and reliability upon which you can trust your life. [h=3]USPs (unique selling propositions)[/h]
Hand-load accuracy

Consistent muzzle velocities across wide temperature ranges

OTM bullet rapidly transfers energy making it an excellent choice for pigs, deer, antelope, sheep and self-defense"

https://www.primeammo.com/ammunition/260/prime-260-rem-otm-130gr-box.html

 

[Graywolf.260]

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Confusion and arguing goes back a long time, there's an interesting article here (more about military considerations): http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1262

 

[Mullhead]

Bump for the guy in the hunting section

 

[hlee]

Bullets are designed with applications in mind.

- Rapid expansion for small game and varmints

- Controlled expansion for large thin skinned game

- Deep penetration for very large and/or dangerous game

- Absolute accuracy

Factors that control control flight and terminal ballistics include jacket diameter, jacket consistency, meplat geometry and construction and material, core material and construction, other.

Target bullet design puts all of the emphasis on the engineering of these various aspects of bullet design on accuracy. There is no consideration paid to what happens to the bullet (or the target) once the bullet impacts.

Hunting bullets manipulate the various components to (hopefully) maximize the lethality of a critical hit on game animals.

For example, a dangerous game bullets often have very heavy jackets (or are solids) to penetrate deep into the vitals of very large, angry, thick-skinned animals.

Varmint bullets are designed to almost explode on contact (Hornady's Varmint grenades, for example) with very thin jackets and large open tips or poly tips that are driven back into the bullet on impact.

Large thin-skinned game bullets often incorporate aspects of both of these, with soft or poly tips to enhance opening, but with thick jackets or partitions to control expansion and promote deep penetration.

Surely almost everyone has seen pictures like below...

https://imgur.com/sy5whvI

I use this as an example, but note that I have seen similar pictures for Remington Core-lokt ammunition. Note the consistent and predictable effect of terminal velocity on the opening of the bullet. This is an aspect that is controlled for in hunting ammunition but not in target ammunition.

My uncle loaded up some 30cal Barnes LRX bullets for his 300 weatherby magnum and complained to me that they were blowing up on impact on game. I pointed out to him that he was hot-rodding a bullet (right on the ragged edge of high pressure) designed for reliable expansion at long range and shooting deer at 50-100 yards. He had not matched his bullet to his hunting situation and was getting less than optimal performance.

I type all of the above just to show that there are a number of variables that need to be accounted for. And, given the variability in hunter, ammunition, range, point of impact, and animal response, there is no wonder that there are as many people that swear BY a particular bullet as swear AT them. If you optimize your ammunition for shots on game at 500+ yards and shoot an elk at 34 yards, you may well find that the bullet "over-expands" and does not drive to the vitals as you would expect. Likewise, if your ammunition is tailored for "jump-shooting" deer in heavy cover, you may find that bullet "pencils through" at long range. In both cases, a well placed bullet will produce the desired result (dead game) but we are talking about bullet terminal ballistics and expansion.

All else being equal, target bullets are something of a wildcard in a hunting scenario. As they are designed with no constraints on terminal ballistics, we don't really know if they will drive deep, pencil through, or blow up on impact. I think that the only thing that can be said reliably is that because there is no design constraint on terminal ballistics of target bullets, we don't have a reliable gauge of how they will perform. Make no mistake, putting a hole in the brain, through the spinal column, or through the lungs and heart will produce the ultimately desired result (dead animal)- weather it be from a target bullet or super-duper-whooper game-getter 5000-X bullet. While I will say that bullet placement is THE most important part of putting an animal on the ground, I think that using target bullets puts an even higher premium on perfect shot placement.

For the record, I started loading barnes X bullets for my 270 win when I was living in California- and was subject to a lead hunting ammunition ban- and found that they were more accurate than any factory load I could find. As such, I continue to use them in that rifle. But, I had supreme confidence in the AMAX bullets out of my 308 on deer as well.

 

[5RWill]

Shot placement>bullet selection for me. Don't get me wrong not like i'm going to take a barnes varmint grenade deer hunting, but i wouldn't hesitate to use the norma 130gr Gold. I will say if i was going on a Elk hunt or a hunting trip i'd invested some money in for a chance to kill a trophy i'd probably run an Elite Hunter or ELD-X, just because. That said for deer size game..i've been taking them for 8 years now with SMKs, AMAX, BTHP match, and now 130gr Hybrids. Poke holes where they need to go, animal will fall. People were taking game long before our time with more simplistic projectiles..

 

[BLKWLFK9]

So it's safe to take away from this, if you're going to use a match bullet, it's best for OTM style bullets to go shoulder/high shoulder, and tipped bullets should be put through the vitals away from home. Correct?

 

[Undrgrndprdcts]

Just another thing to think about, sometimes guys say their match bullet "penciled through". Sometimes if a person doesn't process that animal themselves or maybe isn't really paying attention when they do, they may only see the 2 small holes and not the liquefied internals. Often times these bullets will go in small, expand rapidly and shed the front half of their jackets (transferring a lot of energy and doing tons of internal damage), then the remaining core will leave a small exit. When this happens to me, the animal is usually laying where I shot it.

 

[Mullhead]

I have shot 180+ whitetail since last January with Amax's , matchburners and SMK. Still waiting for my first pencil through. I'll report back when that happens .

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I have shot 180+ whitetail since last January with Amax's , matchburners and SMK. Still waiting for my first pencil through. I'll report back when that happens .

What shot placement are you shooting with each ammo?

 

[Mullhead]

Whatever is available. We are not picky. My favorite shot is right behind the shoulder in the lungs above the heart . Bang flop or they go 50 yards and crash. I don't shy away from shoulder shots. Hard to run with no lungs and two broke legs.
308 155 &178 amax 175 SMK
260 140 Amax and matchburner
6 mm SLR 105 amax and matchburner.
180 deer shot 180 recovered.
When I started reloading all preached was Barnes Tsx.
Did the Barnes work? Sure they did, but the ran a lot father with small exit wounds and less of a blood trail. You wanna blow hole in a deer go get a box of matchburners. The 155 amax out of a 308 does wicked stuff.

 

[Mullhead]

[No message]

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Had any issue with high shoulder shots with the amax's? I only ask about the amax bc I've got a ton of eldm and they have the same jacket.

 

[coldboremiracle]

I had a Match Bullet pencil through just the other day, see for yourself the piss poor job it did.

 

[wapiti16b]

I'll bet you had a long recovery on that one ! Hahh !

 

[5RWill]

I had a Match Bullet pencil through just the other day, see for yourself the piss poor job it did.

Lol good shooting coldbore!

 

[Mullhead]

I've shot no less than 20 deer with 110 vmax 2400 fps out of a 300 blackout. This one was shot dead center of the shoulder. Ran 30 yards and crash. Green tip is a zmax AMP jacket same as Amax. Red tip is the vmax. Any target bullet running 2700 is gonna shred a deer.

 

[spife7980]

To be fair the vmax would be expected to grenade like that seeing as how it’s a varmint bullet and not a target bullet and all.

And the amax is widely known to be a great round for hunting and isn’t exactly a “target” bullet in the same vein as something like the hornady match bullets. It has the tip and the cavity for the tip which helps in expansion.

If anything I think thats proves proves the point of bullets performing to their designs. Now go shoot it with an actual target bullet and compare the results.

 

[vh20]

If anything I think thats proves proves the point of bullets performing to their designs. Now go shoot it with an actual target bullet and compare the results.

I can't vouch for his results, but he already did (post #62).

 

[spife7980]

I can't vouch for his results, but he already did (post #62).

Well if were going off of that laundry list then Ill stand by my post #17

I wasnt wanting to post these but since we're already dropping gore heres a pig shot in the face at 25 yards with a nosler custom comp, square in the face, popped an eye and blood every where (out of his mouth and nose as his nerves kicked him around, not the entry and exit holes) but very little bone structure crushed, if it hadnt gone straight into his brain Im sure he would have died a day or two later with a hell of tooth ache.

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Heres a pig shot with a game king. The hole I could actually stick my fist into says enough to me.

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[5RWill]

I'll say it again. Poke holes where they need to go..outside of using a 50 cal musket or an exploding varmint bullet. The animal will go down, least for most north american medium game. I've taken whitetail with a 308 pushing 175s/178s around 2650, consistently at 200yds, 300yds, 400yds, and 694yds. The one at 300yds was with a berger 175gr BT LR, the rest were with hornady 178gr BTHP. It has never failed me as long as i do my part. Also taken doe with 77gr SMKs out of my SPR and my buddy drilled a small buck with a 55gr soft point behind the front shoulder. Ran 50yds and collapsed. Ironically enough i've had 2 of the 3 deer we've taken run from 105gr Hunting VLD @ 2700fps with perfect shot placement out of our youth 243. Weird. The third was DRT due to Mom hitting the spine.

 

[Mullhead]

Wasn't calling vmax a target bullet just saying if you shoot a deer in the shoulder they don't run very far and fall dead . Even with the vmax.

 

[5RWill]

Wasn't calling vmax a target bullet just saying if you shoot a deer in the shoulder they don't run very far and fall dead . Even with the vmax.

Wasn't really saying you did. I was thinking something like a barnes varmint grenade also. VMAX are probably a little more stable than it, something akin to a ballistic tip. My point was as i said before that outside of something primitive or completely inadequate, shot placement is IMHO the most important factor in taking game.

 

[260284]

I had a Match Bullet pencil through just the other day, see for yourself the piss poor job it did.

You clearly missed the head and hit the vitals.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Thought about this thread when I stood over a doe I killed to put in the in-laws freezer. 168 smk at 200ish yards. she went about 15 feet from where I shot her. obviously, the pic is of the exit wound. heart chunks flew out of the exit hole when I threw her into the truck. She was 100lbs on the hoof

 

[james24]

Well I've been lucky enough to shoot 3 and my girlfriend 1 now out my PVA 6.5 Creed. I'm running nothing but Prime ammo. Here's my 4 shots

First one is 100lb doe sideways to me 110yds. Did a double shoulder shot and she piled up 30-40yds very little blood

Second one is a 110lb spike at 90yds. Shot was in the eyeball. Lots of carnage and dropped.

3rd is 160lb 5pt slightly quartered away at 110yd so shot went right behind front shoulder and came out in front of other. Took out the heart. He ran maybe 10ft. Again very little blood.

4th is a 130lb 6pt at 90 yards. Girlfriend placed a high shoulder shot dropping it in the tracks. Lots of damage on the inside.

Ive come to figure out that there won't be much of an exit if u hit something hard as the bullet explodes like it's meant to be on contact. I don't like tracking animals so I know will make sure shot placement is exactly where it needs to be.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Lol.. bump

I love this thread.

 

[Ledzep]

oh wow... this is a thread.

Hunting bullets are the worst. I don't mean anything about performance. I mean reviews and opinions of them are the worst. I honestly think it's worse than semi-automatic handgun bullet discussion...

People look at a block of gel and think that the channel created in gel is exactly an overlay of what is going to happen in an animal made of skin, muscle, bone, sinew, blood, guts, whatever...

And my favorite is judging reaction to getting shot like every animal is the same. Well X brand Y's dropped the deer right in its tracks but A brand B's the deer ran for 60 yards before it keeled over deader than hell...

The target vs. hunting bullet is a matter of chance on top of the matter of chance of differences from one animal to the next...

Match Bullets
-non-tipped HBPT:
Rarely ever going to produce a picturesque mushroom. Most likely to fragment because match bullets have thin jackets akin to varmint bullets. Probably the highest chance of acting like a FMJ if it doesn't hit anything solid (bone, serious muscle mass), such as a clean lung pass-through without hitting ribs.

-tipped
Same as the HPBT except the polymer tip is probably more likely to set-back causing initial disruption leading to fragmentation. Just because it has a tip doesn't mean it's designed to expand. The ELDM does not have the same geometry between tip and core that the ELDX has BY DESIGN to make the ELDX expand.

Hunting bullets
-Bonded:
To my knowledge requires almost pure lead to have the core stick to the jacket (think solder). This process also does an anneal job on the jacket making it softer, too. So you have soft pure lead bonded to soft annealed copper. At magnum high velocities and close ranges, can get over-expansion and weight loss but a big chunk will still hold together. Bonding process does not lend itself to accuracy. Soft copper also fouls faster.

-Soft point (non-bonded)
Antimony alloy core, thicker jacket than match bullets (30-50% if I had to throw guesstimates), jacket features designed to fail in a specific manner to form the mushroom shape we're used to. Usually has some form of locking feature on the jacket that is meant to capture the lead and keep at least some of the core with the jacket after impact. Probably the most reliable expander, but low and variable BC because of exposed lead (and how easily it's deformed)

-Ballistic tip
Similar to a soft point but the lead core has geometry that interfaces with the tip to cause controlled expansion. Jacket, again, designed for controlled expansion and core retention over a specified impact velocity range. Better, more consistent BCs because the polymer tip is pointier and more consistent than lead. The ELD-X is, to my knowledge, the only bullet specifically designed to expand down to low impact velocities (long-range) as well as hold together at higher velocities. There are always design trade-offs... Smacking an animal at 20 yards with an ELDX launched out of a 7mm rem mag at 3300fps is likely to produce a lot of fragmentation because the jacket has to be thin enough to expand at 1800fps, too.... So in that case a thicker jacket Nosler or something will probably perform better. Sierra's new Gamechanger was kind of a disappointment to cut apart. There is no core locking feature and it seems to just be a TMK with a REALLY thick jacket.

-Solids
solid copper (Barnes/Hornady GMX) Very consistent results, very consistent penetration and weight retention. Probably the best pure hunting bullet in my opinion.


Cannelures are more likely to hurt accuracy than help (There's a reason Sierra 77smks barely have marks engraved on the cannelured version). The exception is lathed cannelures (on solids, mostly).

It's all subjective and personal preference as to what you "need". A FMJ through the heart will kill anything on this planet 10 times out of 10... "Energy transfer" via a slug stuck inside the animal means fuckall. Frangibles transfer all their energy but if you shoot an Elk in the shoulder with one you're going to have a fucking mess. Slip one through the ribs and into the heart and it's a dead animal instantly. A Varmint bullet to the neck is a fast death. Match bullets act similar to varmint bullets most of the time with one exception... they usually aren't going as fast, and sometimes lack the geometry that makes varmint bullets begin to expand... That's why you see conflicting reports of one guy having a grenade in the vitals and one guy having a 3/4" pass through hole. The other theory is that the bullet needs to pass completely through to produce a blood trail... Whatever makes you happy.

My personal take on it is that Amax/ELDMs work good enough up to deer. For Elk or bigger I'd start looking at ELDX or more likely GMX/Barnes. But you can convince yourself of whatever you want. Do what makes you happy. Wow.. I typed a book.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I have changed my opinion on the matter since the conception of this thread and the SMK kill thread. I was always in the camp of shooting hunting bullets for game. That was until I made my self try my match bullets due to these 2 threads. Iv'e used 3 different match bullets on 3 different deer. All ended up the same, dead as fuck. The SMK, the ELDM, and berger hybrid. Like Ledzep said, u put something through the heart or lungs, its dead. No matter the animal. I like using the most accurate bullet available. considering what was made available 150 years ago and longer, when deer, sheep, and bison were driven near to extinction, they weren't using a ELDX or accubond, or a bullet as accurate as a match bullet. On a side note, I did just buy a box of the 90gr Sierra game changer bullets. I'd like to see how they shoot b/c they actually have a decent BC.

 

[tsu45]

I’ve killed more whitetail with a 168smk than anything else. Never had a problem with one going more than ~40 yards.

 

[Ledzep]

Funny story. A buddy of mine for several season after getting his 300 blackout AR shot deer with 200-220grain factory subsonic ammo. His thought was the typical fuddy one of "more grains more better". He noted that they always seemed to run 60-100yd though.. Anyway after 3 years or so of this he bought and tried some 125 grain stuff and was blown away how much faster the deer stopped/died with it.

So I mean when you have people sticking deer with arrows, and hunting with 10mm glocks, and plugging subsonic non-expanding bullets through them with a 300 blackout... It's hard for me to buy an ethics arguement for using a match vs. designed hunting bullet in a highpower rifle for deer or smaller. Fact is there's just not much to them.

African big game, Moose, Elk, Caribou, (brown) bear... okay maybe start looking at something that holds together on impact or limit the shots you take. But that's no different IMO than limiting the shots you take with a bow/arrow. Just be competent and know what your setup does.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

AGAIN, I agree with Ledzep