- Thread starter spife7980
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I just joined the precision rifle world, and I have yet to buy PRIME ammo. After learning about what Jim and his company has done for the company, I'm more than willing to donate to a gofundme or patreon fund. Jim has taken care of and supported this community, I think it's time we take care of him.
That court document almost reads like a book in some parts. Very interesting to learn about the case. That's some high dollar hooker- wolf of wall street shit though.
I have written a letter to send to RUAG and its subsidiaries, major retailers, etc. I would like to make it available for others to send as well but I will ask Frank and PRIME first for feedback and permission. I do not want to say or do anything to make PRIME's upcoming task any more herculean.
Anyone know if Jim O'Shaughnessy is a member here?
Anyone know if Jim O'Shaughnessy is a member here?
That term has been around since 1776.
This is some lowlife business ethics. If RUAG comes out ahead somehow in this ordeal, I'll do my damned best to hurt them financially.
We need to attack ruag and threaten their business model. The easiest way is to contact them and criticize the them and really call them the pieces of shit they are
Call em shit stains, call em ass holes
Call em what ever needs doing
They are the the stain on our hands when we deal with these types
Call em shit stains, call em ass holes
Call em what ever needs doing
They are the the stain on our hands when we deal with these types
Well I personally will support prime on this. If there was a way we could support prime by either donations or pre-ordering ammo for the next time they're back I'd be in.
No more Norma products for me. Also gonna be on the lookout for any of that order ruag tries to liquidate, no way am I buying prime headstamp unless its from prime.
No more Norma products for me. Also gonna be on the lookout for any of that order ruag tries to liquidate, no way am I buying prime headstamp unless its from prime.
So some twat plays on your emotions and this is your solution, RUAG will win this, what is your next discourse?
You won't ever see any of that Prime ammo. Based on the video and the "millions of rounds sitting in a warehouse northwest of Nashville" it will likely be sold only in bulk lots, mostly towards departmental/unit/government orders. Liquidation is a volume game. They aren't interested in selling 2-4 boxes at a time to civilians. Or anything to civilians, as we've learned here. They will only seek to sell it by the forklift load.
I mean, I wouldn’t be opposed to purchasing prime ammo by the pallet... But it would have to come from Prime not Ruag
Probably right on that. But none the less, I still won't be contributing to ruag screwing prime.
I’ve ordered over 1500 rds of Norma ammo in the last 2 months. Im not ready to say never again because I’ve only seen one side of the argument so far. I’m curious what the RAUG claim is. If they truly did steal from Prime, hopefully the courts will work it out, but I have no faith in that either. I guess time will tell. I’m certainly not saying never again, but definitely saying not for now.
Their claim is that prime welched on agreed upon payment. Then when prime paid for the 6mm and 6.5saum shipment, they kept the money as part of the back owed debt and also kept the ammo.
They claim they were attempting to help prime raise capital with the 6mm. They also make no mention of the deal made in January 2018.
Ruag is the plaintiff in the case. They are the ones that started it first. Prime is denying and counterclaiming.
This lawsuit is the suing of prime by ruag.
Ruag sent debt collection paperwork and breach of contract paperwork to Prime. Prime did not dispute this. What prime disputes is this lawsuit and that paperwork violate a second agreement which changed the debt into a loan.
Ruag is claiming they were attempting to help prime by taking the order/payment for 6mm and once they deemed prime would not be able to pay the debt, kept the money and the ammo.
Prime is claiming they violated the second deal which was agreed upon and cited the original contract as the basis for keeping the money and sueing prime.
If half of what Prime is saying is true, I imagine getting an injunction from the court for RAUG to release their ammo to them as to stop them from going out of business should be fairly easy.
Read through the entire thing court filing.
I actually see prime winning this if they can stay above water.
The fact that they operated under the handshake deal for 5 1/2 months, money exchanged hands multiple times and was accepted by RUAG in accordance with the terms of the handshake deal, prove they did have a verbal and enforceable contract.
I actually see prime winning this if they can stay above water.
The fact that they operated under the handshake deal for 5 1/2 months, money exchanged hands multiple times and was accepted by RUAG in accordance with the terms of the handshake deal, prove they did have a verbal and enforceable contract.
If they can show the amounts coincided with things in the handshake agreement. Better have the emails to show it.
If not, it’s gonna be hard to prove they weren’t just paying them what they could, when they could on the ammo that was past that two year mark.
Pretty much everything is going to rely on what proof they have that such a deal as described in addendum 2 actually took place.
I agree, if they can produce evidence of the handshake/email agreement.
Hi,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but if anyone thinks that some letters to Midway or any other commercial entity that sales their products is going to put a dent into the RUAG machine...clearly does not understand RUAG and/or their customer base.
For example:
Daniel Defense is still in business even though the CEO stated he is for more firearm restrictions.
Smith & Wesson is still in business.....
Glock is still in business.....
Cheaper Than Dirt is still business even though the horrible price gouging on magazines a couple years ago.
The monthly RUAG ammunition order to KASOTC alone is probably damn near what Primes entire annual order was/is.
I hope Prime can find another manufacturer to produce products for them ASAP!!! But it is going to be hard to find an ammunition manufacturer that can provide the price Prime needs in order to resell.
Maybe they can purchase OEM components from some of the International manufacturers and load themselves to get the QC standards they need.
https://www.men-defencetec.de/en/
http://www.yugoimport.com/en
http://www.barijmunitions.ae/
Sincerely,
Theis
I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but if anyone thinks that some letters to Midway or any other commercial entity that sales their products is going to put a dent into the RUAG machine...clearly does not understand RUAG and/or their customer base.
For example:
Daniel Defense is still in business even though the CEO stated he is for more firearm restrictions.
Smith & Wesson is still in business.....
Glock is still in business.....
Cheaper Than Dirt is still business even though the horrible price gouging on magazines a couple years ago.
The monthly RUAG ammunition order to KASOTC alone is probably damn near what Primes entire annual order was/is.
I hope Prime can find another manufacturer to produce products for them ASAP!!! But it is going to be hard to find an ammunition manufacturer that can provide the price Prime needs in order to resell.
Maybe they can purchase OEM components from some of the International manufacturers and load themselves to get the QC standards they need.
https://www.men-defencetec.de/en/
http://www.yugoimport.com/en
http://www.barijmunitions.ae/
Sincerely,
Theis
Manufacturers do this all the time.
The way I see it is they used prime as sales and marketing to gain a footprint and now want to cut them out.
I have had this happen to me with backdoor sales to my customer base from the manufacturer.
This goes on all the time I think.
Some big sports store will be selling thier ammo any day now under thier name.
The way I see it is they used prime as sales and marketing to gain a footprint and now want to cut them out.
I have had this happen to me with backdoor sales to my customer base from the manufacturer.
This goes on all the time I think.
Some big sports store will be selling thier ammo any day now under thier name.
Not only that but to say RAUG is the devil by only watching a video on social media is a little crazy. Under that logic Rep Omar’s life is in jeopardy because Trump said mean things about her. Speaker Pelosi told me so on twitter. There are 3 sides to every story....
It may be easier/more effective to just post links to this video on the reviews for all RUAG's products on the Midway and Brownell's sites.
Lot of people buying ammo will read the reviews first.
Add in Ammotech too.
I used to be the Production Mgr there before the Ruag buyout. I don't know why it says Del Rio, it's actually in the outskirts of NE Tampa.
Hi,
Absolutely correct IMO.
This is what can happen when you are a "Manufacturer" that does not actually manufacture.
Your company outlives its' usefulness to the actual manufacturer and next thing you know.......you are out in the cold and trying to regroup.
It takes some serious Non-Compete agreements to keep the real manufacturer in check once we start talking about them doing anything on OEM basis.
Sincerely,
Theis
I'm not a lawyer but did study law in college and a verbal agreement can be binding if the 7 essential elements of a contract are met, offer, acceptance, meeting of the minds, consideration, capacity, legality, and sometimes a written document.
Don't quote me it's been a while ?
Kind of like PMC, eh?
I remember walking through their factory a long while back, looking at all the machines covered with plastic, and the staff reduced to a handful of people. Their job was to take the ammo we delivered, out of the OEM boxes, and then slip them into PMC branded boxes. The only difference in the ammo from the company I worked with, and the PMC ammo was the headstamp.It was a crying shame seeing all that machinery lying dormant and unused (never mind what was in the boneyard out back), while the owners just sat back and collected profit (short sightedly) for little to know work.
I feel badly for Prime, but I have to say, this sure isn't the first time I've seen this sort of thing happen.
I don't know if @Lowlight has ever seen it directly, but I know I have. Don't fool yourselves guys, the deep end of the pool of the firearms industry is about as crooked and ruthless as it gets. All the big players (Hornady, Remington, Federal, etc.) actively assess the small companies as threats. When they reach a certain size/revenue...the big boys have verbal conversations about how they are going to crush them. Gotta maintain the status quo and all.
Remember, most of the executive level people at the big name companies are all interrelated. It an incestuous industry, where execs hop between companies over the years, cross pollinating their ruthless and many times dishonest tactics.
To be sure, there's money to be made in the industry as a small "manufacturer". But, that being said, as a small company, you don't want to be on the skyline. Being "too" successful will garner the attention of the bigger companies (and more importantly) the three main distributors in the industry; attention that usually ends badly for the small guy.
I sure hope it works out well for Prime, but I gotta say, they're definitely swimming upstream on this.
I wonder though, if Nosler is still getting their brass from Norma/RUAG...lots of angles and motivators in this industry, that can make for some interesting bed partners.
I don't know if @Lowlight has ever seen it directly, but I know I have. Don't fool yourselves guys, the deep end of the pool of the firearms industry is about as crooked and ruthless as it gets. All the big players (Hornady, Remington, Federal, etc.) actively assess the small companies as threats. When they reach a certain size/revenue...the big boys have verbal conversations about how they are going to crush them. Gotta maintain the status quo and all.
Remember, most of the executive level people at the big name companies are all interrelated. It an incestuous industry, where execs hop between companies over the years, cross pollinating their ruthless and many times dishonest tactics.
To be sure, there's money to be made in the industry as a small "manufacturer". But, that being said, as a small company, you don't want to be on the skyline. Being "too" successful will garner the attention of the bigger companies (and more importantly) the three main distributors in the industry; attention that usually ends badly for the small guy.
I sure hope it works out well for Prime, but I gotta say, they're definitely swimming upstream on this.
I wonder though, if Nosler is still getting their brass from Norma/RUAG...lots of angles and motivators in this industry, that can make for some interesting bed partners.
hate to say it but if all goes down as it seems, either way prime is out of luck.
sales and procurement's job is to:
1. create new opportunities within margin and along the direction of the business plan
2.cultivate organic growth of sales..sell more products to current business partners
or
3. use current purchases/book of business to gain price concessions from current suppliers
easiest way is to cut out the middle man (either a salesman on the purchasing side or a consultant on the sales order side) and get a higher margin for their book of business
thats how those departments get a raise/budget or a bonus/compensation
if my sales guy comes to me year 2017 to 18 and says "i didnt sell anything new but i was able to keep the margin the same although there were component/raw material increases in the industry"..
id say thats great..go sell something your not getting your free set of steak knives.
happens 2 years in a row, a knowledgeable sales guy who been around for a while feels the heat on his neck
depending on the company "your accounts" become house accounts because the relationship has been created because of on time delivery and service quality. you dont get money for time served 10 years ago
never shake hands and make decisions off that hand shake and never send off the cuff emails when its serious business.
think of most large businesses, the CEO (not the owner, if its not public) usually has a 3-5 year contract and then hes out.
the CEO doesnt care about anything but making his numbers look good using his contract as the guide.
if you are supposed to make profits increase by X% and you get a X compensation, do you really care if you squash prime...no
you want to hit your numbers so after the 3-5 year contract you get a large pay out, resign for a larger payout or go somewhere with a "victory" on your resume.
if that takes squashing a company like prime, yes he/she might feel bad but they will feel bad in their ferrari.
even if they loose the case to prime, prime may have some gains but RUAG would already be in the market with a competitive product at a equal to or better price point.
thats is where patent lawyers and non competes come in, when ever possible
There is a lot of back and forth...I read a few parts again but I started dosing as it was late.
I wonder the following though
I wonder the following though
- Did PRIME enter into an original agreement that could not be met financially? Maybe PRIME was too ambitious with the first agreement. Why did they owe that much to RUAG? Would seem to me that at some point, this would have been re-negotiated...appears that the 2nd agreement was intending to do that??? However, there is no actual written 2nd agreement that specifically addresses the service of the original debt.
- Did RUAG actually build the ammunition (6.5 SAUM and 6mm Creedmoor) under the second agreement or did they just say they would with full intent to use any monies received as back payment with interest on the original agreement. I did not see any specific evidence or claims that said RUAG had physically built it.
- We are all talking about the breach of contract but did RUAG violate its NDA with respect to the loading formula? It appears from reading the document that 6 Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 SAUM were all loaded to formula provided by PRIME to RUAG. The claim is that RUAG produced and sold this ammo under the NORMA name. If PRIME can prove this, that would be a huge penalty against RUAG.
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It seems to me this is a classic case of big brother trying to smother/crush Prime due to the huge success of their products, trying to STEAL their Proprietary powder blend and then market it under a brand they control........ When Prime gets their bought n paid for merchandise which I understand is millions of rounds out of the warehouse I will buy a good size order to help get them back on their feet @footsteps ....... Scumbag theievs Boycott them fucks.
The only way I see Prime surviving this is if they procure their own machinery, and start making their own stuff in house (a tough, if not impossible, task in the US these days). Everything except primers and powder. Bullets, brass, tooling...everything.
While they may (and I hope they do) win their legal battle, it does not mean they are out of the frying pan by any stretch of the imagination. Not unless they have a good relationship with another manufacturer. And, that that manufacturer is willing to continue to support them, all while the support to Prime doesn't impact any of THEIR (the actual manufacturer's) business or contracts in the industry.
Bottom line, someone needs to being making a trip to Belgium (or someone's boneyard here in the States), to source some manufacturing equipment IMHO or they're just delaying the inevitable (when someone will slip a knife in their back, without any recourse to survive it).
While they may (and I hope they do) win their legal battle, it does not mean they are out of the frying pan by any stretch of the imagination. Not unless they have a good relationship with another manufacturer. And, that that manufacturer is willing to continue to support them, all while the support to Prime doesn't impact any of THEIR (the actual manufacturer's) business or contracts in the industry.
Bottom line, someone needs to being making a trip to Belgium (or someone's boneyard here in the States), to source some manufacturing equipment IMHO or they're just delaying the inevitable (when someone will slip a knife in their back, without any recourse to survive it).
Hi,
I bet BCN Technical Services would be willing to offload some commercial reloading equipment for a good price...
https://mibiz.com/item/24750-west-m...-maker-sues-uae-held-firm-in-contract-dispute
Sincerely,
Theis
Is there a confirmed list of RAUG companies?
Set Point is another interesting equipment maker as well (BCN seems geared to bullet manufacturing equipment only).
https://www.setpointusa.com/ammunition-equipment/ammunition-case-manufacturing-equipment/
Hate to be the asshole here but what does prime expect to happen? They dont produce anything. These large companies are going to wise up sooner or later and try to take the market. Is has happened countless times in history. Prime should have had better succession planning including manufacturing the ammo themselves. Being subject to the whims of suppliers is bad enough, but also being subject to the people who assemble your products...bad business. I feel terrible for Prime but they are learning an expensive lesson. Hope they can pull through this.
I'll summarize what happened in "English".
Prime owed RUAG money. They were making payments. Had 2 months left on 1 contract. 2 years left on another.
RUAG then accepted a new ammo order for 350k rounds of ammo under a new contract, consolidating both previous contracts, but never shipped the ammunition to prime.
Ruag admits that they never intended on shipping the ammo under the new contract - Also held the ammo formula over PRIME's head as virtual collateral - They just wanted the money.
RUAG then emphasized that they'd go ahead and just make it themselves, regardless of the fact it's a proprietary load designed for PRIME.
That's what happened in a nutshell.
Prime owed RUAG money. They were making payments. Had 2 months left on 1 contract. 2 years left on another.
RUAG then accepted a new ammo order for 350k rounds of ammo under a new contract, consolidating both previous contracts, but never shipped the ammunition to prime.
Ruag admits that they never intended on shipping the ammo under the new contract - Also held the ammo formula over PRIME's head as virtual collateral - They just wanted the money.
RUAG then emphasized that they'd go ahead and just make it themselves, regardless of the fact it's a proprietary load designed for PRIME.
That's what happened in a nutshell.
And in the 90% probability scenario it doesn't work out..everyone loses their money as they are unsecured creditors. Not very smart but I'm sure prime will cash any check you are willing to spend to help defend themselves.
they already sold off a large portion of it for the warehouse move, everything went.
I would like to know what happened to the $770,000+ dollars that paid for the ammunition which RUAG delivered.
There was the "warehouse move" which sold lots of ammo at a nice discount. Did they really need to do this or was PRIME just trying to generate cash? If any of you received free or discounted ammunition from PRIME, ........
The other kicker here is the CONTRACT specifies that if PRIME is in default then RUAG retains any intellectual property. This sort of thing is simply business. Word of mouth agreements or even a handshake don't hold water in the business world. I don't like it either but I witnessed some of this during my 38 year career in the high tech industry.
There was the "warehouse move" which sold lots of ammo at a nice discount. Did they really need to do this or was PRIME just trying to generate cash? If any of you received free or discounted ammunition from PRIME, ........
The other kicker here is the CONTRACT specifies that if PRIME is in default then RUAG retains any intellectual property. This sort of thing is simply business. Word of mouth agreements or even a handshake don't hold water in the business world. I don't like it either but I witnessed some of this during my 38 year career in the high tech industry.
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Sounds like they used that to pay off the previous note. Shady business by RUAG but they should have known better when they called for 100% prepayment on short notice something fucky was going down.
So if this can be settled is there any options for Prime as far as manufacturers?
Yes,
Prime has already spoken to others, but the money is currently tied up in this and with the 6.5SAUM and 6CM ammo that was pre-paid
Other companies will make ammo for them, that has been explored already
RUAG was stalling Prime and kept moving the goal posts, that meant nothing could happen.
Prime has already spoken to others, but the money is currently tied up in this and with the 6.5SAUM and 6CM ammo that was pre-paid
Other companies will make ammo for them, that has been explored already
RUAG was stalling Prime and kept moving the goal posts, that meant nothing could happen.
Besides ruag and norma are there any other brands associated with them domestically?
You'll want to read the court docs when you can. There wasn't a 100% prepayment specified. It sounds to me that PRIME paid that money up front for it's most recent order. And RUAG applied it to the outstanding balance.
customers that are over terms always call back and say...but i paid
my CFO has to tell them, yes you paid but you had X amount over 90 days (45 day terms for example)
"with that last payment you are now only X amount over 60 days"
If the customer has been around for a while we will then do a 50% up front on the next order
i pay my suppliers in 30-45, by you extending me im being used as your warehouse (and fucking my cashflow), not going to happen
This sounds like a case of "A Lannister always pays his debts." But Tyrion has only paid for some of the debt. If Prime hadn’t paid up 100% for what they owed, then I don’t blame RAUG for asking for payment upfront on the new order. Keeping the new order may be them just settling the original debt.
Comes down to if the second agreement was actually a binding contract to turn the originally owed debt into a loan.
And if so, if the payments made after such contract were in line with the loan repayments agreed upon.
If the answer to either of those is “no,” well........
So when will this 6.5 saum ammo be hitting market? I'll buy two pallets please...
No worries though RUAG messed with the wrong Country don't they know Americans love jury trials, i mean come on...
No worries though RUAG messed with the wrong Country don't they know Americans love jury trials, i mean come on...
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