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Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

Veer_G

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Jun 15, 2008
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It seems that the AMD-65s that have been supplied to the Afghan National Police are receiving a bad rap from their ungrateful recipients, mostly because they aren't perceived to be as militarily capable as other possible AK variants.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/2...-repercussions/

From the commentary:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The whole issue of supplying the Afghan National Policewith the AMD-65 or even the AK-47 is syptomatic of the larger problems/conceits of US counterinsurgency strategy, which all too often regards the local forces as a mere auxiliary to the "more professionally competent" US forces which are expected to do the heavy lifting of defeating the the LLF (Local Liberation Front) of the current conflict. This attitude ignores the fact that the local forces, if properly trained and led, can equal or even exceed US forces in terms of competency and professioanlism, at least on a tactical level, and have the additional advantage of knowing the language, customs, people and terrain. It also ignores the basic truth that counterinsurgencies are ultimately won by the local forces, with the external (US, Nato, Commonwealth) forces ultimately assuming less and less of a role. The Sunni Awakening is a classic example. Finally, the arming of the ANP with an inferior rifle probably reflects the institutional bias of the US military against "civilian" police in favor of regular military, although history shows that counterinsurgencies are won by focusing on intelligence and security - basic police functions, rather than closing with and destroying the enemy by fire and movement (the definition of infantry combat).

The real answer is for the US, military or otherwise to focus on creating well trained and led paramilitary forces, more akin the French Gendarmie or Italian Carabinerie, which have sufficient firepower and tactical organization to operate in the field against the Taliban, but have an essentially police outlook. Creating such organizations, military or paramilitary, requires the investment of a lot of time and human capital and does not lend itself to quick mass production solutions, which is the American way. What both the ANP and the ANA need more than a "better rifle" is good leadership and an honest and effective logisitical support, again something that takes time and human effort. To achieve this, and defaeat the Taliban, will take far beyond July 2011 and require a focus on people rather than the right rifle.</div></div>
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

If they're anything like Iraqi police, you could give em a sling shot or a 240B and it wouldn't matter.

They, like many here, are convinced the best toys make the best shooters.

They, like many before them, think that you have to shoot full auto every time.

They, like many who will come, do not deserve our help and should rot in their fetid countries for allowing such crackpots to infiltrate their society in the first place.

I have an idea- how about Iran supply them their weapons since they are supplying their govt with $.

Fuck Afghanistan.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The real answer is for the US, military or otherwise to focus on creating well trained and led paramilitary forces</div></div>

Ask Billy Waugh what he thinks about training Muslims.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This attitude ignores the fact that the local forces, if properly trained and led, can equal or even exceed US forces in terms of competency and professioanlism, at least on a tactical level</div></div>

Interesting theory.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

Training Muslims..., interesting. I don't think it's so much a matter of a particular religion as a matter of religious zealotry. The only wisdom that counts comes out of some written revelation that involves mysticism and xenophobic hatred. Gott mit uns, etc.

If you want to imagine what such zealotry foments on a battlefield, between massed forces, you don't need to imagine. The Iran-Iraq war demonstrated that military applications of unbounded zealotry are very good for reducing excess population, and for anything else, not so much.

The best way to defeat militant Islam is to get it to fight itself. Not hard to do, apparently. They're going to do it some day anyway, it's all just really a matter of whether they can hang onto their cool until they finish off the Great Western Satans.

I think that by dangling our young men and women under their noses, all we're really doing is postponing their own rivalries. Pull back, isolate, and bring them guns and ammo. Lawyers would be optional, and possibly beneficially catalytic...

Greg
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Training Muslims..., interesting. I don't think it's so much a matter of a particular religion as a matter of religious zealotry.</div></div>

I wasn't aiming at the religion so much as the group as a whole (I started to type Arab). While "trying" to train Libyans Waugh found them to be mindless sheep (my term) who could or would not exercise personal initiative, but would wait for an authority figure to direct them. Maybe a couple of thousand years to alter the mindset...who knows.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The best way to defeat militant Islam is to get it to fight itself. Not hard to do, apparently. They're going to do it some day anyway, it's all just really a matter of whether they can hang onto their cool until they finish off the Great Western Satans.</div></div>

Good point.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

This article is bull shit. These people shoot each other and other coalition forces. I don't trust them at all and am always wary when they are around. When they can learn to be responsible with the weapons that have been given to them maybe we'll start talking about upgrades. You don't give someone a Sako TRG that can't even use a 10-22 responsibly.

They can eat a dick.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

If they had their shit together like western nations do, there would be some Afgan MagPul equivalent selling better performing accessories for that piece of shit rifle. Which would then create jobs and help their economy and so on and so on. All these nations on US welfare need to figure it out, we are running out of money and patients. I have to laugh about the statement about the sights being to close together, I don't think I have ever seen them use sights.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Socalsheepdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All these nations on US welfare need to figure it out, we are running out of money and <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">patients</span></span>.</div></div>

Nah, we seem to be able to supply plenty of them, unfortunately.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

Reminds me of the ARVN's.

We flew Hueys a time or two a month as a volunteer door gunners to get flight pay. USMC Birds (Batsign painted on the nose) O/O Chu Lai would piok up up at the strip in Dong Ha.

When we carried ARVN conscripts out for field combat deployments, as often as not, they had to be loaded onto the planes under their officers' drawn weapons, and occasionally, they would be driven off the plane the same way.

Once off, they would clear the rotors; and once or twice a few took potshots at the planes.

After that, we were instructed to fire over their heads once they had offloaded; until the planes got some distance.
 
Re: Prissy Afghans: go buy your own AKs then?

Training Afghans to shoot is a different animal every day you take them to the range. They get the rifle zeroed, move to the line and maybe hit 4 out of 20 on a target 50M away. They come back the next day, fiddle with their sights because the rifle didn't shoot good and miss every shot because the rifle is no good. We rezero the rifle, take them off the line, teach the rifleman's basic fundamentals once again, and they hit the target 5:20 or 10:20. The next day, it starts all over again because they cannot seem to grasp the fact that once a rifle is zeroed it needs to stay that way and all shooting problems are on YOU.
This is what I went through for a month while in OEF VII trying to qualify Afghan Nationals on AK47's with the assistance of the French FL, Polish MP's, and Michigan NG. Every single day, half the LN's would finger fuck their rifles and forget everything we taught them.