- Nov 3, 2010
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- Thread starter pitspitr
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Right think about that line of debate
The wind was different for me vs him so it's not fair, in an all-day match or even a 2-day match they want it the same, lol
As if ... again, Pathetic is a word
The wind was different for me vs him so it's not fair, in an all-day match or even a 2-day match they want it the same, lol
As if ... again, Pathetic is a word
People ruin everything fun. If I miss because the wind changes it’s because my dumbass messed up and rushed it, or wasn’t paying attention. Yeah it sucks if you had dead still air, and I have 10mph winds but that’s shooting rifles outdoors... also if I happened to beat them in that case it would look better on me.
I’d never win a prs comp not saying that, but I shoot my 22 in high wind at 100 for fun. I don’t know why everything hates the wind so much sometimes you do good, some times you leave and save ammo lol.
People blowing this way out of proportion.
The point was about KYL how a wind shift could kill your points. Thats it. No one else was bitching about wind outside of that context. Well no shit a wind shift will cause a miss. Thank you for stating the obvious like anyone who competes does not understand this dynamic.
Everyone else just conveniently ignores the part about how most shooters do not want to shoot KYL like the old days. The 5 people who seem to want it don't even shoot PRS.
No one said they hate the wind or any other BS. Context matters.
The point was about KYL how a wind shift could kill your points. Thats it. No one else was bitching about wind outside of that context. Well no shit a wind shift will cause a miss. Thank you for stating the obvious like anyone who competes does not understand this dynamic.
Everyone else just conveniently ignores the part about how most shooters do not want to shoot KYL like the old days. The 5 people who seem to want it don't even shoot PRS.
No one said they hate the wind or any other BS. Context matters.
Except you do sound like a whiney little girl. Just saying.
I shot many a true KYL and loved them, whether the wind was nice to me or not. I knew what my limits were most days and sometimes pushed it. Didn’t always work out, but I didn’t sit down and cry.
I just love it when the argument degenerates to calling everyone else a non-shooter. It shows that you’ve got no real argument and are just bitching. But hey, you be you Sunshine, you’re special and we wouldn’t have it any other way.
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This is another example of people taking shit too seriously and being Uber competitive over peanuts.
You’re not gonna win a truck or $100k @ a match. And never will no matter what we do. It’s just not that type of industry. Not spectator friendly and it’s guns. Big money ain’t gonna touch it.
I get the argument about big swings in points and losing or winning off some luck or lack thereof.
However, why worry so damn much if this ain’t for anything except bragging rights and a prize you could just buy anyone. Guys paying $2k in expenses and worried about a $1500 prize.
Same thing with mulligans. Maybe it was a gimmick, maybe not. But, why give such a fuck about it? Same guys still winning.
The latest rule, even in a regional club match…..if someone scored over 60% in two matches, you’re not allowed to help them on the clock.
It’s easy as fuck to luck into 60% a few times and still be pretty awful.
And now, because people complained, the mid pack and lower get penalized. I’ve already told MD’s, if someone is struggling on a stage and they ain’t in the possibility of placing high, you’re just gonna have to DQ me.
I’m not gonna just let a guy sit on an island and struggle cause he shot 60% a few times. I’ve seen guys who have 20+ matches and still need help.
This is why I abandoned my aspirations running matches and possibly a new league. The way leagues make money is a losing strategy…..and the vocal minority (usually not your top performers either) cry about matches that literally mean nothing in the long run.
I’d probably agree with some of it if you can make a living at this. Until then, just stfu already and shoot.
You’re not gonna win a truck or $100k @ a match. And never will no matter what we do. It’s just not that type of industry. Not spectator friendly and it’s guns. Big money ain’t gonna touch it.
I get the argument about big swings in points and losing or winning off some luck or lack thereof.
However, why worry so damn much if this ain’t for anything except bragging rights and a prize you could just buy anyone. Guys paying $2k in expenses and worried about a $1500 prize.
Same thing with mulligans. Maybe it was a gimmick, maybe not. But, why give such a fuck about it? Same guys still winning.
The latest rule, even in a regional club match…..if someone scored over 60% in two matches, you’re not allowed to help them on the clock.
It’s easy as fuck to luck into 60% a few times and still be pretty awful.
And now, because people complained, the mid pack and lower get penalized. I’ve already told MD’s, if someone is struggling on a stage and they ain’t in the possibility of placing high, you’re just gonna have to DQ me.
I’m not gonna just let a guy sit on an island and struggle cause he shot 60% a few times. I’ve seen guys who have 20+ matches and still need help.
This is why I abandoned my aspirations running matches and possibly a new league. The way leagues make money is a losing strategy…..and the vocal minority (usually not your top performers either) cry about matches that literally mean nothing in the long run.
I’d probably agree with some of it if you can make a living at this. Until then, just stfu already and shoot.
Who said people are uber competitive? You are jumping to all kinds of conclusions that have nothing to do with whats being discussed.
At a 1 day match, a 12 point KYL is about 10% or more of your points. The difference between coming in 20th place or 50th place, or 1st and 15th. No one stage should swing someones placement that much unless they legitimate shit the bed and miss every shot.
Score 10 hits then the wind changes or you pull a bad shot, there goes all your points. Its fucking retarded and there is a reason NONE of the leagues do this shit anymore for the most part. NRL bolt gun before it tanked, BW, NRL22, PRS, PRS22, RTC, Oulaw ect.
When people are spending tens of thousands of dollars a year to shoot a sport, they will probably care a little more about it than drunk Sunday golf with the boys. For us the average 1 day match costs about $400 to shoot and the average 2 day is closer to $1K when you factor in ammo, travel, fees, hotels ect. People also have different ideas what is fun. If its not fun then there is no reason to shoot.
One of our Local MD's (3hrs away is closest) gives guys 2:30 minutes for their first 4 matches. Then it drops down to 2minutes. No one is giving people help on the clock unless they are new. Certainly no one shooting 50+% should be getting help on the clock. Maybe its different in other regions but in the PNW that shit doesn't fly.
The irony is people are saying no big deal with KYL, you take the risk and lose your points, own every shot, ect...........have no issues with mulligans LOL.
At a 1 day match, a 12 point KYL is about 10% or more of your points. The difference between coming in 20th place or 50th place, or 1st and 15th. No one stage should swing someones placement that much unless they legitimate shit the bed and miss every shot.
Score 10 hits then the wind changes or you pull a bad shot, there goes all your points. Its fucking retarded and there is a reason NONE of the leagues do this shit anymore for the most part. NRL bolt gun before it tanked, BW, NRL22, PRS, PRS22, RTC, Oulaw ect.
When people are spending tens of thousands of dollars a year to shoot a sport, they will probably care a little more about it than drunk Sunday golf with the boys. For us the average 1 day match costs about $400 to shoot and the average 2 day is closer to $1K when you factor in ammo, travel, fees, hotels ect. People also have different ideas what is fun. If its not fun then there is no reason to shoot.
One of our Local MD's (3hrs away is closest) gives guys 2:30 minutes for their first 4 matches. Then it drops down to 2minutes. No one is giving people help on the clock unless they are new. Certainly no one shooting 50+% should be getting help on the clock. Maybe its different in other regions but in the PNW that shit doesn't fly.
The irony is people are saying no big deal with KYL, you take the risk and lose your points, own every shot, ect...........have no issues with mulligans LOL.
What match were we squadded together?
2 questions
1. When did competitions become focused on “fair”?
2. If you think competitions should be fair then define what “fair” is to you.
1. When did competitions become focused on “fair”?
2. If you think competitions should be fair then define what “fair” is to you.
I like the "bank it" idea Frank was talking about, allows you to go for it and not risk the whole stage points. Would like to try one.
When those were run was the "bank" fairly generous or risky, if you missed the bank did you lose said points you were taking to the bank?
When those were run was the "bank" fairly generous or risky, if you missed the bank did you lose said points you were taking to the bank?
These are the same people that were raised on participation trophies and constant praise.
Having had very few opportunities to compete, I find the KYL intriguing. Certainly one would know when they should stop shooting but not have the good sense to due to the excitement of competition. Sounds like a LOT of fun to me, I can almost guarantee I would end up with a big fat zero for the stage and a smile on my face.
If I’m out shooting I’ll set up little bs challenges for myself shooting the KYL or something and I’ll start doing bad then I’m yelling “you fucking moron” “why do you suck so bad, idiot” but it’s a good time. I wonder if id do that out of habit at a Comp? Lol
- Nov 3, 2010
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Your not the only one that does that. Sometimes, you are your toughest competition
IMHO its human behaviour to want a hollywood ending when they are paying for "entertainment"...
Its a good discussion to have, as there are tradeoffs involved, context etc...
FWIW I don't think every aspect is black or white...
KYL is teaching shooters about "what is a 100% confident shot", and understanding one's weakensses.
Its a good discussion to have, as there are tradeoffs involved, context etc...
FWIW I don't think every aspect is black or white...
Wind is an equalizer, i shot in the wind today and sucked ass. Oh well, i will regroup and shoot next month.
Shit never stops here pretty much and it's never steady, it's fun/infuriating.
Wind here isn’t anything when compared to the plains states, but in any given match, we will have sometimes shift winds, sometimes fishtailing winds that sometimes change more than once within the short time it takes to shoot a long range stage. It can also be different for those that shoot at different times during the day. Meh. Them's truly the breaks and you learn to live with it…or not.
I suggested up a real KYL years ago…since a bunch of 60% shooters wanted to pop off about “know your limits” “make every shot count” “it’s a gamble” lol
Every trigger you pull is a gamble when you barely hit half of what you shoot at lol
You miss, you zero the match and go home
No one seemed to really be about it
Every trigger you pull is a gamble when you barely hit half of what you shoot at lol
You miss, you zero the match and go home
No one seemed to really be about it
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It’s also interesting, I’ve never once seen someone ask to reshoot a stage when they shot it during no wind, but another squad got completely fucked via the wind on the same stage.
I mean, we care about fair right??
I mean, we care about fair right??
Yea, I’ve said that before also, missing should hurt…we thought about tryin it in local matches, but figured self squad ROs would make keeping up with the scores a mess and decided against it
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Agreed.
IMO there shouldn’t be a situation where the clock is running out and you’re better off sending a few shots in the hopes to picking up a point or three.
That should hurt.
IMO there shouldn’t be a situation where the clock is running out and you’re better off sending a few shots in the hopes to picking up a point or three.
That should hurt.
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You are too stupid to even realize my post wasn’t disagreeing with you. Or that it didn’t even present an opinion on whether or not a KYL is good or bad.
My point is, you morons keep complaining about retarded shit.
And you think however your region does it, the whole country should. Every region has people like this. “We don’t do that shit here.”
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GrOW tHe SpOrT!!!
Unless they can shoot 50%. Then fuck dem kids.
Unless they can shoot 50%. Then fuck dem kids.
Anyone that wants kyl is free to start your match and I’ll be there to show up. Not sure why there’s always bitching about a company running the way they want to run. Is this America? Can you not run your own shit? But running mouth is easier.
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Yet, here you are complaining about people who are free to complain or talk about whatever they want??
Also, bitching is how the company decides to possibly make decisions. So……
There are things you can control and those you can't.
People are being unreasonable and argumentative for the sake of it.
We can control the rules. We can control the props. We can't control mother nature.
I think just about everyone who competes wants it to be as fair as possible. That's the essence of competition and seeing how you stack up against everyone else.
Missing does hurt. That is why you don't get a point for a miss.
Its a sport/game with rules. Rules are there so everyone is on even playing field, as much can be done within reason and our control.
You also need people to show up and shoot. If its a bunch of weird gimmick shit and people aren't having fun, they won't come back. All of our 1 days be it PRS, BW or Outlaw have great turnouts and the rules are virtually the same.
Don't forget to remove your mag before moving on the clock. Real snipers must train this way...........
I shot a stage in a local 22 match today that used a KYL rack for 8 out the 10 shots. It wasn’t scored in the classic way though, so no previous hit points lost due to a later miss. I’ve shot stages that way too though. I don’t waste time getting upset about being put on the spot by conditions or decisions. Looks like I’ll probably be doing some MD work next year. I like stages that require thinking about strategy, especially if there are several different reasonable ways to attack and succeed. Having recently shot a match on the demanding side of the scale (kicked my mental ass before the first shot), I think stage design with a mix of doable hits for bottom 50%, along with a point or two that are very difficult, gets more volume of happiness (therefore return spending) from the bulk of the generic shooters. If your matches are always full of hardcores already, make it miserably tough.
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Also, as far is the Uber competitive…..that’s exactly what’s happening.
80% or more people shooting matches don’t have a chance winning. That means they are spending $1-2k for the equivalent of a day of golf drinking with buddys.
They aren’t winning a trophy and likely not a prize that’s worth much.
So, you’re not winning the or placing high at the match, and thusly, the odds say not taking a home a great prize.
So, what else is going to drive someone to complain about mulligans, kyl’s, and helping other shooters??
The top guys before any changes were the top guys after all the changes.
So, pray tell, what other reason besides caring too much and being too competitive without being to win is motivating people to complain?
It’s either being too competitive (yet not actually becoming good enough to win) or just complaining to complain.
80% or more people shooting matches don’t have a chance winning. That means they are spending $1-2k for the equivalent of a day of golf drinking with buddys.
They aren’t winning a trophy and likely not a prize that’s worth much.
So, you’re not winning the or placing high at the match, and thusly, the odds say not taking a home a great prize.
So, what else is going to drive someone to complain about mulligans, kyl’s, and helping other shooters??
The top guys before any changes were the top guys after all the changes.
So, pray tell, what other reason besides caring too much and being too competitive without being to win is motivating people to complain?
It’s either being too competitive (yet not actually becoming good enough to win) or just complaining to complain.
I don't know man. Everyone has different skills levels. The guys winning generally been doing this a long time and shoot alot. You have guys who have plateaued and a bunch of younger/newer shooters trying to get to that level.
Not everyone shoots for same reason. Some are ultra competitive and want to win, some want to hang out with the boys, Some want to get away from wife/kids and some people just like to shoot. Some want to learn how to get better at LR and it could be argued shooting matches is the cheapest training you can get and still be effective.
Are people not allowed to voice their opinions about how to make the sport/game better or things they would like to change? Or are only certain people allowed to bitch and complain?
Also, I never said how my region does it is how everyone else should. I was just sharing an example of how it is here.
Not everyone shoots for same reason. Some are ultra competitive and want to win, some want to hang out with the boys, Some want to get away from wife/kids and some people just like to shoot. Some want to learn how to get better at LR and it could be argued shooting matches is the cheapest training you can get and still be effective.
Are people not allowed to voice their opinions about how to make the sport/game better or things they would like to change? Or are only certain people allowed to bitch and complain?
Also, I never said how my region does it is how everyone else should. I was just sharing an example of how it is here.
KYL is valuable because it teches people when not to shoot. Precisely because everything is not in your control.
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I zero'd a KYL at a match yesterday....... Was super disappointing but I can't complain. I knew the rules of the game going in.
It's probably more like 75%, and they better shoot at least 3 2 day matches.
The classifications should be:
Pro
Semi-pro
Amateur
Unwashed peasant (this would be the category I fall into)
I thought that category was for those of us not in the "suppressor only" squads...
I was told only 3 things get you in that squad. Jersey, Suppressor, and a tweaked Ford Raptor.
Don't forget the last class:
People smart enough to not give the PRS money to keep their scores. LOL
Can there be a class for Poors who have semi fancy rifles? Mine is pretty confused.
Dead Air suppressor
$1000 scope(cheap these days)
Fancy chassis
Factory 700 action
Brux Barrel
Cheap rings
$$$ bipod
Clamp on bolt knob
Fancy trigger
Call it Tasteful Poors or something
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if it becomes required to be a PRS member to shoot a 2 day match. So far, PRS leadership if following along
with everything the USTRC did several years ago.
Sure, why not.
I want to start PRS but that would screw me. I'd barely be able to move the second day or half way through the first.
Half cripple problems lol. I'll get me a rifle Sherpa like The German
That's taken, we are original around here.
Don't listen to all the naysayers.
You aren't even required to have a membership to shoot one day matches. Bunch of people don't even shoot or compete bitching about the league. And honestly, who gives a shit about the membership. I paid $150 this year for PRS regional/ Pro Gun & Rimfire. Many of the guys who shoot are spending over $10K a year on this sport, $150 is a rounding error. Anyone bitching about buying a membership is bitching about pocket change.
PRS has its issues and problems but for the vast majority of people, they go out and shoot and have fun.
There is a guy with no leggs that shoots and tons of older guys. Just sign up and go shoot. Let the squad know you are new and people will bend over backwards to help you with advice and borrowing gear. Most of the matches out west you can drive a atv/utv or even your car/truck to each stage.
Missing the point. Not about the amount of money but where it’s going and for what. You want to give $1 to Mothers against Guns? Nope. Don’t assume it’s the amount. You don’t need to join to go shoot and have fun.
I'd say you are correct as I'm the guy who gets to do 1 a year or possibly 2 if the stars align. Of course these are local matches but everyone has been very welcoming and its as serious or fun as one wants to make it. However, I have not had the chance to shoot a KYL stage and would very much like to.
Damn the naysayers and those who take it too seriously - If the wind changes, so be it. Any event that is outdoors is subject to the same problems. The ELR and KO2M guys have the same issues, those who are lucky get to shoot earlier in typically less windy conditions but the competition continues whether the wind picks up or not - fair is not a factor that can consider weather conditions, only the competitor and their equipment.
As others have alluded to, the matches should be more of an experience/destination than simply a repeat of the same stages over and over - if the goal is to get more interest and participation. You already have those that want to do it every weekend participating now. Even if the KYL were a bonus or sponsored stage for a door prize that required a buy in I would throw in every time... And probably zero every time too.
