I have several bolt guns and was thinking of getting a PS90. What are your opinions on them? How accurate are they?
PS90
- Thread starter TravisB
- Start date
Re: PS90
If you want one then get it you won't hate yourself for buying one. There is one in the for sale adds here for a good price.
The only thing I don't like is the triggers. The gun is so light on recoil and just fun as hell to shoot. I am sure more people will add what they like and don't like about them. Let us know what you decide.
If you want one then get it you won't hate yourself for buying one. There is one in the for sale adds here for a good price.
The only thing I don't like is the triggers. The gun is so light on recoil and just fun as hell to shoot. I am sure more people will add what they like and don't like about them. Let us know what you decide.
Re: PS90
Strange summed it up. It's fun to shoot, and really you don't need a better reason.
My only complaints have been that it's overpriced, but there's pleanty of used ones out there these days. And that the ammo is costly and uncommon. The ammo is still not terribly common but the cost part has been mitigated somewhat because all ammo is more expensive these days and 5.7mm hasn't really gone up. So it's not really cheaper to shoot it's just not that much more expensive than your other options.
If a fun blowback plinker is all you're searching for a S&W M&P15-22 is a great gun and you can shoot it all day for a few bucks.
If a good pistol caliber subgun is on the menu the PS90 isn't a bad choice and neither is a USC/UMP conversion.
Strange summed it up. It's fun to shoot, and really you don't need a better reason.
My only complaints have been that it's overpriced, but there's pleanty of used ones out there these days. And that the ammo is costly and uncommon. The ammo is still not terribly common but the cost part has been mitigated somewhat because all ammo is more expensive these days and 5.7mm hasn't really gone up. So it's not really cheaper to shoot it's just not that much more expensive than your other options.
If a fun blowback plinker is all you're searching for a S&W M&P15-22 is a great gun and you can shoot it all day for a few bucks.
If a good pistol caliber subgun is on the menu the PS90 isn't a bad choice and neither is a USC/UMP conversion.
Re: PS90
I have one and I love it. They are fun to shoot and now a days it is the same cost as 223. I buy my ammo from dansammo.com and it is $349 per thousand. This is the V max ammo. Factory 50 rd mags are about $35 from cdnn investments. I would not buy the one with factory sights though. Just get the Tri-rail and mount an eotech. The factory sights are to narrow.
I have one and I love it. They are fun to shoot and now a days it is the same cost as 223. I buy my ammo from dansammo.com and it is $349 per thousand. This is the V max ammo. Factory 50 rd mags are about $35 from cdnn investments. I would not buy the one with factory sights though. Just get the Tri-rail and mount an eotech. The factory sights are to narrow.
Re: PS90
I was gung-ho to get one until I fired one. Major let down. It's very innovative and the engineering involved is top notch. The biggest disappointment was the caliber itself. I put around 200 rounds down range. Very accurate with almost zero recoil.The down range performance was lacking. As a select fire weapon it would do a LOT better but to be honest I would rather have a 10-22 with good mags than the PS90.
That being said if someone wants one then grab one but after firing one I knew it was not for me.
I was gung-ho to get one until I fired one. Major let down. It's very innovative and the engineering involved is top notch. The biggest disappointment was the caliber itself. I put around 200 rounds down range. Very accurate with almost zero recoil.The down range performance was lacking. As a select fire weapon it would do a LOT better but to be honest I would rather have a 10-22 with good mags than the PS90.
That being said if someone wants one then grab one but after firing one I knew it was not for me.
Re: PS90
Make sure you are getting one as a toy. Not as a defensive weapon.
Lots of guys get all butthurt when I say that, but talk to any of the departments that have actually deployed them and had to take down a target with them. And that IS with the select fire version.
They do look cool as hell though. If I was going for that kind of package I would just go with a PS2000. Same cool look, but a combat proven cartridge.
Make sure you are getting one as a toy. Not as a defensive weapon.
Lots of guys get all butthurt when I say that, but talk to any of the departments that have actually deployed them and had to take down a target with them. And that IS with the select fire version.
They do look cool as hell though. If I was going for that kind of package I would just go with a PS2000. Same cool look, but a combat proven cartridge.
Re: PS90
The PS90 would make IMHO one of the best SBR rifles you could ever own. Ammo is actually on par or cheaper than 5.56mm and it was available during the recent ammo scare. It is a PDW and will perform as such. Hell of a good time to shoot! Buy one. Then put an Aimpoint Micro or small red dot like a Dr. Optics on it. Then send in the paperwork and SBR that bad boy.
The PS90 would make IMHO one of the best SBR rifles you could ever own. Ammo is actually on par or cheaper than 5.56mm and it was available during the recent ammo scare. It is a PDW and will perform as such. Hell of a good time to shoot! Buy one. Then put an Aimpoint Micro or small red dot like a Dr. Optics on it. Then send in the paperwork and SBR that bad boy.
Re: PS90
The PS90 is an awesome versatile rifle. It is quick, ambidextrous, light, holds a ton of ammo, and has no recoil. The trigger does feel like a toy though. You can strip the 16" barreled version down into 2 pieces in less than a second, and pack that shit up in a backpack or whatever. I put an aimpoint micro and a surefire x400 on mine.
The PS90 is an awesome versatile rifle. It is quick, ambidextrous, light, holds a ton of ammo, and has no recoil. The trigger does feel like a toy though. You can strip the 16" barreled version down into 2 pieces in less than a second, and pack that shit up in a backpack or whatever. I put an aimpoint micro and a surefire x400 on mine.
Re: PS90
HEy guys. I have also been looking to up the collection with a PS90 but I have not seen much for testing reviews. I build AR's as a hobby and I recently put one on the Cheaper than Dirt free classifieds to get either money or trade for one. It's decked out big time and is well worth the value. Am I screwing up here? I just want some new toys in my toy box that all the other kids on my block don't have. Any other suggestions?
HEy guys. I have also been looking to up the collection with a PS90 but I have not seen much for testing reviews. I build AR's as a hobby and I recently put one on the Cheaper than Dirt free classifieds to get either money or trade for one. It's decked out big time and is well worth the value. Am I screwing up here? I just want some new toys in my toy box that all the other kids on my block don't have. Any other suggestions?
Re: PS90
The PS90 IS a toy.
YMMV.
Look around and see if you can find one to fire. Once you get past the "wow" looks factor its a let down. I have owned a lot of high end toys and the PS90 was the biggest let down of them all.
I would take any AR configuration over the PS90.
The PS90 IS a toy.
YMMV.
Look around and see if you can find one to fire. Once you get past the "wow" looks factor its a let down. I have owned a lot of high end toys and the PS90 was the biggest let down of them all.
I would take any AR configuration over the PS90.
Re: PS90
I dont know if I would go so far as to call it a toy but its scope is narrow. Much more so if you are restricted to civy ammo. There are a number of shootings on the books now with it and it seems to do its job in most cases which can be said for just about any firearm out there. The trouble seems to surface if it is not understood that this is not a replacement for a rifle. Within its scope it can be very usefull.
I dont know if I would go so far as to call it a toy but its scope is narrow. Much more so if you are restricted to civy ammo. There are a number of shootings on the books now with it and it seems to do its job in most cases which can be said for just about any firearm out there. The trouble seems to surface if it is not understood that this is not a replacement for a rifle. Within its scope it can be very usefull.
Re: PS90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a number of shootings on the books now with it and it seems to do its job in most cases which can be said for just about any firearm out there.</div></div>
Who, where and when.
I would be more than happy to contact the departments and request an AAR from the shoot.
I have not seen any where a P90 or PS90 was used with favorable results. The last one I heard of probably would have been a fatal, but it was not an incapacitating shot. A .308 to the CNS finished the job.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are a number of shootings on the books now with it and it seems to do its job in most cases which can be said for just about any firearm out there.</div></div>
Who, where and when.
I would be more than happy to contact the departments and request an AAR from the shoot.
I have not seen any where a P90 or PS90 was used with favorable results. The last one I heard of probably would have been a fatal, but it was not an incapacitating shot. A .308 to the CNS finished the job.
Re: PS90
If I was going to pick a bullpup design I would go with the Styer AUG in a heartbeat over the PS90. I like the AUG but not enough to bring one home. The .223 is IMHO is much more effective than the FN round. It's true the military ammo has great penetration but it's still a lack luster round.
I have not followed many actual shootings but I vaguely remember an entry team shooting where a burst was fired with torso hits and the assailant was standing there like nothing happened. Shotguns rule at this distance. Other stories have floated around that in real shooting it's a 50/50 success rate of the person going down or just standing there looking back at you.
I REALLY do like the concept and engineering involved and the general package. The caliber itself is the big turn off for me. I am 6'3" @ 245 and the PS90 handles like an air soft gun. There is little feedback when firing if it's running or not. Down range performance is pretty anemic.
If I was going to pick a bullpup design I would go with the Styer AUG in a heartbeat over the PS90. I like the AUG but not enough to bring one home. The .223 is IMHO is much more effective than the FN round. It's true the military ammo has great penetration but it's still a lack luster round.
I have not followed many actual shootings but I vaguely remember an entry team shooting where a burst was fired with torso hits and the assailant was standing there like nothing happened. Shotguns rule at this distance. Other stories have floated around that in real shooting it's a 50/50 success rate of the person going down or just standing there looking back at you.
I REALLY do like the concept and engineering involved and the general package. The caliber itself is the big turn off for me. I am 6'3" @ 245 and the PS90 handles like an air soft gun. There is little feedback when firing if it's running or not. Down range performance is pretty anemic.
Re: PS90
Get an AR57!!! They're a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER and more well made IMHO. You have the versatility of an ar15 with a $650-$700 upper and the rest being a regular ar15 lower. Still takes the p90 50 round mags top-loading. A much better value to build a $900 AR57 rifle with a monolithic aluminum upper than a $1800 plastic p90...
Get an AR57!!! They're a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER and more well made IMHO. You have the versatility of an ar15 with a $650-$700 upper and the rest being a regular ar15 lower. Still takes the p90 50 round mags top-loading. A much better value to build a $900 AR57 rifle with a monolithic aluminum upper than a $1800 plastic p90...
Re: PS90
Houston SWAT 1999
Also
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072403/met_13102142.shtml
Here is some info from FiveSeven forum.
"- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. The SB193 subsonic was not (to my knowledge) introduced until 1999.
- Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.
- The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."
- Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.
- Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.
- Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.
- I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."
- Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.
- Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.
- I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.
Those are most of the shooting details I have. The others are too vague to draw much from. I do know that a PD in South Carolina (not sure specifically which department, as there are several PDs in SC using the P90) has shot multiple BGs with it. I wouldn't say there have been enough shootings to date to conclusively prove that the 5.7x28 is adequate, but the shootings we're aware of certainly give more likelihood/probability that the round will turn out. This thread might also interest you -- it contains a list of US agencies using the P90 and/or Five-seveN."
"- Firstly, of the Houston SWAT shooting it is often claimed that Sandy Wall works or has worked for FNH USA. This is false. Secondly, it is claimed that since this shooting involved 5.56 rounds also hitting the subject, it isn't a legitimate case for the 5.7x28mm. However, not only did the article author state that "The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets" and then "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well", but it has also been stated elsewhere that the 5.56 rounds impacted IIRC on the hands/arms of the subject.
- The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit.
- I'm aware of another incident in 2002 where a 5.7 round ricocheted and struck a Duluth, GA police officer in the hip, injuring her. Some try to cite this as a case where the round 'failed to stop'. "
Bellevue, NE SWAT killed a pit bull in 2003 during a drug raid; it was shot with two rounds of SS190 out of a Five-seveN pistol. I know of five deer being killed by one of our members with a Five-seveN, none of them taking more than one round. One of our members has used his Five-seveN to kill small/medium-sized hogs (see that thread here) as well as another member that has used his Five-seveN with handloads on badger, fox, deer and rabbits (see that here) with good results. All of these cases were with civilian ammunition or handloads, except for the Belleview, NE incident.
Keep in mind, these cases were the performance of the rounds out of the shorter pistol barrel, out of the P90's 10-inch barrel, or the PS90's 16-inch barrel, performance will be even better. Between the Five-seveN and P90, there is a velocity difference of about 200 fps. SS190 averages about 2100 fps out of the Five-seveN, and 2350 fps out of the P90. The PS90 (civilian version of the P90) gives about a solid 225 fps increase over the standard P90, meaning it will give about 2600 fps with the better ammo types -- SS190, SS192, SS195.
Also, for any worried that SS192/SS195 performance will not parallel SS190 performance, please note that the tissue damage and penetration of the two in testing is virtually equal. Both yaw with no expansion or fragmentation, and gel penetration is identical in testing done by Ammolab's David Difabio."
Houston SWAT 1999
Also
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072403/met_13102142.shtml
Here is some info from FiveSeven forum.
"- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident. The SB193 subsonic was not (to my knowledge) introduced until 1999.
- Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.
- The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."
- Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.
- Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.
- Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.
- I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."
- Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.
- Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.
- I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.
Those are most of the shooting details I have. The others are too vague to draw much from. I do know that a PD in South Carolina (not sure specifically which department, as there are several PDs in SC using the P90) has shot multiple BGs with it. I wouldn't say there have been enough shootings to date to conclusively prove that the 5.7x28 is adequate, but the shootings we're aware of certainly give more likelihood/probability that the round will turn out. This thread might also interest you -- it contains a list of US agencies using the P90 and/or Five-seveN."
"- Firstly, of the Houston SWAT shooting it is often claimed that Sandy Wall works or has worked for FNH USA. This is false. Secondly, it is claimed that since this shooting involved 5.56 rounds also hitting the subject, it isn't a legitimate case for the 5.7x28mm. However, not only did the article author state that "The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets" and then "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well", but it has also been stated elsewhere that the 5.56 rounds impacted IIRC on the hands/arms of the subject.
- The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit.
- I'm aware of another incident in 2002 where a 5.7 round ricocheted and struck a Duluth, GA police officer in the hip, injuring her. Some try to cite this as a case where the round 'failed to stop'. "
Bellevue, NE SWAT killed a pit bull in 2003 during a drug raid; it was shot with two rounds of SS190 out of a Five-seveN pistol. I know of five deer being killed by one of our members with a Five-seveN, none of them taking more than one round. One of our members has used his Five-seveN to kill small/medium-sized hogs (see that thread here) as well as another member that has used his Five-seveN with handloads on badger, fox, deer and rabbits (see that here) with good results. All of these cases were with civilian ammunition or handloads, except for the Belleview, NE incident.
Keep in mind, these cases were the performance of the rounds out of the shorter pistol barrel, out of the P90's 10-inch barrel, or the PS90's 16-inch barrel, performance will be even better. Between the Five-seveN and P90, there is a velocity difference of about 200 fps. SS190 averages about 2100 fps out of the Five-seveN, and 2350 fps out of the P90. The PS90 (civilian version of the P90) gives about a solid 225 fps increase over the standard P90, meaning it will give about 2600 fps with the better ammo types -- SS190, SS192, SS195.
Also, for any worried that SS192/SS195 performance will not parallel SS190 performance, please note that the tissue damage and penetration of the two in testing is virtually equal. Both yaw with no expansion or fragmentation, and gel penetration is identical in testing done by Ammolab's David Difabio."
Re: PS90
Personal I would rather use my .22 Hornet.
( I have bagged deer with it also,its shot placement)
If your using a 5.7 go for a head shot.
A copy / paste from Dr. Marvin Fackler-
I reprint this letter (American Rifleman, Jan 2000, p. 4) from Dr. Marvin Fackler:
"The article 'FN's FiveseveN System (No.v/Dec. 1999 p.40) seriously misrepresents the wounding capacity of the 31-gr. P90 bullet. Claiming it "produces a wound cavity that is similar to that of the 5.56 mm NATO ammunition is an absurd exaggeration. The 31-gr. P90 bullet has only half the weight of the M16A2 bullet - and its velocity is about 1000 f.p.s. less. (The reference was intended to convey that it is an FMJ design, not that it has equal energy and wounding characteristics to the 5.56x45 mm cartridge. - The Eds).
The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.
The light recoil of the P90 should hardly come as a surprise: The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. The laws of physics cannot be denied - minimal recoil is inconsistent with maximal tissue disruption.
For the military, where any wound is often all that is required to cause an enemy soldier to leave the battlefield, perhaps this tiny P90 bullet is OK. Law enforcement officers are often faced with armed violent criminals at close range. In that scenario, a bullet capable of disrupting a significant amount of tissue is needed: One must incapacitate a criminal, a minor wound will not suffice. By no stretch of the imagination is the P90 bullet adequate for that task.
References for further reading in the Wound Ballistics Review are: Vol. 3, No. 3, 1998 (pp. 36-37) 'Corrections on the Wound Ballistics of the current FN P90 bullet'; Vol. 3, No. 1, 1997 (pp. 44-45) "more on the bizarre FN P90'; and Vol. 1., No. 1, 1991 (p. 46) 'Description of the first generation P90.' These may be obtained from the IWBA by calling (310) 640-6065, or its website at www.IWBA.com.
Marvin L. Fackler, MD, FACS,
President, Int'l Wound Ballistics Ass'n.
The 5.7 was designed primarily for a military and special operations role, not as a duty cartridge for typical law enforcement officers
Personal I would rather use my .22 Hornet.
( I have bagged deer with it also,its shot placement)
If your using a 5.7 go for a head shot.
A copy / paste from Dr. Marvin Fackler-
I reprint this letter (American Rifleman, Jan 2000, p. 4) from Dr. Marvin Fackler:
"The article 'FN's FiveseveN System (No.v/Dec. 1999 p.40) seriously misrepresents the wounding capacity of the 31-gr. P90 bullet. Claiming it "produces a wound cavity that is similar to that of the 5.56 mm NATO ammunition is an absurd exaggeration. The 31-gr. P90 bullet has only half the weight of the M16A2 bullet - and its velocity is about 1000 f.p.s. less. (The reference was intended to convey that it is an FMJ design, not that it has equal energy and wounding characteristics to the 5.56x45 mm cartridge. - The Eds).
The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.
The light recoil of the P90 should hardly come as a surprise: The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. The laws of physics cannot be denied - minimal recoil is inconsistent with maximal tissue disruption.
For the military, where any wound is often all that is required to cause an enemy soldier to leave the battlefield, perhaps this tiny P90 bullet is OK. Law enforcement officers are often faced with armed violent criminals at close range. In that scenario, a bullet capable of disrupting a significant amount of tissue is needed: One must incapacitate a criminal, a minor wound will not suffice. By no stretch of the imagination is the P90 bullet adequate for that task.
References for further reading in the Wound Ballistics Review are: Vol. 3, No. 3, 1998 (pp. 36-37) 'Corrections on the Wound Ballistics of the current FN P90 bullet'; Vol. 3, No. 1, 1997 (pp. 44-45) "more on the bizarre FN P90'; and Vol. 1., No. 1, 1991 (p. 46) 'Description of the first generation P90.' These may be obtained from the IWBA by calling (310) 640-6065, or its website at www.IWBA.com.
Marvin L. Fackler, MD, FACS,
President, Int'l Wound Ballistics Ass'n.
The 5.7 was designed primarily for a military and special operations role, not as a duty cartridge for typical law enforcement officers
Re: PS90
marduk, thats an apples oranges comparison. Im not here to defend the PS90/5.7 . I simply point out that it has its place even if its a narrow one. For my civilian roles I would rather have a PS90 that was small enough to get tucked away and brought than an A10 sitting at home. And in some cases I would rather have it than a handgun. Enough people succumb to .22lr rounds to hold a belief the 5.7 cant be effective...
marduk, thats an apples oranges comparison. Im not here to defend the PS90/5.7 . I simply point out that it has its place even if its a narrow one. For my civilian roles I would rather have a PS90 that was small enough to get tucked away and brought than an A10 sitting at home. And in some cases I would rather have it than a handgun. Enough people succumb to .22lr rounds to hold a belief the 5.7 cant be effective...
Re: PS90
Anyone defending the 5.7 round as an effective combat cartridge is either a shill for eliteammo or an idiotic fanboy.
Anyone defending the 5.7 round as an effective combat cartridge is either a shill for eliteammo or an idiotic fanboy.
Re: PS90
Faler, clarify your statement please. Do you mean to say combat as in an infantry role or do you mean in any role. Because if you mean infantry you would be correct but my question would be who made that claim?
Faler, clarify your statement please. Do you mean to say combat as in an infantry role or do you mean in any role. Because if you mean infantry you would be correct but my question would be who made that claim?
Re: PS90
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Faler, clarify your statement please. Do you mean to say combat as in an infantry role or do you mean in any role. Because if you mean infantry you would be correct but my question would be who made that claim? </div></div>
No one in this thread, at least not yet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Faler, clarify your statement please. Do you mean to say combat as in an infantry role or do you mean in any role. Because if you mean infantry you would be correct but my question would be who made that claim? </div></div>
No one in this thread, at least not yet.
Re: PS90
If I might throw an additional question into this discussion. I am also considering adding a PS90 into my collection but I have also looked at the MSAR. I have all of the AR's, AK's and .308 rifles I can handle and I just want something different to add some flavor. Anyone in here played with both for a comparison? Not looking for a debate on the rounds they fire but the actual weapon system themselves.
If I might throw an additional question into this discussion. I am also considering adding a PS90 into my collection but I have also looked at the MSAR. I have all of the AR's, AK's and .308 rifles I can handle and I just want something different to add some flavor. Anyone in here played with both for a comparison? Not looking for a debate on the rounds they fire but the actual weapon system themselves.
Re: PS90
I want to get a PS90 also.Like you say...for the flavor.
The MSAR I have I've been extremely impressed with.It's not as accurate as my AR but has been super reliable.It handles and points like no other gun I've owned.I bought it to try it and then resell but I can't talk myself into letting it go
Steve
I want to get a PS90 also.Like you say...for the flavor.
The MSAR I have I've been extremely impressed with.It's not as accurate as my AR but has been super reliable.It handles and points like no other gun I've owned.I bought it to try it and then resell but I can't talk myself into letting it go
Steve
Re: PS90
Yeah this is getting to be a toughy choice. I build my own AR's and got plenty of them so I am selling one off for this new toy but cannot bring myself to a decision as of yet. Oh well I am sure it will come to me. At least I have until the gun sells to figure it out. It sounds like both are pretty reliable. The MSAR uses the caliber of my AR's plus I read in another post it takes their mags but the PS90 is just a whole different animal that really adds something new to the kit and when you run with a bunch of friends that love gunning it can bring the ooohs and aaahs to have the unique toy in the bunch.
Yeah this is getting to be a toughy choice. I build my own AR's and got plenty of them so I am selling one off for this new toy but cannot bring myself to a decision as of yet. Oh well I am sure it will come to me. At least I have until the gun sells to figure it out. It sounds like both are pretty reliable. The MSAR uses the caliber of my AR's plus I read in another post it takes their mags but the PS90 is just a whole different animal that really adds something new to the kit and when you run with a bunch of friends that love gunning it can bring the ooohs and aaahs to have the unique toy in the bunch.
Re: PS90
I guess it depends on what you want and how you plan to use it.
The PS90 has an effective range of about 220 yards, my 7.62 AK has an effective range of about 450 yards and my M14s have an effective range of about 900 yards. I like the PS90 and have checked into owning one (I have 3 NIB 50 round mags), but it sure would limit my effective range here on the farm.
I guess it depends on what you want and how you plan to use it.
The PS90 has an effective range of about 220 yards, my 7.62 AK has an effective range of about 450 yards and my M14s have an effective range of about 900 yards. I like the PS90 and have checked into owning one (I have 3 NIB 50 round mags), but it sure would limit my effective range here on the farm.
Re: PS90
I plan on it being just as it is designed for, a carbine. I have plenty of different range weapons so that is not my concern. I am just trying to not only figure the best value for the money but also the most reliable and longer lasting of the two. For the money put into both of them I want to make sure I am making the right choice. I am pretty heavy loaded in my collection and I build or customize most of my guns and these two are just a couple of guns I have never personally handled. I am selling one of my M4 length AR's that I have dumped a lot of bucks into in order to get something new in the vault and I don't want to sell a good reliable gun that I like and turn up with one I am cussing that I bought.
I plan on it being just as it is designed for, a carbine. I have plenty of different range weapons so that is not my concern. I am just trying to not only figure the best value for the money but also the most reliable and longer lasting of the two. For the money put into both of them I want to make sure I am making the right choice. I am pretty heavy loaded in my collection and I build or customize most of my guns and these two are just a couple of guns I have never personally handled. I am selling one of my M4 length AR's that I have dumped a lot of bucks into in order to get something new in the vault and I don't want to sell a good reliable gun that I like and turn up with one I am cussing that I bought.
Re: PS90
Another + for it. If you have kids, its great for that too! I have a pretty good cross section like yourself. AR's FAL's etc etc. He just cant reach properly with AR's. I even got a ruger 10/22 for my son but I can easily see I need to cut the stock back for him to suitibly shoulder the rifle. The PS90 fits him really well and of course he gets a big thrill out of shooting the rifle he plays with in his video games.
Another + for it. If you have kids, its great for that too! I have a pretty good cross section like yourself. AR's FAL's etc etc. He just cant reach properly with AR's. I even got a ruger 10/22 for my son but I can easily see I need to cut the stock back for him to suitibly shoulder the rifle. The PS90 fits him really well and of course he gets a big thrill out of shooting the rifle he plays with in his video games.
Re: PS90
Lol yeah I know the feeling. I have two boys myself and the oldest boy is pretty good sized and does not have a problem handling a lot of the guns I shoot but his younger brother is just a smaller framed kid and it was heck finding any gun to fit him. Finally I got him one of those Cricket .22s and he loves it, but he still gets mad that he just does not have the reach yet for any other guns.
Lol yeah I know the feeling. I have two boys myself and the oldest boy is pretty good sized and does not have a problem handling a lot of the guns I shoot but his younger brother is just a smaller framed kid and it was heck finding any gun to fit him. Finally I got him one of those Cricket .22s and he loves it, but he still gets mad that he just does not have the reach yet for any other guns.
Re: PS90
I finally got a chance to shoot the PS90. It was a fun gun to shoot, but didn't impress me enough to spend $1700 on one. I'm going to put that money in a AR-15. I think I can get a lot more for a lot less in that platform.
Thanks for the help.
I finally got a chance to shoot the PS90. It was a fun gun to shoot, but didn't impress me enough to spend $1700 on one. I'm going to put that money in a AR-15. I think I can get a lot more for a lot less in that platform.
Thanks for the help.
Re: PS90
I don't disagree AR's are a good gun, I have 3 of them and have built a dozen or more in different configurations. Thats one reason I am looking towards the MSAR or PS90 I just want something different in the kit. Getting real bored with just AR's.
I don't disagree AR's are a good gun, I have 3 of them and have built a dozen or more in different configurations. Thats one reason I am looking towards the MSAR or PS90 I just want something different in the kit. Getting real bored with just AR's.
Re: PS90
I dont need another AR. Got plenty. As for the MSAR, I just dont think they are going to be around much longer... As for the PS90, anyone willing to get shot with my toy??? Id rather take a hit from a 9 than a 5.7. Been shooting IDPA lately and theres 1 guy that shoots a 5.7 pistol. Everyone ducks for cover when he's up. It hits the steel back angle plate with enough energy that fragments come foward, ricochets off the ground and zing people!
I dont need another AR. Got plenty. As for the MSAR, I just dont think they are going to be around much longer... As for the PS90, anyone willing to get shot with my toy??? Id rather take a hit from a 9 than a 5.7. Been shooting IDPA lately and theres 1 guy that shoots a 5.7 pistol. Everyone ducks for cover when he's up. It hits the steel back angle plate with enough energy that fragments come foward, ricochets off the ground and zing people!
Re: PS90
I agree with you. I think people under rate the 5.7. I sure as hell wouldnt puff my chest out to one pointing at me. I have heard the tumble on those things when they hit is wicked.
I agree with you. I think people under rate the 5.7. I sure as hell wouldnt puff my chest out to one pointing at me. I have heard the tumble on those things when they hit is wicked.
Re: PS90
To each their own but ballistics and physics do not lie. If the idea of the .22 magnum cartridge is your idea of a great cartridge then the PS90 is your wet dream weapon. I love the engineering and mechanics of the weapon but the cartridge is a huge let down when used in the field and firing at live or material targets.
A 9mm beats it hands down for permanent wound cavitation and it's not highly regarded as a real man stopper either.
The writing is from M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
"The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.
The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. .
Dr.Gary Robbers-
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:
––Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
––Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
––Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
––FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice––Federal Bureau of Investigation.
––Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
––Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound––and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons––after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.
It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP––even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.
To each their own but ballistics and physics do not lie. If the idea of the .22 magnum cartridge is your idea of a great cartridge then the PS90 is your wet dream weapon. I love the engineering and mechanics of the weapon but the cartridge is a huge let down when used in the field and firing at live or material targets.
A 9mm beats it hands down for permanent wound cavitation and it's not highly regarded as a real man stopper either.
The writing is from M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
"The amount of tissue disruption propduced by the P90 bullet is less than one-third of that produced by a well-designed expanding 9x19mm handgun bullet. And the P90 produces a temporary cavity of only about 8cm diameter - smaller than that of an expanding 9mm handgun bullet. Most of the P90's bullet's wounding potential is wasted in producing a temporary cavity that is too small to be a reliable wounding mechanism. The P90 bullet doesn't even come close to matching the wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet.
The momentum and kinetic energy of its bullets are only about half that of the .22 Hornet bullet. The P90 bullet's wounding potential is about equal to that of the .22 WMR bullet. .
Dr.Gary Robbers-
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:
––Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
––Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
––Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
––FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice––Federal Bureau of Investigation.
––Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
––Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound––and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons––after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.
It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP––even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.
Re: PS90
Im not interested in getting into the wonder cartridge super debate. With that being said, when I was a moderator on the AmmoLab(and we did ALL our own testing), I simply viewed too much real world evidence to put full faith in Facklers findings, or anyones for that matter. Your wet dream weapon comment is unnessecary. All your talk of 9mm ballistics goes right out the window if it never gets to hit the body. The P90 was designed to deal with threats wearing body armor and descreet PSD work. Thats its narrow scope. If I'm not mistaken, the USSS uses it in pistol and subgun form. I would like to think they have a good idea about what works and what doesnt. I have a Kriss, XCR, AR, DSA SA58c, PS90, USC, AR10, etc etc etc so its not a fan boy situation here. I know what I see when rounds from what I actually own hits things, not what I ran around the internet and found. I know what I would use it for and what I would choose another tool in the tool box for. I fired the full auto P90 with local SWAT. The high rate of fire and absolute ease of staying on target convince me that it would be effective in its roll. As for the civy PS90, its role may be narrower still. But look at the dates on much of your info. Current ammo at +3000 fps with over 666lbs energy OUT OF THE PISTOL!!!!! Or 55Gr 2300FPS 660FtLbs. Id rather not get hit by it!
Im not interested in getting into the wonder cartridge super debate. With that being said, when I was a moderator on the AmmoLab(and we did ALL our own testing), I simply viewed too much real world evidence to put full faith in Facklers findings, or anyones for that matter. Your wet dream weapon comment is unnessecary. All your talk of 9mm ballistics goes right out the window if it never gets to hit the body. The P90 was designed to deal with threats wearing body armor and descreet PSD work. Thats its narrow scope. If I'm not mistaken, the USSS uses it in pistol and subgun form. I would like to think they have a good idea about what works and what doesnt. I have a Kriss, XCR, AR, DSA SA58c, PS90, USC, AR10, etc etc etc so its not a fan boy situation here. I know what I see when rounds from what I actually own hits things, not what I ran around the internet and found. I know what I would use it for and what I would choose another tool in the tool box for. I fired the full auto P90 with local SWAT. The high rate of fire and absolute ease of staying on target convince me that it would be effective in its roll. As for the civy PS90, its role may be narrower still. But look at the dates on much of your info. Current ammo at +3000 fps with over 666lbs energy OUT OF THE PISTOL!!!!! Or 55Gr 2300FPS 660FtLbs. Id rather not get hit by it!
Re: PS90
It does penetrate well and that is about it.
I do not shoot at people with body armor so it's a moot point for me.
I would like to add it's actual field shooting that made me laugh at the 5.7. After running +300 rounds of 5.7 at various targets and ranges it was really lackluster in down range impact.
It's after I fired it I did some reading and find several people tend to agree with my non-scientific gut feeling of the 5.7.
I tend to think a couple doctors with knowledge in wound ballistics have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, to coin a phrase.
The "wet dream" comment is what it is.
Sorry if it offended.
It does penetrate well and that is about it.
I do not shoot at people with body armor so it's a moot point for me.
I would like to add it's actual field shooting that made me laugh at the 5.7. After running +300 rounds of 5.7 at various targets and ranges it was really lackluster in down range impact.
It's after I fired it I did some reading and find several people tend to agree with my non-scientific gut feeling of the 5.7.
I tend to think a couple doctors with knowledge in wound ballistics have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, to coin a phrase.
The "wet dream" comment is what it is.
Sorry if it offended.
Re: PS90
cal, Im not sure we are in disagreement. For clarity my contention is/was I can see a narrow scope of real world defensive/offensive usefullness for this platform. In MY scope, it works great for my 10 year old LOL. With that being said there are certain rounds out of this thing that I WOULD NOT want to face. With civy FN factory ammo I would not want to have to rely on a single shot stop.....
cal, Im not sure we are in disagreement. For clarity my contention is/was I can see a narrow scope of real world defensive/offensive usefullness for this platform. In MY scope, it works great for my 10 year old LOL. With that being said there are certain rounds out of this thing that I WOULD NOT want to face. With civy FN factory ammo I would not want to have to rely on a single shot stop.....
Re: PS90
get your self an hk usc and do the ump clone its 45acp, i do like the looks of the p90 but with out the military ammo i think the gun is worthless
get your self an hk usc and do the ump clone its 45acp, i do like the looks of the p90 but with out the military ammo i think the gun is worthless
