Question about muzzle brakes

[bllistc]

Do you need to work up a kid again after adding a muzzle brake? I’ve got a 6.5 CM barrel for my LMT that I was going to start developing a load for and I’m thinking about getting a brake for it.

Any recommendations on brakes are also welcome. Only ever used a SilencerCo brake on one of my ARs.

 

[theLBC]

i would put on the brake before developing a load, just in case.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Ditto this^.

Hanging a significant mass on the end of the barrel after finding the best load is just going to invalidate everything you did before adding it.

Unless, or course, you're that fortunate one in many, many folks whose barrel is precisely compatible with just that weight as a tuning mass.

Not likely.

Greg

 

[TheBoctor]

Ditto this^.

Hanging a significant mass on the end of the barrel after finding the best load is just going to invalidate everything you did before adding it.

Unless, or course, you're that fortunate one in many, many folks whose barrel is precisely compatible with just that weight as a tuning mass.

Not likely.

Greg

Yet people hang a magnetospeed that's 5x the weight off the muzzle to develop the load...

If you haven't started working a load up, go ahead and throw the brake on before you start. It can't hurt. If you've already got a load worked up, I'd just throw a string over the chrono and shoot a couple groups and validate the load still works. Probably won't have much of an effect, but it may move POI.

APA little bastard brakes and Area419 Hellfires are good stand-bys.

 

[bllistc]

Thanks for the info guys. I’ll wait to start kid development then and pick one out. The little bastard seems to be pretty popular and effective based on the PRB article on brakes. Any ideas how it compares to the hellfire?

 

[bfoosh006]

IMHO, it matters if the deflection from the brakes exhaust blast is altering the barrel movement dramatically.

Gratuitous barrel whip video.... compare the bare muzzle to the comp.

Granted pencil profile barrel is gonna whip easier then a heavier profile.

 

[acudaowner]

If you could care less about pissing of those people to the left or right of than strongly suggest a muzzle break there is not that many satisfying ways of to piss people off or knock there stuff from there table like em , without getting physical or doing it manually and that is just rude . Muzzle Breaks are also excellent ways to insure no one crowds up on you like anti social behavior people tend to give a bit more elbow room . I have only ever shot one other rifle in 6.5 without a break and the recoil to me was not that bad but again everyone feels it differently . I love mine with the break and the extra weight and massive heavy barrel it feels like an artillery piece when you have to pick it up , but on the ground or flat on a table the felt recoil reminds me of my 22 lr maybe a tad more but defiantly not as much as my 223 . I should have shot it without the weight and the break to see just how much each affects it but I did not do it . Its just too late for me to want to go back and try it as I am much too lazy and or spoiled by all 3 to want to try it without them .

 

[Snuby642]

On my last ar upper i ran the standard flash hider, then the hider suppressor mount and then the suppressor.

The groups went nuts and am back to standard flash hider for load development.

Will try again later after everything gets double checked.

Most all the rest I own like a suppressor on them.

Assume every thing you hang on your barrel will change your groups.

 

[6.5LR]

Used the lil bastard and 419 hellfire. The 419 worked better. Only difference on load work up was very slight poi shift from no brake to adding either. Both are good. Didn’t effect my MV according to chrono but poi shift was maybe 1/4” at most.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yet people hang a magnetospeed that's 5x the weight off the muzzle to develop the load...

If you haven't started working a load up, go ahead and throw the brake on before you start. It can't hurt. If you've already got a load worked up, I'd just throw a string over the chrono and shoot a couple groups and validate the load still works. Probably won't have much of an effect, but it may move POI.

APA little bastard brakes and Area419 Hellfires are good stand-bys.

That's exactly what I've been setting up to do. I've got some bits and pieces just newly mounted as part of a complete revamp of my AR's. The systems have been changed significantly and load redevelopment was inevitable anyway.

But the loads will be tailored to act as clones of existing accurate match loads and such.

In the event that such loads don't cut it, I also have a pair of Limbsaver Deresonators onhand; maybe they can contribute to allow those generic clone loads some success. When I make such extensive changes; I suspect that there's little to lose by stepping out a small bit further on that limb. The object here is to add those brakes; and maybe also be able to redeem whatever harmonic changes that alteration might produce.

These days; that conversions project has firmly reestablished that my rifles are now just range toys. They're not practical away from the bench because I'm no longer practical away from that bench either.

I know the Deresonators can be controversial, and right now it's time for a "What the Hell, let's go...".

Greg

 

[Yondering]

IMHO, it matters if the deflection from the brakes exhaust blast is altering the barrel movement dramatically.

Gratuitous barrel whip video.... compare the bare muzzle to the comp.

Granted pencil profile barrel is gonna whip easier then a heavier profile.

Why do you think that would matter? The bullet exits the barrel before the brake has any functional effect other than it's mass. Barrel whip after the bullet leaves the barrel doesn't have any effect on accuracy, obviously. They even pointed that out in the video.

 

[bfoosh006]

Why do you think that would matter? The bullet exits the barrel before the brake has any functional effect other than it's mass. Barrel whip after the bullet leaves the barrel doesn't have any effect on accuracy, obviously. They even pointed that out in the video.

I don't know... every gas block that has bonked a rail upon firing has given me poor accuracy and group size. So I am not exactly sure why.

I tend to focus on "precision shooting", over "combat shooting" , so my viewpoint is probably skewed towards that, and minimizing group altering issues.

My apologizes, I tend to forget not everyone has my same perspective about AR's.

Every time I have altered the hand guard and GB contact( replaced , or made sure contact was eliminated ) accuracy ( precision ) has become more consistent.

It might be something as simple as the barrel has stopped wriggling around sooner, or is doing its movement in a more consistent, repeatable manner, prior to the next shot.

So , again I don't know why .. I just try to minimize whip and contact between the parts. It may not be a barrel whip issue at all. It could very well be a "the barrel whip / contact is altering my shooting stance issue" ( In other words a "me" issue )

And I could be completely wrong. I just have found less barrel movement has made my groups consistently better... so minimizing that effect, helps me shoot "better".

Maybe someone can explain better what I mean. ( Or point out what I need to focus on to stop the effect , Lol )

I am not the most articulate guy, so pardon my lack of eloquence ( had to spell check that one )... my experience's tend to dictate my thinking.
So most certainly don't take my experience's as Gospel.

@Yondering
And I have to ask.... how do barrel tuners work ? ( Not trying to be flippant , just trying to understand since the bullet will have left the barrel prior to the whip as well )

Adjusting the tuner, also changes the point of impact... so something is altering the whip and bullets exit.

My Browning BAR with its BOSS system most certainly works. It is a PITA , to tune for the various loads , but it does group better after even just using the Brownings suggested settings.

This makes sense to me. There are tons of videos showing a tuners improvements on group size via tuning.

 

[nn8734]

I’ll wait to start kid development then and pick one out.

Hopefully you find a chick who is both hot and loyal before starting kid development, or you may just end up with a little bastard. Hot and loyal is a tough combo to come by these days. Good luck with your rifle as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Tuners and deresonators are different animals, but just as tuners can be moved to affect harmonics, moving a deresonator can have the same effect.

It's two effects.

The tuner alters harmonics. The deresonator also attenuates reduces harmonic swing, acting in the same manner as an architectural counterweight attenuates wind sway in tall buildings. The deresonator can quiver, which is how it works. It dampens oscillation.

The tuner alters frequency, the deresonator/attenuator alters amplitude; and it can also alter frequency, by the changing deresonator's position along the barrel length, or the attenuator's height within a tall building.

The directional gas deflection from the brake acts like a hammer tapping on the tuning fork. It adds force and direction to the oscillation. Depending on the underlying harmonic oscillation, it can amplify or attenuate muzzle swing, or even force it along a different and even more complex set of motion vectors. Brakes don't just change harmonic frequency, they can drive and redirect it.

Elsewhere on this site, Spife has posted a number of depictions illustrating the many vectors where harmonics is a factor.

I don't generally employ brakes , etc.; depending mainly on load development.

But am beginning some experimentation with both brakes and deresonators; probably in combination, brake first, deresonator as followup.

It'll be interesting...

Greg

 

[bfoosh006]

Tuners and deresonators are different animals, but just as tuners can be moved to affect harmonics, moving a deresonator can have the same effect.

It's two effects.

The tuner alters harmonics. The deresonator also attenuates reduces harmonic swing, acting in the same manner as an architectural counterweight attenuates wind sway in tall buildings. The deresonator can quiver, which is how it works. It dampens oscillation.

The tuner alters frequency, the deresonator/attenuator alters amplitude; and it can also alter frequency, by the changing deresonator's position along the barrel length, or the attenuator's height within a tall building.

The directional gas deflection from the brake acts like a hammer tapping on the tuning fork. It adds force and direction to the oscillation. Depending on the underlying harmonic oscillation, it can amplify or attenuate muzzle swing, or even force it along a different and even more complex set of motion vectors. Brakes don't just change harmonic frequency, they can drive and redirect it.

Elsewhere on this site, Spife has posted a number of depictions illustrating the many vectors where harmonics is a factor.

I don't generally employ brakes , etc.; depending mainly on load development.

But am beginning some experimentation with both brakes and deresonators; probably in combination, brake first, deresonator as followup.

It'll be interesting...

Greg

I would be very interested in your results. Thank you for your explanations.

 

[Yondering]

I don't know... every gas block that has bonked a rail upon firing has given me poor accuracy and group size. So I am not exactly sure why.

I tend to focus on "precision shooting", over "combat shooting" , so my viewpoint is probably skewed towards that, and minimizing group altering issues.

My apologizes, I tend to forget not everyone has my same perspective about AR's.

Every time I have altered the hand guard and GB contact( replaced , or made sure contact was eliminated ) accuracy ( precision ) has become more consistent.

It might be something as simple as the barrel has stopped wriggling around sooner, or is doing its movement in a more consistent, repeatable manner, prior to the next shot.

So , again I don't know why .. I just try to minimize whip and contact between the parts. It may not be a barrel whip issue at all. It could very well be a "the barrel whip / contact is altering my shooting stance issue" ( In other words a "me" issue )

And I could be completely wrong. I just have found less barrel movement has made my groups consistently better... so minimizing that effect, helps me shoot "better".

Maybe someone can explain better what I mean. ( Or point out what I need to focus on to stop the effect , Lol )

I am not the most articulate guy, so pardon my lack of eloquence ( had to spell check that one )... my experience's tend to dictate my thinking.
So most certainly don't take my experience's as Gospel.

@Yondering
And I have to ask.... how do barrel tuners work ? ( Not trying to be flippant , just trying to understand since the bullet will have left the barrel prior to the whip as well )

Adjusting the tuner, also changes the point of impact... so something is altering the whip and bullets exit.

My Browning BAR with its BOSS system most certainly works. It is a PITA , to tune for the various loads , but it does group better after even just using the Brownings suggested settings.

This makes sense to me. There are tons of videos showing a tuners improvements on group size via tuning.

Barrel whip is a thing, and handguard or barrel deflection and contact are bad for accuracy, but that doesn't have anything to do with muzzle brakes affecting accuracy. The effect of a muzzle brake doesn't happen until the bullet has left the barrel; it's the powder gasses that make a brake work, and they don't act on the brake when the bullet is still in the barrel. The mass of a brake might have some effect on barrel whip relating to accuracy, but not the function of the brake.

Tuners/deresonators/whatever are just different methods of altering barrel harmonics (vibrations). Adding a mass to some point on the barrel changes harmonics, and so does moving a mass from one point to another. The function of various methods is different, but the effect is the same - to tune the vibrations so that the bullet exits consistently at an optimum point in the barrel vibration waveform.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Harmonic whip, amplified, extends longer; and it may interfere with POI on rapid followup shots.