Question for .223 - 77 Grain Ammunition

[Longshot231]

I'm currently shooting the Federal GMM .223 77 grain SMK in my RRA AR-15 for long range pursuits. It's like a laser beam out to 700 yards. If the wind gremlins don't torment me to much, I'm able to hit clay pigeons at that distance. Out to 1,000 I'm able to hit an ISPC size target.

The only downside is the ammo is a little expensive but that's to be expected.

My question is if anyone has any experience with shooting the S&B or the IMI ammunition with that bullet weight and how it performs or compares to the Federal offering.

And, yes, I'm too lazy to buy some of it an try it myself.

 

[357Max]

I'm currently shooting the Federal GMM .223 77 grain SMK in my RRA AR-15 for long range pursuits. It's like a laser beam out to 700 yards. If the wind gremlins don't torment me to much, I'm able to hit clay pigeons at that distance. Out to 1,000 I'm able to hit an ISPC size target.

The only downside is the ammo is a little expensive but that's to be expected.

My question is if anyone has any experience with shooting the S&B or the IMI ammunition with that bullet weight and how it performs or compares to the Federal offering.

And, yes, I'm too lazy to buy some of it an try it myself.

IMI Razor Core 77 is good. Sub 3/4" from my 18". Sig 77 is to slow (2640ish), like 75 fps slower than the IMI. Haven't tried the FGM.

25.3 gr AA2520 + 77 SMK is money, sub 1/2" @2760

 

[TonyTheTiger]

And, yes, I'm too lazy to buy some of it an try it myself.

But that's the only answer here. No one else has your barrel, so we can't know how it will shoot. By the time you re zero for the new ammo you've already done some accuracy testing any way, so you can't avoid that step.

 

[021411]

But that's the only answer here. No one else has your barrel, so we can't know how it will shoot. By the time you re zero for the new ammo you've already done some accuracy testing any way, so you can't avoid that step.

Agreed. Razor core shot ok from my 18” WOA. S&B did better at 0.77” or so at 100. Shot two matches with S&B and did fine out to 600-800. One of the matches I sent them at 1004 yards and made an impact.

 

[Longshot231]

But that's the only answer here. No one else has your barrel, so we can't know how it will shoot. By the time you re zero for the new ammo you've already done some accuracy testing any way, so you can't avoid that step.

That’s true but wanted to determine whether it was trash or not. If it shoots decent enough for everyone else then, I figured, it’s okay to take a chance on.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Send me your rifle and $1200 for testing.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Palmetto has a 77 grain load in their AAC line that is getting mixed reviews, but is at a nice price point.

I roll my own. With components that were purchased pre- pandemic, cost is around 35 cents per round. Today the costs are around 60 cpr, still about half of loaded ammo. Which my setup, I can load 100-200 per hour, depending if I trickle powder and need to trim the brass.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Palmetto has a 77 grain load in their AAC line that is getting mixed reviews, but is at a nice price point.

I roll my own. With components that were purchased pre- pandemic, cost is around 35 cents per round. Today the costs are around 60 cpr, still about half of loaded ammo. Which my setup, I can load 100-200 per hour, depending if I trickle powder and need to trim the brass.

I believe I read the Palmetto are blowing primers and having a large SD. Have to see if I can find the thread

 

[MarshallDodge]

I believe I read the Palmetto are blowing primers and having a large SD. Have to see if I can find the thread

That's why I said they are getting mixed reviews...

 

[Slateman]

Palmetto has a 77 grain load in their AAC line that is getting mixed reviews, but is at a nice price point.

I roll my own. With components that were purchased pre- pandemic, cost is around 35 cents per round. Today the costs are around 60 cpr, still about half of loaded ammo. Which my setup, I can load 100-200 per hour, depending if I trickle powder and need to trim the brass.

So Ive shot it. Now, I should preface this by saying that I believe Black Hills to be the gold standard.

AAC's is good for the price, but it had some significant consistency issues when compared to BH. Thats to be expected with PSA. Its budge friendly. But where BH really proves worth the cost is the consistency you get.

Really wish they'd being the 77gr TMK back.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I believe I read the Palmetto are blowing primers and having a large SD. Have to see if I can find the thread

IMI did t have stellar ES or SD from 3 different guns I shot it from.

It shoots decent and will hit targets out to 600 from my 18 inch AR and 22 inch bolt gun consistently

 

[Triple D]

I believe I read the Palmetto are blowing primers and having a large SD. Have to see if I can find the thread

For the one report, that was supposedly 4-5 rifles, I had the same lot. I tested it in multiple rifles with varied gas lengths and had zero issues. Part of me wonders if the rifles that popped primers was due to carbon buildup or they had cleaned their rifle and left residual solvent in the chamber/barrel. The other part realizes that I only had 1k rounds and the overall lot size is a lot larger.

The AAC 77gr OTM precision runs about 75fps faster than the AAC 77gr SMK load, or at least it did. I’m not sure if AAC revised the OTM load to be more aligned with the SMK version that was slightly under 2675fps.

It’s been awhile since I tested FGMM 77, but I believe it was sub 2500fps from an 18” AR.

 

[Longshot231]

FYI: Out of a 20 inch barrel, the Federal GMM 77 SMK is going 2630 FPS. If any of the aforementioned loads have a comparable velocity, I would be tempted to get a few boxes for testing.

 

[roostercogburn98]

FYI: Out of a 20 inch barrel, the Federal GMM 77 SMK is going 2630 FPS. If any of the aforementioned loads have a comparable velocity, I would be tempted to get a few boxes for testing.

if I remember correctly, the 77 grain IMI was 2681 from AR. It is a 18 inch bartlein 1-7.7 with a wylde chamber.

 

[tucaz]

if I remember correctly, the 77 grain IMI was 2681 from AR. It is a 18 inch bartlein 1-7.7 with a wylde chamber.

i think it was a little higher than that, from various postings.

2730 for a 16” and 2822 from a 20” here…

BIG Freakin' Cartridge Test 002: IMI 77gr Razor Core 5.56x45mm, 16" and 20" Barrels -

The first round up of the Big Freakin’ Cartridge Test is IMI’s take on the Black Hill’s classic heavy precision load, Mk. 262. Branded as “77gr Razor Core”, IMI’s version sports annealed 5.56mm NATO cases, neck and primer sealant, and of course 77gr Open Tip Match projectiles. Continuing on from...

www.thefirearmblog.com

i get 2750ish through a 18” BA SPR modern barrel and can hit 12” steel every time out to 600 yards with a 10x scope

my other upper zero’ed with razor core is a 18” LWRC DMR with a mark4 2.5-8 and will do the same.

not sure i have enough scope for clay pigeons! nice shooting.

 

[Slateman]

Creedmore Sports had BH 77gr TMK in stock

 

[RayDBonz]

The IMI through my 20" service rifle was 2772fps.
It will shoot Master scores out to 600. Probably even High Master scores, but I'm the limiting factor there.
The FGMM 69gr is amazing at 200 & 300.

Perhaps the best factory load is the Berger 77gr OTM. But not cheap!
And, of course, the BH MK 262 77gr.

 

[ma smith]

at longer rangest it's all about SD, even with reloads. Otherwise, SMK is great bullet and has lots of potentila for good shooting.

 

[Budrichard]

Both the 223 and 5.56 BH 77 gr are out of stock at Creedmore!

 

[Fret]

Give Berger 77 OTMs a try. More accurate than 77 SMKs in my gas and bolt guns anyway. Four 5 shot groups at 100 yards with SMKs and two groups with OTMs on the bottom left:

 

[NJRaised]

FGGM 77 shoots about 1/2” out of my 24” proof 1:7. I can make impacts out to 800 without much effort.

I know you said 77, but my gun LOVED hornady 75bthp match, and would print under 1/2” (at 100yds) all day long in the same barrel. Moved away from it bc I have a very tight chamber, and occasionally rounds wouldn’t chamber (approx in 10).

Proof 1/7, 24”, bolt gun.

 

[FredHammer]

Give Berger 77 OTMs a try. More accurate than 77 SMKs in my gas and bolt guns anyway. Four 5 shot groups at 100 yards with SMKs and two groups with OTMs on the bottom left:

View attachment 8175780

Wow!

 

[tucaz]

I believe I read the Palmetto are blowing primers and having a large SD. Have to see if I can find the thread

i've gone through about 100-120 rounds of the AAC 77gr OTM with no primer issues or any over pressure signs and that was 2 different barrels.
using larue MBR triggers and a 2-10x scope i got this;

FN 16" chromelined midlength, ave velocity of 2700, 1.5-2 MOA

LWRC ICA6 piston with ave velocity of 2600 (its a slow barrel) and about 1-1.25 MOA. this barrel prints IMI 77gr razor core nearly the same and to the same POI.

 

[FredHammer]

i've gone through about 100-120 rounds of the AAC 77gr OTM with no primer issues or any over pressure signs and that was 2 different barrels.
using larue MBR triggers and a 2-10x scope i got this;

FN 16" chromelined midlength, ave velocity of 2700, 1.5-2 MOA

LWRC ICA6 piston with ave velocity of 2600 (its a slow barrel) and about 1-1.25 MOA. this barrel prints IMI 77gr razor core nearly the same and to the same POI.

I've been testing 77SMK IMI Razor Core a lot lately. It groups good. Some data collected:

Trued BC 905yds: .370

Ammo matching ambient temp:

75F. 18" barrel 2760fps ES: 69fps SD: 17fps (50rnds)
55F. 18" barrel 2680fps ES: 91fps SD: 20fps (50rnds)
55F 16" barrel 2634fps ES: 88fps SD: 23fps (60rnds)

4fps per degree change is a bit disheartening tho...

 

[tucaz]

I've been testing 77SMK IMI Razor Core a lot lately. It groups good. Some data collected:

Trued BC 905yds: .370

Ammo matching ambient temp:

75F. 18" barrel 2760fps ES: 69fps SD: 17fps (50rnds)
55F. 18" barrel 2680fps ES: 91fps SD: 20fps (50rnds)
55F 16" barrel 2634fps ES: 88fps SD: 23fps (60rnds)

4fps per degree change is a bit disheartening tho...

i never thought about the temps much, so that is interesting.

i lost my 77gr IMI data thru a 18" ballistic adv barrel but the average was 2750 at about 85 degrees. we tested my buddy's 18" douglass stainless last month in 95 degree temps;
2818
2871
2861
2871
2903

might have to re-visit that when things cool off here in the desert sw.

 

[FredHammer]

i never thought about the temps much, so that is interesting.

i lost my 77gr IMI data thru a 18" ballistic adv barrel but the average was 2750 at about 85 degrees. we tested my buddy's 18" douglass stainless last month ago in 95 degree temps;
2818
2871
2861
2871
2903

might have to re-visit that when things cool off here in the desert sw.

Ok, so there is another 20F. increase in temp and about the same increase in velocity. 4fps vs 5fps between two different barrels, but still gives a general display of the temp sensitivity of the powder used.

 

[oldrifleman]

Just got some 77gr HPBT (Lapua OTM) 5.56 AMU ammo from Atlanta Arms. so far I am pretty happy Sub 3/4" initial groups from 20" Bartlein 1/7 Whlde barrel.

 

[FredHammer]

Just got some 77gr HPBT (Lapua OTM) 5.56 AMU ammo from Atlanta Arms. so far I am pretty happy Sub 3/4" initial groups from 20" Bartlein 1/7 Whlde barrel.

If those aren't 500rnd 3/4 groups, we just won't believe you!

 

[oldrifleman]

If those aren't 500rnd 3/4 groups, we just won't believe you!

Yeah well it was more like 4 5 round groups, like I said initial.

 

[FredHammer]

Yeah well it was more like 4 5 round groups, like I said initial.

45rnd groups we can accept. Do tell your story.

 

[oldrifleman]

4 X 5 rounds, I was just trying it out, I was at the range to play with my .308 Bolt. My opinion though was it was as good as my experience with FGNM 77gr with my skill level (mediocre).

 

[FredHammer]

4 X 5 rounds, I was just trying it out, I was at the range to play with my .308 Bolt. My opinion though was it was as good as my experience with FGNM 77gr with my skill level (mediocre).

4, 5rnd groups, all totaling 3/4" is not bad.

 

[Longshot231]

I'm too lazy to switch brands and got another 1000 rounds of the Federal GMM 77SMK. It's giving me great results at distance. So for now, I'll continue to use these.

On the other hand, I am still interested in what others are experiencing with other maker's 77 grain fodder.

 

[FredHammer]

I'm too lazy to switch brands and got another 1000 rounds of the Federal GMM 77SMK. It's giving me great results at distance. So for now, I'll continue to use these.

On the other hand, I am still interested in what others are experiencing with other maker's 77 grain fodder.

I guess you don't hand load? Because those 77 Bergers got me excited!

 

[Longshot231]

I guess you don't hand load? Because those 77 Bergers got me excited!

I do handload but haven't the time. Besides, I looked at the cost of the components and my time then figured that I am better off buying factory ammo.

I may reload that brass later or may sell it at a gun show and use the money for more factory loaded ammo.

I do reload for other calibers as I still have the components for them such as .30-06, .308, 45-70 and some handgun calibers.

 

[ma smith]

I'm currently shooting the Federal GMM .223 77 grain SMK in my RRA AR-15 for long range pursuits. It's like a laser beam out to 700 yards.

If you are getting SMK to shoot like a lazer beam at 700 yards, you might have a good lot of ammo with low SDs.

 

[tucaz]

If you are getting SMK to shoot like a lazer beam at 700 yards, you might have a good lot of ammo with low SDs.

or...we have to define the spread on the laser in question. what is its collimination? does it have a low beam divergence?

are we hitting bowling balls or filing cabinets at 700?

wind tends to get me with 223's once i get to 400. i'm no expert though.

 

[912173]

Just a warning to any who wonder, Nosler 77gr ammo is REALLY slow. Like 2300fps out of a 16" barrel. I emailed nosler about it and they said it's perfectly fine. It's accurate but I would leave it to longer barreled rifles.

 

[Longshot231]

The Federal GMM ammo specification is 2720 FPS and I am betting that is out of a 24" barrel. I have a 20" barrel on the RRA rifle and I'm getting 2630 FPS.

I can live with that and getting great accuracy out of it.

 

[Jack's Dad]

Even in my 24 inch bolt gun the Norma is only going a bit over 2600 fps and only makes 1-1.5" groups. My pet load with 75gr bullets is 2980.

 

[912173]

Even in my 24 inch bolt gun the Norma is only going a bit over 2600 fps and only makes 1-1.5" groups. My pet load with 75gr bullets is 2980.

Yeah my brother got about moa but that was a brownells brn-180 piston upper. I figured it would do better than that in a bolt gun.