Night Vision Range Finders

[wigwamitus]

Well, in for a penny, in for a pound ... I guess I willl try to zero this critter tonight and build me a working handheld thermal range finder !

The gear will include:

Olde ruger YUTE model .308WIN(18) (my "test" gun) ...
Skeet weapons mount which takes dove tail from the device
Patrol
Lion's gear rail on the patrol
Radius on the Lion's gear rail
Manfrotto M190 tripod
PIG saddle

RRS tripod
G-10 chassis
REM700 SPS tac aac-sd barreled action
Mk5 5-25x T3 scope
Night Optics Day/Night adapter
PVS-14 #1

not shown
TH bump helmet
norotos lo sto (button)
PVS-14 #2

==
Zeroing Process


01 - Setup Ruger Yute model on tripod outside aimed at the mineral feeder ~ 415 yrds away on the ridge
02 - Setup REM700 7.62(20) on tripod just to the right of the ruger yute
03 - Aim reticle of patrol on yute at center of mineral feeder at 415yds.
04 - With PVS-14 on rear of Mk5 scope, aim center of 7.62(20) reticle at the mineral feeder.
05 - Turn on the radius aiming laser.
06 - Adjust the radius aiming laser so it is pointed at the mineral feeder, use helmet mounted 14 to get into the ball park.
07 - Keep checking the Patrol to make sure the center of the thermal reticle is aimed at the center of the mineral feeder.
08 - Fine tune the Radius on the Patrol by checking on the 7.62(20) with the 14 behind.
09 - Once the Radius on the Patrol is zeroed, test several known distance targets. Aim the patrol thermal reticle at the target and check the range. Repeat steps 07, 08 and 09 if needed

 

[wigwamitus]

I'm gonna switch the tripods around and use the RRS with the VYCE on the yute model and the manfrotto on the G-10 rifle with the 14. The yute model needs the most stability because we want the patrol to remain locked on to the center of the mineral feeder while turning the adjustment knobs on the radius, which are appropriately stiff. So switching the tripod assignments !!

 

[wigwamitus]

I was able to zero the radius on the Patrol last night. I had the G-10 out there with the 14 on the back of the mk5, but couldn't even use that, it was too dark. But I was able to move around with the 14 on my head and see the mineral feeder just fine and the aiming last on the mineral feeder. If I was too far left, I saw more mineral feeder to the right and adjusted, etc. As to up and down. When the aiming laser was too low it was hitting the ground and looked different, if it was hitting the sky it looked different, etc. So last night at least I got it done with the head mounted 14.

I kept checking the center of the patrol reticle and it remained on the center of the mineral feeder. I used both hands when turning the adjustment wheels on the radius to help steady it.

Then I detached the patrol from the skeet mount and test and was able to range the mineral feeder at 419 yds and the mail box at 118 and a building at 77yds and the tree line on the far side of the alfalfa patch at 568 and a cow laying down in the alfalfa patch at 339. So it works !!

My phone fell out of my pocket outside and I couldn't find it. Need to go try again today, hence no pics, but see above pics for the gear in question.

The combo is a little bulky and not the easiest to steady. But for what I was ranging, I could get it done.

 

[Rlb40x]

I was looking at rifle mounted rangefinders myself because it’s so hard to guess ranges at night.
I ended up going with a pulsar Accolade xq38 LRF. I really like having it for a scanner vs swinging my rifle around to look for critters.
I’ve ranged out to 1265 with them so far, further than I would ever take a shot at night.
The view is pretty good, not as good as my Reap but close.

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye. The plus of hand held range finders is you can whip them out and range something quickly without having to set up a tripod.

Once on the tripod however, then the advantage goes to the rifle mounted range finders as then you can then quickly range a critter and shoot, without having to come off the gun. You can usually see the rifle mounted range finder display out of your other eye when behind the scope.

I also have a radius mounted to my 10 inch barrel carbine, which is fast like the handheld rangers as it doesn't require a tripod setup. Sort of a handheld LRF with a barrel slung underneath

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok, found my phone outside ... so here is what the contraption finally wound up looking like after zeroing the radius ...

I think it works well for ranging on 4x on the patrol as you have enough magnification to aim more precisely at the target to be ranged.

 

[wigwamitus]

@SkyScrapin is thinking of trying this on a REAP2 60mm ... and except for size/weight I think it will work well.

My carbine mounted mk3 60mm / radius is similar and is a great spotter and having the carbine on a sling helps some with stabilizing, though I often carry a shooting stick also.

If I was carrying the patrol/radius combo shown above in the field, I would run a lanyard on the patrol and carry the whole contraption in a chest pouch.

skyscrapin might mostly run his on a gun, and he might be using a raptar. If I used a raptar on the patrol the size / weight profile of the above contraption would be reduced. But I want to put my new raptar s/es on the rifle as it has the ballistics module. So if I was to use the patrol as an LRF in the field anytime soon, I would use a radius (since I have 2 radiae). But, I'm thinking the carbine mounted combo of the mk3 60mm and radius probably is close enough, functionally for my purposes as to not need the patrol+radius combo. But I will take it out a few more times and see how it works.

==
And for those who missed it ... here is the carbine LRF/Spotter ... mk3 60mm with radius

 

[Rlb40x]

@SkyScrapin is thinking of trying this on a REAP2 60mm ... and except for size/weight I think it will work well.

My carbine mounted mk3 60mm / radius is similar and is a great spotter and having the carbine on a sling helps some with stabilizing, though I often carry a shooting stick also.

If I was carrying the patrol/radius combo shown above in the field, I would run a lanyard on the patrol and carry the whole contraption in a chest pouch.

skyscrapin might mostly run his on a gun, and he might be using a raptar. If I used a raptar on the patrol the size / weight profile of the above contraption would be reduced. But I want to put my new raptar s/es on the rifle as it has the ballistics module. So if I was to use the patrol as an LRF in the field anytime soon, I would use a radius (since I have 2 radiae). But, I'm thinking the carbine mounted combo of the mk3 60mm and radius probably is close enough, functionally for my purposes as to not need the patrol+radius combo. But I will take it out a few more times and see how it works.

==
And for those who missed it ... here is the carbine LRF/Spotter ... mk3 60mm with radius

Very nice rig.

 

[wigwamitus]

I went out with the carbine ranger finder (shown above ^^) on coop overwatch 3 times last night and used the range finder ... one bale the cattle were working on 309 yds, mineral feeder on the ridge 410 yds, three by mail box 127 yds. The carbine range finder works fine !

I think I will have to add a couple of more radiae to my wish list. I paid $600 for one and $400 for the other. And as far as ranging, they get the job done. Haven't used them in the rain yet, that might be their achilles heel ... that and maybe SiCo couldn't fix them if they broke, so if you break one toss it in the trash and take another off the shelve. But until someone else has the guys to make something as good as the radius (under $1k price that works) ... I'll go with the radius !!!

And on the patrol mount and the carbine mount, I don't use the pressure switches. Not needed. I place at least one finger on an opposing surface, like the front of the battery compartment, for leverage, when pushing the "fire" button and that works fine. Saving the pressure switches for use off the rifles.

 

[wigwamitus]

The Larue will work but it is pretty "high" ... the Badger and Spuhr solutions are more flexible ... and can be converted to multiple heights as well are a SIMRAD cap and even the a-700 NV mount for the Spuhr ...

 

[wigwamitus]

Got it ... Advanced Air Marksman and ICU Nurse !!! (I call myself "Nurse Joe" in my day job as I am always trying to help employees improve their wellness )

 

[Nightsniper]

Well I hope it works just got it

 

[Night Assassin]

Well I hope it works just got it

NICE !!!
Let us know your thoughts on it.
And Doug, you may want to hide your address... LOL

 

[aggiez28]

good write up thanks.
I have always wanted to try the raptor.

 

[wigwamitus]

What is the energy of your projectile at 50,100,150,200, 250 ??

 

[wigwamitus]

Not exactly "range finder" related ... but how consistent is the MV shot to shot ? And how to you manage that ?

 

[wigwamitus]

So do you need to account for this 7-10 fps loss in your DOPE from a certain distance out ?

==

Air rifles may behave differently, but I've tried to shoot .22LR out a ways. Out to 300yds I've been able to sustain fist or smaller sized groups, wind not withstanding. But farther out and group size deteriorates rapidly. At 450yds I'd call them "chest" sized groups, again the wind can easily make things worse. But for .22lr there is a "knee" between 350-400yds where things "fall of the cliff". So look for that phenomena as you push out.

 

[wigwamitus]

On the range finder topic. I've been using the new RAPTAR in my nightly coop patrol activities on the 7.62(20) NF 2.5-10x MIL-R setup.

The ranging seems very accurate and reliable. From say 37yds out to 550yds ... if the unit gets multiple ranges for a given attempt, they are returned in an array and you can cycle through them with the "left" and "right" buttons. This is not as handy as the Radius, which shows you 3 different distances on the screen and no clicking required. But with practice, thinking about the button clicks disappears and it happens fast. I"m not 100% there yet, but feeling more and more comfortable with it each night.

 

[wigwamitus]

... the .22lr travels from supersonic to subsonic ...

Not for me ... I have been shooting subsonic only out of .22LR since late 2014.

I shoot eley 40gr subsonic hollow points out of the night .22LR (a 16 inch barreled stoner with a 1x thermal and 3x on top)

And Lapua Center-X 40gr subsonic out of the day .22LR (a tikka 20 inch barrel with a althon 6-24x scope, usually on 6x for tree rats and 18x for dot drills)

I think most people who want accuracy out of .22LR rifles shoot subsonic. The supersonic rounds are only super sonic out to around 50yds away.

And I have never had a cycling issue with the Eley out of the .22lr stoner style upper .. (it is a CMMG). That upper plus the Sig 10 rd mags yields very high reliability.

 

[Travis224]

What do you guys think about using a straight up Pulsar xp38LRF as a hand held? Yes it's a little bigger but you can dual use it as a spotter and as a scope if need be. Obviously since you already have a trijicon, so be it, but I plan to use a Pulsar and MK3 60mm this season.

 

[wigwamitus]

What do you guys think about using a straight up Pulsar xp38LRF as a hand held? Yes it's a little bigger but you can dual use it as a spotter and as a scope if need be. Obviously since you already have a trijicon, so be it, but I plan to use a Pulsar and MK3 60mm this season.

NP doing that, you won't be the only one doing it

 

[wigwamitus]

Spent some time today trying to use 4 different tools:

01 - "Real AB"
The applied ballistics phone app I've been using on my phone for years ... currently shows version 2.2.1

02 - Wilcox RAPTAR S/ES
SW: 03.01
HW: 2

03 - Kestrel 5700 Elite AB LINK
SW: 1.22

04 - Kestrel AB LINK
The kestrel/AB phone app which connects to the Kestrel for various purposes
SW Build: 157

==
I've been using 01 a lot ... especially lately ... with three different guns and three different cartridges ... some of the recent results are shown in my day shooting thread. Short version .. I trust the elevation and wind predictions coming out of 01.
I use the G7 model. I am not in the "truing" school. I never enter any "truing" adjustments. I am using the AB/G7 predictions that anyone else should get if they use the same gun/bullet/atmospherics data I use.

I use the kestrel 2500NV and have used it for years also. It gives me LOW, AVG and HIGH wind reads in MPH ... and temp, humidity and elevation, which I do adjust for.
I have not (yet) used the kestrel 5700, device 03 in the field.

I have used a RAPTAR ES and two different Radius's (radiae ?) as well as a Bushy 1600 arc elite and Zeiss 10x45 LRF for ranging. The bushy I've used since 2014 ... the others since 2017 or less. Since March 2019, I've been using the 02 device in "LRF(yards)" only mode.

So 01 works ... and 02 works in "LRF only" mode. But today was testing with 03 and 02 to see if I could get the fancier widgets to do something useful. The short version is NO. At least not yet.

==
I entered the exact same gun data from 01 into 03 ... including adjusting the temp on 01 as the temp on 03 kept rising, since I was holding it in my hand !? But 03 was consistently 0.1 to 0.2 mils off at 640 yards for elevation. I plugged in 0 for the wind.

I had previously tried to get 04 to connect to 03 with no luck. The 03 says it is connected, the 04 returns an error msg.

==
So entered the gun data into 02 and the atmospheric data as well. This was done outside where the temp was 74F. So set the 01 temp to 74F and adjusted the humidity as well. First I confirmed that when in "FULL" mode, the 02 returns the distance in meters. Otherwise, you have a mode for "LRF(meters") or "LRF(yards". I've been running the 02 in "LRF(yards)". But when in FULL (ballistic solution) MODE, the unit returns this distances in meters. Maybe there is the deep dark factory menu item where this can be changed?
Regardless, I switched the 01 over to meters. At 237 meters, the 01 said 0.7 mil up hold and 02 said 1.2 mils up hold. That's 2.55 inches difference. I shoot "face" (6x6 steel) out to 640 yards. At that distance a 2.55 inch error would be a 5.94 inch error with 0.06 inch margin of error. Not enough !!!

==
So today's attempts to use 03 and 02 where not successful. Fortunately using 02 in "LRF(yards)" mode works fine and using the Kestrel 2500NV for the wind in MV also works fine. Just means I'm still tied to using a phone in the field to get access to 01. Hoping to be able to get 02 and or 03 working for ballistics solutions one day, so I don't need the phone. Today was not that day.


I will call Wilcox later this week and see if they can offer any hints.

 

[Squibbler]

==
So entered the gun data into 02 and the atmospheric data as well.

I must be mistaken....I thought the atmospherics were integral on this unit with on board sensors.....???

Please confirm ballistic solutions are dependent on manually entered atmospherics?

 

[wigwamitus]

... I thought the atmospherics were integral ...

You can override.
And for purposes of testing, this is indicated to force the units to have the same inputs.

 

[Squibbler]

You can override.
And for purposes of testing, this is indicated to force the units to have the same inputs.

Gotcha

 

[wigwamitus]

In working further with the RAPTAR S/ES and Kestrel 5700 Elite AB LINK yesterday ... using them separately and comparing ... one issue I found ...

The RAPTAR S/ES has three so called "modes"

FULL (includes ballistic solution)
LRF (Meters)
LRF (Yards)

The second two modes, do not display elevation and windage holds, those just display the distance, in either yards or meters as indicated. When I set the "S" to "FULL" the unit displays the distance in meters. At first, I thought it would carry over the UOM setting from the LRF (meters) or LRF (Yards) mode, but with more testing, that is not the case. My unit always displays the distance in meters, when it is in FULL mode.
I was chatting with Night Assassin, who also has an "S" ... he got his from OP back in Nov. I got mine in March (March 2019 manuf date ... sw 03.01 ... hw: 2). Mine seems to be hard set at meters for the FULL mode. His seems to be hard set at yards for the FULL mode.
There might be a setting in a hidden "factory" menu to change this. I would assume so. I will try to find out.

It would also be possible for me to switch EVERYTHING I do over to meters ... and I've thought about it. In the Army I was in, we did everything in meters ... and when I first started shooting as a silly villian ... my brain itched a lot as it tried to convert itself over to yards ... but I fear now the brain conversion has been done ... and it will itch more when I try to convert back ... also ... I don't know many people who use meters ... near me ... so if I switch to meters ... I wouldn't be able to shoot with many people ... but I guess that's ok. I dont' shoot with many people any way

or, I could mostly run the unit on LRF (yards) ... and for the few times I run it on FULL, I could just ignore the distance out put. If I need the distance output, I could switch to LRF(yards).

There is something similar on the kestrel 5700 ...
I am using T3 reticles on 4 of my six rifles. I need to know the low, average and max wind speed in MPH. The kestrel can only show me that in "weather" mode, not in "ballistics" mode. In "ballistics" mode it shows me the elevation and wind holds in mils. But to see the wind speed, I have to switch to "weather" mode. So "mode" switching will be a thing for the kestrel as well. In the mean time, I still use my NV2500 kestrel, I got 5 years ago when doing anything serious. It shows me wind speed: low, avg, max, easily.

Lots of button pushes to use the fancy widgets ... degrades their value. I'll keep trying to use the fancy widgets, but not sure they will be adpoted as the primary solvers in the field ...


==
I did get them to agree to within about 0.6 mils on several targets yesterday. Since they use different formulae from the "Real AB" I would not expect them to match exactly. But just using them in the field, side by side with the older, tried and true (current) methods, will help me judge how close they are to the real world and whether it is worth trying to use them in the field. I just think it will take a lot of comparing of the various solvers under a lot of different conditions to get a feel for how close they are. And if that is close enough. Maybe it is, not sure yet

 

[CBDR]

Pre Okefenokee check list.

 

[CBDR]

Maximum permissible stay time 48 hrs. Anticipated insect level 5. WX: forecast 95 - 102 degrees, humidity level holding at 60%, participation 10%. Illumination: Moon rise 04:00. Reminds me of those fine days living in a con-ex box. Swamp water levels should be low based on drought like conditions of South East GA. Anticipated threat axis (ankle level) reptile activity after S/S high.
Objective: Conduct thermal over watch, S/S - S/R. Game camera intel shows monster hog greater than 300 lbs in my area. Cooler packed with food & h2o. Extended periods of boredom followed up by pure adrenaline. Breath slow and normal and remember all the fundamentals.

 

[SkyScrapin]

Spotter45 got a buddy.
Thanks for making this happen @wigwamitus and @MACHTECH

 

[PORTSIDE_GUNNER]

In working further with the RAPTAR S/ES and Kestrel 5700 Elite AB LINK yesterday ... using them separately and comparing ... one issue I found ...

The RAPTAR S/ES has three so called "modes"

FULL (includes ballistic solution)
LRF (Meters)
LRF (Yards)

The second two modes, do not display elevation and windage holds, those just display the distance, in either yards or meters as indicated. When I set the "S" to "FULL" the unit displays the distance in meters. At first, I thought it would carry over the UOM setting from the LRF (meters) or LRF (Yards) mode, but with more testing, that is not the case. My unit always displays the distance in meters, when it is in FULL mode.
I was chatting with Night Assassin, who also has an "S" ... he got his from OP back in Nov. I got mine in March (March 2019 manuf date ... sw 03.01 ... hw: 2). Mine seems to be hard set at meters for the FULL mode. His seems to be hard set at yards for the FULL mode.
There might be a setting in a hidden "factory" menu to change this. I would assume so. I will try to find out.

It would also be possible for me to switch EVERYTHING I do over to meters ... and I've thought about it. In the Army I was in, we did everything in meters ... and when I first started shooting as a silly villian ... my brain itched a lot as it tried to convert itself over to yards ... but I fear now the brain conversion has been done ... and it will itch more when I try to convert back ... also ... I don't know many people who use meters ... near me ... so if I switch to meters ... I wouldn't be able to shoot with many people ... but I guess that's ok. I dont' shoot with many people any way

or, I could mostly run the unit on LRF (yards) ... and for the few times I run it on FULL, I could just ignore the distance out put. If I need the distance output, I could switch to LRF(yards).

There is something similar on the kestrel 5700 ...
I am using T3 reticles on 4 of my six rifles. I need to know the low, average and max wind speed in MPH. The kestrel can only show me that in "weather" mode, not in "ballistics" mode. In "ballistics" mode it shows me the elevation and wind holds in mils. But to see the wind speed, I have to switch to "weather" mode. So "mode" switching will be a thing for the kestrel as well. In the mean time, I still use my NV2500 kestrel, I got 5 years ago when doing anything serious. It shows me wind speed: low, avg, max, easily.

Lots of button pushes to use the fancy widgets ... degrades their value. I'll keep trying to use the fancy widgets, but not sure they will be adpoted as the primary solvers in the field ...


==
I did get them to agree to within about 0.6 mils on several targets yesterday. Since they use different formulae from the "Real AB" I would not expect them to match exactly. But just using them in the field, side by side with the older, tried and true (current) methods, will help me judge how close they are to the real world and whether it is worth trying to use them in the field. I just think it will take a lot of comparing of the various solvers under a lot of different conditions to get a feel for how close they are. And if that is close enough. Maybe it is, not sure yet

Did you ever get your unit to switch from Meters to Yards? That would suck if it only does one....

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, in "ranging mode" both the E and ES range in either yards or meters.

But in "ballistics mode" ... my S model only ranges in meters. It's probably switchable, but I just never have called Wilcox to figure out how.

 

[Night Assassin]

It has to be possible, in ballistic mode it ranges in yards for me.

 

[wigwamitus]

My S unit manufacture date 03/19 (on front right side of unit)
Could be software different from yours ?

EDIT: My "about" says:
SW: 03.01
HW: 2

But nothing in my manuals or menu provides any indication of how to switch the ballistics mode to yards.
But I expect there is a factory menu, where it can be done.
Hopefully Wilcox can walk me through that on the phone.

 

[McNamara0851]

I was going to start a new thread, but it seems that the people I need to hear from are already here. I have a specific set of questions pertaining to the performance of the radius vs a civilian power raptar used solely at night, mounted to an EFR, used for ranging coyotes (not landmarks, buildings, or trees) on FLAT open ground out to 800 yards. I run Simrads with laser Illuminators attached to them. I can see as far as I can feasibly shoot. The being said, the illumination on the raptar is not of much concern except for resale value.

I hunt with a friend who runs a XP50LRF. I have also owned an Axion LRF. I have come to the conclusion that Pulsars’ LRF leaves quite a bit to be desired beyond 400 yards. I sold my Axion and got on the preorder list for a helion XP50 pro with the intention of going weapons mounted LRF. I’ve hunted a few times with a friend that has a trijicon/radius setup. He was able to get me on one at 437 yards with seemingly little effort. I haven’t had a chance to play with his setup at all, but he didn’t seem 100% in love with it.

With that in mind, I would like to hear the opinions of people who have used or own both units in conjunction with NV. How far can you reliably ping a coyote with either unit on an average night (50% humidity, no precipitation, rifle mounted to a tripod)? If you owned a radius and upgraded to the raptar, solely for the LRF capability, did you notice a performance gain inside of 800 yards on small targets? Is one more reliable, consistent, better at holding a zero, easier on batteries etc.? Illumination aside, with the sole intention of ranging coyotes in the dark out to 800 yards, keeping budget in mind, but not making it a limiting factor what unit would you choose? Will either work for my application? Would I be better off buying 3 Radius, over one Raptar? I’m also curious if the older Raptars (~2012) have similar ranging performance as the new group buy models.

Please help me spend my money before it all goes to strippers and booze.

 

[wigwamitus]

... I have a specific set of questions pertaining to the performance of the radius vs a civilian power raptar used solely at night, mounted to an EFR, used for ranging coyotes (not landmarks, buildings, or trees) on FLAT open ground out to 800 yards. I run Simrads with laser Illuminators attached to them. I can see as far as I can feasibly shoot. The being said, the illumination on the raptar is not of much concern except for resale value. ...

The S and S/ES RAPTARs, for example, have exactly the same ranging lasers in them. No difference between the Mil and commercial versions on the ranging lasers. They are "full power". That's because they are 1550nm lasers and that frequency ( at that power ) is absorbed by the cornea (and hence doesn't reach the retina). So these are totally EYE SAFE. Which is why they were adopted by the military in the first place. Restated, the 1550nm ranging lasers in the RAPTARs are much more powerful than the 905nm ranging lasers in most commercial (and some military) range finders, yet they are eye safe.

The radius is solid out to 3000 meters on an average night around me, off terrain.

Ability to exactly range a critter is a different beast and I don't usually find that necessary. I'm usually ranging the terrain and building a mental range card before the critters ever show up. Though I will range the critter if I have time.

Like if a yote is on a bale at 509yds and I range the bale or the yote, no difference.

Or if the yote is in a tree line at 311yds and I range the tree line, no difference.

Now if I was in large flat fields that were say a mile long and half a mile wide (and I've been in such in Texas) then yes you have to range the critter. but that's in part how good is your co-witness (did you check it before going out that night) ? And what is the beam divergence.

I've owned five RAPTARs and three Radii and now I'm down to 3 radii because they work fine for me and I don't need to have all the extra funds tied up in the higher cost RAPTARs. But, the RAPTARs can certainly range farther, due to the more powerful 1550nm ranging lasers, there's no doubt about that. If you truly need to range yotes to 800yds, then the RAPTARs might be worth it. But I'd try the Radii first if it was me, I think they'll get the job done as well, if you are careful with your co-witnessing process (co-witness to a small target at 400yds and confirm it frequently).

The main ergonomic plus of the RAPTAR over the Radius is the size/weight. The RAPTARs are smaller and lighter. If every oz counts for you (moving long distances on foot) then that's a plus for the RAPTAR as well. And these days, I'm moving about 5km per night on foot with 40lbs of gear, so it matters to me, but I'm still not yet willing to spend an extra $2k to save 4 oz

I've heard people complain about both RAPTARs and Radii "loosing zero" ... for me, for ALL lasers, aiming or ranging or illum, etc. if it matters, I'm checking them often. So, I think it is as much about the "PROCESS" you use to co-witness and being consistent with that and checking them often, that increases "retaining zero" ... at least for me.
And for me, I've never even turned on the Illums on the RAPTARs, I use the RAPTARs the same way I use the Radii, range finder only.

... I’m also curious if the older Raptars (~2012) have similar ranging performance as the new group buy models ...

There is a v1 v2 hardware change in the RAPTARs. I know all the current manufacture S and S/ES are v2 ... mine was. And all the older regular RAPTARs and RAPTAR/ES I had were all v1. And there is a slight performance difference between them. But with both, I've been able to range terrain as far out as I have LOS from my land at night ...that's 5km at night.

The RAPTARs we were selling in the Group Buys over the past 2 years had manuf dates ranging between 2012 and 2017. Those were all Mil RAPTARs or Commercial RAPTAR ES. We had zero RAPTAR S or RAPTAR S/ES. Currently as far as I know, the only path to a new RAPTAR S/ES is thru back order with Optics Planet. When I got mine, it was a 60d back order, though I actually received it in 45d. That was pre-c-19 however, no idea what it is now.

==

FYI here's me ranging 12 inch steel at 804yds with v2 RAPTAR.

 

[McNamara0851]

Thanks for the quick and detailed response. Somehow that answers all my questions, but makes me more undecided.

I should have included this for clarity. This is how 80% of the ground lays that we hunt on, which is why I emphasize the need to be able to ping a coyote specifically. All input is appreciated, but at this point I feel like whatever I can pick up for less money than I could re-sell it for, will fill the void. The raptar daytime ranging the 12” plate does make my pants a little tight though.

Anyone have experience with getting either unit repaired, or is that even an option?

 

[wigwamitus]

Sorry to keep answering, but I have some relevant data on repairs for the RAPTARs.

Of the 94 we sold in the past 2 years ... I think six had issues. We were able to send them in to Wilcox and get them repaired as they were "new old stock" and hence still under warranty. It did take some "encouragement" as they did "resist" ... but we provided sufficient encouragement. Without a warranty, they might still repair it, but it might cost as much as a new one to repair it. Like many of the mil manufs, they don't particularly cater to commercial buyers and hence raise the $$ barrier on repairs to discourage.

On the Radii, I have no personal experience, I haven't needed to send one in (yet).

I have heard (read on the hide) that there is still a guy at SiCo who will "fix them if he can".

==
But as a general overview, I would assume that effectively, neither of them are repairable. I would except the S and S/ES models of the RAPTAR, they would be repairable during the 1 year warranty period. Perhaps another reason to go with SICO. Get 3 radii, put one on your rifle, put the other two on the shelf. When the first one dies an unrepairable death, toss it in the parts box and take the next one off the shelf.

Cheaper to use that strategy with the Radii than the RAPTARs.

==

... Somehow that answers all my questions, but makes me more undecided ...

That's not so unusual in this world, right !!??

As to your terrain.

One of my scenarios is I'm out there setup at a spot overwatching my calving cows. On a given night, I can range the cows and know the distances of the close ones and the far ones, etc.
I have bale feeders out there and the cows are usually pretty clustered around the bale feeders (winter calving) so that pins the distances as well.

Also, I have more terrain around my fields, tree lines, gulley's and such.

I memorize my DOPE in 50yds increments from 250yds to 500yds so I can mentally get within yote danger space out to 500yds based on a range.

The yotes will show up from any direction at any time. But I can bracket the distance they are at based on mental range card. I don't even have to range for most shots, I already know the distance well enough to get a hit, based on known objects in the field. But I do range whenever I have time.

If you are always hunting exactly the same fields, that's one scenario, if you are moving between 100 different giant flat fields, that's different as you wouldn't be able to place objects out there to help you range.

Are the yotes coming to bother calving cows ?? If so, they will be close to the cows anyway.

I'll try to range steel at 800yds today with a radius, I don't think I've tried. But I'm going out to check some things later and I'll toss one of my bolt guns in the buggy and try it and post back here.

 

[Squibbler]

Thanks for the quick and detailed response. Somehow that answers all my questions, but makes me more undecided.View attachment 7569116
View attachment 7569083I should have included this for clarity. This is how 80% of the ground lays that we hunt on, which is why I emphasize the need to be able to ping a coyote specifically. All input is appreciated, but at this point I feel like whatever I can pick up for less money than I could re-sell it for, will fill the void. The raptar daytime ranging the 12” plate does make my pants a little tight though.

Anyone have experience with getting either unit repaired, or is that even an option?

Your goals:

1. Coyote size
2. Nighttime
3. 800 yards
4. Flat open terrain
5. Reliable
6. Sounds like leaning toward budget friendly


Listening to your needs, I think the radius would fit your requirements list. If you get a good working radius you will be able to range 12" steel to 1050-1150 yards from my experience. Both mine are consistently able to hit the 1100 yard mark with 12" steel during daytime. I have heard of some units only hitting 800-900 yards...so luck of the draw??? Otherwise at nighttime the ranging ability of the radius doubles and triples. I have accurately ranged a coyote (specifically) at night at 1058 yards. Getting a ping off a coyote is easy peasy in wide open terrain with the radius due to its wide horizontal divergence (if mounted above optic, side mounting on rail will give you wide vertical divergence). I'd probably pick the radius for this feature alone if wanted critter ranging in wide open terrain. The downside of this is accurate ranging through woodland, swamp, etc. An example....I ranged a coyote through an opening of wood/brushed swamp while he was sitting on a muskrat mound. Radius told me 249 yards, actual was 314 yards. This error occurred due to radius pinging trees in front of coyote. He was still in danger space even though a .4mil difference from POA and POI.

Wig, makes an excellent point to consistently recheck co-witness. From my experience, my units have maintained zero relatively well. Yes there have been shifts, but mostly it seems they were within .5mil and most commonly they were horizontal shifts. There has never been a shift that resulted in the reason for failure in the field. But this may be also on my part of recognizing the mount is the weak point of the system and I tend to it accordingly.

 

[wigwamitus]

2021-02-28
1200-1400
40F
20 MPH WNW

Goal: Range steel at 800yds with Radius

Environment: Sunny and windy

Equipment:
Leica 3500 + Manfrotto M190 + Manfrotto PT rotate Head
762(22)B + L&S 3-18x T3 + Radius + RRS + Anvil-30
Buggy

Went to 826yd point and setup Leica in buggy bed. Got 98yd trying to range 826yd steel. Leica brand new and I haven't learned the menu yet. I guess its in "brush" mode. So ranged a Big Man sized juniper at 1114yd ranging side to side of that juniper got 1143yd and 1139yd, I'm ranging 4 degrees down hill so that gave me confidence the 1114yd was the juniper.
With the radius, ranged several times, got 1110yd for the juniper, got no return trying to range side to side.

Not sure why phone cam blanking out on the display, it looked fine 100% to the mk1eb

rolled forward to same fence post I got the 804yd shot from 2 years ago.

Leica couldn't range the steel again, kept ranging the grass on the hill I was on.

Radius got 805yds on the steel, no return on the berm.

So, today this radius could range Big Man sized juniper at 1110y and steel at 805y.

I noted a while back that if I can't range a tree line, find a juniper (or other evergreen) they give better returns.
==

Tony !

The downside of this is accurate ranging through woodland, swamp, etc. An example....I ranged a coyote through an opening of wood/brushed swamp while he was sitting on a muskrat mound. Radius told me 249 yards, actual was 314 yards. This error occurred due to radius pinging trees in front of coyote.

All three of my radii have feature where they show 3 different ranges ! Primary, Secondary and Tertiary. And I LOVE that feature. Maybe yours don't do that !!?? But based on prior data (gained from building range card when I set up) I can usually figure out critter range from the 3 shown.
The Mil RAPTAR and RAPTAR ES only give 1 distance.
The S and S/ES give multiple distances BUT, only one at a time, you have to push button to cycle thru them (4).
The Radius shows all three. I am usually ranging thru vegetation (to wit Leica couldn't range the steel) ... and the Radius showing the multiple distances helps a lot! It might be you have to turn that on, I don't recall. If so, I turned it on and left it on !

 

[Squibbler]

All three of my radii have feature where they show 3 different ranges ! Primary, Secondary and Tertiary. And I LOVE that feature. Maybe yours don't do that !!?? But based on prior data (gained from building range card when I set up) I can usually figure out critter range from the 3 shown.
The Mil RAPTAR and RAPTAR ES only give 1 distance.
The S and S/ES give multiple distances BUT, only one at a time, you have to push button to cycle thru them (4).
The Radius shows all three. I am usually ranging thru vegetation (to wit Leica couldn't range the steel) ... and the Radius showing the multiple distances helps a lot! It might be you have to turn that on, I don't recall. If so, I turned it on and left it on !

Yes, good point! In the heat of the moment I went with the big number (primary). Cause this was a Wiley one, so was not hesitating. So, didn't even look at the secondary or tertiary. When I went back and ranged again after the kill there was only primary read of 249 and no secondary/tertiary reads.... But there was no coyote on that mound either, lol. So there may have been an accurate secondary/tertiary read when I took the shot, but at the time my mind was focused on the target. Later verified the yardage with GPS.

Being honest I don't look at those secondary/tertiary numbers....muddy the waters??? You've made a good point though, and going to try utilizing these again, because would be useful for assuring danger space. When not confident which of the three listed is the correct range.

 

[wigwamitus]

Yeah, I don't look at the secondary or tertiary numbers in the heat of the moment either. Hecque, I usually don't even always range, since I've already made my mental range card and I can thus work out the range to nearest 50yds, match to my mental DOPE card, hold and shoot. But if I have time to range, I do. And when I'm building the mental range card, I do then as well. Of course, four times last year, as soon as I fired up the UTC there was already a yote in view, they don't always wait for you to get ready !!

 

[CBDR]

I was going to start a new thread, but it seems that the people I need to hear from are already here. I have a specific set of questions pertaining to the performance of the radius vs a civilian power raptar used solely at night, mounted to an EFR, used for ranging coyotes (not landmarks, buildings, or trees) on FLAT open ground out to 800 yards. I run Simrads with laser Illuminators attached to them. I can see as far as I can feasibly shoot. The being said, the illumination on the raptar is not of much concern except for resale value.

I hunt with a friend who runs a XP50LRF. I have also owned an Axion LRF. I have come to the conclusion that Pulsars’ LRF leaves quite a bit to be desired beyond 400 yards. I sold my Axion and got on the preorder list for a helion XP50 pro with the intention of going weapons mounted LRF. I’ve hunted a few times with a friend that has a trijicon/radius setup. He was able to get me on one at 437 yards with seemingly little effort. I haven’t had a chance to play with his setup at all, but he didn’t seem 100% in love with it.

With that in mind, I would like to hear the opinions of people who have used or own both units in conjunction with NV. How far can you reliably ping a coyote with either unit on an average night (50% humidity, no precipitation, rifle mounted to a tripod)? If you owned a radius and upgraded to the raptar, solely for the LRF capability, did you notice a performance gain inside of 800 yards on small targets? Is one more reliable, consistent, better at holding a zero, easier on batteries etc.? Illumination aside, with the sole intention of ranging coyotes in the dark out to 800 yards, keeping budget in mind, but not making it a limiting factor what unit would you choose? Will either work for my application? Would I be better off buying 3 Radius, over one Raptar? I’m also curious if the older Raptars (~2012) have similar ranging performance as the new group buy models.

Please help me spend my money before it all goes to strippers and booze.

Excellent question. I have been on the fence for a little over two years on going all in on a rifle mounted laser range finder. My current range finder is an off the shelf entry level handheld that has served me well out to 500m during daylight hours. I am not a subject matter expert on range finders. However for the past 40 + years of operating surface search radars I grasp the concept of how range is determined. My off the shelf device is unable to preform this task in hours of darkness. My ability to successfully engage targets at night at distance is as Wig described it is (mental dope). Based on which plot of land I'm hunting. 75% of my shooting is inside of 400m most of that is heavy swamp vegetation. My question is, what is available on todays market comparable to the Radius.
Need to be able to range in the dark out to 800m
Does not have to be rifle mounted.
Price point TBD

Last nights full moon and coyotes in an open field taunted me.

R/
CBDR

 

[Squibbler]

they don't always wait for you to get ready !!

Hear ya on that.... Jump out of truck to shoot some yellow. Multiple sound off on near hillside. Forgot to close the barn door while grabbing for rifle. Ten below temps reminded me later that the boys were still exposed. New meaning for nature call

 

[Hornhunter]

Trybe Defense has a weapons mounted LRF. I believe it was just released as there isn’t much info out there for it.

TRYBE Optics DiMA1000 Laser Rangefinder, Color: Black, Maximum Range: 1000 yds, Up to 53% Off, Blazin' Deal w/ Free S&H — 3 models

Shop TRYBE Optics DiMA1000 Laser Rangefinder | Up to 53% Off 4.4 Star Rating on 5 Reviews for TRYBE Optics DiMA1000 Laser Rangefinder Blazin' Deal + Free Shipping over $49.

www.opticsplanet.com

 

[Squibbler]

Trybe Defense has a weapons mounted LRF. I believe it was just released as there isn’t much info out there for it.

TRYBE Optics DiMA1000 Laser Rangefinder, Color: Black, Maximum Range: 1000 yds, Up to 53% Off, Blazin' Deal w/ Free S&H — 3 models

Shop TRYBE Optics DiMA1000 Laser Rangefinder | Up to 53% Off 4.4 Star Rating on 5 Reviews for TRYBE Optics DiMA1000 Laser Rangefinder Blazin' Deal + Free Shipping over $49.

www.opticsplanet.com

Hmmm.... interesting.

My question is, what is available on todays market comparable to the Radius.

Before hornhunter mentioned this (Dima1000), my answer was nothing. For dynamic situations like coyote hunting and at the price point, nothing comparable to the radius. This new option could be a possibility, will have to check out further.

If you are okay with spending a couple K more, then raptar and newcon.

 

[wigwamitus]

Finding a used Radius or Rapar ES ... ($1,100 ish for the Radius ... $3,200 ish for the ES)
Buying a new (or used) Raptar S/ES ... ($6,900 for a new S/ES with AB)
We have an Armasight AMRF2200 for $1,300
And the Newcon Seeker S for $2,600 ish or the M model for $5,400 ish

Oh, and there will be a HALO-LRF with a range finder out in April-ish, but we'll need to get hands on one to be able to tell what the range finder can actually do.

I'm guessing "TRYBE" are made in Asia. Does anyone know ?

I believe most of the Newcon are made in Ukraine, but I haven't visited their factory, so can't confirm.

The others in the above list are/were made in USA.

 

[stefan73]

I'd love to have a rifle mounted LRF but they stopped production on the Radius, right? And the Wilcox is just too expensive for me, especially with the watered down illuminator. That just won't fly with a PVS30. Those two are the only real contenders, right? Really should've bought a couple Radius when they came out, didn't see that coming.

I went through a divorce so it changed what I was gonna be able to do regarding a spotting setup. I wanted a Hensoldt and a Vectronix but wound up with a USO observation scope in 10-40x and an LRR-104 MK5 LRF good to six miles, both for $1000 shipped. So far I'm pleased with it. I'd still like a nicer spotter but I don't think a better LRF for the price can be had, not at $400.

A few members on the 'Hide kicked in some support and help and made the SS mount it all connects to, another fellow made an industrial plastic USO to PVS14 adapter and I threaded it with helicoils and installed polymer bolts. Some other mods were made and it's not finished but here's what I have so far:
View attachment 7006620
The idea is to take the PEQ's laser and zero it to infinity on the observation scope's reticle. It'll all be off a little, but I'm hoping at range it won't matter. Eventually a kestrel and a PDA will be added for ballistics calculation.

So the idea is to look through the observation scope with the PVS14 and when I can laze the target with the PEQ, I should be able to tap the LRF and get a reading despite not being able to see through it. So far it seems to need some work as at 100m it came close to burning in. Not sure if the scope magnifies the laser radiation or if it sat in one place too long. But it's a solid idea, if I can get it to work like I want at night. During the day it's a very solid setup indeed. The LRF has a 7x day viwer and a Class 4 laser, an Nd:Yag @1064nm and 500mW to 1Watt I'm guessing in power. It's capable of ablating the retina completely off, has an optical density of 14 on the viewer, and at that power it's just dangerous to anyone around. The 1550's and others came literally the year after mine was made, so they stopped issuing these. But that powerful laser did solve the problem of lasing a truck size target at 10,000m within +/- 10m and it not be visible w/night vision. I just have to be careful as hell with it. But it's not something you see everyday. Was like winning the Ebay lottery IMO.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

These things turn up from time to time, if you buy one just be damn careful with it.

They are out there.

MINT Litton LRR-104 Mk V Handheld Military Laser Rangefinder >5 Mile Range! RARE | eBay

Litton LRR-104 Mark V Miniature LASER Rangefinder. Note : This rangefinder is not eye-safe. It uses a Nd:YAG 1064 nm laser! Laser rangefinder. Training filter (attenuates laser so that it can be used for short-range training).

www.ebay.com

 

[billditt]

Anyone tried Trybe rifle mounted RF?

 

[Conqueror]

Finding a used Radius or Rapar ES ... ($1,100 ish for the Radius ... $3,200 ish for the ES)
Buying a new (or used) Raptar S/ES ... ($6,900 for a new S/ES with AB)
We have an Armasight AMRF2200 for $1,300
And the Newcon Seeker S for $2,600 ish or the M model for $5,400 ish

Oh, and there will be a HALO-LRF with a range finder out in April-ish, but we'll need to get hands on one to be able to tell what the range finder can actually do.

I'm guessing "TRYBE" are made in Asia. Does anyone know ?

I believe most of the Newcon are made in Ukraine, but I haven't visited their factory, so can't confirm.

The others in the above list are/were made in USA.

I know this is an old thread but since it got dredged up we might as well update this list for future reference right?

Weapon-mounted LRFs worth owning, if you can get your grubby mitts on one:
- SiCo Radius
- Wilcox Raptar ES, S/ES, and S
- Wilcox MRF Xe
- Armasight AMRF2200 (does anyone actually own one of these? I've never seen one in the wild)
- Newcon Seeker S/M
- L3 RULR
- L3 STORM and STORM SLX
- L3 SPEAR
- L3 SRF
- Envision MARS-L
- Rheinmetall FCS-TacRay Ballistic
- Sector Optics G1T2 (Vaporware?)
- Safran ICUGR
- IR&D Vampire Solo
- FN Elity (Vaporware?)

Have I missed any?

 

[Ditt]

Thanks, good list. Im a semi retired elect engineer. i just bought a radius used. As i get some experience i may look at building a cost effective one. All the components are out there, so many laser RFs exist. A rail mounted RF would be very doable to Burris, Sig, really anyone making a handheld RF. The display, the mount system need to be added. Burris Eliminator 4 uses a bluetooth trigger that replaces a switch and cable, and worked pretty well.