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Reasons for you taking bolt-action over semi-auto?

T

The_New_Sniper

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Minuteman
Feb 6, 2014
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NJ
I'm a rather new shooter to precision shooting. I also lurk this site a lot.

I'm trying to understand why one would want to take bolt-action over semi-automatic for a .308 WIN gun. For other calibers such as .338 lapua, .300 WSM, etc, it would be understandable. But for shooting under 1000 yards, why take bolt over semi? There are many accurate AR-10 style rifles available now, GAP-10, JP LRP-07, LaRue's offerings, and like-wise. They all shoot under 1 MOA, and with proper shooting technique and ammo, skilled shooters can use it to shoot .5-.7 MOA (I've seen one range report where someone shot .2 MOA with 5 shots. Blue moon, but still).

These guns can easily shoot under 1 MOA at ranges varying from 500-700. I understand that bolt-action guns can shoot much more tighter groups, .2-.3 with top of the line guns, but any other reason why you'd take a .308 WIN bolt over semi-auto?

Also, hunting is irrelevant, this is more for long range shooting.
 
Reliability. A bolt action has fewer moving parts and will almost always prove more reliable.

Beyond that from a military standpoint a sniper system is offensive... If you're engaging targets at 600+ meters chances are you're the predator. There are certainly times when a semi-auto is preferable such as providing overwatch, but those times are usually at closer ranges and/or more defensive in orientation. If you're looking at a true one shot, one kill at distance scenario; accuracy and reliability will be of the utmost importance.
 
You can't push as hot of loads. You can't seat your bullet wherever you want due to magazine requirements. If you want to compete, a lot of times there are requirements to keep your bolt back on certain parts of the stage and that sucks for auto loaders. They're a lot heavier when compared to a bolt gun with the same barrel. I have a 24" GAP-10. These are things I live with, but I still love it :)
 
I too go back and forth over the years. I like my m14 rifle and it's accurate enough but my bolt gun is more accurate more often. I know the m14 is no ar10 but I haven't been around an ar10 yet that was reliable enough for me to be comfortable with.
 
I have shot some real nice semi's in my day. I have never shot one that gives me that tingling in my balls like a bolt gun. It just feels right.
 
I've also shot some really nice auto loaders, and I do not claim bolt guns are more accurate. I've even laid down some great groups with auto loaders.

But nowhere near as consistently as the bolt gun. Nowhere near.

I doubt it's the rifle, which to me says a bolt gun is more forgiving to shoot well. Because I don't have any need to lay down a "wall of lead", I'll choose the boltgun because with me behind it, I've got a better chance of hitting the target.
 
main reason is: much much hotter loads and i like to work a bolt, it slows me down a lot. I have 11 AR's in 6 different calibers that I won't trade anytime either. A couple of my AR's shoot pretty far too ( both 6MM Ar and 6.5 creedmoor reach 1000yds easy)
cheers.
 
The question is, why a semi-auto over a bolt gun?
This is a good read.

Semi-Auto vs Bolt Gun: Precision/Tactical Matches

For the current competitions the bolt action rifle has the advantage. Currently most major matches use a par time for points scoring method, and a limited round count for stage or target. Most of the shots taken are taken from non-standard less then optimal firing positions. When shooting from less stable positions under time constraint fast lock time and light triggers are a distinct advantage. With a bolt action shooters can utilize a light hold on the rifle when in the worst firing positions, where the semi-auto with light trigger has a high possibility of doubling if proper fundamentals aren't applied. The doubling isn't a huge problem unless the round doesn't impact safely, however if there's a limited round count on the stage then one has been wasted. Regarding follow-up shots or transitioning from target to target the bolt action has no disadvantage if the shooter can cycle the bolt during the recoil impulse, while moving the rifle/position to another target, or while readjusting his position after recoil.
Now lets consider ammunition. When selecting ammo to use in a semi-auto you must consider magazine length and the ability to cycle the rifle properly. When using the longest 6.5 or 6mm bullets you may have trouble optimizing the ammunition. Bullet selection and velocity play a bigger roll in points scored then semi vs bolt. If you can fire a high BC bullet at the highest velocity allowed then you have a huge advantage when dealing with the variables your sure to encounter in a match.
Until the rules set fourth by match directors depict a more realistic shooting environment then we'll never know which type of rifle is truly superior. I would like to see a scoring method used that was time plus penalties. An even better scoring system would be points scored divided by time taken to score the points. That would give the most three demential look at the weapon/shooter capability, rewording both speed and accuracy. Set a time limit on stages and deduct for targets not engaged. Let competitors fire all the rounds they want. It's almost always faster to hit with the first round. Look at stage winners from 3gun carbine stages. The top scorer will go one for one on the distance targets.
I believe that most would be surprised if those scoring methods were used. The bolt rifles would still prove superior as long as the targets were less then 2MOA and beyond 300m. 66% IPSC targets inside 300m from prone or supported firing positions the semi would be at the advantage.
If you haven't been to a match I ask that you take the equipment that you have, practice with the intent of winning, take your performance seriously, learn from your experience, then please come back and share your findings. Help grow our sport and our understanding of long range shooting.

"A man with a scoped rifle is master of all he surveys" Jeff Cooper.
 
cramey74 said:
Because bolt guns are sexy.
Click to expand...

Pointman308 said:
^^^^^^This^^^^^
Click to expand...

longrangefool said:
Lol this too
Click to expand...


You guys just like to play with your "knobs"
muttleyanim.gif
 
The semi's are just not as accurate as my AIAW or TRG 22 and are a lot harder to shoot than bolt action. I have a Larue OBR, LMT MWS, POF P-308 among others and none come close to either of my 2 308 bolt actions.
 
I would say triggers and Lock time should be in there too. I have never felt as good as trigger on bolt actions.
 
I hate to be master of the obvious, but the answer depends on your need for speed vs. accuracy.

Semis are much faster. Bolts are more slightly more accurate.

What game do you play?

Shooting 700 yards and in with a need for speed--I take a semi auto. 700 yards + with no time constraints, I would take a bolt gun.
 
I think of it like a revolver vs. a semi auto pistol. Do the semi auto pistols have advantages? You bet they do. That's why I own them. But the revolver has some advantages too. Revolvers always go bang, no jams, misfeeds, stove pipes, ect. Same principal with a bolt gun. They just work, its almost 100% reliable, add on all the great points listed above and for me the choice is easy.
 
cramey74 said:
I have shot some real nice semi's in my day. I have never shot one that gives me that tingling in my balls like a bolt gun. It just feels right.
Click to expand...

Yeah, man! THE tingle. Thought I was the only one.

Have no interest in gassers. Maybe it's just me.
 
valkyries said:
Revolvers always go bang, no jams, misfeeds, stove pipes, ect.
Click to expand...


And as a quick note, revolvers are still the only 100% reliable firearm if you have to shoot more than one round from inside a jacket pocket. Nice feature if you are out at night on some city streets.
 
A bolt action is much easier to tweak to give you a specialty round such as a very long light weight bullet that may not chamber into the semi-auto loader or a super sub sonic heavy round that flies more like a hand grenade.

There is also the problem of bullet being damaged by the action of the auto-loader would not be as likely to happen if you hand load a round.

If you want absolute silent shooting you will do better with the breach not flying open when you fire the round.

It is just easier to find tune a bold gun to your special needs.
 
I had an early 700VS 308 that was a one hole gun when I did my part. Back then I longed for a Nat'l Match M1A but didn't have the money. I got into shotgun shooting and sold the 700 to buy a shotgun. Fast forward a decade I had an opportunity to buy a NM M1A. I put a gen 3 mount on it with a Leupold target scope. I was disappointed in the accuracy to the point of almost being sick. In hindsight, the gun really didn't shoot that bad, but it paled in comparison to my old 700.

As someone else said if you reload a brass slinger is NOT your friend.

I do own a M-4 clone and it shoots really good, but I have it more for a SHTF gun than anything.
 
For me it's all about "shootability". I find a bolt gun consistently easier to put a round on target. I've had some very accurate and capable AR's in 6mmAR, 6mmART40, 243 ,243WSSM. I'd place them at 90% as capable as my bolt guns for putting rounds on steel.
 
For a sniper, you would think turn-bolt and 99% of the time you might be right. They are more reliable (less moving parts) as someone pointed out. But, say, you have just sanctioned your target,
your staying concealed because someone is glassing for you. You move, you're probably dead. Bad guy looking for you, you've just fired and need to reload, bad guy sees the movement from, say,
even 800 meters, you're dead. Auto loader, same deal, you've just fired, reload is automatic, no extra movements to give you away, you're ready to fire again, just in case they start beating the bush for you. Don't get me wrong, I love my turn-bolts, but I've used auto loaders with equal effectiveness and felt better concealed. It comes down to what you're most effective with,and,or, what
your unit, department decides is best for the job.
 
Dark Angel said:
For a sniper, you would think turn-bolt and 99% of the time you might be right. They are more reliable (less moving parts) as someone pointed out. But, say, you have just sanctioned your target,
your staying concealed because someone is glassing for you. You move, you're probably dead. Bad guy looking for you, you've just fired and need to reload, bad guy sees the movement from, say,
even 800 meters, you're dead. Auto loader, same deal, you've just fired, reload is automatic, no extra movements to give you away, you're ready to fire again, just in case they start beating the bush for you. Don't get me wrong, I love my turn-bolts, but I've used auto loaders with equal effectiveness and felt better concealed. It comes down to what you're most effective with,and,or, what
your unit, department decides is best for the job.
Click to expand...

Unless you're hunting people who wipe their ass with a bare hand chances are slim that you'll not be fired on with something real big after the first shot. We're not the only Country with "technology" like Boomerang or IGD's.
 
I can't imagine an auto loader going of 3000 rounds with out incident and holding .5 MOA like my recently dis-assembled bolt gun did.
 
It's just like everything else in life...there are tradeoffs. I can hone a bushing for a colt government model 45. that lets that nasty bitch shoot inch groups at 50 yards, but as soon as the barrel starts to heat up the slide will lock back. Sloppiness is one of the main reasons a kalishnakov is so reliable. Secondly until they figure out a way to mitigate the blast that's belches out of a semi-auto's breech by an effective muffler then you'll never have the suppression qualities a bolt gun can deliver. For long range surgical precision a bolt gun is the ideal platform.
 
I have had both. Can't really say why, but I love lining up behind a bolt gun and taking the shot. Just not the same with a Semi-Auto.
 
Bolt gun . And for those that understand ....No explanation is necessary . For those who don't ? No explanation will suffice . And my own personal opinion is that if you are 800 mtrs. out , and can't run a bolt to re-load , then maybe your "hide" isn't as good as you thought .
Gas does have advantage when you're playin multiple targets , but how often is a "Mission" designated multiple targets , on a "High Value" target . Multiple targets ? Multiple shooters !
 
Bolt guns can be held to tighter tolerances and still be very reliable. As you tighten up the tolerances on a Semi Auto, you are going to run into reliability issues. Tighter tolerances lends itself to increased accuracy.

Plus, I like to shoot suppressed and a suppressed semi will never be as quiet as a bolt rifle.
 
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OP, It would better to ask "What does a semi-auto offer in a precision rifle setting/environment that a bolt action does not?" and the answer is a fast follow up shot/s...

Yup, that's about its only redeeming quality...

Many folks here shoot matches, how may allow second shot opportunities on the same targets? I am sure some do but most that I have shot in or heard of you get one shot per target.
 
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I got tired of having to clean the bolt/carrier all the time and carrying a pocket full of spare parts.

I still have "semi-s" (3 of them) but I prefer my B/A's for accuracy. With a little practice one can shoot a "Mad Minute" with a good bolt action.

Mad minute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's fun to see how many "hits" on that 300 yard target you can get in exactly 60 seconds. Might be a piece of cake to get 30 or more with a semi but it's a challenge with a B/A.

BTW, remember that the soldiers were doing this with Iron Sights and no bipods, fancy trigger assy's etc. Also with only a 10 round internal magazine replenished with 5-round charger clips.
 
Lock time. Test by me. Shooting a bolt gun and gasser side by side on a concrete bench with bags, the bolt gun 3/8" gasser 3/4". Both are great groups for any tactical match (not a benchrest match).

Shooting both off a rickety barricade, bolt gun 1 1/2", gasser 3-4".

This is why new guys brag about how well their new AR-10 shoots and then go to a match and do poorly...lock time.
 
i took a semi auto (in 6.5cm) to a match for the first time at Rifles Only a couple weeks ago, it had no problems keeping up with the bolt guns on most stages and it felt like i was cheating on the movers...the 350 yd barricade mover i was top score (7/10) and then on the 515 yd prone mover i shot it for speed...hit 5/10 (in the top 5) and while everyone shot their 10 rnds in 2 passes...i shot them all in 1 pass...it was fun and i actually finished 5th which was my best finish at that type of match. i did have double feeding issues on the first 2 stages which cost me but i just chalked that up to new mags/gun combo, it was a nice change of pace challenge...still love my bolt guns tho
 
To address some of the lovely "Urban Legends" here:

Accuracy:
First thing, contrary to popular belief, there are now a number of semi-autos that will hang with a similar style/quality bolt rifle. The LE Sniper Qual Target below was shot with a JP LRP-07.


We now have just short of a years worth of LE Sniper Quals on these rifles, that are all on par with the shooters who are running bolt rifles.

Second thing, at some point in the REAL WORLD, good enough is good enough. Those JP LRP-07 rifles have shown that they will consistently shoot below 1 MOA, which is more than adequate for the application where they are used. Yes, there may be someone with a bolt rifle who under the best possible conditions could shoot a 1/4 MOA better, but is that really going to matter in the real world, NO.


Reliability:
Whether you want to look at the Int Sniper Comp at Ft Benning or the USASOC Int Sniper Comp at Ft Bragg, there is no shortage of Tier 1 Real World Operators who are running a semi-auto sniper rifle.



I have yet to hear any of them complaining about the reliability of any of the quality semi-auto platforms. Yes the M110s can suck, but there is obviously much better options available now and they are proving themselves in use. Sorry, but if those guys who currently live and die on a two way range with those rifles are OK with the reliability level, then I am OK with them.


What the "Pros Use":
While I am not going to downplay the importance or skill set of the PRS and its shooters, it is not the "end all to be all". There are many competitions that based on the way they are setup, handicap a shooter who is running a semi-auto. You can't fairly fault a rifle/shooter because the circumstances they are shooting under are what produces a less than optimal result. Also per above, if the real world shooters who live & die by their rifles are choosing to go with a semi-auto, then there may be some significance to that decision.


This Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pK8fSVuxVaU
This video proves a lot of things, but the fact that a bolt rifle is better than a semi-auto rifle is not one of them. The saying "It is not about the bow & arrow, but the Indian behind it" comes into play. I am willing to bet the shooter behind the semi-auto has the least amount of training and experience out of all of the shooters. Also, the semi-auto here, is a dog compared to the competition match rifles that are being fired against it. A rack grade G3 rifle is a not a precision rifle, it is a main battle rifle. The shooter with the semi-auto was only allowed to load 4 rounds per mag, taking away a huge advantage of the platform. Also note, one of the shooters with a BOLT RIFLE had a MISFEED, so much for that reliability argument!


I am not going to argue that a semi-auto is the best choice for every possible shooting application. However, I am not also going to live in the dark ages and rely on urban legends when it comes to picking the rifle that will ultimately work the best for what I am doing. Yes, I own BOTH, and there is a time and place where I will choose one over the other.

Sorry, but the only way the world of precision long range shooting will move forward is if we can stop living in the past, and we can start looking at new things and really giving them a fair and honest evaluation!
 
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In combat I would probably prefer a semi. But we are not in combat. And comparing military sniper trained personal to top shooters in the PRS is not really fair. VERY few military/LEO shooters can out shoot their civilian counterparts...(I'm ex ARMY)



In the matches that I have shot with active duty sniper trained teams, they told me thats it's very intimidating to shoot with top PRS guys. " we are supposed to be the baddest mofo's on the battlefield and just got smoked by two old guys in overalls" was the quote a 2nd group team stated that was in my squad at a match.

When gas gun captures the top ten spots on the PRS then we will listen. And a lot of the top of the line gas gun manufactures owners run their bolts in comps....and win, Gap etc.
 
1st, they generally are more accurate. My 2 are the TRG22 and the AIAW. 2nd, they are a lot easier to shoot. None of my semi 308's, which includes an OBR a POF P-308 and a LMT MWSE come close in accuracy.
 
finbox said:
In combat I would probably prefer a semi. But we are not in combat. And comparing military sniper trained personal to top shooters in the PRS is not really fair. VERY few military/LEO shooters can out shoot their civilian counterparts...(I'm ex ARMY)

In the matches that I have shot with active duty sniper trained teams, they told me thats it's very intimidating to shoot with top PRS guys. " we are supposed to be the baddest mofo's on the battlefield and just got smoked by two old guys in overalls" was the quote a 2nd group team stated that was in my squad at a match.

When gas gun captures the top ten spots on the PRS then we will listen. And a lot of the top of the line gas gun manufactures owners run their bolts in comps....and win, Gap etc.
Click to expand...

Sorry, guess I was not clear enough on a couple of things?

Last time I checked this was SNIPER'S HIDE. While it is very obvious that the actual LE & Mil Snipers participating here are significantly out numbered, and the majority of what goes on here actually has nothing to do with Sniping, it is nice if the discussion here is occasional based on real world facts and not just regurgitated internet reality.

Reliability - from where I set, the guy who could end up dead if he has a malfunction, versus the guy who would drop from first place to third place in a match, has a little bit more on the line when it comes to reliability. The fact of the matters is, there are plenty of Tier 1 Operators who are comfortable with the reliability level of their semi-auto rifles, contrary to some of the comments made here. Personally, I am going to base my decisions on feedback from from the real world, versus what is simply a popular opinion on an internet forum. Hence my reference to Military Operators.

Application - you are correct, I am not going to compare the SKILL SET of a Mil Sniper operating in a combat zone to that of a PRS Competitor operating on a one way range. I am not going to do that because it would be an apple to oranges comparison. As such, the 2 SF Operators should remember that if you took the PRS competitors and dropped them in the middle of a combat zone, that they would probably not do so well. The SF shooters may well be the baddest mofos on the battlefield, and the 2 PRS shooters may well be the baddest in competitive shooting, but no one should ever make the mistake of comparing the two against one another. That being the case, I am going to look at both of their skill sets, along with the skill sets possessed by Benchrest, Highpower, Long Range, 3-Gun, and any other shooters that that I can learn and benefit from. The key is making sure that I fully understand that just because it has relevance and works in one application, does not mean that it is it has relevance and will work the best for my given application.

Context - Sorry, but I could personally give a crap what position any rifle type/make holds in the PRS standings! Why?
- The standings in the PRS have a lot more to do with the Indian behind the Bow & Arrow, then they do with what Bow & Arrow that the Indian is using. I am willing to bet that you could change the rifle that they are using, and they still would win!
- If you look at the PRS top ten, the majority of them are sponsored shooters using the equipment that their sponsor supplies. You don't think that has anything to do with what equipment is being used?
- Running a Semi-Auto in the majority of the PRS matches would put you at a disadvantage due to the restrictions and rules. Why would a shooter choose to use a rifle system that put them at a disadvantage from the start?
- You also have to look at some of the match formats in terms of the ranges involved. Why would someone try and win a long distance match with an inferior caliber rifle?

There is value in what takes place in the PRS, however anything coming out of it must all be looked at in the context of the big picture. You are not going to see the top shooters in Long Range F-Class, NRA Higpower, or IBS Benchrest, doing what the shooters in PRS are doing. Likewise, contrary to popular belief, the Mil & LE Sniper communities are not going to live or die based on what is happening in the PRS. I participate in, and follow every form of shooting discipline that I can, because each one of them ultimately can add value to the other. That being the case, I also have to constantly make sure that I am keeping each one of them in perspective.

Apologies, if I am coming across as confrontational or aggressive, but as an old fart I am reaching a point where my tolerance for fact-less internet mythology is getting very limited. I work with new Civ, LE, and Mil shooters on a daily basis, and I can't begin to account for all of the garbage that they pick up off of various internet forums. One person reads it on one forum, and then turns around and posts it another, not having any idea if there is any truth to it or not. Plenty of people more than willing to give advice on a topic that they have never personally had anything to do with. After 28 years behind the rifle, my days of doing are pretty much over, I am now hoping that I can help those who will follow in my footsteps. My biggest challenge now, is trying to keep fact separated from fiction. I will cease with the rambling, Thanks.
 
Dark Angel said:
your staying concealed because someone is glassing for you. You move, you're probably dead. Bad guy looking for you, you've just fired and need to reload, bad guy sees the movement from, say, even 800 meters, you're dead. Auto loader, same deal, you've just fired, reload is automatic, no extra movements to give you away
Click to expand...
so does a guy slowly running a bolt attract more attention at distance than an empty shell ejected from an auto flying through the vegetation?

LRShooter101 said:
Application - you are correct, I am not going to compare the SKILL SET of a Mil Sniper operating in a combat zone to that of a PRS Competitor operating on a one way range. I am not going to do that because it would be an apple to oranges comparison. As such, the 2 SF Operators should remember that if you took the PRS competitors and dropped them in the middle of a combat zone, that they would probably not do so well. The SF shooters may well be the baddest mofos on the battlefield, and the 2 PRS shooters may well be the baddest in competitive shooting, but no one should ever make the mistake of comparing the two against one another. That being the case, I am going to look at both of their skill sets, along with the skill sets possessed by Benchrest, Highpower, Long Range, 3-Gun, and any other shooters that that I can learn and benefit from. The key is making sure that I fully understand that just because it has relevance and works in one application, does not mean that it is it has relevance and will work the best for my given application.
Click to expand...
Very true.

But, for a guy like the OP who states "I'm a rather new shooter to precision shooting", would you recommend a bot gun or a semi for him to learn the ropes on for his 1st precision gun? Would you want a guy who is just starting to reload for the first time to begin by working up loads on a semi? When you are just beginning to learn natural point of aim and shooting fundamentals that take as much human and mechanical err out as possible, would you recommend a semi as a starting point? At this point in the OP's development, do you think that what SF do when dropped into a war zone has any bearing on learning to shoot a precision rifle? Is it worth it for a noob to buy a 1/2 MOA semi when he can get a bolt gun that does the same at less than a 3rd of the cost?

For a guy who is never going to be dropped into a war zone on SF missions, would it be prudent to ignore the fact that a bolt gun will shoot tighter groups, be easier to master, be more reliable over the long haul, and give him reloading options not available to semi-auto users of the same caliber?
 
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