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Reasons for you taking bolt-action over semi-auto?

desert dog said:
so does a guy slowly running a bolt attract more attention at distance than an empty shell ejected from an auto flying through the vegetation?


Very true.

But, for a guy like the OP who states "I'm a rather new shooter to precision shooting", would you recommend a bot gun or a semi for him to learn the ropes on for his 1st precision gun? Would you want a guy who is just starting to reload for the first time to begin by working up loads on a semi? When you are just beginning to learn natural point of aim and shooting fundamentals that take as much human and mechanical err out as possible, would you recommend a semi as a starting point? At this point in the OP's development, do you think that what SF do when dropped into a war zone has any bearing on learning to shoot a precision rifle? Is it worth it for a noob to buy a 1/2 MOA semi when he can get a bolt gun that does the same at less than a 3rd of the cost?

For a guy who is never going to be dropped into a war zone on SF missions, would it be prudent to ignore the fact that a bolt gun will shoot tighter groups, be easier to master, be more reliable over the long haul, and give him reloading options not available to semi-auto users of the same caliber?
Click to expand...

In context, I am pretty sure that the OP is not the only one reading this thread. With 49 replies, but over 1,670 views, I am willing to bet that there are a lot more people looking at this info then are just involved in the discussion. As such, I am trying to throw out info that can apply across a broad range, not just specifically directed at the OP's perspective.

Contrary to popular belief, there are many new shooter training programs where new shooters start with a semi-auto platform, and never see a bolt rifle. Think about it, all of the Military Services learn BRM on a semi-automatic rifle. How many Military Services still start new shooters on a bolt rifle? It amazes me that thousands of new shooters learn shooting fundamentals on a semi-auto and do extremely well at it, however all of sudden here, starting out on a semi-auto is some kind of an impossible/impractical act?

I have recently watched many new Mil shooters qualify expert with an M16 in Basic, graduate from a SDM/DM course, and finally graduate from Sniper School without having ever fired a round out of a bolt rifle. Yes that is right, a very competent/capable shooter, and they have never put their hands on a bolt rifle. So why is that the norm in Military circles, but somehow that can't be the case in civilian circles?

If you want to take that further, thousands of soldiers carry a semi-auto rifle as their primary rifle, to include many Snipers, however here they are all of a sudden some kind of an unreliable liability? They malfunction, they are inaccurate, and the list of issues goes on. Funny that probably 90+% of the military rifles in service are semi-autos, and they don't seem to look at them that way?

Sorry, but IMHO, a lot of the issues that supposedly exist with a semi-auto are way overblown, are based on the mindset and technology of many years ago, and in reality are not relevant anymore.

Any shooter, new or experienced, should sit down and compile a list of Pros and Cons for anything that they are going to do. In this case, a list of Pros & Cons for a bolt rifle and a list for a semi-auto. The key, is to do the homework, and make sure that they have a list of good factual Pros & Cons, versus popular opinion Pros & Cons.

I am not going to tell every new shooter that I work with that they need to start with a semi-auto, likewise I am not going to tell every new shooter that they have to start with a bolt rifle. I am going to take the time to make sure that they know what the Pros & Cons are, and they can make their own decision based on what will actually work best for them in the short and long term.

Once again, any shooter who looks at the big picture, versus focusing on one single perspective, will ultimately do better in the long run. Just because you don't ever have an intentions of jumping into a combat zone, doesn't mean that you can't learn something from those that do. The key is not to blindly follow anything without thoroughly understanding it, and insuring that it is relevant to your specific situation.

Apologies to the OP for all of the debate and extraneous information, but hopefully if nothing else it will encourage you to look deeper, questions more, and not just go with the popular internet opinion.
 
LRShooter101 said:
In context, I am pretty sure that the OP is not the only one reading this thread. With 49 replies, but over 1,670 views, I am willing to bet that there are a lot more people looking at this info then are just involved in the discussion. As such, I am trying to throw out info that can apply across a broad range, not just specifically directed at the OP's perspective.

Contrary to popular belief, there are many new shooter training programs where new shooters start with a semi-auto platform, and never see a bolt rifle. Think about it, all of the Military Services learn BRM on a semi-automatic rifle. How many Military Services still start new shooters on a bolt rifle? It amazes me that thousands of new shooters learn shooting fundamentals on a semi-auto and do extremely well at it, however all of sudden here, starting out on a semi-auto is some kind of an impossible/impractical act?

I have recently watched many new Mil shooters qualify expert with an M16 in Basic, graduate from a SDM/DM course, and finally graduate from Sniper School without having ever fired a round out of a bolt rifle. Yes that is right, a very competent/capable shooter, and they have never put their hands on a bolt rifle. So why is that the norm in Military circles, but somehow that can't be the case in civilian circles?

If you want to take that further, thousands of soldiers carry a semi-auto rifle as their primary rifle, to include many Snipers, however here they are all of a sudden some kind of an unreliable liability? They malfunction, they are inaccurate, and the list of issues goes on. Funny that probably 90+% of the military rifles in service are semi-autos, and they don't seem to look at them that way?

Sorry, but IMHO, a lot of the issues that supposedly exist with a semi-auto are way overblown, are based on the mindset and technology of many years ago, and in reality are not relevant anymore.

Any shooter, new or experienced, should sit down and compile a list of Pros and Cons for anything that they are going to do. In this case, a list of Pros & Cons for a bolt rifle and a list for a semi-auto. The key, is to do the homework, and make sure that they have a list of good factual Pros & Cons, versus popular opinion Pros & Cons.

I am not going to tell every new shooter that I work with that they need to start with a semi-auto, likewise I am not going to tell every new shooter that they have to start with a bolt rifle. I am going to take the time to make sure that they know what the Pros & Cons are, and they can make their own decision based on what will actually work best for them in the short and long term.

Once again, any shooter who looks at the big picture, versus focusing on one single perspective, will ultimately do better in the long run. Just because you don't ever have an intentions of jumping into a combat zone, doesn't mean that you can't learn something from those that do. The key is not to blindly follow anything without thoroughly understanding it, and insuring that it is relevant to your specific situation.

Apologies to the OP for all of the debate and extraneous information, but hopefully if nothing else it will encourage you to look deeper, questions more, and not just go with the popular internet opinion.
Click to expand...

Whole lotta good stuff in here from where I sit...
 
MoBoost said:
Brass recovery and brass life - YMMV.
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^^^

I'm not a commando so I'm not worried about pelting humans quickly.
In matches I have had more malfunctions with a semi.
Bolt back mag out sucks on all but JP side chargers with the extended bolt catch's.
When I'm out shooting with my friends they don't get pelted with my brass.
Semi's are typically heavier.

A couple things about my LMT that I do like are the position of the safety and 25 round PMags.

If I were going to have only it would be a bolt.
 
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i have both, but in general, bolt because, i dont like chasing and or losing my brass, i dont like having to FL size my brass all the time, that also leads to trimming all the time and then cracking all the time. and the bolt is WAY more quiet with a suppressor..
 
Because bolt guns still a lot of fun. And for extended ranges you've got to have something more than 7.62x51.
 
I choose bolt because I can't own a semi without being a farmer or professional culler... :(
 
Well I guess bolt rifles are not worth anything anymore. If you could please gather up all your high end bolt rifles and S&B optics that aren't worth anything and send me pics and prices. I will buy them but the prices must be very low because they are no longer the ticket.

Example price:

AXMC- Was 7700.00 Now 2500.00

S&B 5-25- Was 4000.00 Now 1000.00
 
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LRShooter101 said:
To address some of the lovely "Urban Legends" here:

Accuracy:
First thing, contrary to popular belief, there are now a number of semi-autos that will hang with a similar style/quality bolt rifle. The LE Sniper Qual Target below was shot with a JP LRP-07.

We now have just short of a years worth of LE Sniper Quals on these rifles, that are all on par with the shooters who are running bolt rifles.
Click to expand...

That looks like a great target to record Cold Bore and a subsequent group. Do you mind sharing the size of the Squares an Circles of those targets?
 
I have some fantastically accurate and reliable semi auto rifles and many of the PRS type matches I have shot have allowed for follow up shots (advantage to the semi) and bolt actions must be opened while moving and the semis only have to engage their safety and call Safe (advantage semi). But when you throw 1,200 yard shots into the mix, I would rather be behind my bolt rifle. This is where a 1/2 MOA gun vs a 1 MOA gun can mean the difference between a hit or miss. If the comps that I attend were 600 yards and in, I would probably go for the semi auto.

I have yet to have my bolt gun fail to feed or extract during a competition. I wish I could say that for my semi auto experience during competition.

As I stated earlier, I like to shoot suppressed and my bolt rifle is noticeably quieter suppressed than my semi auto rifles.

There are advantages/disadvantages to both weapon systems. It really depends on the scenario and the shooter that will dictate which rifle system is the best to deploy.

I can see how the semi auto .308 would be at a distinct advantage in an urban sniper role as semi autos have a huge advantage in followup shots, quickly engaging multiple targets. Semi Auto rifles can be more efficiently utilized when moving in and out of a hide compared to a bolt gun.

In extended long range shooting, I give the advantage to the bolt guns, not just because they are generally slightly more accurate, but because you can utilize calibers (think 6.5 SAUM, 7 WSM, 30/378, 338 Lapua, 375 CT, etc.) that just can't be shot out of a semi auto with sub 1/2 MOA accuracy.
 
valkyries said:
I think of it like a revolver vs. a semi auto pistol. Do the semi auto pistols have advantages? You bet they do. That's why I own them. But the revolver has some advantages too. Revolvers always go bang, no jams, misfeeds, stove pipes, ect. Same principal with a bolt gun. They just work, its almost 100% reliable, add on all the great points listed above and for me the choice is easy.
Click to expand...

Uh, revolvers DO jam, not often. But when they do, you need a gunsmith to unjam them.
 
Dark Angel said:
For a sniper, you would think turn-bolt and 99% of the time you might be right. They are more reliable (less moving parts) as someone pointed out. But, say, you have just sanctioned your target,
your staying concealed because someone is glassing for you. You move, you're probably dead. Bad guy looking for you, you've just fired and need to reload, bad guy sees the movement from, say,
even 800 meters, you're dead. Auto loader, same deal, you've just fired, reload is automatic, no extra movements to give you away, you're ready to fire again, just in case they start beating the bush for you. Don't get me wrong, I love my turn-bolts, but I've used auto loaders with equal effectiveness and felt better concealed. It comes down to what you're most effective with,and,or, what
your unit, department decides is best for the job.
Click to expand...

Of course, the bad guy will NEVER see that piece of shiny brass flying through the air from the semi-auto. :)
 
When I flew fighters, we said that we did the things we disd becasue:

1) Looks good

2) Great fun

3) Chicks dig it

Bolt gun. :)
 
Pinecone said:
Of course, the bad guy will NEVER see that piece of shiny brass flying through the air from the semi-auto. :)
Click to expand...

a simple little cloth dropped over the ejection port solves that.

When i run my bolt gun, the brass still flies away from the rifle. I'm pretty sure my bolt gun has an ejector, too.
 
desert dog said:
Is it worth it for a noob to buy a 1/2 MOA semi when he can get a bolt gun that does the same at less than a 3rd of the cost?
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I estimate the cost of a 1/2 MOA gasser at round about $3k, for the gun only.

Which 1/2 MOA bolt gun costs less than $1k and has the same build quality and durability as a $3k gasser? Would you take that gun, unchanged from factory condition, into a competition?
 
Pros & Cons, some examples:

Calibers - Pro to the bolt rifle for being able to handle more calibers.
However, contrary to some popular beliefs, semi-autos are not limited to .223 or .308, though some people are still living with that mindset. There are actually very few rounds that you can't have a semi-auto built in. Between Remington/DPMS you can get a .22, .223, .204, .243, .260/6.5, 6.8, 7mm-08, .308, .300 Blk, .338 Fed caliber rifles off of the shelf. Go to a custom builder, and pretty much as long as it will run on a short action, you can have it built.

New rifles are also coming out, that could be game changers in this category, because they will now allow rounds built off of a long action, such as: The Guns | NEMO Arms
With more true new R&D like this, versus simply trying to take an existing an AR and cobble it up, there could be some serious new advances with the semi-auto platforms.

Make no mistake, there are calibers where your go to rifle will absolutely be a bolt rifle. However times are a changing, and I am sure that you are going to see more semi-autos built in every caliber, to include larger calibers.


Range - Pros to the bolt rifle for being able to launch the big rounds
However a point that seems to get lost here, not everyone is going to be shooting past 600-800 yards, and if that is the case, then there is no real benefit to them running a larger caliber round in a bolt rifle. You can easily run a semi-auto out to those distances with a round and performance level that is on par with a bolt rifle. Plenty of shooters who clean the 600 yard Short Course at Thunder Valley with a semi-auto, and they can do it in less time than the shooters running a bolt rifle.


Reloading - Pros to the bolt rifle for a number of reason
Wear & Tear on Brass, no question that a semi-auto can wear out the brass quicker. However couple of points that seem to get lost:
- New Shooters, many of them don't reload, and many of them have more money than time, so this argument has no significance to them because they are shooting factory ammo and pitching the brass.
- "Over Gasing", is a huge reason that semi-autos beat the crap out of brass. Fortunately builders have figured that out and many gas systems are now built/tuned much better resulting in very little if any damage to the brass.

Neck Sizing, it is a given that you should Full Length Size your brass out of semi-auto, where you may be able to just Neck Size your brass out of a bolt rifle for a couple of firings. Yet if you check with a number of shooters who hold World Records, they will tell you that they Full Length Size their brass every time because it is the only way to guarantee the highest levels of consistency when reloading. So there is an argument for brass life with Neck Sizing, but there is also an argument for accuracy with Full Length Sizing.

My point to the examples above, is that each shooter needs to really dig deep and look at what all the facts are for any Pro or Con, and then determine what really matters to them?

I have sat back for many years watching the "Bolt vs Semi" argument, and I have heard many people say that a semi-auto could never equal or replace a bolt rifle. Hate to tell them, but it is happening on a daily basis all over the LE & Mil Sniper communities, and all over many of the competitive shooting disciplines. It is happening because:
- The technology is advancing and improving, semi-autos can now hang with bolt rifles
- New shooters have started to challenge status quo, and are looking at actual results, not just urban myths

Final "sanity check" for some folks, I am currently running:
Bolt - .22, .223, .260, .284, .308, .300 Blk, .300 NM
Semi - .22, .223, .260, .308, .300 Blk
Yes, I actually have more bolt rifles than semi-autos, and yes there is a time and place for each one of them. No I will not become a single rifle owner/shooter anytime soon!
 
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I will pick bolt over semi because
1 price/accuracy. I can get a tikka t3 under $800 that give me sub moa. Can you get a semi under $800 close to 1moa?
2 bolt has longer barrel tobimpress the lady.
3 bolt has a knob to play with in case no lady around.
2&3 a side. It is stick shift vs auto trans argument.
 
silentheart said:
I will pick bolt over semi because
1 price/accuracy. I can get a tikka t3 under $800 that give me sub moa. Can you get a semi under $800 close to 1moa?
Click to expand...

Yes.

And it depends on your definition of 'close'. :D
 
RMW said:
That looks like a great target to record Cold Bore and a subsequent group. Do you mind sharing the size of the Squares an Circles of those targets?
Click to expand...

Per the top of the target, we stole it from ATF.

The squares are 1" (horizontal/vertical), and the circle is 2".

If you need it, or any other LE Sniper Qual targets, just drop me an email or PM and I will be glad to send you what we have.

*EDIT - updated the original post with a pic showing the group size which was 1.1", which is not bad in my book for a 9 shot group, and not bad considering that was the second qual course shot with that rifle. I am going to try and get some more of the targets, a number of the more recent ones the shots have pretty much removed the back from the center.
 
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Ive been working as an RO for a major match here in NC for the last 2 years or so and seen every type of high end gun come through the match. Every shooter running a semi has at least one malfunction of some type at every match. 99% of the time its a simple magazine related issue that can be solved quickly with tap/rack/bang but the malfunctions that aren't simple are usually completely debilitating and the shooter has to use his partners gun or drop out. This is not to say that bolt guns don't have malfunctions. Ive seen numerous bolt handles ripped off, bolts bind up and stop moving, bottom metal latches break and render the gun a single shot, etc... But its usually one or two guns per match, not every single gun. And the faster argument is questionable at best. The match is scored on fastest time with least hits and I cant remember a single match where a semi has won. I do remember a match where the two guys who won were running top loaders though.
 
"Reasons for you taking bolt-action over semi-auto?"

I actually took both. Have three of each. When I go shooting I take one of each. Also have one of each and a nice large pistol with me when I go traveling. All bases covered.
 
They both have their place. Some peoples reason might be where they live or hunting laws. Me, I see the place for both of them and think that's all there is to it. I am 99% bolt gun but I have a few auto stashed around.
 
LRShooter101 said:
Contrary to popular belief, there are many new shooter training programs where new shooters start with a semi-auto platform, and never see a bolt rifle. Think about it, all of the Military Services learn BRM on a semi-automatic rifle. How many Military Services still start new shooters on a bolt rifle? It amazes me that thousands of new shooters learn shooting fundamentals on a semi-auto and do extremely well at it, however all of sudden here, starting out on a semi-auto is some kind of an impossible/impractical act?

I have recently watched many new Mil shooters qualify expert with an M16 in Basic, graduate from a SDM/DM course, and finally graduate from Sniper School without having ever fired a round out of a bolt rifle. Yes that is right, a very competent/capable shooter, and they have never put their hands on a bolt rifle. So why is that the norm in Military circles, but somehow that can't be the case in civilian circles?

If you want to take that further, thousands of soldiers carry a semi-auto rifle as their primary rifle, to include many Snipers, however here they are all of a sudden some kind of an unreliable liability? They malfunction, they are inaccurate, and the list of issues goes on. Funny that probably 90+% of the military rifles in service are semi-autos, and they don't seem to look at them that way?
Click to expand...

I think this "choice" of rifle is actually evidence of the top-down, hierarchical decision making which is a signature characteristic of the military. In most cases the guys, probably including the guys shooting the .mil and LEO sniper courses in the pictures posted, haven't chosen their rifle type; it was chosen for them and issued to them. If one looks instead at the individual choices made by most competitors in civilian matches, they have individually made an entirely different choice from the one you advocate. They must have reasons, and their reasons are no less valid than the ones you cite in making your case for semis. For myself, these reasons include (but are not limited to):

1. Greater accuracy for less cost. A LOT less cost.
2. Brass life.
3. Reloading choices. Semis are limited by port pressure, cannot be too high or too low. This is not an issue for .mil and LEO, where factory ammo is used exclusively. That factory ammo itself is a great limitation to the accuracy and effective range of the rifle. It must be made to a standard, and that standard is less than ideal for all of the rifles in which it is used. Another factor is neck tension: match accuracy is obtained by carefully controlling (and limiting) neck tension on the loaded round. Light neck tension and semi autos do not go together. Do they? The semi auto bolt cycle is very violent, not so with the bolt gun. For .mil and LEO snipers who compete and "may" load their own ammo, yes there are adjustable gas systems available, but using them effectively is not something for beginners, is it? None of these problems exist with bolt guns.
4. Easier maintenance. MUCH easier maintenance. I hate cleaning my AR. Bolt gun, easy. This leaves me more time for obsessing about the ammo.
5. Greater availability of match grade aftermarket parts.
6. A course of fire which doesn't emphasize speed.
 
Well I shot a BA in .308 for several years and could take it out to a thousand yards (and beyond) on steel silhouettes. After I started shooting precision matches I decided I want to try out the Semi-Auto platform - now I have a JP LRP-07 on order in 6.5 CM and am patiently waiting out the 8-12 weeks....
 
P.S. I think a gas gun could have a sizable advantage for multiple targets under 1000 yards. I guess we'll see. If not, I'll be selling it and try something else.
 
I am 99% bolt gun guy!

But ...

If you think bolt guns are more reliable - you are WRONG! (most bolt guns don't see the round count in a year what a semi goes through in one range trip).

If you think bolt guns are cheaper - you are WRONG! (Have you checked prices on ARs lately?)

If you think bolt guns are more accurate - maybe, but how often do you see semi built specifically for precision?
Check this out, there are not that many semi entries - but look at how they are spaced: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ound4-**-100yard-6group-30round-shootout.html

Brass recovery and life though ... my deal breaker.
 
As discussed, I don't think you can make a blanket statement that covers the bolt vs. semi. Some semi's work great, others not so great, same story with bolt guns. If you take cost into consideration it usually (not always) costs a great deal more to get a semi up to par with a bolt gun in terms of accuracy, so that might make a difference to the end user. Any mechanical device will always have the opportunity to jam, malfunction, etc. but with the greater number of key moving parts on a semi, they are typically (not always) more prone to failure of some kind. At the SHC there was a small contingent of semi's and on my one stage alone the vast majority of semi's experienced some kind of mechanical hiccup (fail to feed/bolt override, fail to lock up, stovepiping, etc.). When they do malfunction they typically (not always) take a greater amount of time to correct the deficiency as well.

The semi vs. bolt question was eating at me for a long time so a few years ago I decided to devote time and money to an AR-10 project and find out for myself. Long story short, I could never get past the increased number of malfunctions, and the poor ergonomics (low prone is difficult with the various pistol grips and magazines, hard to get scope low enough to not need a cheek riser, cheek riser interfering with charging handle, difficulty reloading from prone, difficulty clearing malfunctions prone, finicky with reloads, increased blowback with suppressor etc.) that I ended up selling the rifle earlier this summer. The primary advantage of being able to fire a successive shot within 1-second versus 2 or 3-seconds with a bolt gun was not enough for me to justify the other drawbacks.

As always, YMMV....
 
With my Bushmaster AR Varmint gas gun I tend to be less patient with the shots, thus equals shooting more rounds with less overall accuracy.

With my Rem 700 .308 bolt it's more time consuming single loading rounds so the shot counts are lower (than my AR), more patient , more accuracy, and ultimately costs about the same to shoot .308 (as compared to my .223 semi) . Reguardless of type, I love them both, just depends on what type of shooting mood I am in...
 
MoBoost said:
I am 99% bolt gun guy!

But ...

If you think bolt guns are more reliable - you are WRONG! (most bolt guns don't see the round count in a year what a semi goes through in one range trip).

If you think bolt guns are cheaper - you are WRONG! (Have you checked prices on ARs lately?)

If you think bolt guns are more accurate - maybe, but how often do you see semi built specifically for precision?
Check this out, there are not that many semi entries - but look at how they are spaced: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ound4-**-100yard-6group-30round-shootout.html

Brass recovery and life though ... my deal breaker.
Click to expand...

Based on the number of primers I buy, I shoot about 2500 rounds per year through my .30 cal bolt guns, mostly one in particular. How many do you shoot during one range trip through your ARs?

Half-MOA bolt guns capable of long range are cheaper than half-MOA gas guns with the same capability. Care to argue the point?

Semi's built for precision...are the expensive ones. If this were not the case, I would see semi's on the line at an F Class long range match, or even mid range. You know what? I NEVER DO.
 
SWRichmond said:
Based on the number of primers I buy, I shoot about 2500 rounds per year through my .30 cal bolt guns, mostly one in particular. How many do you shoot during one range trip through your ARs?
Click to expand...

I don't shoot ARs very much, but in "tactical carbine" you go through 500rds a day or so ....

Half-MOA bolt guns capable of long range are cheaper than half-MOA gas guns with the same capability. Care to argue the point?
Click to expand...
On AR platform bolt locks into the barrel (extension) - that's all the blue-printing and gunsmithing you'll ever need. Everything else is just belts and whistles that don't affect your accuracy. Seriously, you can buy AR-15 "chassis" for whooping $49.99 (aka lower receiver).

Semi's built for precision...are the expensive ones. If this were not the case, I would see semi's on the line at an F Class long range match, or even mid range. You know what? I NEVER DO.
Click to expand...

Here in OK I see semis in F-Class every month (not counting service rifle, otherwise semi numbers would dominate). One of the July mid-range FTR matches was won with over-the-counter RRA AR10. I've got 2nd and 3rd shooting my Service rifle (CBI barrel) with a scope and bipod as well. Then again - it's 20 rounds in 20 minutes - you can shoot a freaking muzzle-loader in F-Class....
 
SWRichmond said:
I think this "choice" of rifle is actually evidence of the top-down, hierarchical decision making which is a signature characteristic of the military. In most cases the guys, probably including the guys shooting the .mil and LEO sniper courses in the pictures posted, haven't chosen their rifle type; it was chosen for them and issued to them. If one looks instead at the individual choices made by most competitors in civilian matches, they have individually made an entirely different choice from the one you advocate. They must have reasons, and their reasons are no less valid than the ones you cite in making your case for semis. For myself, these reasons include (but are not limited to):
. . . . snip . . . .
Click to expand...

Actually most LE Snipers that I know who are running a semi-auto, have them only after lengthy battles with their command staff. The Civilian LE Snipers in the picture that I posted, did just that, and actually one of them paid for his rifle out of his own pocket.

Why, because we live in an ever changing world where events like Beslan, Mumbai, and Kenya are taking place, along with things like ISIS calling for attacks on main street USA. You also have things like the North Hollywood Bank Robbery, where you are facing suspects with armor and heavy caliber select fire weapons. One of our tactical teams in the state recently shot it out with a barricaded individual who was wearing armor and using select fire weapons. Reality may well be, running around with 3-5 rounds in a Rem 700 means that you are significantly under gunned. The motto of "One Shot, One Kill" has lost some of its significance for both LE & Mil Snipers in a number of situations.

In terms of the list:
1. Cost, yes a quality semi-auto will run you more, but guess what, not everyone cares! Costing "a lot more" is also relative, I have 2 DMPS ARs that will hold 1 MOA, and I have about $1,500 in each of them. That may be double what some bolt rifles cost, but those rifles also have advantages that the bolt rifles don't.
2. Brass Life, once again, not everyone cares, I watch shooters everyday leaving every piece of brass that they fire laying on the line.
3. Reloading, plenty of shooters grabbing ammo off the shelf and doing just fine with it. The target I posted earlier was shot with Factory Federal GMM, and that was a 1.1 MOA 9 Shot group. No need to go through some lengthy, labor intensive, expensive hand loading process, for those results! Not everyone is looking for ammo that meets Benchrest standards. If it will produce a 1 MOA group, and there is plenty that will, then many shooters are more than happy with that. I do handload for some of my semi-autos, and I don't have any issues getting a consistent 0.75-1.0 MOA group out of them.
4. Maintenance, very little known fact that most semi-auto rifles are way over cleaned. There are plenty of 3-Gun shooters who run their semi-autos for hundreds or thousands of rounds before cleaning. Yes, you will have to clean the barrel before accuracy degrades, but cleaning a barrel is cleaning a barrel, it doesn't take anymore or less if it is a bolt or semi. Also a little know fact, but most precision rifle shooters way over clean their rifles! I just shot the F-Class Nationals at Camp Perry, with 300+ rounds down the barrel with no cleaning, and I never lost any degree of accuracy. If you have a problem with the carbon fouling in the Receiver and BCG of a semi-auto, you can always go with a Piston Op System.
5. Parts, sorry, but you can upgrade an AR Platform as much and as you want to these days.
6. Course of Fire, per above, their is a time and place for everything. Closer ranges, high rates of fire, larger targets, and time limits, all scream run a semi-auto. Obviously, farther ranges, low rates of fire, MOA or smaller targets, and no time limits, all scream bolt rifle. There is a reason that I own over 10 rifles, and a logical/rational reason why I will pick one of them for a given application or course of fire.

I am not trying to force a semi-auto on anyone. I am trying to play devils advocate, I am trying to get people to question what is being posted here, and I am trying to get shooters to make a logical/rational decision for what will actually work best for them, versus rolling right along with the crowd.

There are probably shooters reading this, who will never step into the conversation for fear of being ridiculed or looked on as being ignorant, who are looking for more than "bolt rifles are sexy" or "bolt rifles make me tingly". Hopefully some part of my Doctoral Dissertation on this subject will help them out.
 
When Accuracy International makes a semi, and it shoots as well as their bolts, I will buy one. (probably a couple -have to have a backup plan)
 
I spent quite a bit of time and money trying to get a large frame semi-auto tuned out to be super-accurate. I gave up on it.

You've got to deal with a gas system that will limit your powder choices and likely your velocity range. It'll probably cause less consistent MV, too.
You might have issues with the first and/or last round in a magazine.
You have to seat to magazine length, and you have to play with neck tension/crimping to keep inertia from taking over
You're dealing with greater tolerances and way more moving parts, slower lock time, less rigid construction etc.
You'll almost never get the same accuracy as a bolt gun with equal quality parts.

So for beyond 400-500yd, I prefer a bolt gun. My 700 build gets 1/2 MOA vertical dispersion out to 1200yd-- not cherry picking good groups, consistently. My semi-autos were biting at the heels of 1 MOA at long range.

Now, admittedly, within 500, my little 6.5 Grendel AR 15 is a blast to knock steel with, and makes a lot more sense in terms of multiple target engagement at realistic ranges, be it coyotes/hogs or in miliary use. If I want to push the range, though, I go to the bolt gun and kick the tolerance stacking frustration of trying to wring extreme accuracy out of a semi.
 
for me it comes down to im not killing anything with an AR platform. so what is the point of owning a really expensive toy when i can own a really expensive tool. not to mention you would look like a jackass carrying a big semiauto 'call of duty' rifle in the woods.
 
parkervbar88 said:
for me it comes down to im not killing anything with an AR platform. so what is the point of owning a really expensive toy when i can own a really expensive tool. not to mention you would look like a jackass carrying a big semiauto 'call of duty' rifle in the woods.
Click to expand...

I use a bow to kill big things, AR-15 to kill little things ... and I use 50BMG in "Call of Duty" ...

I'd feel a lot more like a jackass taking unnecessary long shots on game animal because I got a "sniper rifle".

I guess I don't agree with your post at all.
 
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i came back to revise it. i understand using an ar platform for coyotes and hog control. i dont play call of duty myself. but for things i actually hunt, i have no use for one. thats why i sold mine for a bolt rifle.
 
Fact #1 we are not in combat, so all "what the operators use/with pictures of said, using semis" does not mean shit.
Fact #2 the most accurate guns in the world are bolts...bench rest.
Fact #3 most of us here have bolts and gassers...30k+ in guns and scopes (myself included). We can use what we want.
We don't hate gassers, but they are good at something's and bolts are good at others.

To rant that semis are the only way and are just as accurate as a bolt gun is ridiculous.
 
I appreciate LRshooter101's comments and playing the Devil's advocate when it comes to semi's.

Everyone really needs to evaluate their situation to determine whether a Semi or Bolt is the right rifle to employ. I am glad I have both.

Semi's have their roles and as their technology has improved we have seen more and more accurate semi autos replacing bolt guns on the battle field and in designated marksman / sniper arsenals. I have also seen more and more semi autos being used buy hunters to take North American big game.

For an LE, Military, or when the world goes to crap role (i.e. Ferguson, Hurricane Katrina, Rodney King Riots, etc.) semi's are king in an urban environment. If you were stuck in Ferguson with your family right now would you be grabbing your LR bolt gun or your semi auto to keep your family out of harms way? OK, maybe your grab both, but if you are to keep a mob away from your position in an urban environment, what is your honest choice?

Likewise, if you are going after a trophy animal or need to whack tangos at 1,200 yards or more, are you grabbing your semi auto (SR25, JP LRP-07, Nemo, etc.) or are you shouldering your tried and true bolt gun shooting a magnum caliber that is a sub 1/2 MOA rifle (AI AXMC, DTA SRS, Surgeon .338, GAP in 7 SAUM, etc.)?

Nemo Firearms had my attention, until they decided to sell a dumbed down version of their .300 WM to the public (1/2 MOA for LE/Mil and 1 MOA for the public), I want our officers to have the best equipment for when lives are on the line, however i personally believe that Civilians should be able to own anything our police units have at their disposal (but that is a whole different discussion).

I look forward to seeing more developments in Semi Auto rifles. If they could hang with Benchrest guns one day that would be awesome. If they could shoot .338 LM sub half MOA in the same size/weight rifle as say an Ai AX or DTA SRS I would be thrilled.

There have been some great innovations in both types of rifles over the past few years. I hope to continue to see gun manufacturers pushing the limits and bringing us new firearms that can serve well in multiple roles. I currently love the Modularity of the AR type rifles and the current offerings from AI and DTA. After owning and regularly shooting a DTA SRS, I am stocked for their new semi auto bullpup platform.

We live in a great time of firearm development and innovation. I encourage everyone to get out an enjoy accurate bolt and semi auto rifles if you can.
 
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finbox said:
Fact #3 most of us here have bolts and gassers.... We can use what we want.
We don't hate gassers, but they are good at something's and bolts are good at others.

To rant that semis are the only way and are just as accurate as a bolt gun is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Yeap.

I have bolt and semi auto in .22LR and .308 and .30-06. I have semi auto only in .223 (at least for now). They each have their place.

They are ALL TOOLS. Use the right tool for the job.

The average LE sniper shot is what, something like 60 - 70 yards? And are the mil snipers making the shots at 3000 yards using a semi auto?
 
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