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Rebarrel: Short and Handy, 16" or 18"?

Bakwa

Prophetic Marksman
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Minuteman
  • Mar 22, 2017
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    Warning: Asking a subjective question. If this offends you then don't respond.

    I'm looking to rebarrel my general purpose Tikka CTR with a slightly shorter barrel to make it a little more handy, but I'm concerned about the perceived muzzle blast being too obnoxious.
    I'm planning on either doing 16" or 18" in 308Win, or 18" in 6.5CM, and I'll likely keep the CTR profile. I want to attempt to balance performance, handiness [with and without a 7" can], and at the same time not sound like I'm firing a cannon every time I pull the trigger.

    For those that have experience shooting 16" and 18" 308's, and/or 18" 6.5's, how would you compare them to each other and "normal" length barrels?
     
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    .308’s are dumb. Do a 16” 6.5. Love mine.
    I've thought about that, but wouldn't all that unburnt powder make a rather obnoxious fireball right at the muzzle?
    I'm looking at 308 because it doesn't seem to loose quite as much performance at 16" as 6.5. That, and I'm sitting on a lot of 308 ammo and I don't own any 308's at the moment.
     
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    I'm not a fan of a .308 shorter than 20".

    Shorter than that, it's fireballs galore, lots of noise, and low velocities for a round that needs velocity to perform adequately at distance.
     
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    I'm planning the same thing. I'm probably going to go 18" for velocities sake, but my ruger scout has a 16" barrel, and with the muzzle brake on it I don't notice any fireball. Sure it's loud, but I chalk that up to the muzzle brake. Either way, 16" or even 18" shouldn't be too obnoxious.
     
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    I'm planning the same thing. I'm probably going to go 18" for velocities sake, but my ruger scout has a 16" barrel, and with the muzzle brake on it I don't notice any fireball. Sure it's loud, but I chalk that up to the muzzle brake. Either way, 16" or even 18" shouldn't be too obnoxious.
    Have you tried recording video of yourself while shooting? I had a BCM comp on my AR, and switched back to the lowly A2 birdcage. I had my buddy take video me at a 3 gun match showing lots of muzzle flash, that I didn’t really notice from behind the gun.
     
    Have you tried recording video of yourself while shooting? I had a BCM comp on my AR, and switched back to the lowly A2 birdcage. I had my buddy take video me at a 3 gun match showing lots of muzzle flash, that I didn’t really notice from behind the gun.
    I haven't. You're probably right, especially if I'm not focusing on the muzzle.

    OP, whats good enough for me, might not be good enough for you, but what I don't notice has never bothered me. Hell, my 24" 6.5 with a cadex mx1 muzzle brake is obnoxiously loud and has one hell of a muzzle blast, and I still don't care, so take what I say with a grain of salt lol
     
    OP, whats good enough for me, might not be good enough for you, but what I don't notice has never bothered me. Hell, my 24" 6.5 with a cadex mx1 muzzle brake is obnoxiously loud and has one hell of a muzzle blast, and I still don't care, so take what I say with a grain of salt lol
    Fair. I guess I'm thinking more from the perspective of when I hunt with it, and when I'm at the range without a can [the people shooting next to me].
     
    Fair. I guess I'm thinking more from the perspective of when I hunt with it, and when I'm at the range without a can [the people shooting next to me].

    Without ear pro, can/no can are still gonna cause hearing damage. Doesn't make a material difference really between 16 and 18" and hearing loss. I doubt you could measure or tell the difference between muzzle blast of a 16" and 18" if you watched it and didn't know what you were looking at.

    IMO, it comes down to ballistics that satisfy you whether it is 308 or 6.5, unless you are on the "308 ammo is everywhere in case SHTF" bus. Ballistics puts the 6.5 above the 308, especially when velocities start dropping, especially at long range.

    If 16" is easier to run around with a can on all the time, then go 16".

    I went through this with my "short" barrel build coming up. It comes down to ballistic performance for me and it looks like I can cut it down to 20" and be happy. If 20" is higher than my target velocity, I will have it cut down shorter.
     
    I’d do a 6.5 creedmoor in 18”. Beyond 500, it will eat the 308’s lunch all day.
     
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    I’m running a .308 gas gun at 16” with an A2 on the muzzle, have yet to see a fireball or be bothered with the blast, but I’m busy looking at the target for impacts.
     
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    I’m getting my 20” CTR cut down to 17.5” this week as I couldn’t decide between 17” or 18”. Excited to get it back.

    once this barrel is shot out, I’ll know what length I’d prefer and get a carbon fiber prefit.
     
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    Why would you shoot it without a can?
    If I'm carrying it through the woods. If I'm maneuvering it in a tight space like a hunting blind. If I'm carrying it long distance through the mountains, and have to take a shot without time to throw the can on. I'm sure there's other practical scenarios I can't think of right now, but you get the idea. This won't just be a bench rest range toy.
     
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    If I'm carrying it through the woods. If I'm maneuvering it in a tight space like a hunting blind. If I'm carrying it long distance through the mountains, and have to take a shot without time to throw the can on. I'm sure there's other practical scenarios I can't think of right now, but you get the idea. This won't just be a bench rest range toy.
    I was just curious. For me going short allows for full time can use. I’ll never shoot mine without it. My rifle folds, so it’s carried very short regardless of what‘a on the muzzle.
     
    I was just curious. For me going short allows for full time can use. I’ll never shoot mine without it. My rifle folds, so it’s carried very short regardless of what‘a on the muzzle.
    For sure. This rifle will likely wear my TBAC Ultra 90% of the time after I make it short.
     
    Warning: Asking a subjective question. If this offends you then don't respond.

    I'm looking to rebarrel my general purpose Tikka CTR with a slightly shorter barrel to make it a little more handy, but I'm concerned about the perceived muzzle blast being too obnoxious.
    I'm planning on either doing 16" or 18" in 308Win, or 18" in 6.5CM, and I'll likely keep the CTR profile. I want to attempt to balance performance, handiness [with and without a 7" can], and at the same time not sound like I'm firing a cannon every time I pull the trigger.

    For those that have experience shooting 16" and 18" 308's, and/or 18" 6.5's, how would you compare them to each other and "normal" length barrels?
    If you’re sitting on a lot of 308 ammo, to me it makes sense to run with 308. If you hate it by the time you’ve shot through it all give the 6.5 a try. My previous experience with 308 was through a 16” AR. It wasn’t a 1000 yard gun nor did I want it to be. It did well enough that I parted that out for an 18.5” bolt gun also in 308. With a W3 folder it’s one I smile at everyday. It may be ballistically handicapped but so what.

    Definitely consider what you expect the rifle to do.
     
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    At either barrel length, Using similar weight bullets (the only real overlap is in the 150 grain range) the .308 will provide better muzzle velocity however; (and this is a big one) within about 200-300 yards the creedmoor is moving faster, will drop less and retains better energy down range for smacking steel or soft gushy animal materials.look up MV numbers from similar builds, pick a 6.5 and a.308 bullet of roughly the same weight and type, run the numbers for both in a ballistics calculator, and plot the drop, velocity and energy out to 1200 yards, the difference is shocking. I have been looking at this comparing 6.5 cm, 7-08, and .308 in 16, 18, and 20” barrel lengths, so far the sweet spot seems to be the 7-08 with 150-175 grain pills. All of these cartridges dip below reliable expansion velocity around 400-500 yards and drop below the mystical 1000ft-lb energy “requirement” that gun writers always prattle off with no real understanding in that same distance. The 1000 ft-lb number is probably arbitrary but the expansion velocity is not, you need big wound channels and hydrostatic shock to vitals to anchor animals. It seems that adding or cutting 2” of barrel will change MV enough to extend or shorten that “ethical”range by 75 yards or so in rough general terms.

    Sure you can increase the downrange performance of the .308 with 180 grain bullet but the trade off is in increased recoil. Sure the .308 makes more efficient use of the available powder charge but the downrange advantage goes to the 6.5 and 7 mm bullets, and don’t get me wrong, I love a .308 or .30-06 and wouldn’t consider either obsolete, but the math doesn’t support it being the king when you factor in Recoil in a lightweight rifle or long range performance with a shorter barrel. in my eyes,recoil doesn’t matter all that much so I wouldn’t totally rule out an 18” .308, it’s still probably overkill for hunting out to 300 yards or so, and the reloading and factory options for it are staggering to meet special criteria, but I already have a 20”.308 so I can’t justify the expense of a slightly shorter version of it while still I’m kid-poor. If you have a long 6.5 already, this might be a nice addition to it for field use.

    for me and my uses, running the numbers of several different bullets in several different barrel lengths shows an Optimal configuration of a 7-08 (maybe AI) running 150-162 gr. bullets from an 18” barrel. The 7 mm gives the option of considerably heavier bullets with great sectional density in case I need to hunt a bear and still gives mild recoil with ~150 gr. Bullets that nips at the heels of the 6.5 bullets at longer ranges. Add into that the longer barrel life that everybody worries so much about and the 18” 7mm is a nice middle ground thats still pretty short with a suppressor. I live in the south, shots rarely exceed 400 yards, if you live in a place with more sky and less trees, your solution may be different, but this seems to be a winner for a practical rifle that can do almost all of my hunting desires where I live and still play the target game for fun. I’m looking for a used Tikka locally to make this a reality. Just be honest with yourself about what you want the rifle to do and be analytical about what you need to meet those goals and that can guide You to a solution.
     
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    Not 6.5 Creed or .308 but if it helps-I have both a 22" and 16.5" 6mm Creedmoor and can't really tell the difference without suppressor even under a tin roof at the range, with ear-pro. I have only had anyone comment when using a brake. Just FYI, I lose 150fps across the board with similar loads between the two lengths. When I started thinking about my shorty I got a few "you'll have a two foot flame out of the end of that thing" comments. By the time whatever I'm shooting at sees the flash it's too late. My shorty with a Silencerco Harvester 9" suppressor is very convenient and out-the -window predator rifle and has inspired several of my friends to build shorter rifles.
     
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    I went with a 17” 6.5CM. Shoot it suppressed 100% of the time. Very satisfied.
     
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    If you have a long 6.5 already, this might be a nice addition to it for field use.
    This is one of the reasons I'm thinking 308. My 22" 6.5CM can cover a lot of roles. But a handy field gun it is not.
    I'm almost leaning towards 308 just because of the ability to throw 180gr pills and hit animals hard under 300m.

    I intend to use this as a range gun as well, but I'll likely only use it for 500m and in regardless of the caliber I chose. Anything further away, the 22" 6.5 would be my go-to.
     
    This is one of the reasons I'm thinking 308. My 22" 6.5CM can cover a lot of roles. But a handy field gun it is not.
    I'm almost leaning towards 308 just because of the ability to throw 180gr pills and hit animals hard under 300m.

    I intend to use this as a range gun as well, but I'll likely only use it for 500m and in regardless of the caliber I chose. Anything further away, the 22" 6.5 would be my go-to.

    A .308 will perform really well in that role, it’s not Super fast or fancy and lots of people hate on them because the trajectory makes you work a bit, won’t matter much at those ranges and a LRF can pretty well fix that issue and let you reach much past that 500 m limit at the range. there is almost 70 years of data on how to load interesting rounds for it from resized .32” lead balls at rim-fire velocity to .208 grain high BC long range stuff, if you get a 1-8 twist barrel with a long throat, it would be great for 180 grains up to 240 for supersonic and subsonic work, so you get good subsonic performance to match .300 blk that with a quick mag change can be ready for a solid hit at 5-900 yards, even a standard 10 twist will do pretty well. I love my 20”.308 I just want something lighter and I’ve been really impressed with the 7 mms ability to bridge the gap between 6.5 cm and .308, for me I didn’t like the way the numbers looked on any of the 16” barrels I looked at, just about borderline for everything, I’d hate to spend $800-$1200 on a rifle and the wish I had a little more velocity, you can always cut it down again later if it’s a bit too long, my vote would be for an 18” barrel.
     
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    8B17B7E8-84F0-4646-9AED-E628963A3938.jpeg
    16 inch 6.5cm for the win...
     
    If you’ve got the 22” Creed covered already, 18” 308 all day especially here where it can be so thick with all them wait-a-minute vines and other “fun” plants...

    Plus that TBAC will give it a little extra length.
     
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    I have an 18.5” Creedmoor I recently chopped from 24”. My muzzle velocity drop from 2815 with 130gr Sierras to 2645. I don’t find it’s much of a handicap atleast not out to 800 and in, which is my preferred range for my setup. I run it in a Elberlestock Gunrunner H2
    5A216ACB-B8E2-4279-8544-BFEB1FC2AABB.jpeg
    pack.
     
    At either barrel length, Using similar weight bullets (the only real overlap is in the 150 grain range) the .308 will provide better muzzle velocity however; (and this is a big one) within about 200-300 yards the creedmoor is moving faster, will drop less and retains better energy down range for smacking steel or soft gushy animal materials.look up MV numbers from similar builds, pick a 6.5 and a.308 bullet of roughly the same weight and type, run the numbers for both in a ballistics calculator, and plot the drop, velocity and energy out to 1200 yards, the difference is shocking. I have been looking at this comparing 6.5 cm, 7-08, and .308 in 16, 18, and 20” barrel lengths, so far the sweet spot seems to be the 7-08 with 150-175 grain pills. All of these cartridges dip below reliable expansion velocity around 400-500 yards and drop below the mystical 1000ft-lb energy “requirement” that gun writers always prattle off with no real understanding in that same distance. The 1000 ft-lb number is probably arbitrary but the expansion velocity is not, you need big wound channels and hydrostatic shock to vitals to anchor animals. It seems that adding or cutting 2” of barrel will change MV enough to extend or shorten that “ethical”range by 75 yards or so in rough general terms.

    Sure you can increase the downrange performance of the .308 with 180 grain bullet but the trade off is in increased recoil. Sure the .308 makes more efficient use of the available powder charge but the downrange advantage goes to the 6.5 and 7 mm bullets, and don’t get me wrong, I love a .308 or .30-06 and wouldn’t consider either obsolete, but the math doesn’t support it being the king when you factor in Recoil in a lightweight rifle or long range performance with a shorter barrel. in my eyes,recoil doesn’t matter all that much so I wouldn’t totally rule out an 18” .308, it’s still probably overkill for hunting out to 300 yards or so, and the reloading and factory options for it are staggering to meet special criteria, but I already have a 20”.308 so I can’t justify the expense of a slightly shorter version of it while still I’m kid-poor. If you have a long 6.5 already, this might be a nice addition to it for field use.

    for me and my uses, running the numbers of several different bullets in several different barrel lengths shows an Optimal configuration of a 7-08 (maybe AI) running 150-162 gr. bullets from an 18” barrel. The 7 mm gives the option of considerably heavier bullets with great sectional density in case I need to hunt a bear and still gives mild recoil with ~150 gr. Bullets that nips at the heels of the 6.5 bullets at longer ranges. Add into that the longer barrel life that everybody worries so much about and the 18” 7mm is a nice middle ground thats still pretty short with a suppressor. I live in the south, shots rarely exceed 400 yards, if you live in a place with more sky and less trees, your solution may be different, but this seems to be a winner for a practical rifle that can do almost all of my hunting desires where I live and still play the target game for fun. I’m looking for a used Tikka locally to make this a reality. Just be honest with yourself about what you want the rifle to do and be analytical about what you need to meet those goals and that can guide You to a solution.

    My one counter point would be dropping down to the 123 in 6.5 would get back some velocity. BC isn't really a factor at the intermediate distances. That would be comparable to the 150 308 and 140 7mm class. Otherwise, solid points.
     
    FWIW I have a 18.5" AI AT 6.5CM and have no problems with it. It will easily shoot sub-moa at 1k, and I have even shot it out to a mile. My next rifle will be pretty much the exact same thing you're putting together. Planning on a Tikka CTR 6.5CM or .308 cut down to 16", using a can 99% of the time. It will be a mountain gun for hunting/general purpose use so I don't expect many real world shots past 500yds (aside from plinking) which makes the downsides of short barrel length negligible. Personally, for this type of build I will happily trade 50fps going from the 18" to 16" for any extra gains in weight savings and portability, especially once you screw on an extra 7" of can. My AI AT fully loaded comes in just under 20lbs, and I'm hoping to keep this next build under 10lbs.
     
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    17" 6.5 creed

    Have had zero issues with groupings or anything
     

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    My one counter point would be dropping down to the 123 in 6.5 would get back some velocity. BC isn't really a factor at the intermediate distances. That would be comparable to the 150 308 and 140 7mm class. Otherwise, solid points.

    Thats a valid critique. I started looking at this without a clear direction or goal in mind in response to a thread on .308s being obsolete and a question about cartridge efficiency and muzzle velocity. I had a pretty heavy confirmation bias toward the .30 cals and I was initially concerned mostly with muzzle velocity with similar weights and barrel lengths. Once I had a big ass excel file, and started plugging numbers into a ballistics app, I realized quickly that a more honest comparison would have been to start with either similar BC or similar velocity, so once I finished analyzing for weight, And ruled out the 16” barrel ( not quite enough velocity downrange for what I was looking for) and .308 (already have a decent 20” and the downrange velocity wasn’t great) then I started looking at BC and velocity comparisons for 6.5 and 7 mm at various bullet weights and finding the optimal range for each cartridge in an 18” barrel. From there it’s a matter of selecting a good twist rate and throat length. Realistically, all three cartridges are great under 500 yards, drop and velocity for all are ok and Like you said you can trade some BC for a higher MV, at that range it won’t matter much, but if you want to push out further it may matter more. at the end of the day each cartridge and barrel has a maximum amount of energy it can transfer to a bullet based on case capacity, powder type, SAAMI pressure, and expansion volume; you can add weight and lose velocity or vice versa, but once it leaves the barrel higher BC will trump MV pretty quickly beyond Intermediate ranges. 6.5 and 7 mms both offer a lot of light weight low drag options that can optimize BC and MV.

    My .30 cal confirmation bias is mostly gone, though I still think .308s work fine for this and a lot of other jobs with very little fuss. It ended up being a lot of work but it was a fun process.
     
    I use 130gr TGK in my 18” creedmoor and get 2715 fps.

    People using 123gr SST’s what velocity are you getting from an 18” barrel. Want to run the maths myself.
     
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