- Thread starter BiggBeans
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Like everyone else said, yes on the red dot.
It's only going to make you a better shooter. After the initial learning curve, it's easier, faster, more responsive, and feedback is one of the best parts. As I run through drills during live firing, it's so much easier to see the dot acting more erratically and then diagnosing or breaking down the fundamental errors for that round or shot or whatever. Dots make that much easier to do.
I've had a rear iron sight on a Glock shift during a long training session. I also had a target rear sight crack on a Springfield. This myth that iron sights are indestructible and red dots are "going to fail" is nonsense. Buy a proven, quality RDS and mount it properly and you shouldn't have any more issues than iron sights will give you. If you get a red dot AND have backup iron sights I'm not sure how anyone could argue that TWO sets of sights are not better than one lol.
It's only going to make you a better shooter. After the initial learning curve, it's easier, faster, more responsive, and feedback is one of the best parts. As I run through drills during live firing, it's so much easier to see the dot acting more erratically and then diagnosing or breaking down the fundamental errors for that round or shot or whatever. Dots make that much easier to do.
I've had a rear iron sight on a Glock shift during a long training session. I also had a target rear sight crack on a Springfield. This myth that iron sights are indestructible and red dots are "going to fail" is nonsense. Buy a proven, quality RDS and mount it properly and you shouldn't have any more issues than iron sights will give you. If you get a red dot AND have backup iron sights I'm not sure how anyone could argue that TWO sets of sights are not better than one lol.
for me, a red dot goes great on full sized pistols. the small windshield on small dots can be problematic at times.
for a wonder nine, on my body 24/7, modern snubby. i'm keeping it simple.. and from my experience
irons don't fog when it's 20 below, or have a chance of being broken. become occluded with mud.
they don't need to be turned up in the sun, or down in the dark.
they are ez to pick up when i'm laying on my side.. or when i'm shooting well off of directly in front of me aka at the range.
they conceal easier, don't snag or turn off.
and truthfully omy group size and speed isn't really drastically different inside of 7 yards.
for a wonder nine, on my body 24/7, modern snubby. i'm keeping it simple.. and from my experience
irons don't fog when it's 20 below, or have a chance of being broken. become occluded with mud.
they don't need to be turned up in the sun, or down in the dark.
they are ez to pick up when i'm laying on my side.. or when i'm shooting well off of directly in front of me aka at the range.
they conceal easier, don't snag or turn off.
and truthfully omy group size and speed isn't really drastically different inside of 7 yards.
What dot would people recommend for a subcompact (think VP9SK or similar)? Is something like an ACRO P-2 too large?
The vp9sk and many of its competitors are essentially as wide as larger pistols, so I'd look at the Acro P-2, Trijicon RMR type 2, and RMRcc for duty rated, proven optics. (Shield Sights "Glass edition" if you really want an even smaller optic). Stay away from the chinese/CCP OEM brands like holosn.
I am a big fan of an optic on a pistol, I shoot one in competition and carry a 365xl with a dot everyday. The dot it not a fix for lack of skill or lack of practice, if you carry a pistol in public daily or occasionally you have a responsibility to yourself and others to know how and when to shoot, I will use the old cliche, you can't bring that bullet back. I have saw several people post target focus, to simply, look at what you are gonna shoot and bring the dot to your eyes not the eyes to the dot.
Personal preference is one thing, but the listed "problems" just don't really come to fruition like everyone thinks. These statements also seem to be from only your experience with pistol dots.
If you start to listen to the top instructors across the US, you'll start to realize that these "problems" just don't happen or aren't as common as you'd like to believe. I'd rather listen to 10 instructors who've shot millions of rounds and taught tens of thousands of students, than one or two guys on here, to include myself. Luckily my own experience mirrors that of said instructors.
Iron sights break, come installed improperly, shift, etc. Iron sights can also become gooped up with mud, and I've even seen a small pebble lodged in the rear sight notch. Where does this "iron sights never have problems" come from?
"Conceal Easier"... only on paper. They're not hard to conceal. Proper holster and belt should solve all concealment issues. Wear a properly sized shirt lol.
Inside of 7 yards do you even need sights?? Of course they're similar inside 7 yards lol. Thats like saying a Honda CBR1000RR and tuned Harley Sportster are just as fast within the first 50ft lol...
If you start to listen to the top instructors across the US, you'll start to realize that these "problems" just don't happen or aren't as common as you'd like to believe. I'd rather listen to 10 instructors who've shot millions of rounds and taught tens of thousands of students, than one or two guys on here, to include myself. Luckily my own experience mirrors that of said instructors.
Have never heard anyone say this? I run a Holosun 507k and I've never had an issue. You're not looking "through" the window, so the size shouldn't be problematic, whatever that even means? A bigger window can help some shooters shoot quicker or have less obstruction, but thats not absolute.
The dots still work when it fogs, so this shouldn't impact self defense style shooting, as you're not looking through it like a scope. Put black tape on the front of a red dot on a pistol and if you're target focused, it shouldn't change your shooting at all.
Iron sights break, come installed improperly, shift, etc. Iron sights can also become gooped up with mud, and I've even seen a small pebble lodged in the rear sight notch. Where does this "iron sights never have problems" come from?
RMR's have auto adjust and It works very well. My RMR doesn't even have buttons, its always auto adjust.
Practice solves number 1
"Conceal Easier"... only on paper. They're not hard to conceal. Proper holster and belt should solve all concealment issues. Wear a properly sized shirt lol.
Inside of 7 yards do you even need sights?? Of course they're similar inside 7 yards lol. Thats like saying a Honda CBR1000RR and tuned Harley Sportster are just as fast within the first 50ft lol...
@Gustav7 It seems clear to me that the biggest naysayers are also the ones who have the least actual experience (maybe even none) with what we're talking about here. The issues they bring are either simply false or easily remedied and anyone who actually shoots and carries an RDS pistol can see right through them.
You nailed it.
Ironically, sub compact revolvers like S&W J frames are the kind of handgun that would benefit the most from a micro red dot.
The combination of small grip (easily changeable tho), super short sight radius, super shitty iron sights, and very heavy (tho smooth) DA trigger make them very difficult to shoot quickly with accuracy any further than bad breath distance.
The combination of small grip (easily changeable tho), super short sight radius, super shitty iron sights, and very heavy (tho smooth) DA trigger make them very difficult to shoot quickly with accuracy any further than bad breath distance.
I got my first red dot ever mounted on my Wife's Ruger 10/22 and have wondered about getting a red dot for her hand guns based on the experience. I have always used "point shooting" with pistols as I started with that with my Dad as a kid and refined it training with local guys in "Panic" drawing and shooting. For me, when it hits the fan and I need to put lead on target multiple times in the shortest time possible while watching the intended target and moving laterally away/to cover, sight acquisition just fouls it all up. For me. I have always trained to shoot where I look/point and do not acquire sights on handguns. I think I cold probably get as proficient faster with a red dot if I was starting from scratch. But I can hit exactly what I look at/point at with surprising accuracy while moving inside of 30ish feet which is about as far as I can imagine shooting in my every day environment.
Since most shooting/self defense with a hand gun takes place within less than 12' (bad breath distance) I spend most of my training money on more ammunition shot fast and while moving and never seek to acquire sights.
VooDoo
Since most shooting/self defense with a hand gun takes place within less than 12' (bad breath distance) I spend most of my training money on more ammunition shot fast and while moving and never seek to acquire sights.
VooDoo
Mostly I agree, but with primary arms sticking the ACSS Vulcan into holosuns exclusively, I unfortunately had to buy one.
that being said, a 507 with the acss reticle is amazing
What does that reticle do that a good solid index can't?
BTW, I cannot abide the circle and circle dot reticles in Holosun optics. They draw my eye in like nobody's business which is the last thing you want.
I do admit I have a 407C that I bought dirt cheap as a backup in case any of my Trijicons went down. I used the Holosun for day 1 of a shooting class and had a hell of a time staying target focused. Took it off and replaced it with an SRO overnight and right back to easily shooting with the front lens covered.
The circle isn't visible with the proper presentation. If you get a bad draw for whatever reason you can see a portion of the circle and based on that it guides you back to center.
Kind of a neat idea. Also has a Chevron instead of a dot so you have the point for fine poi and the arrow for a gross poi
Kind of a neat idea. Also has a Chevron instead of a dot so you have the point for fine poi and the arrow for a gross poi
I have a 60MOA ring with 1MOA dot jpoint (made by shield out of UK), I really like it, it’s got a bit of a ghost ring vibe, but with the fine dot for precision work. Not sure how it would work on a handgun, but it’s great on the rifle.
You guys crack me up.
After reading your eye opening retorts, It's probably just dumb luck that anyone's ever hit a target or survived any type of gunfight before red dot sights were invented.
The average gunfight takes place at/or less than 3-5 yards.
A red dot sight isn't needed for a normal person that has functioning eyes and some range time.
They are recommended for the sight impaired, which many here obviously are and I commend them for their use of an aiming aid to keep them in the fight, or the truly lazy couch commandos that don't practice with their weapons enough to become proficient with them and need a red dot sight to compensate for their laziness.
I also don't need to buy a special holster for any of my pistol's and try concealing a red dot sighted snub nose in your front pocket of your shorts or jeans.
I've been an RSO and competitor in the military and shooting sports for almost 40 years and while I've seen some issues with iron sighted pistols, most relating to fiber optic rod issues or when a pistol was used as a hammer, but rarely have I seen an iron sight pistol leave the field because of the sight's being inoperable.
I can't say the same for red dot sights.
I've seen pieces of red dot and holo sights littered all over shoot houses and competitors leaving the range because their dots aren't working and they didn't have to tool to remove the sight, so they could continue using their iron sights.
Red dot sights have their uses, but their not for everyone, just as iron sights aren't for everyone and most naysayers are speaking from experience or they would be extolling the use of red dot sights.
I came up on iron sighted pistols.i don't own any red dots for pistols but would be open to try on possibly a new pistol.my ccw guns are all 1911 platforms.
I use a 507k on a p365x and on a 43x.I like both and would have bought a trijicon if they would wake up and make what people want.You shouldn’t have to unbolt red dot to change battery.I have trijicon rifle scopes and prefer usa made but thats the world we live in.
I bet there’s China crap on every vehicle in the usa now days and we still drive them.I agree to a point but its hard to beat the 507k2.
I bet there’s China crap on every vehicle in the usa now days and we still drive them.I agree to a point but its hard to beat the 507k2.
I've used Red Dots and Lasers to help improve my proficiency, but would not even plan to have to be thinking about turning stuff on rather than thinking about shooting, what's in background, is the threat real, etc.
I would think any of the above options are “always on” or “shake awake” style sights
I have adapted to target focus.
Hell yes to red dots.
First my eye sight sucks, so not having to cock my head so the correct part of my glasses is focused on the front sight, which only means I see a blurry mess of a target, is a game changer.
Second any added printing is negligible and 1000 times worth the added accuracy and speed. I like to carry my 1911 commander length. So I'm not wearing tight clothes anyway
And third I have never had an issue picking up the dot. When I draw I automatically try and line up the iron sights, and because I co witness that is where my dot is...it has never been an issue. So for me there is no downside to a dot on a CC pistol.
First my eye sight sucks, so not having to cock my head so the correct part of my glasses is focused on the front sight, which only means I see a blurry mess of a target, is a game changer.
Second any added printing is negligible and 1000 times worth the added accuracy and speed. I like to carry my 1911 commander length. So I'm not wearing tight clothes anyway
And third I have never had an issue picking up the dot. When I draw I automatically try and line up the iron sights, and because I co witness that is where my dot is...it has never been an issue. So for me there is no downside to a dot on a CC pistol.
I shot probably 50,000 rounds with irons over the last 20ish years as an LEO before I ever tried a dot.
As many have said, dots will make you better.
I recently began the switch to dots on several pistols and even a Gp100. I carry a 365XL with RomeoZero in a Tier 1 holster. I had been carrying a Diamondback DB9 since it’s a dream to conceal. Also, since defensive engagements happen up close, I reasoned I would be in good shape.
Here’s the real issue for me:
I considered what I would have to do if I’m faced with a turd on antidepressants holding a rifle in a mall/church/theater etc. I determined long ago that I would face the threat, do my best and trust God with my future. This lead to a complete re-evaluation of my carry setup. I can connect with body shots at 50yd’s and head shots at 25 with the 365XL/RDS. Not as fast as with a rifle, but I can still get there. Those are much better numbers than with the tiny DB9 and allow me a much better standoff distance. Anyhow, that was the final clincher for me. I’m still slightly faster with irons, but I’m sure that time will speed that up as well.
As many have said, dots will make you better.
I recently began the switch to dots on several pistols and even a Gp100. I carry a 365XL with RomeoZero in a Tier 1 holster. I had been carrying a Diamondback DB9 since it’s a dream to conceal. Also, since defensive engagements happen up close, I reasoned I would be in good shape.
Here’s the real issue for me:
I considered what I would have to do if I’m faced with a turd on antidepressants holding a rifle in a mall/church/theater etc. I determined long ago that I would face the threat, do my best and trust God with my future. This lead to a complete re-evaluation of my carry setup. I can connect with body shots at 50yd’s and head shots at 25 with the 365XL/RDS. Not as fast as with a rifle, but I can still get there. Those are much better numbers than with the tiny DB9 and allow me a much better standoff distance. Anyhow, that was the final clincher for me. I’m still slightly faster with irons, but I’m sure that time will speed that up as well.
I have one gun with an RMR and adore it. If I could afford it I would have one on every single one of my guns.
Yes there was a learning curve. Yes the red dot did show me flaws in my draw and presentation.. I trained through them, with the help of a long time comp shooter and instructor. Now I love it, and guess what, I now shoot irons better than ever!
Yes there was a learning curve. Yes the red dot did show me flaws in my draw and presentation.. I trained through them, with the help of a long time comp shooter and instructor. Now I love it, and guess what, I now shoot irons better than ever!
This is how I know you don't know shit from shinola despite your "40 years" of whatever bullshit you do.
Absolutely!
When I first transitioned to a dot, it was slow and awkward. I took an 8 hour class and afterwards I found that it was easier to shoot more accurately and I was able to acquire my sight picture more quickly than with iron sights alone.
Now, all of my primary pistols have Trigicon RMRs on them.
I'll never go back.
When I first transitioned to a dot, it was slow and awkward. I took an 8 hour class and afterwards I found that it was easier to shoot more accurately and I was able to acquire my sight picture more quickly than with iron sights alone.
Now, all of my primary pistols have Trigicon RMRs on them.
I'll never go back.
I'm just here for the comments. Which are on point but also amazing.
Yeah, some of these replies are head scratchers.
We moved on from iron sighted rifles and generally everyone has accepted the benefits of red dots and magnified optics. Those same benefits apply to pistols, although generally it's magnified since pistols are harder to shoot.
Both USPSA and IDPA provide a good metric for increased performance. Look at the scores for Carry Optics vs Limited. Better yet, shoot some classifiers and see where your own skills stack up.
We moved on from iron sighted rifles and generally everyone has accepted the benefits of red dots and magnified optics. Those same benefits apply to pistols, although generally it's magnified since pistols are harder to shoot.
Both USPSA and IDPA provide a good metric for increased performance. Look at the scores for Carry Optics vs Limited. Better yet, shoot some classifiers and see where your own skills stack up.
Worth a few mins of your time, I promise.
blog.krtraining.com
Red Dot Study - Key Points - Notes from KR
In 2015 & 2016 KR Training partnered with the Texas A&M Huffines Institute to jointly fund and conduct an academic study comparing shooter performance using iron sights, green lasers, and slide mounted red dot sights (with and without backup iron sights). This blog post summarizes the key...
blog.krtraining.com Everyone is always suspicious of new tech. I thought I should spend more time learning on my iron sights before going to a red dot. Worked on my presentation until the dot comes up automatically now - it's really no different than aligning your front sights, you just assume that iron sights are easier to find under stress because they're always visible in some way. Visible in some way does not mean aligned and on target. The time you spend aligning your front sights, you should have solved with presentation. Do your homework as a responsible firearm owner and get it right. Grip and trigger are key too. As soon as you see that dot on target, you should already be breaking the shot. I continue to get faster, I'm surprised at how much I don't even think about my sights anymore...I'm solely focused on platform, grip, and a breaking the shot.
Also, be suspicious of anyone talking about people bragging about seeing RDS parts at a range - that's total BS. These things are tough, expensive, and they are great for a one handed rack. That's why you CO-WITNESS with iron sights. You don't tape up iron sights and you don't break off an RDS because you had a grown man baby tantrum. Iron sights are a great secondary visual reference while you're getting your presentation together but they become just an emergency option once you get comfortable with a dot. Bottom line you should have both.
Also, be suspicious of anyone talking about people bragging about seeing RDS parts at a range - that's total BS. These things are tough, expensive, and they are great for a one handed rack. That's why you CO-WITNESS with iron sights. You don't tape up iron sights and you don't break off an RDS because you had a grown man baby tantrum. Iron sights are a great secondary visual reference while you're getting your presentation together but they become just an emergency option once you get comfortable with a dot. Bottom line you should have both.
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You're factually incorrect about the bolded ^^^ words above... in truth, the fastest way to improve a newb's indexing and use of a dot optic is to tape over or remove the steel sights and force the shooter to focus on the target as the pistol is pushed forward. Conventional sights are only used as backup in the event the dot optic fails.
The myth that conventional sights 'help one find the dot' needs to die, as does the bad advice for shooters to fully co-witness their sights to the Dot. If one MUST have BUIS, the sights should be as low in the lens as possible- "lower third witness".
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When your using something like a trijicon RMR are the factory sights visible through the optic? Talking factory glock or sig type irons. Not suppressor height
My EDC is a M-18/P320 with a Delta Point Pro and suppressor height sight’s carried in a White Hat IWB holster. No problems with battery life, however I change batteries at each time change just to make sure. 
CCW..."concealed carry".
drawing a weapon needs to be smooth and fast. you need to train for it a lot. red dot's are too bulky in my opinion for CCW. I have tritium sites on my carry weapon and that's only because it's the way it came.
my favorite holster is a Galco combat master. no strap, just held in by fit. it hides well and rides just right for me. with a "fat man shirt" it is fast to get out and does not print as some stated do not allow. some officers will try to give you a hard time for that. one day i had an officer to say he could draw the shape of my handgun. hell, any idiot can draw a handgun. the problem was, he was looking at a bulge from a ham radio ht on my belt on the other side from the handgun.
i quit donating ammo to that department and refused to train them after that.
Which pistol/RDS/holster combination did you use, and for how long, to come to that conclusion?
Worth a few mins of your time, I promise.
Red Dot Study - Key Points - Notes from KR
In 2015 & 2016 KR Training partnered with the Texas A&M Huffines Institute to jointly fund and conduct an academic study comparing shooter performance using iron sights, green lasers, and slide mounted red dot sights (with and without backup iron sights). This blog post summarizes the key...
The study is completely useless pseudo-scientific bullshit. Right from that document:
Well, NO SHIT people in the study would perform worse with them.................
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So with zero experience with these type of sights you've already predetermined the outcome.
Take off the sights and see what happens
How do you guys come up with some of this stuff?
Not for me. Just one more thing to get caught on clothes.
No, Production in USPSA is limited to 10 rounds per mag forcing 2-3X the number of mag changes compared to Limited which changes how you approach a stage and makes it very difficult to approach the hit factor you can get when you only have 0-1 reloads to do.
While you're correct about the PF difference between Limited and CO, in practice CO shooters are very competitive with those in Limited unless it's a short hoser stage.
Now IDPA Enhanced Service Pistol vs Carry Optics is a better comparison because IDPA CO is exactly the same as ESP with the exception of the sights. At every local IDPA match I've attended good CO shooters crush good SSP and ESP shooters with ease.
I do not have a red dot on my CCW for a couple of reasons. First, if you are pulling your weapon for self defense, most likely it is going to happen very quickly and within very close quarters. I feel there wouldn't be the time or need to take "a beed" and shoot. I believe it will be quick reaction, so, no need for a red dot. Second, if, God forbid, you are forced to shoot, the police will confiscate your weapon. I don't believe they would allow you to remove your red dot before they take your gun. Oh, as I am writing this I remembered reading that prosecution can, and probably will state having a red dot shows "intent". Pre planning on your part. Think it through before dropping money on a red dot for your CCW.
@308pirate is this what conversations looked like 20 years ago before red dots and optics became the standard on AR15s? I would bet that most of the dudes against them on pistols have all their ARs outfitted with dots and optics.
Can you be effective with irons? yes
Can you get a new shooter more proficient in less time with a red dot? yes
Can you be effective with irons? yes
Can you get a new shooter more proficient in less time with a red dot? yes
All bullshit
5 yard draws with aimed fire, I bet much faster than your "quick reaction"
Do show us where you read that putting an RDS on a handgun shows intent or pre planning to shoot someone. Which fudd magazine was that?
I can accept a disagreement from someone who put in an honest effort to learn how to use one but couldn't come to grips with it (as difficult as that is for me to imagine).
But 99% of the objections here are from people who clearly
- Have never used one or
- Put 5 shots through one and called it good
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