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Reloading For The AR-15: What You Should Know About Concentricity

Molon

Gunny Sergeant
Minuteman
Feb 26, 2020
870
2,274
Reloading For The AR-15: What You Should Know About Concentricity


noveske_spr_with_bipod_and_scope_11-1327409.jpg



Concentric:having a common center. Think of concentricity as
a circle centered within a larger circle. The amount that one circle is
off-center with the other is referred to as “runout” and is usually
measured in thousandths of an inch when pertaining to ammunition.
Why does all this matter? The more concentric, or the less runout that
a loaded round has, the more likely it is to shoot accurately. The bullet
needs to be centered in the case neck and the case neck must be
centered on the case body. This all helps the cartridge align itself in
the chamber of the rifle so that the bullet has a straight shot to enter
the rifling.

Obviously the better the job the seating die does in seating the
bullet squarely in the center of the case neck the more concentric the
round will be. The Forster Ultra Micrometer Bullet Seater Die does a
great job of this by using a sliding sleeve that supports the case while
precisely aligning the bullet for seating. The Redding Competition
Bullet Seating Die works on the same principle and I use both with
outstanding results. Both work equally well in my Dillon XL 650.

Before you can even seat your bullets you have to have a case
in which the neck is centered within the case body. Redding’s Type-S
Bushing Style Dies and Competition Bushing Style Neck Sizing Dies
have worked extremely well for me in achieving concentric case
necks. One area in which I chose to make a compromise pertains to
concentricity of case necks. In order for the dies to be able to
perfectly align the case neck with the case body, the case neck has to
have a perfectly uniform thickness around its circumference. Even
quality 223 Remington cases can come from the factory with at least a
couple of thousandths of an inch of variation in case neck thickness.

To achieve a case neck thickness that does not vary by more than a
few ten-thousandths of an inch, a process known as “neck turning”
can be utilized. Benchrest shooters use this technique to achieve
virtually zero runout in their cases, but it is probably one of the most
time consuming techniques in precision reloading. Since the
chambers on most AR-15s are huge by benchrest standards, I
choose to forgo this step.

Since I do not neck-turn my cases, I do use the expander ball in
my sizing dies. This pushes the variations in case neck thickness
to the outside of the case neck and helps achieve better seated bullet
runout. Remember, with runout “Less is Better”.

The carbide size button (expander ball) of the Redding die floats on
the spindle and works quite well in not pulling the case neck off center
as it exits and expands the case neck. Choosing a bushing diameter that
sizes the case neck down to only a couple of thousandths smaller than
the expanded diameter of the case neck helps the whole process work
more smoothly and probably contributes to case life by not overworking
the brass

Once the bullet is seated, the “seated bullet runout” must be measured using
a concentricity guage. Once again there are several makes on the market. I use
the NECO Concentricity Gauge. When using the gauge I place the center of
the ball of the GEM indicator roughly .050 to .060” ahead of the case mouth.
I consistently achieve an average seated bullet runout of .001” with my reloading
procedures and the 30 round sample that I tested for this portion of this text
had an average runout of only .0008”.

Cases viewed from directly above.
case_neck_concentricity_03-1327386.jpg



The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my Krieger barreled AR-15s
at a distance of 100 yards using hand-loads that were loaded on my Dillon XL-650
using techniques described above. The group has an extreme spread of 0.474".


0002_55_blitzkings_from_223_krieger_51_t-1327392.jpg




....
 
Sweet Group.

Ever measured concentricity before being slammed home by the bolt and than eject the live round and measure after?

I dont know if there is a difference but my regard for the violence of the process says there is a little banana making going on.
 
Good info. My thought on expander balls is that having enough/correct lube is crucial. Incorrect lube can double or triple the force needed to expand a neck.

I use a bunch of different dies that I’ve collected over the years. Maybe I’m lucky but I never have any issue with runout. From Forster and Redding to cheap Lee dies my runout is never more than .0015. It’s typically .0009 or so. I don’t check every round but when the first random 20 I check are all the same I call it good.

I’ve always left my dies loose(not locking with ring) with the thought that allowing a little play at the threads will allow the die to right itself depending on the angle of the ram/case. When seating bullets I always gently touch the bullet in the die first to set it straight before seating it. There are other nuanced things I do just imagining that doing it different could cause runout. I have no idea which ones work but my thought is that how you set things up and how you run the press can have as much to do with it as exactly which dies you use.

Has anyone ever done a test to see how much runout matters? Like a set of the exact same hand loads separated by runout and shot for groups? Surely someone has. I can’t imagine anything under .0004 would matter to a tactical(0.4 moa) shooter.
 
Has anyone ever done a test to see how much runout matters? Like a set of the exact same hand loads separated by runout and shot for groups? Surely someone has. I can’t imagine anything under .0004 would matter to a tactical(0.4 moa) shooter.
Here is a thread I posted quite a while ago, where I did exactly what you suggest.

6692F52A-7262-4D1A-8DA9-E42B5665FC64.jpeg

Measurements are outside edge measurements. The FGMM is not really a group as I was monkeying with the rifle’s function before shooting the handload groups.
 
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IMO, if you are not turning case necks, you can get better results by using a non-bushing die; a FL die like the Forster (OK, just the Forster) that supports both the body and neck in alignment can do a better job of preventing uneven necks from sizing un-concentrically.

Also - you can send your FL die to Forster to have them hone the neck to the diameter you want.

The bushing dies make a lot more sense when you turn case necks to consistent and even thickness.
 
Here is a thread I posted quite a while ago, where I did exactly what you suggest.

View attachment 7279521
Measurements are outside edge measurements. The FGMM is not really a group as I was monkeying with the rifle’s function before shooting the handload groups.
It’s a good start but you’d really have to test a lot more bullets preferably in a few different rifles to show any significance. I’ve done a ton of tests to prove to myself which issues matter and don’t matter. I’ve never been able to test runout because my runout has always been pretty minimal. Not sure what keeps it in a good range but I’m not complaining lol.
 
IMO, if you are not turning case necks, you can get better results by using a non-bushing die;

I don't neck turn my cases that are intended to be fired in a semi-automatic AR-15 and I do using a neck bushing die (Redding Type S full-length sizing die) and my seated bullet run-out is excellent for hand-loads that are loaded on a progressive press (Dillon XL-6500). Using Lake City brass (5.56mm/223 Remington) that has been resized with the Redding die in a Forster press and then loaded on the Dillon XL-650, thirty (30) randomly selected cartridges from a large lot had a seated bullet run-out of 0.0011" with a standard deviation of 0.00044".
 
Hmmm. For the AR? For me, I'd want to see groups with more runout as a comparison.
That said, if your ammo is running more than 3 thousandths runout, it would be good to check the process

For benchrest, absolutely.
 
I don't neck turn my cases that are intended to be fired in a semi-automatic AR-15 and I do using a neck bushing die (Redding Type S full-length sizing die) and my seated bullet run-out is excellent for hand-loads that are loaded on a progressive press (Dillon XL-6500). Using Lake City brass (5.56mm/223 Remington) that has been resized with the Redding die in a Forster press and then loaded on the Dillon XL-650, thirty (30) randomly selected cartridges from a large lot had a seated bullet run-out of 0.0011" with a standard deviation of 0.00044".

Your runout may be excellent, but how about neck tension? The thing with most bushing die setups is the lack of an expander ball, which helps reduce runout but does result in uneven neck tension if you're not neck turning (or sorting brass by neck thickness); when you only size the outside of the case neck, the resulting ID is uneven. Of course if you're using an expander ball, that's different and not the setup I was cautioning against. Runout isn't everything.
 
Just my thoughts and i come from a more bench precision reloading background but I’ve never been a fan of the expander ball in any setup. I think it would almost always be better to use a bushing sizing die that sizes it to slightly under what neck tension you want And then use expander die to true inside of case and then seat. The expander die mandrels are ground to extreme precision unlike any expander that I have heard of too. Then you have control over the entire process and not at the mercy of the expander ball. I further feel that if you are trying to squeak out this this much accuracy you should probably spend the time to clean the neck to a half thou or a total skim and just use bushing dies.

There are a lot of other problems involved in this such as annealing and how well it was annealed and brass spring back. Also if you start with good brass you may not have this problem at all. Just my thoughts.
 
Just my thoughts and i come from a more bench precision reloading background but I’ve never been a fan of the expander ball in any setup. I think it would almost always be better to use a bushing sizing die that sizes it to slightly under what neck tension you want And then use expander die to true inside of case and then seat. The expander die mandrels are ground to extreme precision unlike any expander that I have heard of too. Then you have control over the entire process and not at the mercy of the expander ball. I further feel that if you are trying to squeak out this this much accuracy you should probably spend the time to clean the neck to a half thou or a total skim and just use bushing dies.

There are a lot of other problems involved in this such as annealing and how well it was annealed and brass spring back. Also if you start with good brass you may not have this problem at all. Just my thoughts.

You lost me at the supposed difference between an expander ball and expander die mandrel. Pretty much every expander ball I've ever seen was round enough, and it's the same one going through every case so the exact size is less important than the consistency between cases. I'm not sure I buy this claim of "extreme precision" compared to expander balls. Do you have any data, or just marketing claims? You can buy carbide expander balls that are slick and "extreme precision" as well, whatever we think that means.
 

They used to guarantee these were within .0005 tolerance. How big exactly Is the expander ball on a Redding S die or rcbs die? I’ve never seen any numbers. I assume you could have it ground or made however big you want but I’ve never seen any published numbers. This way you know.
 
Your runout may be excellent, but how about neck tension?



My neck tension is about as good as it can get for a 5.56mm/223 Remington case that hasn’t been neck-turned. I’ve conducted tests using a modified K&M arbor press that measures bullet-pull, in order to determine what processes produce the most consistent neck tension for ammunition used in a semi-automatic precision AR-15.



compression_gauge_02-1433808.jpg










The thing with most bushing die setups is the lack of an expander ball, which helps reduce runout but does result in uneven neck tension if you're not neck turning (or sorting brass by neck thickness); the resulting ID is uneven



From the original post in this thread:



“Since I do not neck-turn my cases, I do use the expander ball in
my sizing dies . . . This pushes the variations in case neck thickness
to the outside of the case neck . . .



case_neck_concentricity_03-1327386.jpg
. . .”




...
 
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From the original post in this thread:



“Since I do not neck-turn my cases, I do use the expander ball in
my sizing dies . . . This pushes the variations in case neck thickness
to the outside of the case neck . . .

.”

OK, then we are in agreement. I specifically mentioned neck bushing setups with an expander ball were not what I was talking about. The point here is that the inside of the case neck needs to be sized if you're not controlling neck thickness.

Of course if you're using an expander ball, that's different and not the setup I was cautioning against.
 
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They used to guarantee these were within .0005 tolerance. How big exactly Is the expander ball on a Redding S die or rcbs die? I’ve never seen any numbers. I assume you could have it ground or made however big you want but I’ve never seen any published numbers. This way you know.

Why do you think that .0005" tolerance matters so much? As long as each case is being sized on the same expander ball and you control the neck tension to what you want, I don't think it matters. You can buy different expander balls for some die brands as well.

Perhaps a more significant factor in what you're seeing is the difference of pulling a case neck over the expander, vs pushing it. The mandrel die works when it's pushed over, but you can do the same thing with an expander ball in a separate step after the sizing die (just like the mandrel die). The mandrel may have more rigidity though, vs an expander ball mounted on the end of a decapping stem.

Of course, carbide (either an expander ball or Sinclair mandrel) makes things go a lot smoother and is very nice to work with.
 
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