Remington Factory Barrel Problems

[jakhamr81]

I have a 700 SPS tactical 308, un-bedded in an HS precision stock. I'm shooting LR118. The barrel is the factory 1/12 twist, and I had it cut and re-crowned at 18 inches.

Here's the problem, the gun will shoot 1/4 inch groups, however those groups tend to open up as I shoot to about 1 1/2. I know that at least part of that is due to me, call that shooter fatigue or inconsistency, but don't believe it is all is shooter error.

I have heard that the factory barrels are known for changing the POI as they heat up. Has anyone found this to be true? will bedding the receiver have any effect on this? Any other advice is appreciated.

 

[flyboy]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Bedding the action is alway a good first move as it will not detract from the acuracy of the rifle unless done wrong. Another thing to be aware of is the time the ammo spends in a hot chamber. I'm not farmilar with the heat sensitivitys of the LR118 ammo but if you'r letting rounds sit in the hot chamber for say 20 to 30 seconds, that could be having an effect. Just a thought.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Hmm, never thought about the ammo heating up, that's a good point. Have you found heat sensitivity issues with other loads?

 

[flyboy]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Absolutley. A number of my handloads don't take kindly to sitting in the sun or being left in a hot chamber for more than a minute. Its a SWAG as to where that round might go but it most certainly wont hit what I was aming at. Now on the other hand. I have loads with Varget for example that don't seem to mind much of anything. YMMV.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a 700 SPS tactical 308, un-bedded in an HS precision stock. I'm shooting LR118. The barrel is the factory 1/10 twist, and I had it cut and re-crowned at 18 inches.

Here's the problem, the gun will shoot 1/4 inch groups, however those groups tend to open up as I shoot to about 1 1/2. I know that at least part of that is due to me, call that shooter fatigue or inconsistency, but don't believe it is all is shooter error.

I have heard that the factory barrels are known for changing the POI as they heat up. Has anyone found this to be true? will bedding the receiver have any effect on this? Any other advice is appreciated. </div></div>

There are probably a lot of things going into your groups opening up.

Any barrel is going to change the POI after it heats up. And like the other guy said, the temperature can have a lot to do with it. Ie: If you zero your firearm when it is 72 degrees out, you could be shooting significantly different spot when it is 92 degrees out.

How many shots are you firing between cleaning the barrel at the range?

Is the barrel on the tactical a heavy barrel?

Maybe wait a bit between shooting groups, let everything cool down.

 

[dmg308]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

You sure its not a 1-12 twist? Factory barrels are not always stress relieved properly and tend to open up as they get hot.They also tend to foul more.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Yes, you are absolutely correct, I was thinking of my Noveske barrel. It is a 1/12. Is their anything that you can do after production to relieve stress? I don't think fouling is a problem, I clean it pretty regularly and do not pull much copper out. In fact, I probably clean it to much.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you are absolutely correct, I was thinking of my Noveske barrel. It is a 1/12. Is their anything that you can do after production to relieve stress? I don't think fouling is a problem, I clean it pretty regularly and do not pull much copper out. In fact, I probably clean it to much. </div></div>

How many shots between cleaning at the range? After 10-20 shots at the range, the groupings are going to start to open up a bit.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USN_Sam1385</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you are absolutely correct, I was thinking of my Noveske barrel. It is a 1/12. Is their anything that you can do after production to relieve stress? I don't think fouling is a problem, I clean it pretty regularly and do not pull much copper out. In fact, I probably clean it to much. </div></div>

How many shots between cleaning at the range? After 10-20 shots at the range, the groupings are going to start to open up a bit. </div></div>
What? Whatever you do, don't clean it after only 20 rounds! Did it shoot better before you had it cut and re-crowned?

Are some people really seeing differences in how a rifle shoots after leaving a round in a hot chamber for a few extra seconds? Or between 72 Degrees and 92 Degrees outside? 'Cause I gotta tell ya, I've been shooting for over 30 years and I have never even considered those factors... Nor have I experienced that.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Holy hell, every 20 rounds?!

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

I was cleaning my rifle after every use (old habits die hard). I then noticed that I wasn't turning the copper solvent blue at all, so after talking to a few more experienced shooters I am able to allow myself a couple hundred rounds before I punch the bore.

It is the heavy tactical barrel, and the only difference I've noticed since I've cut it down is that my best groups are tighter.

I'm going to pillar bed it, and I was also thinking of the TUBB 2000 Final Finish Bore Polishing System from Midway, anyone have any experience with this?

 

[flyboy]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Bed the rifle and shoot the rifle. Leave the TUBB final finish stuff alone. Its sandpaper bullets (bad juju)

 

[AK10mm]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bed the rifle and shoot the rifle. Leave the TUBB final finish stuff alone. Its sandpaper bullets (bad juju) </div></div>

+1 David Tubb can afford to buy barrels

 

[Furtaker_.223]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

I have a 308 sps. I see mine opening up after 15-20 shots. i think mine is due to barrel temp. I will set it down, shoot another rifle for a while, pick up the 308 again and it is back to driving tacs. So, with that said, it is going to longrifle for a new barrel, bolt, bedding and who knows what else. I also use varget and it is not heat sensetive. Now, winchester 748 is. My handloads sit in the cooler till it is time to shoot on a hot day.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USN_Sam1385</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you are absolutely correct, I was thinking of my Noveske barrel. It is a 1/12. Is their anything that you can do after production to relieve stress? I don't think fouling is a problem, I clean it pretty regularly and do not pull much copper out. In fact, I probably clean it to much. </div></div>

How many shots between cleaning at the range? After 10-20 shots at the range, the groupings are going to start to open up a bit. </div></div>
What? Whatever you do, don't clean it after only 20 rounds! Did it shoot better before you had it cut and re-crowned?

Are some people really seeing differences in how a rifle shoots after leaving a round in a hot chamber for a few extra seconds? Or between 72 Degrees and 92 Degrees outside? 'Cause I gotta tell ya, I've been shooting for over 30 years and I have never even considered those factors... Nor have I experienced that. </div></div>

"Temperature affects air density."

"The cooler the air, the higher the air density, thus greater resistance. The warmer the air, the lower the air density, so there will be less resistance and your bullet will impact high. For 7.62mm and 308 Win ammunition, use the general rule: First you need to know at what temperature you are zeroed for. Lower your scope's elevation by 1 MOA for every +20 deg F change. Raise the sigh's elevation or bullet impact 1 MOA for ever -20 deg F change."

From: The Military and Police Sniper, by Mike R. Lau, owner of TBA.

It has probably happened to you several times in 30 years, maybe you just did not notice.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was cleaning my rifle after every use (old habits die hard). I then noticed that I wasn't turning the copper solvent blue at all, so after talking to a few more experienced shooters I am able to allow myself a couple hundred rounds before I punch the bore.

It is the heavy tactical barrel, and the only difference I've noticed since I've cut it down is that my best groups are tighter.

I'm going to pillar bed it, and I was also thinking of the TUBB 2000 Final Finish Bore Polishing System from Midway, anyone have any experience with this? </div></div>

Nothing wrong with cleaning your rifle after every use. However, I would wait to use the copper solvent til every few hundred.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USN_Sam1385</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you are absolutely correct, I was thinking of my Noveske barrel. It is a 1/12. Is their anything that you can do after production to relieve stress? I don't think fouling is a problem, I clean it pretty regularly and do not pull much copper out. In fact, I probably clean it to much. </div></div>

How many shots between cleaning at the range? After 10-20 shots at the range, the groupings are going to start to open up a bit. </div></div>
What? Whatever you do, don't clean it after only 20 rounds! Did it shoot better before you had it cut and re-crowned?

Are some people really seeing differences in how a rifle shoots after leaving a round in a hot chamber for a few extra seconds? Or between 72 Degrees and 92 Degrees outside? 'Cause I gotta tell ya, I've been shooting for over 30 years and I have never even considered those factors... Nor have I experienced that. </div></div>

As for your other question.

Temperature affects ammunition.

"Not only is air density affected by temperature, but it also affects the cartridge propellant. Using ammunition in hot climates, or if just left in the sunlight, may cause an increase in the burning rate of the powder causing higher velocities. Higher velocities cause bullets to impact higher. Inconsistent velocities increase vertical dispersion of bullets on a target. Store your ammunition out of direct sunlight. Police snipers have this problem when they store their rifle and ammunition in the trunk of their police car during the summer."

Mike R. Lau, The Military and Police Sniper (Page 152)

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy hell, every 20 rounds?! </div></div>

"I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset bench rest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns."

http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html

Gale McMillan.... course what does he know...

Btw, I recall correctly you are the guy that told me this about my bolt knob:

"I don't think I know any serious shooter who would take someone with such a thing seriously."

Why don't you start hitting the books again serious guy.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Books don't mean shit.
While Gale was one of the best at being ahead of his time in the "no-bs" as far as cleaning and break in were concerned, many shooters these days are doing alot more practical precision rifle shooting and looking at the effects of temp on ammo and poi shift by actually putting rounds downrange.
Try the sniper's hide specific google search engine for some up to date info rather than the dated material you are touting/spouting:
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=010955838166721108978:qcbx5qqy10o&hl=en

I usually get about 600rds or so without cleaning before my accuracy falls off in my 308, it will hold POA when the tube's hot as Hades (as long as you don't let rounds cook in the chamber).

Homework's nice, but rangework clears up alot real quickly....

 

[KopfenJager]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Im new here, so take what I say with a grain of salt. 8541/8531/0311 in the suck. We where taught all the calcs for temp, alt, wind, baro, you name it. All this was good to go, but, We practiced so mutch unknown distance shooting, we just learned to swag it. Its not so much what the gun does as long as you know what its doing and you can compensate. What does this meen? Shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Classrooms and books help, but its real world exp that counts.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KopfenJager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im new here, so take what I say with a grain of salt. 8541/8531/0311 in the suck. We where taught all the calcs for temp, alt, wind, baro, you name it. All this was good to go, but, We practiced so mutch unknown distance shooting, we just learned to swag it. Its not so much what the gun does as long as you know what its doing and you can compensate. What does this meen? Shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Classrooms and books help, but its real world exp that counts.</div></div>

I think I like this FNG...lol

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Thanks everyone, I got a lot of great advice. I think I will bed the gun, shoot the hell out of it so I can better predict what it will do under any given condition, and maybe in a year or so I can get it re-barreled.

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

... And here's the very next paragraph in the same article by Mr. Gale McMillan:

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

... So what's your point.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... And here's the very next paragraph in the same article by Mr. Gale McMillan:

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

... So what's your point. </div></div>

I am not arguing that you should do a barrel break in procedure at all. I am simply stating that during competition, Gale recommends cleaning your rifle every 10 round or so.

.... So what's your point?

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Books don't mean shit.
While Gale was one of the best at being ahead of his time in the "no-bs" as far as cleaning and break in were concerned, many shooters these days are doing alot more practical precision rifle shooting and looking at the effects of temp on ammo and poi shift by actually putting rounds downrange.
Try the sniper's hide specific google search engine for some up to date info rather than the dated material you are touting/spouting:
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=010955838166721108978:qcbx5qqy10o&hl=en

I usually get about 600rds or so without cleaning before my accuracy falls off in my 308, it will hold POA when the tube's hot as Hades (as long as you don't let rounds cook in the chamber).

Homework's nice, but rangework clears up alot real quickly....
</div></div>

I agree. However, they replied to my original post as though it was absurd to clean the barrel every 20 rounds or so to keep the groups tight. There are those that believe this to be true, and almost any guy at a range comp. will do so.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KopfenJager</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im new here, so take what I say with a grain of salt. 8541/8531/0311 in the suck. We where taught all the calcs for temp, alt, wind, baro, you name it. All this was good to go, but, We practiced so mutch unknown distance shooting, we just learned to swag it. Its not so much what the gun does as long as you know what its doing and you can compensate. What does this meen? Shoot, shoot and shoot some more. Classrooms and books help, but its real world exp that counts. </div></div>

You Marines never were much for spelling or paragraph structure... but you sure can shoot. Welcome to the forum brother. Where was your instructor duty at?

 

[Mike]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Sorry,
I believe that barrel break in is BS, I believe frequent cleaning will degrade a barrel (yes, a custom), and I believe that affects of environmentals on accuracy is very over rated.

I firmly believe that people say their groups are "opening up" with a custom barrel after 20 or so rounds just cant shoot.

Every "range expert" I've ever encountered usually talk out of their ass and only mimic what they've heard, not what they've seen.

Pointing out, again, that this is not a BR forum nor do most of us care what BR shooters do, you will find that for our purposes you load, shoot and only clean when you absolutely must.

I've had a multitude of custom rifles and I have yet to see the lack of break in or cleaning affect the accuracy or barrel life. If anything it has probably increased barrel life.

$.02

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry,
I believe that barrel break in is BS, I believe frequent cleaning will degrade a barrel (yes, a custom), and I believe that affects of environmentals on accuracy is very over rated.

I firmly believe that people say their groups are "opening up" with a custom barrel after 20 or so rounds just cant shoot.

Every "range expert" I've ever encountered usually talk out of their ass and only mimic what they've heard, not what they've seen.

Pointing out, again, that this is not a BR forum nor do most of us care what BR shooters do, you will find that for our purposes you load, shoot and only clean when you absolutely must.

I've had a multitude of custom rifles and I have yet to see the lack of break in or cleaning affect the accuracy or barrel life. If anything it has probably increased barrel life.

$.02 </div></div>

We agree then. I think barrel break in is complete hog wash as well.

"I firmly believe that people say their groups are "opening up" with a custom barrel after 20 or so rounds just cant shoot. "

I agree with that as well.

This guy has a factory barrel.

I also agree with you that Sniper's don't need to worry about most of this stuff. Their accuracy needs to be good enough to simply hit and kill a man sized target. However, I would say that MOST of the guys here do not have this purpose or goal in mind. If they did, you wouldn't have a thread about the proper way to post group sizes, cause no one would be posting them.

 

[Mike]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Also, on the TUBB's final finish too. I've used the TUBB TMS (throat maintenance system) on my "barrel burners" and it does help quite a bit. However it is just meant for the throat area.

For the Final Finish, yes it does work and yes, as someone pointed out it is bad juju for a custom barrel. However, since I think Remington factory barrels are crap, and the fact is it will be a long time before you burn one up, it's worth it to do it at least once.
If you're going to go to a custom barrel eventually anyway, any sandpaper affect you get from the TFF is not going to be any worse that the nasty rough factory barrel anyway. If the TFF is sandpaper to bullets, the factory Rem barrel is a cheese grader.

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Side note:

I thoroughly enjoy having these mutually respectful debates. I promise you won't hurt my feelings, and I hope I do not hurt yours. I am still adjusting to the over-sensitivity of some people in the civilian world.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you're going to go to a custom barrel eventually anyway, any sandpaper affect you get from the TFF is not going to be any worse that the nasty rough factory barrel anyway. If the TFF is sandpaper to bullets, the factory Rem barrel is a cheese grader. </div></div>

I used to be a huge fan of everything Remington until I spoke with my armorer who took a tour of the Remington plant. He basically said that Remington is using the same exact tooling they set up 1962 when they introduced the 700s. The "master" gun builders have no formal schooling, and are in their positions by seniority. In his opinion it is a miracle that a factory built 700 can hold a group at all. He then showed me what he was talking about with a bore scope.

With that said I will eventually re-barrel this 700, but not for at least a year, so I need to make this one work until then. Thanks again for the advice everyone.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In his opinion it is a miracle that a factory built 700 can hold a group at all. He then showed me what he was talking about with a bore scope.
</div></div>

It is actually kind of sad, to be honest. To watch a great brand with a huge amount of history behind it that has turned out a solid performing action in use for decades get bought up by a hedge fund and then start turn more and more crap out the door.

Its sad that you have to look at one of the lines where a rifle is pulled from the normal production to ensure you are getting a good iron.

Can you get a good SPS, etc? Sure. But you also risk a higher-than-it-used-to-be chance of getting a crap stick. Got one that can barely hold 2 MOA? Well there is no guarantee on the accuracy unless you are buying a 700P or one of the other lines where they are holding it to a full MOA as the standard.

Sad.

 

[flyboy]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In his opinion it is a miracle that a factory built 700 can hold a group at all. He then showed me what he was talking about with a bore scope.
</div></div>

It is actually kind of sad, to be honest. To watch a great brand with a huge amount of history behind it that has turned out a solid performing action in use for decades get bought up by a hedge fund and then start turn more and more crap out the door.

Its sad that you have to look at one of the line where a rifle is pulled from the normal production to ensure you are getting a good iron.

Can you get a good SPS, etc? Sure. But you also risk a higher-than-it-used-to-be chance of getting a crap stick. Got one that can barely hold 2 MOA? Well there is no guarantee on the accuracy unless you are buying a 700P or one of the other lines where they are holding it to a full MOA as the standard.

Sad.

</div></div>

Remember this. 2 moa is still alot better then 99.9% of the Remington customers will ever shoot there rifle. In order to keep the prices down on there production guns there is no need to spend extra money to accurize a rifle that will never be driven to that potential, and by design, price themselves out of a market. Those of use that can shoot and want sub MOA, know what it might take to get it there.

As a side note, having shot hundred of factory rifles with factory ammo and cheep hunting scopes, I can honestly tell you that I've only found 4 or 5 that wouldn't hold 1.5 moa. Thats me being asked to sight a rifle in for some stranger at the range that happens to see me shooting my target, and in using maybe 6 or 7 rounds to get it on target and then shoot a group, those are the results I've seen.

Just because the rifle barrels looks like shit doesn't mean in won't shoot.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

I'm not even so sure about the 700p line anymore. Does anyone know for a fact if Remington has but a guarantee on the accuracy of the 700p?

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not even so sure about the 700p line anymore. Does anyone know for a fact if Remington has but a guarantee on the accuracy of the 700p? </div></div>

I do. Confirmed as of March 2010. They are pulled from production as barreled actions, parkerized, mated with thier stock and then test fired for a 1MOA standard.

Quoting "Daniel" at Remington from the history of incident 100329-000006 :

"The 700P has a true parkerized finish which curged harder than the Black oxide used on the matte black SPS-V. This makes it more durable and less likely to rust or scratching[sic]. The police guns do have the upgraded stock, but there[sic] assembly is different than standard production guns and each one is test fired to make sure it functions perfectly and meets the 1 MOA guarantee. This accuracy guarantee is not in place on the production rifles."

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Got it, will they fix it if it is not shooting 1 moa for the customer as well, ever have to deal with their customer service for such a situation?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USN_Sam1385</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Temperature affects air density."

"The cooler the air, the higher the air density, thus greater resistance. The warmer the air, the lower the air density, so there will be less resistance and your bullet will impact high. For 7.62mm and 308 Win ammunition, use the general rule: First you need to know at what temperature you are zeroed for. L<span style="font-weight: bold">ower your scope's elevation by 1 MOA for every +20 deg F change. Raise the sigh's elevation or bullet impact 1 MOA for ever -20 deg F change.</span>"

From: The Military and Police Sniper, by Mike R. Lau, owner of TBA.

It has probably happened to you several times in 30 years, maybe you just did not notice. </div></div>

That is absolutely, completely and totally incorrect and has been proven as incorrect several times. It's crap that was originally taught in military sniper schools half a century ago and regurgitated over and over again.

But then again, what do I know.

I will concede that temperature affects the burn rage of the powder, but it's far less drastic in current powders (Varget, RE15, etc.) than people like to believe.

I will lay a lot more weight on shooter error than on barrel/atmospheric heat.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jakhamr81</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got it, will they fix it if it is not shooting 1 moa for the customer as well, ever have to deal with their customer service for such a situation? </div></div>

I haven't, no. Honestly couldn't tell you.

If I took a guess, my money would be on them handling it such that you called, open an issue, send it back and let them look at it. If they could find a way to weasel out of it, you are on the hook for shipping back, otherwise they will suggest the solution they want to do.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That is absolutely, completely and totally incorrect and has been proven as incorrect several times. It's crap that was originally taught in military sniper schools half a century ago and regurgitated over and over again.

</div></div>

No dog in this fight either way, but pointing out that in point mass ballistics solver from Applied Ballistics:

Current conditions, 90 deg F, 30.03 InHg, 27% humidity yields an air density of .07207 lb/ft^3

At 500 yards for my particular cartridge I am looking at roughly a 60.78 inch drop in my rifle from a 100 yard zero.

Calculating for a 20 degree temp change, 70 deg F, same barometric pressure, same humidity, yields an air density of .07497 lb/ft^3.

At 500 yards, Mr. Litz' calculator is saying 61.48 inch drop.

A difference of .7 inches at 500 yards. Much less than even SMOA. At 1000, the numbers get way closer and at that point you are looking at about 10 inches at 1000 yards, which is roughly SMOA.

 

[KopfenJager]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

As for the cleaning of a precision rifle. Again, have done strigent and very precise cleaning procedures, logged every patch and brush ect. consintescy was the key idea. Never realy noticed its effect on accuracy, not saying it wasnt there, I just I didnt see it. If your rifle opens up and it hasnt been cleaned in awhile, try cleaning it. personaly if my rifle wont shoot consistently dirty, i dont want it. Agian, knowledge of what YOUR rifle does is much more important than what everybodies elses rifle do.
P.S. coached rifle in Camp Horno 99

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

It's been awhile since I have shot with a 20 degree spread on the same shooting day.

So, using a JBM ballistic calculator:

175gr SMK at 2620

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">59* F</span>,

@1000yards I need 11.5 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">38.7 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">79* F</span>,

@1000yards I need 11.2 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">37.7 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">99* F</span>,

@1000yards I need 10.9 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">36.6 MOA</span>)

However:

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">59* F</span>,

@200yards I need 0.6 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">1.9 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">79* F</span>,

@200yards I need 0.6 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">1.9 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">99* F</span>,

@200yards I need 0.6 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">1.9 MOA</span>)

<span style="font-weight: bold">So do we still think it's a "blanket rule" that we can apply on the fly?</span>

My problem with this rule is it has even been taught in police sniper schools.

This would lead a student to believe that if he zeroed his rifle at 100 yards on a 59* day and he is shooting at 200 yards on a 90* day he is going to have to hold four inches high. This will be a miss for our purposes.

There is a pretty good book out there written by John C. Simpson called "Sniper's Notebook". He is another one who won't believe it unless you can show him the math. He valiantly attempts to kill off some of the old myths. I am getting ready to post a review of his book. I picked it up after speaking with him for awhile during Sniperweek this year.

He addresses the temp myth starting on page 60.

http://www.trgus.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=1

 

[USN_Sam1385]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's been awhile since I have shot with a 20 degree spread on the same shooting day.

So, using a JBM ballistic calculator:

175gr SMK at 2620

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">59* F</span>,

@1000yards I need 11.5 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">38.7 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">79* F</span>,

@1000yards I need 11.2 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">37.7 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">99* F</span>,

@1000yards I need 10.9 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">36.6 MOA</span>)

However:

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">59* F</span>,

@200yards I need 0.6 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">1.9 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">79* F</span>,

@200yards I need 0.6 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">1.9 MOA</span>)

0' ASL, 29.92 inHg, <span style="font-weight: bold">99* F</span>,

@200yards I need 0.6 Mils (<span style="color: #FF0000">1.9 MOA</span>)

<span style="font-weight: bold">So do we still think it's a "blanket rule" that we can apply on the fly?</span>

My problem with this rule is it has even been taught in police sniper schools.

This would lead a student to believe that if he zeroed his rifle at 100 yards on a 59* day and he is shooting at 200 yards on a 90* day he is going to have to hold four inches high. This will be a miss for our purposes.

There is a pretty good book out there written by John C. Simpson called "Sniper's Notebook". He is another one who won't believe it unless you can show him the math. He valiantly attempts to kill off some of the old myths. I am getting ready to post a review of his book. I picked it up after speaking with him for awhile during Sniperweek this year.

He addresses the temp myth starting on page 60.

http://www.trgus.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=1 </div></div>

You make a very good point here, and support it well. I am certainly going to explore this topic further. However, like you, I did think that 1 MOA sounded extremely excessive.

Your evidence indicates that is correct.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Temperature affects air density."

"The cooler the air, the higher the air density, thus greater resistance. The warmer the air, the lower the air density, </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That is absolutely, completely and totally incorrect and has been proven as incorrect several times. It's crap that was originally taught in military sniper schools half a century ago and regurgitated over and over again.</div></div>

Oh. So every flight instructor and physics professor I ever had was insane?

Interesting.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Since I have a little bit of time in the air as well as behind a precision rifle I am well aware of how temperature and humidity affects air density.

I see that you failed to comprehend I was referring to the portion that I emphasized with <span style="font-weight: bold">BOLD TYPE</span>.

Now was your little jab the sole purpose of your post, or do you have something constructive to add?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Not insane, but every pilot worth his salt knows there's not a blanket rule that correlates to Lau's published stuff.

If you want to chase environmental factors one at a time and use them to adjust your firing solution, rock on. If you want to quit diddling around and shoot with more first round hits get yourself a Kestrel that gives Density Altitude values. Keep real world DOPE until you have enough to tweak whatever ballistics program you run to match the actual data you've found with your load then use that in conjuction with your data and rock on.

I've found the latter to be better.





As far as Remington factory barrel problems-with Remington you will either have A) a tube that shoots and doesn't foul too badly, then you can shoot until acccuracy wanes, B) a tube that will shoot but copper fouls horribly and you will need to learn what adresses that best in your rifle for your purposes, or C) you have a rifle that plain won't shoot-in that case, send it back if you bought it new and hope for the best or save your nickels for a real barrel.

The vast majority of LTR's, P(SS)'s, V series, Sendero's and the like will shoot better than their owners right out of the box.
Not so familiar with the SPS line, and would find anyone that expects a budget series to consistently do better than a higher grade from the factory to be a little "touched" to begin with. There are no free lunches.....

 

[aqualung]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

Ref Tubb Final Finish,

See if you can get hold of the latest edition of Rifle magazine for a 5 page article, with borescope pictures.

You might be surprised.

They used a FACTORY barrel to work on.

very informative read.

Neil

 

[buffybuster]

Re: Remington Factory Barrel Problems

The bore doesn't have to be pristine and pretty for it to shoot well. I've come across some real questionable bores that shot very well for what they looked like.......... for about 20-30rds then copper fouled so badly it takes an hour of scrubbing with Sweets to bring them back around.