Replacing the barrel on my Medium weight 14.5 inch run and gun upper

faylix

faylix

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Sep 26, 2024
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#1
Thinking ahead to this summer, I want to replace the barrel on my run and gun upper.

Currently she has an odin works 14.5 pencil barrel in 223 wylde. I'd like to stick with the 223 wylde setup.

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

- V7 14.5 inch barrel in regular weight (interested in them after reading about them here)

- Noveske 14.5 afghan ( expensive but excellent)

- proof - carbon or SS (heard many good things)

- criterion (no first hand knowledge)

- Something from Knights? - I'm no KAC fanboy, I don't even know if you can get just a KAC barrel - but they always do excellent in 3rd party testing.

What am I missing? What other barrels should I look at? Accuracy is great, the ability to run hard and be put away wet is also pretty high on the list. I'll be running an adjustable gas block and probably a surefire comp and blast diverter.

I recently picked up a WOA barrel for my 20" AR and love it. I don't see anything shorter than a 16 inch on WOA's website though.
 
#6
BCP said:
What's wrong with whatever you have right now?
Click to expand...
TonyTheTiger said:
What's wrong with the Odin? I've generally heard good things about them.
For your purposes I'd be looking at a Criterion CORE if I was dead set on a new barrel.
Click to expand...
It's pretty shot out at this point. Served as my summer blaster for close to three years now. For a short period of time it even ran with three holes. It did classes, I used it to advertise our shop, let customers shoot it, my buddies borrowed her for carbine classes.

Don't get me wrong it did excellent service. I even put a 1-10x on it for a while and experimented with it at 200 yards. She did great at everything I asked her to do. I just think it's time to retire her and try something else now.


I like SOLGW, I even have a personal connection with the owner. I just didn't think their barrels were all that special - more broadsword than rapier.

I'm def open to hearing more about them.
 
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#9
I like the criterion barrels. They behave themselves well when the get hot and they're pretty dang accurate. I have two core barrels and two hybrid barrels. Overall, I prefer the hybrid barrels. They hold a tighter group longer and are a smidgen more accurate.

Of course, these days, you could get anything from a wide range of manufacturers and be good to go. My preference for hard use is chrome lined.
 
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#10
V7 barrels are awesome. I have three of them. The two 14.5's started life as 16's. I had them cut to 14.5 and threaded 5/8x24 to maintain a little more metal around the muzzle. Pinned and welded the V7 Furion on both.

The 18" is the least accurate of the three shoots average 10 round groups of 3/4" at 100 yards. Mine all seem to like 77gn Matchkings loaded by every manufacturer that uses them in factory ammo and my 69 gn hand loads keep my bolt guns honest out to 500 yards.

I have had way better luck with V7 than Noveske
 
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#13
While my Criterion Hybrid doesn't shoot as small of groups as my Proof, it does have only a 1-8 with a thick reticle compared to the Proof's 5-22 MOAR-T. It will shoot under an inch for 5 at 100 so I am not unhappy.

Someone else mentioned the Criterion barrels behave and that is my opinion too. I have never run a skinny barrel so can't offer any opinion on the CORE but I won't hesitate to buy another Criterion.

My main reason for the Criterion Hybrid was because I always wanted to try one due to reputation and because you can get a 16" RLGS which mine is. If I wanted a pencil barrel due to mental deficiency, I probably would get the CORE but you can't get a manly RLGS on it.

I have also had a pair of good shooting Odin barrels so they would be on my list if I were undecided.
 
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#14
I wholeheartedly recommend Criterion. I’ve got a good buddy that is just very cheap. When I built him his first AR I gave him a Faxon gunner that I had on for a week before my Criterion arrived. My Hybrid shoots incredibly a couple years later meanwhile his groups are definitely opening up. He shoots ALOT. I will probably end up buying the Criterion Core for him for his birthday and installing it. They make a fantastic run and gun or high use barrel. Mine shoots 0.8 MOA with 77 grain handloads.
 
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#15
Bringing this thread back from the dead rather than creating another one.

I got a great deal on a criterion hybrid 16inch rifle length gas block. I'm still breaking it in but it hasn't had the best accuracy.... maybe 1 - 1.5 moa at 100 yards from a prone rested position. It does shoot super soft and feels great when I'm moving around with it. Ringing steel at 100 yards while standing or moving seems to be pretty easy with this setup.

Now, I've always loved the VLTOR uppers for some reason, and I won a major case recently (a client who suffered a major dog bite at her employers house) so I was thinking of finally treating myself to a proof carbon fiber barrel. I ordered the VLTOR upper receiver and their new rail and.... No matter how much money I made recently, spending $1000 on an AR barrel is a big ask. I got to thinking - can it really be that much better than a white oak barrel?

So.. *record scratch* I ordered a 16" fluted SDM barrel in 223 wylde from white oak with a matching bolt. Less than 1/2 the price.

Now I have to decide, which setup (16" criterion hybrid RLGS vs 16" White Oak SDM fluted MLGS) do I use as a 1x red dot run and gun, and which one do I use as a scout setup with my plxc 1-8x optic?

I'm leaning towards the criterion going in the VLTOR upper and rail and sliding the new white oak in my Larue (semi)monolithic upper and rail. Is that sacrilege?

criterionlarue223wylde.jpeg


Picture of current Scout setup for help:
PLXC 1-8x FFP, Unity mount, anti reflection device and scope caps from 100 concepts.
Larue ultimate upper, adj gas block, RLGS, surefire light and comp, JP captured buffer, SOLGW BCG and Radian ambi CH,
Aero M4E1 Lower receiver, American gold Trigger, Driven arms co grip, b5 stock, bag rider, cheek piece
 
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#17
Of course white oak just called me to say the barrel they thought they had in stock was mislabeled. Now they are gonna rush make me one.

I asked for a rlgs instead of a mid length - anything else I should ask for?
 
#18
faylix said:
Bringing this thread back from the dead rather than creating another one.

I got a great deal on a criterion hybrid 16inch rifle length gas block. I'm still breaking it in but it hasn't had the best accuracy.... maybe 1 - 1.5 moa at 100 yards from a prone rested position. It does shoot super soft and feels great when I'm moving around with it. Ringing steel at 100 yards while standing or moving seems to be pretty easy with this setup.

Now, I've always loved the VLTOR uppers for some reason, and I won a major case recently (a client who suffered a major dog bite at her employers house) so I was thinking of finally treating myself to a proof carbon fiber barrel. I ordered the VLTOR upper receiver and their new rail and.... No matter how much money I made recently, spending $1000 on an AR barrel is a big ask. I got to thinking - can it really be that much better than a white oak barrel?

So.. *record scratch* I ordered a 16" fluted SDM barrel in 223 wylde from white oak with a matching bolt. Less than 1/2 the price.

Now I have to decide, which setup (16" criterion hybrid RLGS vs 16" White Oak SDM fluted MLGS) do I use as a 1x red dot run and gun, and which one do I use as a scout setup with my plxc 1-8x optic?

I'm leaning towards the criterion going in the VLTOR upper and rail and sliding the new white oak in my Larue (semi)monolithic upper and rail. Is that sacrilege?

View attachment 8691640

Picture of current Scout setup for help:
PLXC 1-8x FFP, Unity mount, anti reflection device and scope caps from 100 concepts.
Larue ultimate upper, adj gas block, RLGS, surefire light and comp, JP captured buffer, SOLGW BCG and Radian ambi CH,
Aero M4E1 Lower receiver, American gold Trigger, Driven arms co grip, b5 stock, bag rider, cheek piece
Click to expand...
Heads up that I have a 16” core barrel and Vltor MUR upper and the fit to the upper is very sloppy. Def needs shim/bedding for best accuracy but for R&G you’d be fine
 
#20
faylix said:
Not exactly what I want to hear about a $500 combo.

What ended up working for you?
Click to expand...
Yeah I was pretty bummed. I tried the core barrel in a demo bcm upper (thermofit) and the sloppy Vltor upper and there wasn’t really a difference in accuracy (1.5-2” 10 shot groups at 100 yds with 77 smk handloads) with the same 13” kak handguard. I ended up getting a third upper which was a SOLGW forged and a different barrel -> Craddock RTR 16 inch MK 12 mod H barrel and solgw m89 rail. I’m gonna see how this combo works and I will use the core barrel as a back up/spare. I was getting close to finding an accuracy node for the core barrel so maybe when I have some more time and enough components I will give it another try by bedding it into a spare upper and see if that helps.

Gonna use the Vltor upper on a 6 arc build and use a shim. Once solgw broadsword uppers are back in stock I will swap that in for the Vltor (I want to pair both my SOLGW m89 rails with solgw uppers). Here’s the vltor upper with the PVA Osprey 6 arc barrel:
IMG_3376.jpeg


The below is my best set of groups for the core barrel in about 300 shots:
image_cropper_654CB4C1-7935-4693-BE2A-7C9DCBF28E1B-3576-00000E6F5FC0CE84.jpeg
 
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#21
I tried a range of ammo to try and find what worked for my criterion barrel.

PXL_20250508_170205335.jpg

The type lines up with the target in vertical lines. 100 yards from a prone rested position.

8ab4a7f0-d532-40aa-a211-abb31201f5f9~1.jpg

This was with the Larue Ultimate upper. Going to throw my white oak barrel in there when she comes.

I just ordered one of those hand lapping tools for the ar. Maybe I can make the VLTOR stuff work.

Thats really too bad. I built a rifle for a client a long time ago and loved the look of the VLTOR stuff. I probably should have read up on it before I spent my money on it.
 
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#22
faylix said:
I tried a range of ammo to try and find what worked for my criterion barrel.

View attachment 8691983

The type lines up with the target in vertical lines. 100 yards from a prone rested position.

View attachment 8691984

This was with the Larue Ultimate upper. Going to throw my white oak barrel in there when she comes.

I just ordered one of those hand lapping tools for the ar. Maybe I can make the VLTOR stuff work.

Thats really too bad. I built a rifle for a client a long time ago and loved the look of the VLTOR stuff. I probably should have read up on it before I spent my money on it.
Click to expand...
Nice. Let me know how it goes. I also bought a lapping tool (pacific tool & gauge) that I will use on my builds going fwd as well.

The finish/machine work on the MUR was very nice but to give you an idea of how loose it was, the inner diameter of where the barrel extension slides in measured at 1.003”. This was about a 4 thou delta to the core’s barrel extension diameter. When I slid the core barrel in it was like a hotdog going down a hallway. Keep in mind this is a sample size of one though and I think a shim/bedding would have tightened it up maybe an extra 0.25 to 0.5 inches
 
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#23
faylix said:
Bringing this thread back from the dead rather than creating another one.

I got a great deal on a criterion hybrid 16inch rifle length gas block. I'm still breaking it in but it hasn't had the best accuracy.... maybe 1 - 1.5 moa at 100 yards from a prone rested position. It does shoot super soft and feels great when I'm moving around with it. Ringing steel at 100 yards while standing or moving seems to be pretty easy with this setup.

Now, I've always loved the VLTOR uppers for some reason, and I won a major case recently (a client who suffered a major dog bite at her employers house) so I was thinking of finally treating myself to a proof carbon fiber barrel. I ordered the VLTOR upper receiver and their new rail and.... No matter how much money I made recently, spending $1000 on an AR barrel is a big ask. I got to thinking - can it really be that much better than a white oak barrel?

So.. *record scratch* I ordered a 16" fluted SDM barrel in 223 wylde from white oak with a matching bolt. Less than 1/2 the price.

Now I have to decide, which setup (16" criterion hybrid RLGS vs 16" White Oak SDM fluted MLGS) do I use as a 1x red dot run and gun, and which one do I use as a scout setup with my plxc 1-8x optic?

I'm leaning towards the criterion going in the VLTOR upper and rail and sliding the new white oak in my Larue (semi)monolithic upper and rail. Is that sacrilege?

View attachment 8691640

Picture of current Scout setup for help:
PLXC 1-8x FFP, Unity mount, anti reflection device and scope caps from 100 concepts.
Larue ultimate upper, adj gas block, RLGS, surefire light and comp, JP captured buffer, SOLGW BCG and Radian ambi CH,
Aero M4E1 Lower receiver, American gold Trigger, Driven arms co grip, b5 stock, bag rider, cheek piece
Click to expand...
I don't want to assume anything, so I'm going to ask. Do you have much experience shooting groups with the PLXc?

I can't shoot groups with a chevron to save my life. What you could try is dialing the elevation down 1 mil or 3 moa or so and use the finer crossbar as an aiming point. See if that helps you to be more precise.

My "SPR" is based on a 16" Criterion hybrid midlength barrel. It shoots very well. Although no chronelined barrel that I'm aware of will shoot to match precision standards, Criterion usually shoot very well. Of the six that I have, 4 are stellar and two are just meh.

What I really like about the Criterions is that they keep their composure as they heat up. Yes, I've shot many 3 and 5 round sub MOA groups, but what I find particularly impressive is that it will put 30 successive rounds well into the confines of a 2" target at 100 yards. I'll take a barrel that will shoot into 1.5 moa when it's smokin hot over a barrel that will shoot 3 or 5 shot .5 moa groups, but falls apart when it gets hot.

If you want precision, maybe get a barreled upper from someone that will thermal fit and glue the barrel into a prepped upper. Craddock does good work with Bartlein barrels.

As for Vltor uppers, I've tried a few and none of them impressed me. I jave no aversion to using Loctite 620, but if an upper is sloppy enough that shims will fit, I get another upper.
 
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#24
TonyAngel said:
I don't want to assume anything, so I'm going to ask. Do you have much experience shooting groups with the PLXc?

I can't shoot groups with a chevron to save my life. What you could try is dialing the elevation down 1 mil or 3 moa or so and use the finer crossbar as an aiming point. See if that helps you to be more precise.

My "SPR" is based on a 16" Criterion hybrid midlength barrel. It shoots very well. Although no chronelined barrel that I'm aware of will shoot to match precision standards, Criterion usually shoot very well. Of the six that I have, 4 are stellar and two are just meh.

What I really like about the Criterions is that they keep their composure as they heat up. Yes, I've shot many 3 and 5 round sub MOA groups, but what I find particularly impressive is that it will put 30 successive rounds well into the confines of a 2" target at 100 yards. I'll take a barrel that will shoot into 1.5 moa when it's smokin hot over a barrel that will shoot 3 or 5 shot .5 moa groups, but falls apart when it gets hot.

If you want precision, maybe get a barreled upper from someone that will thermal fit and glue the barrel into a prepped upper. Craddock does good work with Bartlein barrels.

As for Vltor uppers, I've tried a few and none of them impressed me. I jave no aversion to using Loctite 620, but if an upper is sloppy enough that shims will fit, I get another upper.
Click to expand...
Not so much in an accuracy build, but I used the primary arms 1x Chevron optics on a lot of guns that I've run around with.

PXL_20250409_164838995.jpg

This is a test target at 100 yards prone with the plxc that I ran when I had my old Larue barrel. It was shot to hell but it still grouped up pretty well even when heated up.

I really like the plxc for what it is, a light little run and gun optic that can still reach out and touch someone occasionally.

Its certainly no element theos, DNT or Cronus (my other optics) but it has excellent glass and it's very bright.
 
#25
Vltor uppers are nice, but of the several that I've used, none were are a snug fit on a variety of barrels, slip fit at best.

So if you really like Vltor uppers, trueing the face & loctite is your friend.

As for lightweight barrels that shoot well, Wilson Combat barrels shoot well above their price point weight, especially when on sale. Pretty much as good as my Craddock's. And they don't foul.

MM
 
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#26
MontanaMan said:
Vltor uppers are nice, but of the several that I've used, none were are a snug fit on a variety of barrels, slip fit at best.

So if you really like Vltor uppers, trueing the face & loctite is your friend.

As for lightweight barrels that shoot well, Wilson Combat barrels shoot well above their price point weight, especially when on sale. Pretty much as good as my Craddock's. And they don't foul.

MM
Click to expand...
+1 on this. They must make the vltor uppers assuming people will shim/bed the barrel bc they are super loose. I had to add a 1.5 thou shim to my barrel extension before it was tight enough for me to not be able to slide it in by hand (I ended up doing a thermofit with the shim).

I did recently discover that SOLGW Stripped Forged Upper (which you can get for like $117) are thermofit. I think zev might be the OEM for their forged uppers. Excellent finish etc on them.
 
#27
When I built my 6 ARC I used the VLTOR with a Proof carbon barrel The fit was snug but not thermo fit and not sloppy. The barrel slips in and out without too much effort. I didn't even glue it in just to see how it would shoot. I torqued it to 49 ft lbs with a BCM handguard. With factory Hornady 108 ELD its .5-.6 MOA easily on a bench with bipod and rear bag.

My old Centurion 18" MK12 Douglas barrel is slip fit into the receiver (they assembled). With my handloads I have had 5 shot groups in the .3 but its typically .5-.7 with 75/77 loads. That is with their 2 piece free float handguard on the bipod and rear bag from a bench.

It made me rethink all of the things we do to try and squeeze some accuracy out of the gas guns. I think a good barrel and bolt with straight receivers are capable of more than enough accuracy. Or maybe I just got lucky twice.
 
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#28
Bantam1 said:
When I built my 6 ARC I used the VLTOR with a Proof carbon barrel The fit was snug but not thermo fit and not sloppy. The barrel slips in and out without too much effort. I didn't even glue it in just to see how it would shoot. I torqued it to 49 ft lbs with a BCM handguard. With factory Hornady 108 ELD its .5-.6 MOA easily on a bench with bipod and rear bag.

My old Centurion 18" MK12 Douglas barrel is slip fit into the receiver (they assembled). With my handloads I have had 5 shot groups in the .3 but its typically .5-.7 with 75/77 loads. That is with their 2 piece free float handguard on the bipod and rear bag from a bench.

It made me rethink all of the things we do to try and squeeze some accuracy out of the gas guns. I think a good barrel and bolt with straight receivers are capable of more than enough accuracy. Or maybe I just got lucky twice.
Click to expand...
This is true. It very much depends on the use case for the gun and what the definition of “enough accuracy” is. If you want sub moa you will likely need to take out the slop between receiver and extension, enhanced bcg (that prevents carrier tilt), make sure the gas tube doesn’t have too much interference, etc.

I have a factory 14.5” super duty upper that shoots 1 moa with factory and .6 with handloads. It seems like all the tips and tricks mentioned above are less likely to be needed if you don’t have a frakengun. Who knows..
 
#29
Bantam1 said:
It made me rethink all of the things we do to try and squeeze some accuracy out of the gas guns. I think a good barrel and bolt with straight receivers are capable of more than enough accuracy. Or maybe I just got lucky twice.
Click to expand...
My anecdotal experience has kinda led me down the same path. When I first putting AR's together with intentions on making them more accurate I didn't even think about bedding, I was running a WOA barrel, in a standard M4 receiver, a good 2-stage trigger, and running a standard FA BCG. Decent factory match was yielding sub-MOA and that worked for me out to 600 yards. Last year I started doing some parts swaps and logged the data to see if there were any improvements and generally all the configurations shot the same with decent factory match ammo. 16" WOA in a BCM thermofit upper was sub-MOA, an 18" WOA barrel in a bedded Vltor upper was sub-MOA, same 16" barrel in bedded in the Vltor was the same, and same goes for the 18" WOA in the BCM upper. This also includes swapping optics between the configurations and using different handguards so it's not like one really had a leg up on the other one either.

I believe also that a good barrel, good ammunition, and good technique are going to contribute more to accuracy than bedding. My two accuracy focused AR's are bedded, it didn't seem to hurt anything but also doesn't seem to have drastically improved accuracy.
 
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#30
Bantam1 said:
When I built my 6 ARC I used the VLTOR with a Proof carbon barrel The fit was snug but not thermo fit and not sloppy. The barrel slips in and out without too much effort. I didn't even glue it in just to see how it would shoot. I torqued it to 49 ft lbs with a BCM handguard. With factory Hornady 108 ELD its .5-.6 MOA easily on a bench with bipod and rear bag.

My old Centurion 18" MK12 Douglas barrel is slip fit into the receiver (they assembled). With my handloads I have had 5 shot groups in the .3 but its typically .5-.7 with 75/77 loads. That is with their 2 piece free float handguard on the bipod and rear bag from a bench.

It made me rethink all of the things we do to try and squeeze some accuracy out of the gas guns. I think a good barrel and bolt with straight receivers are capable of more than enough accuracy. Or maybe I just got lucky twice.
Click to expand...

What did you think of the Proof carbon fiber?

So far I'm running / have run (223 wyld) :

20'' white oak heavy (best accuracy, 1/2 moa when i do my part)
16'' criterion hybrid (Haven't had the best results, still in break in, finding out what runs best)
16'' Larue stealth barrel (RIP) (Excellent barrel, I shot the shit out of this one for years before I started treating it right and it still lasted for a while)
14.5 Odin works pencil barrel (RIP) (Jack of all trades, master of none)
14.5/16 " Geissele barrels (RIP) (I pretty much just shot the shit out of these, mostly at under 25 yards, and they did good work).
14.5 Rainer mountain barrel (I really liked the fit and finish of this, one of my first "special" barrels and I shot the snot out of it)
20'' Larue stealth barrel (Built to get my buddy into the accuracy game, I end up shooting it more than he does. ALMOST as good as the WOA 20'')

On order:
16'' White oak SDM fluted barrel
14.5'' DDF Noveske afghan

I've never run a proof barrel but I've always been interested in trying one. I'm pretty new to the accuracy game so I've always just shoved the barrel in, torque'd and untorqued it a few times before tightening it down to whatever the instructions said and going with it. Mostly on Aero uppers that I can press the barrel into by hand.

I just purchased a hand lap tool for the upper receiver and some loctite. If its really bad I'll have to get some of that metal wrap to shim it with. The experimentation continues!
 
#33
faylix said:
What did you think of the Proof carbon fiber?
Click to expand...
So far I am happy with it. My buddy built a clone of my rifle using the same barrel and they both shoot identical. So sample of 2 seem to be good to go. I have no other experience with their barrels outside of the 6 ARC I have. I've been let down by other brands like Rainier. Criterion, Geissele and some others make really good chrome lined barrels that are accurate enough for 5.56 carbines. Even my older BCM barrels are 1.5 MOA or less. I vote chrome lined too.
 
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#34
Bantam1 said:
So far I am happy with it. My buddy built a clone of my rifle using the same barrel and they both shoot identical. So sample of 2 seem to be good to go. I have no other experience with their barrels outside of the 6 ARC I have. I've been let down by other brands like Rainier. Criterion, Geissele and some others make really good chrome lined barrels that are accurate enough for 5.56 carbines. Even my older BCM barrels are 1.5 MOA or less. I vote chrome lined too.
Click to expand...
I was never interested in proof until I learned that the GBRS run their knights SR15's stock - except for replacing the barrel with a proof carbon fiber one.

If DJ thinks they are better than knights im willing to pay attention.
 
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