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Range Report Rifle shoots better at longer range?

ronas

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 28, 2010
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Charleston, South Carolina
Is it unusual for rifle to shoot better at 600 and 800 yards than at 100 yards. In other words sometimes I can shoot smaller moa at 600 and 800 yards than at 100 or even 200 yards?

In all situations conditions are very nearly the same. With the conditons being very good. No mirage and very little if any wind.

Rifle is TRG-22, load is 175 SMK, 45gr of varget, Lapua Palma brass, CCI 450 primer, brass neck sized only with base of cartridge to bullet ogive having measurement of 3.225 inches.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I have a remington 700 in 300 WSM that does same thing.
Almost sold it after frustrating groups at 100 yds. Best was 1.5" groups.
Was shooting at 500 yards one day and had the 300 WSM with me -was amazed it shot sub 5" groups consistently. Needless to say decided to keep the rifle.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

Here was my best group of the day with that 300 WSM - 4 shots at 380 yards. I was too chicken to shoot a 5th round. Definitely subMOA:
target.jpg
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

Yeah that is a little strange. I would say something would need to be looked at. BUT if you keep shooting groups like that at distance I would admit its a accurate rifle.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

This is not an uncommon occurrence. There are tons of threads on here about "Bullets going to sleep" Use google or the search and you can read all about it.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

thought i read something somewhere that some bullets are still trying to stabilize at shorter ranges
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

You read and understood correctly.

Just because your ammo shoots well at 100yds doesn't mean it will perform as well at distance. The inverse can be true as well, as the OP is seeing with his results.

TRG's are well known for their accuracy.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I've felt that this happens for me with my 338LM where my 100 yard groups weren't so great, but then my 1000+ yard hits were pretty accurate. But then as I shot the rifle more, my 100 yard groups tightened up too, so for myself I am still climbing the learning curve on this question of short vs long range performance.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I have a VERY hard time accepting the fact that a bullet will deviate from it's line of path in a spiraling motion and then uniformly always come back to the original line of path after 100 yards.

I accept the fact that the bullet will spiral around it's axis. But I don't buy in to the whole bullet settling down after a given distance (other than along it's axis). I have no doubt that there is some lateral movement. But there is no way a bullet is going to deviate in a spiraling motion over an inch in all directions, and then suddenly end up back on it's original flight path.

That being said, I've seen tighter groups at distance than at 100 yards (in relation to MOA). Why that is beyond me. My first inclination is the person behind the rifle. Or I've heard it could be a parallax issue.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

Not sure it makes sense to me that shooter error would explain worse groups at closer range? Are you saying that the shooter is putting more care into the longer range shots maybe?
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nfoley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not sure it makes sense to me that shooter error would explain worse groups at closer range? Are you saying that the shooter is putting more care into the longer range shots maybe?
</div></div>

That could be it. It could be the shooter getting wrapped around the axle with your 100 yard group since you can actually see the holes. I've read a post where even Bryan Litz couldn't really explain it. But most people will agree that it does happen.

I just can't imagine that a bullet is going to be swirling around a two inch diameter circle at 100 yards and then suddenly go back to it's original flight path uniformly every time.

Or some have said it's not having your parallax set correctly.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

It is usually related to what type of bullets you are using and what twist your barrel is and of course velocity. Some bullets stabilize further out than others especially vld.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I'd put my money parallax before I'd attribute the phenomenon to ballistics (if Brian Litz can't explain it, I sure won't try), or shooter error (considering they do so well further out).

Parallax is wrong if you can wag/nod the head behind the scope and the reticle tends to follow the eye across the target face.

Adjust the parallax until they stay stuck together. I call this a 'reticle weld', and consider it, and cheek weld, to be related, critical issues.

Some hunting scopes do not have a parallax adjustment, and are corrected for parallax at an arbitrary distance, often around 200yd. This can also be a reason why shooters sometimes do better at 200 (and beyond) than closer.

This is also a reason why I tend to avoid hunting shots at distances considerably further than 200yd. Parallax can make you think you have a reliable sight picture when you really don't. Remember, if the wag/nod shows a parallax discrepancy, what you see may not be what you get.

Greg
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

Parallax being the possible cause is something so easily over looked that I hadn't considered it. You may have hit on it, Greg.

Many of the shooters I've run into don't really know how to adjust out the parallax. They either 'focus' with the control or set it at infinity and think they're good to go.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

Are you shooting a 100 yds at a high magnification on you scope, some people myself included get too much information at high mag. at 100 and start steering the shot rather than breaking the shot. Might sound a little strang but I can shoot tighter ar 12x than 25x. Same day same load same gun, a mental thing, might be worth a try along with parallax ajustment.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I agree 100% with Unsichtbar. I've noticed the exact same thing... I've tried the 25 power thing at 100 yards... I thought I knew what paralax was, but I was WAY off track. Now I shoot at minimum power and have the paralax adjustment set, PROPERLY. My groups are easily 30-40% smaller on average.

I also agree with the idea that at further distances, you would have slightly tighter groups from the MOA stand point. I know I tend to, but that's because I "knuckle down" when I get out there... It's a bad mind set, but I'm working on it!
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd put my money parallax before I'd attribute the phenomenon to ballistics (if Brian Litz can't explain it, I sure won't try), or shooter error (considering they do so well further out).

Parallax is wrong if you can wag/nod the head behind the scope and the reticle tends to follow the eye across the target face.

Adjust the parallax until they stay stuck together. I call this a 'reticle weld', and consider it, and cheek weld, to be related, critical issues.

Some hunting scopes do not have a parallax adjustment, and are corrected for parallax at an arbitrary distance, often around 200yd. This can also be a reason why shooters sometimes do better at 200 (and beyond) than closer.

This is also a reason why I tend to avoid hunting shots at distances considerably further than 200yd. Parallax can make you think you have a reliable sight picture when you really don't. Remember, if the wag/nod shows a parallax discrepancy, what you see may not be what you get.

Greg </div></div>

+1. This is a parallax issue somtimes influenced by concentration/magnification as others have opined.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

It's fairly easy to prove out. Set your 800 yard target and get the rifle setup on it. Place a target of very thin paper, like tissue paper, at 100 yards on the trajectory line, you'll see your 800 yard target below the bottom edge of the 100 yard paper.

Shoot your 800 yard group. Your 100 yard group will never be angularly larger than the 800 yard group, in fact, it will normally be fractionally smaller.

The real problem is most people simply never see what the same group is like in both places. Unless you look at a lot of Doppler data, or have multiple acoustic targets, you just presume that the great groups you get at 800 would somehow have been a larger group at 100. Most shooter 'warm up' at 100 before they shoot further out, so they simply shoot better by the time they shoot the 800 yard group. Start cold and shoot three groups at 800, then three at 100 and report back. That's another simple test, though not as concrete as the dual groups.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's fairly easy to prove out. Set your 800 yard target and get the rifle setup on it. Place a target of very thin paper, like tissue paper, at 100 yards on the trajectory line, you'll see your 800 yard target below the bottom edge of the 100 yard paper.

Shoot your 800 yard group. Your 100 yard group will never be angularly larger than the 800 yard group, in fact, it will normally be fractionally smaller.

The real problem is most people simply never see what the same group is like in both places. Unless you look at a lot of Doppler data, or have multiple acoustic targets, you just presume that the great groups you get at 800 would somehow have been a larger group at 100. Most shooter 'warm up' at 100 before they shoot further out, so they simply shoot better by the time they shoot the 800 yard group. Start cold and shoot three groups at 800, then three at 100 and report back. That's another simple test, though not as concrete as the dual groups. </div></div>

Although a very interesting test, this approach as you described it alone will not reveal the differential effects of parallax at short and long range, which are one likely cause of larger groups at short(er) distances than longer. As you pointed out, it will, however, show that the projectiles don't "stabilize" at longer distances and produce smaller groups.

If you could also get the targets set up so that you were actually using the 100 yd paper as the POA when firing for one set, yet still hit the 800 yd target, then you would be able effectively compare the group spreads at each distance fired using both both the shorter and longer POAs to see how parallax could cause larger groups at short range as compared to long range. Of course, that would presume that passing through the paper didn't affect the projectile POI at the longer range.

Another possibly simpler way to test the effect of parallax at short vs long range would be to set two targets up at 100 yd. For one target, use it as the POA when firing. For the other, set the scope/rifle up as if you were shooting at a much longer range and use another target or specific object as the POA. The 2nd target at 100 yd would still have to be set up so that it was the POI when using the longer range POA. If parallax was the culprit, this test should reflect that. Anyhow, very interesting test, thanks for posting it.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I believe there is frequently less aiming error at long range than near. Target type and size, reticle, magnification, etc. can have an impact on groups at any range. As an extreme example, I routinely shoot smaller moa groups at 300 yds with an Aimpoint than at 100 when shooting at an IPSC target.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a VERY hard time accepting the fact that a bullet will deviate from it's line of path in a spiraling motion and then uniformly always come back to the original line of path after 100 yards.

I accept the fact that the bullet will spiral around it's axis. But I don't buy in to the whole bullet settling down after a given distance (other than along it's axis). I have no doubt that there is some lateral movement. But there is no way a bullet is going to deviate in a spiraling motion over an inch in all directions, and then suddenly end up back on it's original flight path.

That being said, I've seen tighter groups at distance than at 100 yards (in relation to MOA). Why that is beyond me. My first inclination is the person behind the rifle. Or I've heard it could be a parallax issue. </div></div>

after some basic understanding of science/physics, logic would require a different explanation than dispersion from POA followed by re-converging on the point of aim after a certain distance. When I see public posts that defy simple science I want to get some more people back to school to get what they missed the first time like I am doing
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

A lot of good technical analysis here but I have to go with a simple "aim small, miss small" theory. At longer ranges the human factor becomes more visible and I think concentration is improved instinctively.

Despite trying to center the crosshairs, I notice a difference in group size between shooting at a 1" bull and when I make a 3/8" dot at close range (under 200 yards) and depending on the target i would guess the average bullseye represents a decreased radius at the greater distances vs what may be used for a short range target. Coupled with increased concentration that seems to come with taking long shots and that is where I will put my money.

That a bullet will tighten its flight path downrange seems to defy physics.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a VERY hard time accepting the fact that a bullet will deviate from it's line of path in a spiraling motion and then uniformly always come back to the original line of path after 100 yards.

I accept the fact that the bullet will spiral around it's axis. But I don't buy in to the whole bullet settling down after a given distance (other than along it's axis). I have no doubt that there is some lateral movement. But there is no way a bullet is going to deviate in a spiraling motion over an inch in all directions, and then suddenly end up back on it's original flight path.

That being said, I've seen tighter groups at distance than at 100 yards (in relation to MOA). Why that is beyond me. My first inclination is the person behind the rifle. Or I've heard it could be a parallax issue. </div></div>

after some basic understanding of science/physics, logic would require a different explanation than dispersion from POA followed by re-converging on the point of aim after a certain distance. When I see public posts that defy simple science I want to get some more people back to school to get what they missed the first time like I am doing </div></div>


What would be your explanation for it?
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I used to put much credence into things like spiral paths. I do it less now.

Greg
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I accept the fact that the bullet will spiral around it's axis. But I don't buy in to the whole bullet settling down after a given distance (other than along it's axis). I have no doubt that there is some lateral movement. But there is no way a bullet is going to deviate in a spiraling motion over an inch in all directions, and then suddenly end up back on it's original flight path.</div></div>

In fact, if the bullet runs down a spiral path larger in diameter than 1/2 its own caliber, it is unconditionally unstable.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

Some heavier rounds shoot better groups at greater distances because of the bullets trajectory. For example we zero our 50 cal barrets at 300 due to the fact 300 is just too close to get groups because of the bullets flight paths.

that being said it could be a prallax issue? definately something to look into. its an easy test that could potentially fix your problem
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I think it has to do with stability and nutation of the bullet in flight. As the bullet starts out of the end of the barrel it is traveling at a high velocity. It isn't spinning like a drill bit but also nutating. If you could watch the nose spin, you would see a pattern like a spirograph toy
smile.gif
Needless to say the nutation is great as the velocity is great. As the projectile looses velocity its RPM also slow decreasin the spread of nutation.

I'd recommend trying a heavier bullet for all around better performance, or decreasing your powder charge with the current bullet if you want groups at closer range. But just a theory IMHO.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

In my experience, this is simple shooter error. I find shooting small at 600 to be much easier than the same feat at 100. I don't know what kind of long range targets you are shooting at, but shooting at steel is just easier and more relaxing. You expect some dispersion, so when you experience it, you simply move on with your next shot. 100 yards on paper can be a mind f$&@k!

Without a doubt my smallest groups MOA wise have been fired between 600-900 yards. I mean .1-.2 moa for a few shots, something I NEVER do at 100 on paper.

Most importantly though, stop shooting groups. If you are hitting your target, just move on to the next one, or get further away, or change your position.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ronas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it unusual for rifle to shoot better at 600 and 800 yards than at 100 yards. In other words sometimes I can shoot smaller moa at 600 and 800 yards than at 100 or even 200 yards?</div></div>It's not strange, it's called happenstance. It's not an indication of anything. What you and your rifle can predictably do on demand, day in and day out, is what counts. If you don't shoot well at 100 yards you need to work on the fundamentals.
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ColoWyo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a VERY hard time accepting the fact that a bullet will deviate from it's line of path in a spiraling motion and then uniformly always come back to the original line of path after 100 yards. </div></div>

I really agree with this statement. I suck at shooting 100 yard groups. With 20+ power magnification, I'll inadvertently start walking my crosshairs to the POI instead of aiming at the same spot, screwing up a group. When I have a rifle built, I do the load work, but have someone shoot my groups. When the load is found, that will be the last 100 yard group the gun shoots till I change the load, if ever.

I've shot some amazing groups at distance, it is just easier for me, because I will concentrate on the POA more than at 100 yards.Those targets with 12 or so little circles, or the smack the smiley would be way more beneficial for me to shoot at 100.
Fundamentals or not, I guess I will never be a 100 yard benchrest champion!
 
Re: Rifle shoots better at longer range?

I cannot shoot a small group at 100 yards for the life of me on high mag. I always back it way down. And always, make sure you adjust that parallax out for any range you are shooing. When I pay attention to these things, my 100 yard groups nearly transfer perfectly out to the same MOA size at 300. It isn't until weather starts taking hold at 600 that I usually see a larger average group.