Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

[Ratbert]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pete.

Invest in someone to re-do your website or just 'extend' it with an extra tool or two.

Build in a tool which shows the status of what parts are relevant to the order.

Get a part in, update the tool.

Your customers can look in the tool any time and see when the last update on thier order was and what notes/status information is in the tool.

Takes you 2 seconds to update when you recieve a part, and could save you a lot of phone calls and community grief. </div></div>

OddBall,

Can you honestly list 3 other custom rifle makers that have this feature?

Josh</div></div>

Just because no one has done it yet doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. I mean, look at Amazon, there's absolutely no reason one of the major book dealers couldn't have done it years before they came around but they didn't.

 

[keithtb1]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

I think getting on the hide and posting yourself may have just saved your business. Having people here to defend your name and product line is great but hearing it from the horses mouth so to speak is what makes customers happy. Knowing the time it takes to get a superior rifle is worth the wait if they know going into it the true wait time. 4 to 6 months sounds great but maybe they didn't here the part about from when I received all parts. If I knew it could take 2 to 3 years and it was the only rifle I had I might have gone in a different direction. Had a similar situation with RWS here. They told me two weeks to re-barrel a rifle and the job took 4 months. The work was superb and the rifle shoots better than it ever did, but I might have gone a different way (probably purchased a new rifle) and then after the shooting season had it re-barreled and kept it as a spare. I never once called them because my partner was very familiar with them (DKSD39) and let me know it would be worth the wait. Like your customers, they know a good thing when they see it, just would like a more realistic turn around time.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

Ratbert,

I wasn't saying it wasn't a good idea. It surely is. However, the difference in monetary resources between Amazon and these companies are vast. I would love to see it happen, but was pointing out the fact that I know of no one in the industry that does it.

Josh

 

[Sudinim]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

I first heard of Petes business on here, the Hide, and he was being slated then about delivery time. However, having mailed and spoken to him, I placed an order for a full custom build.

The delivery date came and past, Pete kept me in the loop.....he's suffered some personal issues that none of us would like to deal with, and again, he kept me in the loop.....

The time of the build has stretched out, and yeah, its tough to deal with but he's kept me in the loop....throughout.

Myh rig will be ready soon, great and Im sure when it arrives it'll be all I hoped for....

And as for all the delays ? So, I'll certainly be ordering from Pete again because, so far, he's been fair and honest with me, even if its taken far longer than expected.

As soon as the rig arrives, I'll post pics and a range report.

 

[rman1]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

I honestly think the Americans on this forum have no clue how difficult it is, and how long it can take, to get quality, American made parts, outside of America. The US government has put down some fairly rediculous export bans on most anything that can be bolted, screwed, or glued, to a rifle. Export permits are required to get them out of the country. Once an export permit is required by the USA, most other countries, by agreement, require an import permit. These processes can take months. Most domestic manufactures see this as a giant hassle, and no longer export parts. Thus, parts have to be shipped through brokers. This is a lengthy and time comsuming process. Not bashing anyone, but this shit takes time!

R.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the difference in monetary resources between Amazon and these companies are vast.</div></div>

Sure, Amazon is HUGE now. But when it was first getting started it just took any online orders and spat them out on a dot-matrix printer sitting in their shipping warehouse.

Technology ideas don't have to be the latest high-speed "smarter planet" IBM commercial to work. Just a quick note typed up in notepad and uploaded to his website listing status updates of every project in the queue once a week would probably do worlds of good for customer relations. That way, even if THEIR project hasn't progressed, customers can see if/when he is working on SOMETHING and know that he hasn't just run off to Mexico with their money.

I'm speaking in generalities here, no intent to imply anything about Roedale by this...

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

Oddbal6, thats exactly what we have done, using a version of a webshop section, its possible to have folks log in and see build status just like looking at a shopping chart and the update system that works on the webshop.
I haven't the time to put excisting builds in there, so existing orders just have to muddle along like we have,
but any series custom, that isn't ready off the shelf, or wants some options non standard will get a log in and be able to follow, it works both ways as its also very easy for me to check status on and update when parts arrive.

Rman1 i second everything you said.

luckily the German government binned the requirement of having to have an import permit, i can import any firearms part so long as its not classed "weapon of war" on the strength of my manufacturers and dealers license, but convincing the export side of that fact is yet another hurdle, because the German authorities will not issue a letter or statement, as its Quote" it is zee German law, we do not hav to make zee letter to verify what zee law sagen !"

Top and bottom of the whole issue is that we have already long since recognised the problem areas within my business and have been taking steps to improve in every which way we can. Rome wasn't built in a day and it is taking more time than i would like, but still, despite all the set backs, Ive been leading the field as far as progress in the EU custom rifle industry is concerned now for a while, we have achieved many firsts over the last couple of years are aim to leading the field in the future too.
Coms and service may not be as I would like, but once the time consumed by chasing supply and explaining why its not arrived yet stops, then the whole thing will get a breath of fresh air.

Rest assured Roedale is alive and kicking, so just keep your eyes open for our next new product, and bear with me whilst i get these delayed one of a kind builds put together one after the other.

regards Pete

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rman1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I honestly think the Americans on this forum have no clue how difficult it is, and how long it can take, to get quality, American made parts, outside of America. The US government has put down some fairly rediculous export bans on most anything that can be bolted, screwed, or glued, to a rifle. Export permits are required to get them out of the country. Once an export permit is required by the USA, most other countries, by agreement, require an import permit. These processes can take months. Most domestic manufactures see this as a giant hassle, and no longer export parts. Thus, parts have to be shipped through brokers. This is a lengthy and time comsuming process. Not bashing anyone, but this shit takes time!

R. </div></div>

If only they knew how ridiculous it was. I've had US businesses refuse in recent times, to send me scope rings, or a scope base - because they're apparently export restricted. Who's going to waste time going through a 6 month process where the snoughts in the trough at DoS tax the hell out of the poor old US supplier and take fucking months to provide an export permit - for minor, <span style="font-weight: bold">non-functioning</span> parts and expect an import permit from the receiving country to boot. ITAR has been carried beyond an absolute joke into the realms of the kafka-esque. I mean, shit, my gunsmith down here had Kelbly's refuse to send him a replacement action screw without an export permit. I really hope that US businesses never have to rely on any export trade.

What burns me up is that, as an Australian, I can turn up to a US sponsored punch-up (as we Aussies and others always do, and I have), have strange people try to shoot holes in us and then have every impediment dreamed up by robotic bureaucrats placed in the way of us buying your gear - and those clowns all work for the same government who asked us to show up in the first place! All I can say is - gee, thanks but can you please kiss me first next time?

Gngngngngngn...

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

Who's ranting now eh !!

exporting is a pain in the ass. it must be a right royal pain in the ass from the USA.
What bugs the hell out of me is that as a dealer one gets very little discount from US vendors, 10% is usual, 15% is tops. Most want to go through a broker, so you get wacked for postage to the broker, wacked for his 15% and wacked for the fees, wacked for the postage then to germany,so by the time the item has left the USA, you are already paying more than standard US retail.

then when it arrives you get wacked for the 2.5 to 5 % import tax, plus the 19% VAT which is paid in cash at the customs.
It has to be picked up, which is a 15 mile round trip, and takes usualy 1/2 a day due to the wait at the customs office for the little chineese lady who has imported 1000 towels with dragon logos, or the hot russian chick who has imported 1000 sets of slinky looking underwear who always seem to be one infront in the queue ( I always try to go when the russian chicks are there

Then when you add a little profit, the end customer here moans like hell because the same item costs X amount in the USA..

oh well. at least it arrived this time.

Then we have to fill in an import report that goes back to the customs.

The situation is caused by buroctrats with thier bright ideas.
is confounded by manufacturers who haven't the time to bother with it and this makes its a general right royal pain in the backside to get parts made in the USA to anywhere outside the USA. It makes every non US based gunsmiths life a mysery if they rely on US made parts, which most do.


Exporting from here (germany)to anywhere in the world ( exept embargoes countries) is fairly straight forward.
we need an export permit for any rifle part exept a picatinny rail.
For the usual countries that turn up to our joint venture punch ups we do not require an End User certificate unless the value is above 5000€.

Applying for an export permit is done on line, takes about 10 minues if Geoff does it and about 30 if i do it. its then sent electronicaly to the BAFA. A printed copy is also sent to the BAFA vial normal mail.
They sit on it for between 2 weeks, and if its a former soviet block curtain country and we apply during peak holiday season, peak carnival season and then some one goes sick, gets pregnant it can take up to 2 months. generaly 2 to 4 weeks see's it done unless they get swamped and then they post us the export permit back.

Then we have to do an online customs declaration, which is also sen online , with a printed copy then bieng taken ( on a friday by Geoff) along with the items to be exported to our local customs office for scrutiny and another official stamp, the customs office is on the other side of the city.
Depending on who is staffing the export office Geoff maybe gone 1/2 a day ( they have 3 speeds, slow, stop and backwards ha ha) then we bring all the paperwork home, package up the kit and send it.
Its worth our while, and does actualy run smoothly 99% or the time.
Still I view it as unnessecary burocracy,

Buroctrats the world over are getting in the way of honest men making and honest buck.
so much for globalisation

Pete

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: Roedale Precision - does it still exist?

Yes, it was something of a rant...but it felt so good, for about a minute until I realised nothing would change.

Gngngngngngngn...

 

[700X7.62]

European Vacations

Maybe if you guys did not take 90 vacation days a year and get two years off for having a baby and constant leaves of absence you could get a little more done huh? Between all your bank holidays, vacations, and 8-beer lunches I could never figgure out how workers in EU Nations accomplished anything.

 

[tansinator]

Re: European Vacations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FNF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe if you guys did not take 90 vacation days a year and get two years off for having a baby and constant leaves of absence you could get a little more done huh? Between all your bank holidays, vacations, and 8-beer lunches I could never figgure out how workers in EU Nations accomplished anything.</div></div>

...laffin

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

FNF.
if you yanks supplied us a bit faster we wouldn't have to take so many days off eh !!

joking aside

the social state wasn't my idea and it means hard working folk like myself have to work double to keep the rest of the slackers fed and clothed.I think that recievers of social benefit payments should be required to clean roads, ditches and public areas and help out in old folks homes etc. 2 years maternity leave is difficult for an employer, but good for Mother and child.
The high taxes here pay for the social state. 19% VAT, and income tax and other social security payments total up to between 40% and 45%. that sucks !

I personaly have constantly worked 2 jobs since comming to Germany as a soldier in 1990. Firstly I worked loading trucks up for DPD at a logistics depot, then repairing and valeting cars at a NATO car sales place, then as a Gunsmith for a local gun shop. All in addition to serving in Her Majesties Green Machine.
After leaving the Green Machine I worked for a short time as a labourer still gunsmithing as a side line for the shop. That was my wind down and adjust to civilian life, get the crap out my system phase. I then got a proper job working as an Engineer for a Defence Industry contractor (and still part time as a gunsmith) I then transfered to the European Space Agency as my main job, did some hunt guiding and outfitter work for a time as a side line before setting up my own part time riflesmith business.Hell even when I was at school I worked for my Dad farming, and when stationed in the UK I like many soldiers ( because they didn't pay us enough back then) worked part time driving taxis, busses, trucks, working as a doorman or bouncer or even washing up and serving in a restraunt.Even before joining the Army I worked for my Dad farming full time, and worked part time helping out on neighbouring farms, Since December 2008 for the first time in my life I've only had one job! fulltime own business and I don't think Ive ever worked as many hours before as in the last 2 years. the German word for self employed is selbstständig. selbst = self and ständig = constantly and that about sums it up eh..

right back to work, the engraver is through with its run.

Pete



Germans get on average 26 to 30 days holiday, thats 6 weeks per year. and maybe 6 or 7 actual bank holidays. Whilst I was employed status I recieved an extra weeks holiday because of my veteran status, which I think is a good idea for vets( also get 50% reduction on road tax for my car)

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: European Vacations

Pete, there has been one heck of a lot of good points brought out here.

One of the most profound, from your end, is the "Time to Build" statement that included "WHEN ALL NECESSARY PARTS ARRIVE" as a start point. Not the perceived "I first phoned you about a build, a week ago. Ergo, you should be one week into it already, right?"

The second, though, is the US NannyState Department. Their ITAR rules should actually be called ISTOP rules.

As a Canuck, there are quite a number of problems that this builds. For so long, we have been "open neighbors" and anything we needed or wanted could be obtained quickly through one venue or another. (I'm talking legally, ie Post, Broker, UPS, drive down across the line, venues like that) Now, things are so darn different that it's stupid.

There's one particular company that's "half-way to backwards" to which they don't even accept calls from Canucks. When dialed, the call is re-routed and dropped.

I like to see us as Allies, even though we had a freaking idiot 'at the wheel' who didn't listen to any other Canuck, let alone the majority. Point is though, we are on the same side. For the US to inhibit so much Trade on goods and whatnot is definitely not conducive to progress. And at a time where they are needing to "ramp up production venues". Instead, let's let them close their own doors. In some cases, anyways. (their own view, not ours)

I for one, commend you for persevering. Even more for going the format that you are. As has been alluded to earlier, you can't make everyone happy. And you practically only hear from those who aren't. Right?

Keep on keeping on, and let us know how your son's doing with his apprenticeship, sometime. Good news is worth bragging about.



And I wouldn't blame you though, for re-iterating to some IN CRAYON the fact that the build time starts when the actual PARTS ARRIVE. We wouldn't want them to hurt themselves with pointy parts that could be toxic when eaten. Like a pen. Soft wax crayons are only crunchy for a little while, I'm told.

 

[SurgeonPredator]

Re: European Vacations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As has been alluded to earlier, you can't make everyone happy. And you practically only hear from those who aren't. Right?</div></div>

This is not true, sadly. Even if someone starts a thread about his positive experiences with Pete/Roedale, someone jumps in and starts what is known as "Pete bashing" in Germany.

I am a proud and happy owner of an awesome Roedale rifle, but I did not post a review on the german forums, because it would end in a depressing display of bad behaviour towards Pete.

It is sad that this attitude was exported, also. Without any export restrictions

I wish you all the best for your future development and more respect and understanding from your customers.


If I happen to find a pot of gold, I would be honoured if you'd build me another rifle with your new inventions (since you don't build full customer spec'd rifle anymore).

Cheers!

Andreas

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Sean thank you..

Andreas. there are a lot of jealouse people about, there are a lot of nasty people about. There is a lot of Auslanderfeindlichkeit ( racism ). And through my direct nature and not suffering fools ive not only made friends.

Because I am the only riflesmith in Germany offering the absolute total custom build, take your choice of anything ( or was offering) and the idea is new, it is also not fully understood. You know the typical mentality that exsists among your country men.

Instead of bieng happy that someone is over the moon with the work or rifle he has just had completed. some feel jealouse and moan like hell because thiers isnt ready yet. irrelevant of the time span.


you see posts on here..


"my new rifle from riflesmith X has arrived. .....looks great, cant wait to shoot it"

next guy will post " nice looking stick, post some pics of the groups,. can't wait to get mine, I'm having such and such spec built"

and so it carries on in a happy, like a kid waiting for christmas way.


in Germany it would be:

"I just recieved my new rifle... looks great, cant wait to shoot it, "

next 3 guys would post,

" when did you order it,( was it ordered before mine?)
what did you pay for it (was it cheaper than mine?)
why wasn't mine delivered before his ( i hate him !)"

whilst all 3 would be simultaneosly thinking if i moan enough maybe I will get some freebee's


Fact of the matter is. a rifle is a set of components assembled together. one part is missing, rifle isn't finnished. when folk can understand that its not as simple as pulling a rabbit out of a top hat, things will get easier,.

Pete

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Some times its good to step back and take a look, and once again this thread has given me the oppertunity to do just that. So a little contemplation was in order. I manage that best when i'm away from it all in the woods. So a couple of hours with rifle, binoculars and dog where in order. We went out onto the military training area last evening and within a few minutes of bieng where I wanted to be and calling (ts the middle of the Roe Buck rut here)the 139gr bullet smacked home with a thud into the boilder room of a nice 6point Roebuck. After gralloching him and hanging him via his antlers in a tree to drip out. I sat down and started to contemplate the last couple of years.

Ive created quite a stir on the German rifle scene, indeed the European rifle scene over the last years. some good, some bad. and when thinking about the reasons customers have to complain, it comes right back to parts supply every single time.
Parts dont arrive on time = Customers build is delayed.
Customers Build delayed = Customer wants running commentry on the progress to get the parts.
Customer wants running commentry on progress to get the parts = Time spent chasing manufacturer X, supplier X, exporter/broker X, courier X and customs.
Time spent chasing manufacturer X, supplier X, exporter/broker X, courier X and customs. = Time invested unnesseceraly.
Time invested unnesseceraly = Less time for communication and the actual task of building rifles.
Less time for communication and the actual task of building rifles = more delays and more requirement for communication - updates, more micro management.
More delays and more requirement for communication - updates, more micro management = Less time for communication and the actual task of building rifles.
And so the circle begins.

Couple of things can be done at this point:

1.We can all accept that the firearms industry is slow, cumbersome, difficult and frustrating for whatever reason, be it burocracy or whatever. Shrug our shoulders and put up with it.

2.Customers can complain all day and all night in all shape and form about thier riflesmith and the delayed build. The riflesmith can worry about it, loose sleep over it, do his best to chase it all up and get it all sorted asap. But no amount of moaning and chasing will change the fact that a part not delieverd or a part delivered late, for whatever reason is the cause of the evil.

3. The supply chain can be given a good hard luck at and solutions can be found.

Route 3 is the one I chose to take quite a while back, but things don't change over night, and Rome wasn't built in a day.

I sat there contemplating the achievements over the last couple of years and the amount of products we have brought onto the market within the last 2 years and to be honest when you add that to the some where in the region of 200+ rifles the enormity of what has been achieve becomes, atleast to me apparent. Most of the products or accessories have been realised to to the difficulty in obtaining parts from elsewhere, either the parts where difficult to aquire, or simply didn't excist yet.
I'f you guys don't mind I'll make a little list.

<span style="font-weight: bold">RCS chassis Systems</span>. 3 rifle action inlets, 7 more in progress.
<span style="font-weight: bold">RCS II</span>, upgrade to RCS with own plastic and rubber parts.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Raptor chassis system:</span> modular rifle stock, several inlets, folding, fixed and telescopic models, shortly to be marketed
<span style="font-weight: bold">Magazine Systems: </span> Howa 1500,Tika T3, Remington 700, more in progress
<span style="font-weight: bold">Bolt Handles / knobs:</span> several types
<span style="font-weight: bold">Bipods:</span> TRG, AI, Versa spigot, 4 types
<span style="font-weight: bold">Picatinny Rails:</span> Howa S /L, Rem700 S/L, Tikka T3, Sako
<span style="font-weight: bold">Muzzle brakes:</span> 8 variations on the 1 design. the design bieng thr product of my input, tested and developed further by theUNiversity oif applied science in a 6 month dipolma study.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Mirrage bands</span>: several types
<span style="font-weight: bold">Barrel clamps and action wrenches:</span> several types
<span style="font-weight: bold">Recoil lug</span>s: rem 700

add to that little list that we are Germany's leading suppressor manufacturer. Delta suppressors where also developed in conjunction with the University of applies science and are the result of 30+ years of firearms experience a year long R&D diploma study.

I wont mention rifle action developement work.

all of the above born out of the fact that I recognise the need to fill the gaps in the supply chain. and nearly all of it in the last 2 years.
Added to that, I built my own workshop with my own 2 hands.

So despite all the set backs, like supply problems and few personal issues, thats one hell of a list of achievements for a company that is 5 years old, was started in an old garage with 3000 pounds borrowed from a mate as a part time one man band, was run for 3 years part time and then for the last 2 years full time, and now has a team of 4 people, plus my wife and my son who help out. ( son is engraving suppressors right now)

I need not mention consultancy work for other companies that has also been done, or the current involvement on a bullpup semi automatic hunting rifle ( to be released at the IWA 2011) as well as what just might turn out to be the next generation of bullpup sidearms for the armed forces several interested nations.

Still, without parts its difficult to finish a custom build,so please dear customers be patient with us, as you can see we are working hard at it to ensure availability and we do our best to relay information. As things progress and all the cogs fall into place, the whole process of custom rifle manufacturing should become a whole lot smoother.
As you can see, we've come a long way in a short while and are dead on track to go much much further. Whilst I doubt we will ever get to the size of a company like Remington or US Repeating Arms or H&K, I am intent on making firearms history, and your Grandkids might just hear about us on the history channel.

Thankyou for your support.

Pete

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: European Vacations

OP - instead of coming on the Hide and mouthing off - do some homework first.

You are probably unaware that Pete has had some family issues and a bereavement to deal with in the UK this year. Try dealing with that from Germany - not easy, right?

I've never had a problem reaching Pete by phone - if it is busy or on answerphone....guess what....I try a little later!

As for custom builds - so, it takes time. Most of the good guys are small businesses/craftsmen - not huge corporations with hundreds of staff. So, with limited resources, it seems reasonable that things might take a little longer.

Sure, we all get excited about new projects and want it "yesterday" - I know I got like that with both my recent built-to-order rifles. But the lead times were:

AIAW .308 : 18 months (Govt. contracts took priority over civilian work)
GAP .308 : 18 months (McM stock, a change of spec and export/import paperwork)

If you're in a hurry - why not go and buy something off the shelf?

If you want somethng to your own spec's I think you need to learn the art of patience and co-operation with the smith you choose.

Your mouth-off tactic would probably see all your bits returned in a box the next day with some of the guys I have come across.

Pete, keep doing what you are doing - really enjoying working with you on my current build. I know the results will be worth it.

And, from my perspective at least, there are a lot of people in the UK/European gun trade who could do with a bloody good shake-up!

Good guys are increasingly hard to find!

Cheers

Andy

 

[border_reiver]

Re: European Vacations

Pete ya lazy gits over there are always on hols..Keep yer pecker up in der farterland mate..

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

JR dude, to be honest, only real day off I have had in 2 1/2 years was my Dads funeral.

I said to the missus the other day, " I'm looking forward to early retirement"
what you gonna do then she asked.
" Hmmm" I said " build rifles I guess, and go hunting"
and hunting is what i'm about to do right now. got some badger to cull.
Pete

 

[border_reiver]

Re: European Vacations

You, Jon, and I lost a parent fairly close together, wasn't a good year. I don't think early retirement is coming any time soon for anyone in the states, we're gonna be paying for Obama and his lackies for a looooong time..

 

[ChrisF]

Re: European Vacations


Hey Pete , how are the Avenger II actions coming /

Yeap IF you have not Exported any thing from the US recently , YOU would not beleive the hassle .

BUT If the US is hard to deal with the Aussie's have them Beat .

After waiting forever to finally get a few rifle actions out of the USA , Guess what , with both US Export permit & NZ Import permit , Opps NOT enough .

Even in transit , it requires a CCID number , a Aussie Export permit & a Aussie Import permit , all these require more info than the US & NZ side & more time , NICE .

In pure bureaucracy , the Aussie's have the US beat , just like they lead the World in OSH BS , Opps .

Rant over

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

You are right there JR, all 3 of us had a tough year eh.

Chris. well after the company who was supposed to be making the avenger II actions screwed me. ( www-buema-hochwang.de) delivered actions that had the pin holes for the triggers drilled so high that when you fitted a trigger, the bolt couldn't be fitted, had the picatinny rail not centred in the middle,had very poor machining quality on the fit and finish and a whole load of other things wrong with them.
I had to kick the guy into touch. The issue cost me 250grand in cancelled contract sales ( the true figure is much higher if you consider what i could have sold)a whole years worth of work, and since he has altered a couple of failure points and started marketing the atcion as his own. ( the wanker)

However, every cloud has a silver lining, his screw ups showed areas that could be improved. so basicaly what we have is an Avenger III,,( but i'm still calling it the II.) that is a much more refined version with some extra safety features. It is to be produced for us exclusively by one of the biggest names / companies in firearms manufacture in Germany, so as soon as I get the cashfrom the bank ( have the appointment on thursday) we will have a green light.
Keep you informed, but this will be the best European rifle action available as far as i'm concerned.
I'll be using it for all tactical and hunting rifle builds.
I'll continue using the excellent Barnard actions for match rifle builds.
Let you know as soon as we have actions ready to go.
rgds Pete

 

[Irwin J. Finster]

Re: European Vacations

I wanted to let this matter sit, because Pete hase contacted me in the meantime, and I didn't want to wash dirty laundry in public. And just wanted to give all here an update as soon as I have any news from Roedale an what the will do with my rifle
.
But to this I simply had to reply:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OP - instead of coming on the Hide and mouthing off - do some homework first.</div></div>

In how far should I have made my homework? I tried to contact Pete for months now. And the real showstopper for me was when I didn't know what to do next, and sent him a registrated letter about 2,5 months back and didn't get ANY reply to it. I am sure that the letter was recieved, because it didn't get returned to me. The last contact I had with Pete was at least 6 months back, so I got desperate and asked on this forum if anyone knew anything about the current state of Roedale, because I frankly did not know what to do next. I am not sure what kind of homework I should have made as a costumer other than tryring to contact the company which I gave my money to.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are probably unaware that Pete has had some family issues and a bereavement to deal with in the UK this year. Try dealing with that from Germany - not easy, right?</div></div>

No, I was not aware, and how should I? No contact, remember? Still I feel with Pete, for I lost a very dear realtive recently too. Still I am no clairvoyant so how should I have known?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never had a problem reaching Pete by phone - if it is busy or on answerphone....guess what....I try a little later!</div></div>

Guesse what, I did! I tried to call many times, always within the business hours given on his webpage. And always just got a automated messege that they couldn't come to the phone ATM.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As for custom builds - so, it takes time. Most of the good guys are small businesses/craftsmen - not huge corporations with hundreds of staff. So, with limited resources, it seems reasonable that things might take a little longer.</div></div>

I am aware of that, and even tough 2,5 years is really a *little bit* longer, that was never really my problem. The main deal was that I could not reach Pete in any way.

Phone Calls - OK, might have been unlucky.

Email - OK, might somehow have gone astray. (Though I still
use the same mail adress as when I ordered the rifle,
and I don't use a spam filter - delete all spam by
hand, also tried the contact from on his site...)

Registrated Letter - This I really can't undertand....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're in a hurry - why not go and buy something off the shelf?</div></div>

When I first talked to Pete he sayed it would take between 3-6 months for the rifle. Maybe longer when some parts were delayed. So 2,5 years is a lot longer than that. I am aware that much of the delay was not Pete's fault at all. And as stated above, the wait is not my Problem, the lack of communication is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want somethng to your own spec's I think you need to learn the art of patience and co-operation with the smith you choose.</div></div>

I have been very patient those past 2,5 years, and you can ask Pete, I've never been push, abusive or impolite with my mails to him. In all this time I maybe contacted him 4-5 times (which always took a few tries), and never got an update from him without asking. And I am all for cooperating, but to cooperate, I need to communicate first. Also, I was never set totally in stone about all the specs for my rifle, and would listen to Petes adivce. So if he had told me this or that is not avaliable, but I have this alternative, I would have been all game.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your mouth-off tactic would probably see all your bits returned in a box the next day with some of the guys I have come across.</div></div>

Just asking what's going on when you can't reach anyone, is hardly mouth-off to me. By the time I had not contact for 6 months I would have been very happy to get my stuff, and the money I payed in advance back.

I never intened to turn this into a bash Roedale thread, and if you look trough my posts here, you'll see that I stated this. I just didn't see what else I could have done to find out anything about whats going on.

What someone else would have done? Don't know, I was out of my depth here and asked for help.

I never attacked Pete or his workmanship in any way, and still want to work with him, but I need one thing and that is communication...

 

[bonneville]

Re: European Vacations

Calling someone a "wanker" for ripping off your action is a bit steep as it looks like an AI to me.
may be wrong but that rcs chassis looks alot like an AI design too.
what do you think?

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations


Well the only explination I can think of for email not getting here is that maybe you sent to the roedaleprecision.com which has been changed to roedale.de
With the phone you must just have been unlucky, we are very busy and the phone does not stop ringing. there is never more than 20 seconds between phone calls, and like I said, aside from the business we seem to be www.gunpedia.eu
Why me messages didn't reach you, I don't know, but likewise, Ive been waiting for an answer to a question for 6 months.
Which isn't something seldome among customers, Ive had several who order and then deploy somewhere, go on a world tour or move with thier jobs, this is the flip side of the coin and Its not the first time a rifle has sat here 1 year + finished and ready waiting for a sign of life.

I do however think that a pm message is more appropriate than a thread.
However, this one has brought many things to light, and verified exactly what a pain in the arse it can be to get parts together when you are not based in the USA. so i am not alone in my troubles on that account which has been verified but may come as a surprise to US based folk. . People have been moaning about my delivery times now for at least 4 years, and ive never garuantied delivery times, any time mentioned is always pointed out that it is a guide, parts can suddenly become non available, and that the only time frame one can realy give any indication about isb that within 3 months of all the parts arriving, a rifle is usualy done. Sur eit bothers me, but when relying on parts supply there aint much one can do about it, If it was quality they where moaning about it would bother me a whole hell of a lot more.

anyhow, looks like we got 2 way coms again, so we can finaly get the guy his long awaited shooter out the door, I'll be glad of the space !

regards Pete

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Hi Bonneville.

now that depends on the curcumstances. delivering me unfinnished junk,not to spec, not as requested, with parts missing, features not finished and badly machined and a good 3 months late, then picking my brains to sort out the problems whilst letting me re machine and finish the actions to a usable standard, then saying pay up full price or i'm not delivering the rest of the unfinished, not to spec and even later badly machined junk, whilst all the time knowing you are going to market the product your self constitutes bieng called more than a wanker in my book.

added to that, sorting the problems to a half way usable item based on the input provided by me, then selling the damn things as your own, despite that fact that they where supposed to be an exclusive product consitutes bieng called names again in my book,

Likewise not being able to deliver the promised quality in the promised time frame and costing me 250grand € in cancelled orders constitues a damn sight more than name calling in my book.

The Avenger II is nothing like the AI at all. It has a remington footprint, has an integral 20MOA rail, 3 pos safety (like the win 70, but with a lock in the full safety position) uses remington type barrel shank threads, has 3 locking lugs, a sako type extractor and uses a remington firing pin and has an integral recoil lug, Its not a copied design at all.
I and my CAD engineer built the design up from scratch over weeks of evenings sat infront of the PC using the CAD software. Of course taking on board good ideas that are already on the market is just plain common sence. just like many bolt action are a further developement of the mauser, but not a direct copy. Its pretty much impossible to come up with a bolt action design that is totaly 100% brand new without having similarities to other actions.


And as far as the RCS chassis go. I asked AI to make them ( for the Howa 1500) for me, they wheren't interested.
I asked if they minded if I made the chassis my self and used thier side pannels butt pads and cheek pieces. They didn't mind. I think they thought I wouldn't get it of the ground.
Well I did. and I think mine is an improvement over the original. its lighter, is 1 piece and is actualy available for more action inlets.
Then due to the low availability of the AI sides and other parts, and the wish to improve on a proven design, we've made our own side pannels design ( which also fit the AICS ) have sourced butt pads from a German company, and have made our own cheek pieces.
Today, Ive got the CAD guy working on a combinded adjustable buttpad and buttspike unit that will fit the RCS, Raptor chassis and the AI chassis aswell.

rgds Pete

 

[Ferryman]

Re: European Vacations

Pete I sympathise with you.

I run a business which requires me to import from the USA constantly.

Everything we do is either LE or Military and despite being RFD's Section 5 Holders, registering with the US Dept of State as brokers we still get the run around.

I would love to import a custom left hand action for a build, but trying to find a manufcturer prepared to export is a total waste of time.

In the end I bought new Rem 700's from UK distributor just to get the actions.

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Ferryman, well it seems to be pretty much the same story across the board for the folks outside the US. hell if i wasn't married with 2 kids i'd emigrate there eh,. hell I nearly transfered to the Canadian army once, would still have been on the wrong side of the border eh..
Have you treid Barnard in NZ for left handed actions. They have been excellent to deal with from the word go. great working relationship, great conditions, and a lot less buroctracy. Failing that, hang on a bit, as we'll be left hooking soon.
Whats slowing me down at the mo, having lost 250grand, is the capital, rather than funding my self, it means going back to the bank mafia, who are very sceptical of anything to do with firearms, so rather than being able to go at it hell for leather, its one step at a time, we'll get there though. and soon.

rgds Pete

 

[border_reiver]

Re: European Vacations

Emigrate to some parts of Florida, you just as well be in der farterland, just a bit warmer..Lots of German enclaves around here and west of Orlando..and there's always Oktoberfest. Chance of long holidays every year between August and November..

And it could feel a bit like ol' blighty, less the weather, with all the towns and place names like Windermere, Lake Wales, Inverness, et cetera..There's even a Hull in Florida..

Country AND Western music on most radio stations.

Lots of hogs to shoot.


HA!

JR

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

JR dude don't tempt me, the wife likes to watch " A Place in the Sun" on TV. and I know she's thinking " if we sell the house in Yorkshire, we could buy a place somewhere sunny and use it for holidays and rent it out as holiday accomodation to all our friends.
Well. the sun shines in Gods Own Country ( thats Yorkshire for you un-informed guys) and i'll be doing my bit for the Yorkshire Tourist Board just as soon as i get the turf layed in the garden, and find a gardener to look after it. so if anyone fancys a trip to Yorkshire.... i know a bloke, not a million miles from where i am now who can organise it.

I must admit. the thought of selling up in Germany, selling up in the UK, combining the proceeds and having a look at what would be on offer either across the pond or down under is intruiging. I bet i could get a right plot of land, with good views and a nice home made of logs or local stone, and a nice machine shop in one of the paddocks and the occasional deer wandering across the property. ( that be aligator in Florida, or am I mistaken)
ahh well. dream away. looks like i'm stuck with sausages and sauerkraut, at least until the kids leave school anyway.

Pete

 

[Erud]

Re: European Vacations

The thing I find most disturbing about this thread is that apparently in much/all of the EU, it is common for whole companies/factories/etc to shut down for weeks at a time so everyone can go on a vacation? That is unbelievable - someone PLEASE correct me if I am mistaken.

God help us if we ever get that far gone over here, though I'm afraid it's just a matter of time.....

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: European Vacations

It's true in continental europe...so when you take the wife over to Paris for that once in a life-time shopping trip don't do it in august...unless you are trying to save some $$$$

 

[Spuhr]

Re: European Vacations

Two to four weeks is normal closing time,usally in july or august. In Sweden does all workers get five weeks paid vacation.

Håkan

 

[Erud]

Re: European Vacations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Spuhr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two to four weeks is normal closing time,usally in july or august. In Sweden does all workers get five weeks paid vacation.

Håkan </div></div>

That is just insane.

 

[Spuhr]

Re: European Vacations

I am self employed and have had one day off tjis year. But i dont think its insane, i think its great. Mostly people neds time off to recharge their batteries

Håkan

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Erud i can see both sides of it.
after working 10 years as an active soldier.
3 years in the defence industry followed by 8 years in the space industry. all 3 very high performance related types of work, I know the value of a complete break and some time off. I sure as hell could do with a break now too.

we have most companies running on minimum staff in Europe and it just makes sence to have a planned break rather than staff missing in dribs and drabs, or what some to is 50% of the staff go first then return and the rest then get thier break..

The problem in the organisation of it all is that you have the different counties / states going on vacations at different times ( its dependant on the shool holidays) and living on the border between couties and working with companies in yet other counties / states you can almost garantie that the holiday schedule doesn't fit with the raw materials delivery, manufacturing and finishing schedules.

a complete shut down of a factory give also time for a rear party of staff to perform machine servicing, repairs, upgrades,buildings maintenance and a load of catch up work.

As an employer i hate holidays and think a working das should be 24 hours and the week 7 days,.

onthe otherhand I know my staff perform better when they have regular breaks to re charge batteries.

what I do not agree with, and its what many of the Europeans do through nessecity, it during a vacation,( and at a weekend and on an evening for that matter) they get employment somehwere else to earn some cash,
way I see it is if i'm paying some one for 6 weeks of the year whilst they are on vacation, then they better be damn well resting up to be fit for thier return to work.

funny how i didn't see it that way when I was in employed status, Ive had 2 jobs for as long as i can remember,

swings and roundabouts.

if folk didn't have time off they wouldn't have hobbies, which means they wouldn't spend money on guns and shooting which would put me on permanent vacation i.e. the dole.

rgds Pete

 

[ejg]

Re: European Vacations

I think the Europeans have over done the holidays a bit, on the other hand, especially for a family it gives all a chance to be together. We have always taken 2-4 weeks off in the summer for a family vacation. Kids get brain washed enough at school.
I certainly work much better after a break and mostly have the best ideas while on holidays. We have completely closed our production for two weeks and I'm away for three weeks sailling in the canaries with the family..he he. One week to go and I've designed a new cheek raiser and a few design changes to our new tac stock. Also talking about marketing strategies with the family as we are a small family outfit. so not all time is wasted.
Looking forward to September, plenty work and....sika season
edi

 

[Boernsn]

Re: European Vacations

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
However, every cloud has a silver lining, his screw ups showed areas that could be improved. so basicaly what we have is an Avenger III,,( but i'm still calling it the II.) that is a much more refined version with some extra safety features. It is to be produced for us exclusively by one of the biggest names / companies in firearms manufacture in Germany, so as soon as I get the cashfrom the bank ( have the appointment on thursday) we will have a green light.
Keep you informed, but this will be the best European rifle action available as far as i'm concerned.
rgds Pete </div></div>

Pete:

Did you get the cash from the bank, that there is now a green light for the Avenger II?

And how long will it take, until you can deliver the action to customers?

rgds Logos

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Still in talks, I'm not taking the first offer presented, it pays to shop around when interest rates are at stake and playing one bank against the other usualy brings dividends.
should have it all sorted in couple of weeks,
apart from that the starting pistol on this is loaded and the runners are on thier blocks.

regards Pete

 

[tomirwin]

Re: European Vacations


"And as far as the RCS chassis go. I asked AI to make them ( for the Howa 1500) for me, they wheren't interested.
I asked if they minded if I made the chassis my self and used thier side pannels butt pads and cheek pieces. They didn't mind. I think they thought I wouldn't get it of the ground.
Well I did. and I think mine is an improvement over the original. its lighter, is 1 piece and is actualy available for more action inlets.
Then due to the low availability of the AI sides and other parts, and the wish to improve on a proven design, we've made our own side pannels design ( which also fit the AICS ) have sourced butt pads from a German company, and have made our own cheek pieces.
Today, Ive got the CAD guy working on a combinded adjustable buttpad and buttspike unit that will fit the RCS, Raptor chassis and the AI chassis aswell.

rgds Pete "[/quote]


FROM ACCURACY INTERNATIONAL IN RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE


It is easy to rewrite history and the above statement is an example.
I would like everyone to know that Accuracy International do mind if anyone copies our parts or makes product which clearly looks like our. It has taken us a long time to establish our brand image and it is sad that others just produce copies.
As for the availability of stock sides and any other of our parts, they are readily availavle to anyone who needs them for our products. We do not make them available to people who are going to use them to build a rifle or stock which looks like ours.
We respect our competitors but not those who use our designs to fill their own pockets.
Some say it is a compliment to have your product copied but it is just tantamount to stealing ideas which we have worked long and hard on.
As a result of people copying our products we have been forced to take more of a stand legally and in the future will be more prepared to take legal action to those copying our products.

Tom Irwin
Accuracy International

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

Hi Tom.
In December of 2007 I sent writen letters to AI explaining my requirement for a Howa version of the AICS. I recieved no reply.
I also emailed several email addresses I have for contact at AI in both the USA and UK. I recieved replies back from 2.
Basicaly what i was told was that AI where not interested in manufacturing a Howa AICS at this time as they didn't see a big enough market and it didn't warrant the investment.
To which I presented the question, would there be any bother If I manufactured my own. I was told that the copyright on the AICS had run out after 10 years and wasn't renewed, that AI wheren't concerned about me manufacturing a Howa chassis.

So I did just that and we released the Howa version of the RCS at the IWA 2008 and then I got a customer request for a chassis for the Tikka T3 and it was produced by mid 2008, and I was also producing chassis for the Avenger I action at the time.

Scott ( I forget his last name, but can search email if need be) from AI contacted me, firstly through snipershide PM then via email with a proposal of AI manufacturing the Tikka version. We emailed back and forth about the possibility of me having sole retail rights outside the USA, Unfortunately the conversation dried up from the AI side.

Let me make it perfectly clear that:
1. I can back up all the above with email that would be admissable in a court of law if nessecary.
2.I wanted to work with AI on this project right from the very start. I feel that I wasn't taken seriously.It would have saved me a lot of money and time if we could have worked together.
3.I would also still be interested in a joint venture providing the terms are suitable for both parties. afterall you guys also make a version of the AICS for Surgeon or not?


Further to your comment about copying. Well one could fasten AICS side pannels to a broom and in the right light conditions and distance it would look like a rifle.
There are several wooden copies of the AICS on the market.

The RCS chassis is different to the AICS in several ways:
1. Different Action Inlett
2. 1 Piece Construction.
3. Different bipod attachment

And Yes I freely admit to manufacturing an alloy chassis that fits inside AI side pannels and enables Howa and Tikka owners to do the same as any Remington owner can, and that is to pimp thier rifle to look like an AI.
There are numerouse bodykits that make several types of car look like a ferrari. same difference.

Yes we have been buying in and fitting AICS side pannels, butt pads and spacer systems for the past 2 1/2 years. They have proved very difficult to get a hold of in any number, your comment explains to some extent why.

With regards to respect, well there was no need for AI and Roedale to be competitors, as I mentioned above, I was all for a co-operation right from the start, and still am.

I wouldn't say Ive stolen Malcom Coopers idea either, the basis of the stock was a 3 positional stock based roughly on the Tikka Master Sporter stock. ( As is the Sako TRG), Having worked on AI rifles through the late 80's and early 90's and having met Mr Cooper on a couple of occasions during my Military days I do know a little about the back ground and the design requirements from conversation with him.

What I have done is to take an excisting idea and develope it further for use with other rifle actions. Out of respect for AI Ive purposely not manufactured chassis to fit any of the rifles that fit the AI or AICS chassis in the form of the RCS I

We've been doing this now for 2 1/2 years,( proir to that I was re machining AICS to fit the Howa 1500 and the RCS II side pannels have been in developement for 18months and before anyone gets the idea that the RCS II is a copy of the AIAX. I swear on my Fathers grave that I got the non thumbhole idea well before ever seeing an AI AX.

To say I am stealing ideas which have been worked long and hard on is like saying Manners Composits stole thier stock designs from McMillan. Like saying Heckler & Koch stole thier 416 and 417 designs from Stoner or Armalite, like saying AI, Remington and Ashbury all stole ideas off eachother. Once the wheel has been invented, everything else that rolls is a further developement and not nesseceraly a copy.

I would say that in all above cases designs where influenced by, certainly, and are not a direct copy of. One has to think why similar products are designed and manufactured. In my case I had a need that wasn't bieng fullfilled.
I personaly feel that the RCS II is an improvement in ergonomics over the thumbhole version and that a 1 piece chassis offers certain advantages.The feel of the ergonomics of the RCSII is exactly the right ballance between the thumbhole and the chassis with an AR pistol grip, of which we have seen so many lately. I think I got it right.

And Tom I wonder why I hear from you only now on the subject of the RCS stocks. Like I said, they have been in circulation now for well over 2 years. I have been buying parts directly from AI for them. Could it be that now we are finaly getting some where with the RCS II you see our enterprise as a threat ?
Certainly its flattering to see I am bieng taken seriously at last.

I have a proposal for you.
If AI agree to work with me on a joint venture with regards to my RCS II, and we can come to a mutualy beneficial agreement on distribution, pricing, terms and length of agreemet, I will freely give you all my CAD data, and all my help and input and will cease manufacture immediately. I will also give you all the help I can on the developement of future models of AICS - RCS and associated accessories. I am certain that there is a mutualy beneficial opertunity here, that will not only benefit AI and Roedale, but also a heck of a lot of customers.

I'm open for suggestions, and at your service.

Kindest Regards Pete

 

[chrisj]

Re: European Vacations

Nice job on clarifying that Pete. I have seen this with other companies in the past. Quite honestly, as long as you aren't making chassis' for Rem 700 types. you are not competition for AI at all. Furthermore, it seems as though your pricing is in the same range as AI distributors, so you are Noy undercutting them at all.

 

[jrob300]

Re: European Vacations

Pete,

Tried to PM you. Your box is full. Can you clear it in your spare time.

John

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: European Vacations

box cleaned up.

Rgds Pete

 

[jrob300]

Re: European Vacations

PM sent

John