Rookie loader upgrading equipment

[gcoulsey]

Hello to all

I have been enjoying your forums as an outsider for a long time, and finally taken the plunge and joined up!!

I have been casually reloading for about 5yrs now, using an old Lee anniversary kit and lee neck dies, and an rcbs electronic scales.

I get pretty good results from my rifle/reloads, on a good day I can usually shoot .5" 100yrd grps, but I love the whole reloading process, and want to step things up a notch..

I have just ordered a Forster co-ax press, and Forster neck dies,
and am now looking into prepping my cases more carefully..
What case trimmers/accessories can you guys recommend? I was looking at the RCBS trim mate for multi-function.. Is that a good choice?
Are there any concentricity problems with holding the brass in your hand when sizing the primer pockets etc??

Thanks, I appreciate your time and forgivness of a rookie or any stupid questions!!
Giles.

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Trimmer: Everyone is using the Giraud Trimmers for doing high quantitys.

I have a Gracey Trimmer and use it for my high volume stuff.

For the quality match ammo stuff I use my LE Wilson trimmer. They use machined holder that hold the brass extremly sqaure to the cutter.

PS: Go have a pint for me!

Terry

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Hmm, they certainly look built to last! Trouble is getting that type of hardware in the UK.. Shipping costs a fortune for something of that size and weight,
I can get larger 'known' brands of course, but the specialist hand built machines are pretty unobtainable without paying thru the nose lol.

Interested in the L.E Wilson gear, I can get thier stuff from midway(UK)
do they do a powered trimmer/neck turner?

P.s maybe if our fuel prices weren't so high, I could afford to have a pint for you lol

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interested in the L.E Wilson gear; I can get their stuff from Midway(UK). Do they [have] a powered trimmer/neck turner? </div></div>
There is one available from Sinclair International. Sinclair offers their own Wilson kit combinations and may be the preferred source. Their carbide cutter might be of interest.

Wilson doesn't offer a neck turner. Most prefer a hand-held unit. Sinclair has several.

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Maybe check ebay!!

Terry

 

[lightman]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Gfunk,Welcome to the hide.I also use a Wilson trimmer for my match ammo.I bought the one from Sinclair with all the bells and whistles.I also like their case prep tools,they seem to be a little better quality that most others.The way most primer pocket tools work,keeping it straight is not much of a problem.Now,go have a pint for me too! Pete

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Too late! I'm on my 2nd pint! Had a real nice Belgium at the local watering hole and on the owners suggestion a Pint of the Mystery brew. Nice dark and hoppy!

I like the Wilson Gear! I use the trimmer base to check my runouts. My Concentricity Gage

Cheers

Terry

 

[Suasponte]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

gfunkUK! Check your PM's.

Terry

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Cheers for pm terry,

ok, so let's say I go for the Wilson cutter, I can handle that, but I'm a little confused about reamer/turning process.. It seems a bit conflicting.

So I have fired brass, tumbled, and a nice new Forster press and neck dies..
What is the next stage in the process?
The way I understand it at the moment, neck sizing returns the outside of the neck nice and concentric to the case centreline, and any variation of neck thickness is now forced to the inside of the neck.. So it needs reaming to uniform it.
BUT I have read several negative points that it's extremely hard to ream the inside, and keep concentric to the case centreline, as the reamers 'centre themselves via floating' to the path of least resistance.

Then with neck turning, an expanded ball in a die perfects the inside of the neck, and forces the error to the outside, where it can be 'turned' off.

Is this right? Or am I messing all the information up? It just seems like chasing the error from outside to inside and back again.

What one process solves uneven neck thickness the best, and at what stage does it fit into the prep work?
I don't want (at this stage) hundreds of dollars worth of seperate tools for jobs, just a couple of good quality tools to do the Most beneficial operations to begin with.
As I get used to the increased case prep, I can add more intrinsic things as I go along!

 

[lightman]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Gfunk,you don't have to ream or turn to get the benifits of neck sizing.I feel that neck turning is better than neck reaming,if you really want to go that route.Usually you neck turn after trimming to length,and expanding the neck to the correct size.There is a lot of info on neck turning on www.6mmbr and on www.varmintal.There is some disagreement about the results that neck turning can provide in a factory barrel/chamber.If your not going to use bushing type dies,I would only turn enough off of the neck to clean up about 50-60%,or you can get into trouble over not having enough neck tension.Hope this helps, Pete

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Thanks, I will check the links,
I have always used standard Lee neck dies, so have ordered the Forster BR neck die as an upgrade.. I don't feel comfortable moving up to the bushing dies yet, until I understand the theory more, and if it will benefit me at my skill level behind the rifle lol!

Yes I'm using factory standard rifle ATM, a SAKO 75, but expanding my knowledge ready for a custom build

 

[Rust]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Well, in other than a tight neck chamber, where the brass has to be turned for the loaded round to actually chamber, brass turning isn't really required.

Instead, get a case neck uniformity measuring tool such as http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/6801/Case-Gauges-Headspace-Tools to check for uniform neck thickness. The cases that do not make the grade can be used for fouling shoots or other purposes. Generally anything over .002" neck thickness variance can cause accuracy issues and cartridge runout will also be an issue. .001" is better yet.

Speaking of case trimmers, don't bother trimming (unless the length of virgin brass exceeds maximum length) until the brass has been fired. I prefer the Wilson micrometer adjust case trimmer, the case mouths are square and the length can be very precisely adjusted. http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5497/Case-Trimmers

As far as primer pocket uniforming, I prefer the Sinclair carbide uniformers http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/11248/Primer-Pocket-Tools

No one makes a flash hole deburring tool that I really like, I ended up regrinding one to a profile I liked better, it doesn't cut a "funnel" into the flash hole as much as the original profile.

Any brass preperation past that is a serious case of diminishing returns for any SAAMI/CIP spec chamber. Thinning necks by turning in a standard neck chamber just works the dickens out of the brass and it will work harden and start to split much sooner. If you are planning on going to a tighter neck chamber, go with a no turn neck chamber reamer which has tighter than spec neck diameter, but will still be larger than the neck of the loaded round. For instance the spec on a 6.5 X 284 neck is .301", my chamber is cut to .297", my loaded rounds with un-turned brass are .294". But with .003" clearance I have to constantly check measurements because .003" is pretty tight. I bought a very large quantity of Lapua brass from a single lot# and spec'd the reamer based on that brass. If I ever run out (doubtful) I would have to hope to be able to replace it with brass that measured the same or slightly in neck thickness. The rifle in question is very, very accurate.

But let me reiterate, neck turning is time consuming and fiddly, and in a SAAMI/CIP spec chamber is not as good as buying brass of high quality with uniform neck thickness to begin with. Lapua and Winchester (takes more prep) come to mind in most chamberings. In Europe, RUAG and RSW come to mind as excellent quality.

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

What solves the uneven neck thickness problem best is culling the brass using some form of ball mic. Neck turning fits the brass to a custom chamber. What may prove helpful for you in learning the fine points of handloading is <span style="text-decoration: underline">Handloading</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">for</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">Competition</span> by Glen Zediker. It's available from Zediker or Sinclair.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

thanks to all of you for helpful links and info,

i chose the wilson trimmer package with micrometer from sinclair, and also copied terrys concentricity guage idea by buying magnetic base and dial indicator, to mount over the wilson trimmer,

so i can trim, and check case/neck/bullet run out etc all with same equipment.

a possum pocket reamer, and some new digi calipers.
oh.. and the Zediker handloading book from sinclair too!!

i think this (along with new dies + press when they arrive) is a nice upgrade package to lower me closer to the realms of more advanced reloading.

decent brass is very expensive over here.. midwayUK is currently (out of stock) on NORMA brass, at £102 per 100!!

i think thats about $150 per 100..
fookin expensive!!!

anyway, thanks again everyone,

Giles.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

well most of my stuff has arrived now, so using terry idea of spinning brass in my wilson cutter holder, under a depth indicator to check any runout.. my wilson shell holder is off by .004" !!!

the outside of it is perfectly round, but the inside hole is not concentric, so any brass i place in, 'dips' .004" at exactly the same spot, every rotation!!!

therefore.. i cant even trust it to trim brass square either!

great.
anyone else had conentric problems with the shell holders? if i order a replacement is the next one likely to be off centre too??

you would have thought they woulda got the damn hole straight..

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

Contact Wilson directly. If they have a problem, they'll want to know about it.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the outside of it is perfectly round, but the inside hole is not concentric, so any brass i place in, 'dips' .004" at exactly the same spot, every rotation!!!

therefore.. i cant even trust it to trim brass square either! </div></div>

As long as the axis of the inside hole is at least parallel to the axis of the outer diameter of the holder, it will still trim brass squarely. Try measuring runout at the front and rear of the holder (i.e. near the case head, and near the shoulder), and see if the high points coincide on both ends.

Andy

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJakeJ1s</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the outside of it is perfectly round, but the inside hole is not concentric, so any brass i place in, 'dips' .004" at exactly the same spot, every rotation!!!

therefore.. i cant even trust it to trim brass square either! </div></div>

As long as the axis of the inside hole is at least parallel to the axis of the outer diameter of the holder, it will still trim brass squarely. Try measuring runout at the front and rear of the holder (i.e. near the case head, and near the shoulder), and see if the high points coincide on both ends.


That's the trouble.. It's not parallel at all. I have also checked it with my calipers, and they also confirm that at the shoulder end of the holder, the hole is off centre by .004".

You can just barely see it too as you spin the holder.


Andy </div></div>

 

[Winchester 69]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

At the moment, you're more interested in being able to use the Wilson thingy for measuring run-out. Wilson will be able to tell you if you're pissing up a rope.

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Rookie loader upgrading equipment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Winchester 69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the moment, you're more interested in being able to use the Wilson thingy for measuring run-out. Wilson will be able to tell you if you're pissing up a rope. </div></div>

nicely put

and half true, I want to be able to trim a load of brass too that has been fired several times and starting to bind. I have other cases to use in the mean time though.
I will email Wilson tonight out of curiosity, but have simply ordered a new holder to get the ball rolling anyway, £10 delivered is not worth crying over, it's just the set-back on time that's a little annoying.