Advanced Marksmanship Rucksack as a rifle rest

stickboy

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Does anyone have pics of how to use a rucksack as a proper rifle rest? I would like to try something other than a bipod.

Thanks
 

Rob01

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

There's really nothing "proper" about using a ruck. You can use it in a many ways. Just have it so it's high enough for you to get comfortable behind the rilfe and that it's stable. Then lay your rifle across it and shoot. There are companies like SO Tech who make little molle attached rests for the back of a pack which holds the rifle more secure or if you have a pack which has a couple of difference external compartments you can lay the rilfe between them. Below are a couple of ways I use my Camelback BFM
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Sterling Shooter

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

Wanna use something other than a bipod, then sling-up. The sling works in any position, providing about 60% more support than bone alone. Learn to use a loop sling, as well as the hasty sling and you'll have the support necessary for most any need.
 

Ratbert

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

Every time I see pics of someone shooting off a ruck they always have a nice, full, puffy pack. Whenever I load up a pack for shooting it's full of ammo boxes, spotting scope, tripod, water bottles, etc. This does not produce a nice plump pack off of which to shoot. If I actually need to USE (which IS actually why you pack it, right?) any of this stuff then it's even worse. Maybe I'll toss a rain jacket in there but that's hardly enough to fill out even a small ruck.

So do you guys stuff your packs with extra socks just so it will be nice and plump or what?
 

echotango

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every time I see pics of someone shooting off a ruck they always have a nice, full, puffy pack. Whenever I load up a pack for shooting it's full of ammo boxes, spotting scope, tripod, water bottles, etc. This does not produce a nice plump pack off of which to shoot. If I actually need to USE (which IS actually why you pack it, right?) any of this stuff then it's even worse. Maybe I'll toss a rain jacket in there but that's hardly enough to fill out even a small ruck.

So do you guys stuff your packs with extra socks just so it will be nice and plump or what? </div></div>

That's a good observation. I agree, that unless I stuff my pack with things I'm not necessarily going to use, it's much too "soft" for a reliable rest. Probably since we're mostly shooting for fun, as opposed to being on an actual mission were the pack is full of necessities, is the difference.
 

Ratbert

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

I've actually thought about taking a claymore pouch or something and filling it with expansion foam (like the stuff you use for filling in cracks in your foundation) and then strapping it to the pack (or just shoving it inside) to act as a shooting platform.

But it seems like if you're going to go to that much trouble then why didn't you just strap a bipod to the rifle and be done with it?
 

postal

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

At the range is different than a real mission of course... but a few extra jackets/long sleeves in the car stuffed into the pack firm it up nicely. My brother used my camelbak as a rest for the 22lr match we had last weekend, and stuffed a few shirts in it for this very reason.
 

allenst65

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are companies like SO Tech who make little molle attached rests for the back of a pack which holds the rifle more secure ... </div></div>

Speaking of which, I've always seen these handmade rests in USMC school pics. What are these built from, just something like sleeping mat foam all taped up or something more rigid?

rest.jpg
 

Greg Langelius *

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

I like the simple tripod made from some dowels and a tight band. It's pretty nigh impossible to make a tripod rock.

Greg
 

ah6oy

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wanna use something other than a bipod, then sling-up. The sling works in any position, providing about 60% more support than bone alone. Learn to use a loop sling, as well as the hasty sling and you'll have the support necessary for most any need. </div></div>
I don't think most of the guys have ever tried slings properly. You and I know it isn't just wrap and plop down. They need training. I also think they might be figuring using heavy barrels and while carrying the rifle they think it needs to be resting on something other than themselves. It's OK Sterling. They'll always loose shooting against us
smile.gif


The taped up thing looks like MK-19 ammo can foam wrapped up if anything common. The squarish sides could be the round inserts between rds after being squared off.
 

Sterling Shooter

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

Your right, they don't have any training. After all, they don't think they need any training. They equate knowing how to shoot with executing the firing task, what else is there to know?

Of course, knowing how to shoot is to know something about how to support sight alignment and trigger control, that's to say, to know a few things about bone/artificial support.

I don't think, however, that the original poster on this thread is interested in good shooting. I think he's interested in convincing others on the rifle range that he's some kind of ninja, or something. Perhaps, he thinks that shooting from the ruck will impress folks.
 
G

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

If your real world, your lungs should be working just fine.
Infalable's work perfect inside of the Alice pouchs , if your old Co2 is your friend.
Weapon between or across them, Alice can be turned three ways giving 3 different heights before proping on local items.
 

Jarhead

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

Well to be practical in the field you should have the shovel or knife etc.Then a small zip bag made from burlap or leather fill the bag with sand or dirt and make a platfrom if you are in a stationary fixed position.I prefer the rice bag with the zipper.Adapt overcome improvise for the shooting suituation.A sling and the pack make very good steady rest combo.I also use the lil shooting pack.
 

ah6oy

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Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

I only see the 50 cal as needing a bipod. Using a bipod I see one definite arrangement that needs to done. If it is spring hinged the bipod needs to be having the springs be part of the rifle recoil which in other words is the bipod needs to be collapsing to the front when the legs are stowed. If it isn't then during recoil you'l get uneven jump. You'll still get uneven jump when it collapses forward but not as bad.

Shooting off the ruck you have wrestling to be done with the bag till things are right and getting the same lay for repetitiveness in a real word encounter is wild odds. Last I knew the guys hired to grow opium, refine it into heroin, and transport are patient as heck so that's a plus for using a ruck in Afgahnistan. Of course its a different story in Iraq. Those boys are interested in quick and violent payback is a bitch.

But back to why not use a sling. Below are a couple of just read a book style of links. We all know it isn't just reading and takes years to get there...(where Tubbs and many others are). For some using a scope compaired to iron sights is scoped guys blowing off iron site guys as kids. Competition iron site guys are hitting 1000 all the time using a sling. Some how we can all figure starting at the top fguring a scope is going to get you there is a wrong assumption I'd hope. You aint going to ride a killer GSX-R1000 and split cars going 180 with out spending year after year riding. I kind of see shooting the same. Get the basics right, have a real feel for the different rifles and know how they are going to torque out when hitting max power curve. The rifle and bike have to be layed in right. A heavy barrel is a plus for guys with some slop in their shooting and gives some the idea that the heavy barrel is going to take care of everything and just lay that rifle on top of something. I see that concept as totally wrong. You can get a lot better performance from any rifle slinging up the right way. One of these days I'll quit being a little helpful and skip comments like many other times or just make simple comments for corective actions which is like telling a bank robber he dropped some cash exiting the bank. Some gus don't even realise there are days they can go out shooting and its just the wrong day for their body to be shooting. I'm going to say this for the last time online. If you are going to be wanting to be shooting good YOU have got to not just think about shooing but practice your position at home or where ever before going out shooting. This means 2 weeks or more of getting into position practicing hold for being on taget when relaxed and not coming off target and a whole slew of things. Not just slam away. Your bones and muscle memory have to be there and practiced to not screw the shots up. Shoot right. Shooting isn't simple. I remember a few years back Sterling talking about countless hours he had spent in his back yard laying there practicing for his improvement and upcoming competitions. He probably still does from time to time to keep from loosing his edge. You have to. Slinging lead alone doesn't get a guy results. A sling is going to get a rifle so locked in on a target it is sickening. It's not the sling that makes him an ace shot, its his practice too. Having the glass or iron on a target isn't going to make a long shot if the weapon and shooter aren't set up right. blahblah blah. Good luck.

Basic shooting
Tubbs

PS don't pay attention to me. I volunteered for the last afghanistan deployment. It's way better to lay behind a ruck in america.
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I think I have PTSD (post thread stress distarctions) now.
 

Lowlight

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Shooting is about consistency, and a ruck is never consistent.

    In the old days, we didn't have bipods on the A1, so a ruck was used, but today, we/they have bipods, so why not use them. People think because they see a picture of a guy shooting off a ruck he is right or doing something superior, all of which are wrong.

    A ruck is fine for one shot, but it is never the same platform twice, & I don't care what you attach to it, because it is the stuff on the inside that determines the height and consistency.

    Wake up people, shooting off a ruck is fine in a field taking one shot, or for hunting, but it is not about proper shooting, it is about getting off a shot.
     

    Lowlight

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    If you are going to put a "skeleton" inside your ruck, why not use a bipod, or a custom made front rest.

    Basically, you are reducing the carry capacity and increasing the carry weight just to get a shot off, when a bipod is all you need, and made for the job.

    Please, it's a bunch of horseshit, and what works for Jerry doesn't mean it will work for anyone else.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    I think that shooting off a bipod or a ruck is not ideal FOR ME. I use a rest because it's optimized for what I do, unfortunatly it's heavy and clunky and not suited well for field use.

    My pesonal technique of using a sling and bipod or rest helps, but problems with my own recent physical condition limits my own ability to use it myself.

    The problem with the bipod is hop. Honestly, the only reliable solution I've ever been able to manage is my slung technique. Pisses me off that I have so much trouble using it myself, hence my bipods are all removed from my rifles nowadays.

    The problem with the ruck is that it is not a rest. In fact it's not much of anything in particular, because its value comes from the ruck's contents, and we've not really addessed that issue in terms that make it suitible as a rest.

    If I were designing the ruck for use as a rest, I'd be designing a rigid liner that determines the ruck's exterior dimensions and shape. Something similar in concept to the old USGI fiberglass Packboard, a=only maybe deeper, and contoured to match th einterior dimensions of the ruck. Unfortunately, rigid surfaces make poor rests. So there would need to be some sort of resilient, non-rebounding buffer between the rifle and the rigid liner.

    I'm thinking that Tempur foam would be ideal for this application; or perhaps a beanbag concept filled with plastic Airsoft BB's.

    Greg
     

    Jarhead

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    I know all you guys are good shots but shooting off the ruck for small targets and long distance shots i'd say with my own level of shooting experience is not doable shot after shot.With the bipod sure you move sometimes but can drill a target with great accuracy because you have a nice tight hold.Shooting off the ruck freehand is anything but a tight position and at long distance good luck.At 800 or beyond you will have problems moving around.I have used the ruck and it is not good unless your life depends on needing a rest quick from fatigue.I for one have used the bipod and been unable to get enough hight at times.So for me a weapon I can shoot scoped and slinged with a bipod offhand,kneeling or sitting makes for sense to me.Heavy 30 pound weapons don't work for me ain't that strong anymore.I like my weapon 12lbs or less.I think lowlight is making very good points and would defer to his technique in this matter.Beretta Out
     

    Lowlight

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    sick.gif


    Some of you guys just don't seem to get it, but that is fine, do whatever makes you feel snipery.

    And for the record, shot properly bipods don't "hop", poor shooting positions behind the rifle cause the bipod to hop, and professionally I don't see how shooting off a beach ball would help anyone shoot better. Balloons and rifles are not a consistent, accurate combination, if they were we'd be filling our lungs with air before every shot.

    But to each their own, seriously it makes me laugh.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    I've done most of my field shooting off a ruck. There are pluses and minuses to everything, and what works for me may not work for you. I carry a bipod in the ruck and use it when I need to. I don't seem to have any problems shooting 1/2 MOA with either system.

    I'm currently using the Eberlestock M3 pack. The front load configuration makes keeping the load setup for a rest easy for me. The bottom compartment is the area the rifle rests on. My ghille top and various camo drapes are backed in this area over the stripped down MRE's and extra water bladder. If I put the ghille top on, I roll up my BDU top and replace it. I've got two poly pellet filled GI socks as sandbags in side pockets to use as rear bags or additional fill as needed. My spotter kit has two bags as well, used for the spotting scope or to build a position as required. I find this system very stable, quite consistent and repeatable, with no real compromise in the load carried. I shoot this system with the .338 to 1500m, it seems to work just fine.

    The up side to a bipod is it's always available if it's mounted to the gun. I don't see it as any more consistent than the ruck, as it's dependant on the surface it sits on. At Gunsite, you can be on plywood, packed earth, loose pea gravel and a truck bed all in the same day. I actually like to use one of the poly pellet bags under the feet of the pod to get exactly the same base no matter the surface material.

    So, while I personally prefer the ruck for a rest, I've got nothing against the bipod and use it when I feel the need, just as I'll break out the Manfrotto tripod and ball head rest system if the situation calls for it.

    I don't have a shooting sling on any of my sniper systems, just a carry strap. Slung up works wery well on the range, I shot a fair bit of smallbore and highpower match that way. For a hunting rifle, a good shooting sling like the Ching sling system is a great asset. As a sniper, laying in position for long periods of time, the sling is a non-starter. No doubt there are rare occasions where the sling could be used, but the bipod or pack will work as well if not better. We teach proper sling use in the hunting classes, but it's been dropped from the sniper classes. Certainly one should spend some time shooting from a slung up position, it forces you to work on the fundamentals to a much greater degree than a bipod/butt bag combo does. For a sniper, it's just a pretty unlikely position to actually use in the field. Of course, one generally presumes sniper candidates to already be expert in basic marksmanship skills. In the private sector, we have people come to class who have never shot ANY rifle before, which presents a whole other set of challenges.

    When I teach, I teach both the pod and ruck and let the student choose which works best for them. If you get a lot of jump using the pod, your position is wrong. The rifle should recoil straight to the rear and your followthrough should bring you right back on target. If you jump left or right, you are not setup square behind the gun, or you NPA is way off.

    Cory Trapp
    Gunsite Academy, Inc.
     

    MrButterpants

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    sick.gif


    Some of you guys just don't seem to get it, but that is fine, do whatever makes you feel snipery.

    And for the record, shot properly bipods don't "hop", poor shooting positions behind the rifle cause the bipod to hop, and professionally I don't see how shooting off a beach ball would help anyone shoot better. Balloons and rifles are not a consistent, accurate combination, if they were we'd be filling our lungs with air before every shot.

    But to each their own, seriously it makes me laugh. </div></div>

    There's a scary bit of irony in you forgetting your bipod today after this post.
     

    Lowlight

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Yes, it was ironic that I forgot to put my bipod after taking it off to fly, and what sucked even more was shooting of a bag.

    Cory,

    I have to ask, how do you get away with multiple shots with a 338 on a ruck without having to "re-position" the contents and the bag. You have to be the worlds tightest packer to arrange it in a way that doesn't push and move the inside. I have tried everything from my Kifaru rucks to Becker Patrol packs and they all move, in fact I gave away my Eberlestock ruck.

    Maybe a test is in order, set your ruck up, measure the height, fire three shots from your 338 measure the ruck again, and fire 2 more and measure it again, never fixing the bag. I would like to see what anyone's position looks like after firing several rounds off a ruck as well as the ruck itself.

    I know I was trained off a ruck, we didn't have bipods to be issued, and went through my whole Marine training and years shooting off a ruck, but honestly then it was necessary, not due to accuracy. I have yet to see any Competition shooter use or excel with a ruck. And I think guys like that if it worked would be all over it, same with the Benchrest crowd.

    I think if you truly want a rifle rest, that is portable and stable consider an Alamo 2 Star, that piece of kit works and is a dedicated rifle rest, not something adapted to the cause.
    08ReadeSpring42.jpg


    That is the way to use a platform, and speaking of which, during my years in the USMC, I opted for 3 sticks (or tent poles) tied together to make a tripod over a ruck, cause you never had the same platform from shot to shot regardless of what anyone says... it's not consistent and if you having to fiddle with your kit constantly you're doing it wrong.

    The only place I have seen people get by using a ruck to their advantage over a bipod is with moving targets inside 300 yards due to the amount of traversing they have to do, some people are just not adept at moving the bipod smoothly so a ruck works better for them, but again, how many shots is that.. and they are all out of whack when it is over.

    Can you do it, of course, is it optimal, absolutely not, at least in my opinion, which that is a coffee pod will get you a cup.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    The portion the rifle rests on is filled with a pretty tightly rolled Viper hood, 3 camo veils and BDU set. The compression strap over that keeps it quite tight. When I used a Becker Patrol Pack, the top two outside pockets held poly pellet bags, which seemed to work quite well.

    The Alamo rest is very nice. A tripod with a sandbag in the center works well.

    Can a video be posted here? If I can get out early one morning, I'll run a tape shooting the 338 and post it somewhere.

    CT
     

    Lowlight

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    So what happens if you have to wear the Viper hood and shoot, your ruck is now different from before ?

    and don't round things react in a certain way off each when pressure is applied to them ?
     

    brianbrooks1000

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    I don't think, however, that the original poster on this thread is interested in good shooting. I think he's interested in convincing others on the rifle range that he's some kind of ninja, or something. Perhaps, he thinks that shooting from the ruck will impress folks.</div></div>

    The OPs question was honest and legitimate. Question asked, discussion followed. Good use of bandwidth

    What's that trend toward meanhearted here, check?
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The OPs question was honest and legitimate.</div></div>

    You might want to add "ignorant" to that statement, as in, "the OP's question was honest, and legitimate, but, ignorant". To help the OP, some here gave some very good advice on building stable positions, yet, the OP didn't care to respond, or acknowledge any of the advice offered. In other words he's not listening; and, that makes me think he's not really interested in good shooting.

    BTW, most here were sensitive to the OP's ignorance and encouraged the OP to consider the big picture, to learn something about sling usage and other artificial supports, which are clearly better than a "ruck" at supplementing bone for a steady position, no matter how far above ground. They wasted their time. I wasted mine; and, that's what makes me mean.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    When I put the hood on, the sandbag in the top pocket goes in it's place. With the compresion strap tied down, nothing seems to move. At least, if it moves, I can't tell the differance. If I have the full ghillie top packed, the BDU top I'm wearing and the sandbag replace it. However that may be changing the system, I don't seem to notice, the change is not big enough.

    Given the wide variation in field shooting positions (upslope, downslope, sideslope), whatever variance there may be in the ruck would seem to be lost in the other variables. The same thing seems to apply to shooting off a pod. The differance in the surface the pod is on would appear to be at least as big an issue as the shift in the ruck.

    I don't have a strong preferance for either, though I shoot mostly from a ruck. Just this morning I had to test an M1A match rifle for a client. No cheekpiece installed, so I've got more of a chin weld than a cheek weld, but I still got a 1.3 inch group at 200 and a 1.8 inch group at 300. 4 of the 5 at 300 were inside 1.25, I called the last shot a bit high right and it was on call. I don't think I shoot any much better than that, so if shooting off the ruck is hurting me, I'm damned if I can tell.

    I will say I've noticed that students seem to have more trouble getting into a position and staying there for 5 shots with a bipod than with a pack. The feet dig into the pea gravel, so they constantly alter the leags. Then the decide to shift onto the mat. Now they slide around a bit to get positioned and the feet stick on the mat and they reach up to adjust, and so it goes on and on and on.....

    The guys with a pack struggle to find the right packing to get the right height, but once that's done, they seem to settle down and stay there.

    I don't seem much of a differance one way or the other. Clearly, some people have a strong bias for one system. If what you've got works, I'm sure not going to try to get you to switch. On the other hand, if I find you struggling to shoot over your pack because it's so loose packed, I'm handing you a bipod. If you are taking 10 minutes to setup over your pod because you keep diddiling with the legs, I'll put you on my ruck and see if that's not easier for you.

    This is one of the areas where I don't think there is a purely right/wrong answer. I certainly have some suggestions as to how each system should be used. Lowlight has made some good points. Certainly filling your ruck with things like a balloon or precut foam or some such is nonsense, it's not a real world workable system. Noone is wasting space and weight on crap like that. What I carry in the ruck is all mission essential equipment. If that turns out to make it unusable as a rest, well, that's why the bipod and sandbags are in there.

    Given the discussion, I might just experiment with shooting groups with the same rifle and ammo each day for a week over the ruck and with a bipod and see if there is any measurable differance. The results of such a test would not hold very much signifigance, being only one data point, but it may still be interesting, beside, it would give me some excuse to shoot
    smile.gif


    CT
     

    WRM

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Having been the only one without a bipod in a big match, I'll share my $.02. I used a ruck and/or Redman beanbag, depending on position/shot.

    There were no stages where I felt that I had an advantage.

    There were few stages where I felt "equivalent" (e.g. kneeling position
    wink.gif
    ).

    There were many stages where I felt that I was at a disadvantage. Some shots required the gun to be higher than the pack/bag would allow = no rest. It was difficult to keep the gun on target during rapid fire stages, it cost me quite a bit of time to locate my target and re-position after the previous shot (especially when there are 30 targets posted, and you have to check the numbers prior to each and every shot).

    Having a bipod available is not a disadvantage. With a bipod mounted, you can still use a ruck and/or a beanbag if you prefer - more options.

    I don't mean to sound like I am making excuses, I knew what I was giving up (along with the fixed 10X scope), but I took it as a vast learning experience that I wouldn't trade for the world....

    Cheers,

    Bill
     

    stickboy

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    I am not trying to shut the thread down, but I do thank all that have replied in a constructive manor. I should have supplied more information in the beginning to not offend anyone.

    For clarity I am not intending to impress anyone, just trying to learn what I can and apply it to my interest. I have obviously not been a tactical shooter for long. My intial interest was to bolster my "hunting" marksmanship. Shooting from a bipod in the field has proven to be less fruitful than a ruck i have shot from over the past five years. The ruck i shoot from is packed with daily gear necessary for hunting with a mix of survival items, if needed. I intended to solicite info that may help me hone a technique that i could use in tactical competition and modify for hunting. Not that I feel i have to explain myself or anything.

    thanks again for the constructive posts.
     

    Bone

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Hey Serling Shooter who pissed in your Wheaties? Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the OP wants to hear the different techniques people have developed for shooting off a pack because that is what he does in the field? The question interested me. Some of the above posters did have good input but you need to check the condescending attitude. The OP wasn't asking whether you know a "better" way to shoot than off a ruck. Nor was he asking for your snide comments. He was asking the best way to shoot off a ruck.

    Personally I don't shoot off a bipod because I don't hunt with a bipod on any of my rifles. I want to be able to use what I typically have in the field to shoot as accurately as I can. The more gear you need the more likely you will forget something or have something fail on you. Using my pack as a rest works great for me, but then my end game is not to play at being a sniper. I shoot tactical to refine my shooting for killing critters of the four legged variety.

    It would have been good if you would have just answered the question.

    PS: OP posted while I was posting. Well whattya know...
     

    Arch

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Drop your ruck, stomp on the middle, place rifle gingerly in gap created and try to get comfortable in a position where your rifle does not want to wiggle. If you want, buy accoutrements for your pack that has a slot for the rifle. Or, a special pack designed to be a support. Nevertheless, as some tactical comps are now doing, you might find that you are in a position where you can see the target (and the target might see you) where you cannot lie prone behind a ruck. Thus, a bipod (funny how the military finally went there) plus experience with a pack, and any other positions and supports you and offers (somewhere it was said) "consistency" in your approach and you'll do just fine. I was taught to use red beans and rice in 2 OD socks in a buttpack. I still have my original 3 broomsticks shaved to a point on one end to hold the Earth. Damn, why do people get so dern serious about what they shoot off of? A ruck is not the best answer for comfort and consistency, but if I use it on my target the little Larue man mostly goes down. I would not shoot against a bipod shooter for precision though.
     

    Bone

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    hahahaha. That's nice rifle you got there Arch, but I bet if you attached a sling to that Troy-Bilt you'd be bench rest solid. :)
     

    ArmaHeavy

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    I'd have to agree with everything that Lowlight is saying.

    This whole Hollywood, shoot off the ruck, hit a target at 900 yards might work for Mark Wahlberg in the opening scene of the movie Shooter, but when you RUCK you get LOADSHIFT. Your gear MOVES inside. In order for a consistent shot you need a consistent platform. It doesn't work for a guy in the field...especially one who lives out of the ruck.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    All,

    Shooting with any artificial support to enhance the position's stability is, for the most part, about refining a technique with the device, for which, there is no right or wrong, just discovering what manner the device can be used effectively to get the job done.

    ArmaHeavy sees the difference between the fantasy and reality of it all-good post.
     

    stickboy

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    After the dust settled on the intial post I happened to catch an episode of "Sniper School" on the military channel. I noticed that at the time of filming, all typically used the metal base of their ruck. Interesting. No bipods. I am guessing that doctrine has either changed or the course simply addressed basics. Once you have them mastered, do what is best for the situation.

    Seems resonable.

    I guess.
     

    ah6oy

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stickboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After the dust settled on the intial post I happened to catch an episode of "Sniper School" on the military channel. I noticed that at the time of filming, all typically used the metal base of their ruck. Interesting. No bipods. I am guessing that doctrine has either changed or the course simply addressed basics. Once you have them mastered, do what is best for the situation.

    Seems resonable.

    I guess. </div></div>
    Paying attention like I have a long time you have to realize a lot of people just do what they have seen or figure is the best. A bipod is great for keeping the rifle sitting still until you add the variable firing. I prefer a sling. I'd use a ruck but the main thing you have to do is make sure the lay is not going to be causing any losses like just plain take off to one side or another or any sling mounts hanging up or what evers. No matter what I prefer a hand on the front of the rifle which a pod does not go with but you can do with a ruck or such. I wont say the army or any other part of the military at times does some wrong ways just to pump guys out of school or just do it. Oh no I'd never say that.
     

    ArmaHeavy

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    I'll say it first.

    THE ARMY IS GUILTY OF FOLLOWING HOLLYWOOD INTO COMBAT.

    There...I said it.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    First, as always, LowCrawl makes good points about it all. I too see it as "monkey see, monkey do", folks who sincerely take their "tactical" marksmanship seriously, whether for occupation or entertainment, but don't have enough understanding of basic marksmanship to get their good shooting off the ground--no pun intended.

    Folks who are trying out techniques with the bipod or "ruck" first need to recognize that the concept of bone/artificial support is an element of a steady position. The idea is about support for sight alignment and trigger control, not a rest for the rifle. Support means consistent control of the rifle from the time the trigger is pulled to the time the bullet exits the muzzle. Too often, rucks and bipods do not get the shooter desired results because they do not provide support from the time the trigger is pulled to the time recoil subsides. Thing is, the "monkey see" shooter has never thought about these sort of things.

    What I think is most interesting, however, is that while the loop or hasty sling is usually such a superior artificial support, for most any need, from the ground and up, folks here still overlook it. The conclusion I can only come to is that they simply don't know how to use the sling, or they would surely select it over obviously inferior, or unsuitable artificial supports.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    While the loop sling can indeed make for a very stable position, most snipers can't use it effectively. It's not because they don't know how, but because they must be in position for extended periods, sometimes many hours. A proper sling position just can't be maintained for very long periods.

    I can't agree that the sling is in any way "superior" to any other type of artificial support. It can perhaps deliver equal results, but it's not "superior" if equal skill in employing other support is used.

    The loop sling provides good support in any position where the support side elbow can be rested under the gun. The hasty sling provides little, if any, actual support, but it does keep the sling from swaying.

    This weekends XLR class made first rounds hits at 1740 yards, both from a bipod and off a ruck. Now I've seen David Tubb do that from prone slung, but I'm pretty sure he would not want to wait in that position for a couple hours waiting for the shot to appear.

    Cory Trapp
    Gunsite Academy, Inc.
     

    Lindy

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    And what Cory says about staying in position for a long time is often true of both military and L.E. snipers.

    I practice with a sling because it's a great support if you need to take a quick shot higher than you can get with prone or with a ruck for support.

    A proficient sniper should have the skills to use whatever the best support is which is the best tool for the job.

    That may be a bipod, a ruck, his spotter, the hood of a vehicle, a tree or other fixed object, or a sling. There is no one best solution for every situation.
     

    Tactical

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Wow, dont know how this missed me. Need to wake ip sooner.

    On shooting off anything.

    Its all about finding a solution to problem at hand

    Always build the most stable position you have time to.

    If I have a ruck its because I need to carry shit for the operation. If I dont need a bunch of stuff no need to carry empty ruck. This usually means water, food, clothing, ammo and tools to fix shit that breaks. The idea of an empty ruck with air bladder comes across to me like air screwing. Just not the preferred thing to do. Much better ways to get job done. I pack ruck so I have soft crap on outside so it makes good shooting rest for one well placed round when I cnat build a better position.

    Slings work great for fast shots in field becasue you can get them fast and they allow more heigth than a bipod many times. They suck on command fire type events where you amy have to lay on rifle for ten plus minutes

    Slings hold down muzzle flip better than letting front end of rifle free recoil. They tend to hold long range group on lighter rifles better for elevation for this reason. They also allow quick changes to otehr positions such as seated and kneeling, which a bipod just does not have ability to do.

    Bipods tend to hold better side to side groups because they are more solid that way than a sling

    Bipod muzzle flip can be taken out of picture by holding hrad and loading bipod legs with either forward push or digging legs into groung and pushing forward.

    If I have time I always go for Bipod prone and load the bipod legs to keep flip down.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    I can't agree that the sling is in any way "superior" to any other type of artificial support. It can perhaps deliver equal results, but it's not "superior" if equal skill in employing other support is used.

    The loop sling provides good support in any position where the support side elbow can be rested under the gun. The hasty sling provides little, if any, actual support, but it does keep the sling from swayin</div></div>

    The loop sling is superior to other artifical supports, for a mulitude of reasons. If you don't understand this then you don't know how to use one.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    Really? Care to elaborate on the reasons? I will say a sling is more versitile, that is, it can be used in more positions than any other single artificial support. That does not make it superior, since other supports can give better downrange results.

    Do you really think you can shoot better groups with a sling than say, bipod prone with a rear sandbag? or from sitting slung vs. sitting with a tripod mounted to the accessory rail?

    CT
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really? Care to elaborate on the reasons? I will say a sling is more versitile, that is, it can be used in more positions than any other single artificial support. That does not make it superior, since other supports can give better downrange results.

    Do you really think you can shoot better groups with a sling than say, bipod prone with a rear sandbag? or from sitting slung vs. sitting with a tripod mounted to the accessory rail?

    CT</div></div>

    Relaxing into a loop sling maintains more consistent control over the rifle, from the time the trigger is pulled until recoil subsides, than when using less practicable field expedient supports.
     

    Force_Multiplier

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    SS, don't get me wrong, I respect your ability, but if you can teach me how to use a sling better than a front and rear rest I'll give you the fee I was going to pay for Badlands/Rifles Only or whatever coarse I get to next spring.
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: force_multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SS, don't get me wrong, I respect your ability, but if you can teach me how to use a sling better than a front and rear rest I'll give you the fee I was going to pay for Badlands/Rifles Only or whatever coarse I get to next spring.</div></div>

    Teaching the use of the loop sling appears easy but is in fact the most difficult/frustrating thing to teach in my experience. Starting out, the student simply does not have a basis of understanding to know when the sling is "right". For example, a student may perceive a sling to be too tight when it's actually too loose.

    Proper sling usage is mastered through practice; and, sometimes the concept cannot be learned within the confinement of a singular training session. But, when the sling is, indeed, mastered, it's an awesome support to a steady position.

    Clearly, knowing how to use a sling, that's to say, getting the hang of it, may inspire you to use it over other supports-not because the sling provides more stability initially; but, because it limits recoil divergence not as controlable with the bipod.
     

    CoryT

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    Re: Rucksack as a rifle rest

    A properly used loop sling will certainly produce nice groups. However, for the most part, groups do not matter to a sniper. Sniping is much more about shooting one shot ten times than shooting ten shots once. Once uses the group to zero the rifle and as a test of the rifle/shooters general performance. The consistency I want is the abiity to get behind the rifle and place one shot within 1/2 moa of the POI, NO MATTER WHAT that position might look like.

    While shooting a small group is gratifying, the difference between shooting a 1 MOA group at 800 and a 1/2 MOA group at 800 only means the one bullet I shoot at the bad guy will potentially be 2 inches closer to the POA. That might cause a miss 1 in 100 shots. Would I rather shoot a 1/2 MOA group? Sure. But if that's what I need then I need to do it from whatever crappy made-up position in which I find myself on the battlefield, not slung up on an NRA square range.

    I do not mean to disparage the accomplishments of you or any other High Power match shooters. It's just a different game, which requires different tools. While much of the skill set transfers, and I encourage my sniper students to shoot matches, it's just not the same thing.