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Runout Problem with .223

B

bbowles

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 13, 2013
316
5
Missouri
Just got back into reloading and wanting to get into longer range shooting. Until I can get a true long range rifle I am using my DD AR15 in .223 to learn both reloading and shooting technique for this.

Been loading with good equipment. Some of my equipment is: redding big boss 2, Forster FL SIZER and Ultra benchrest seater, Sinclair pocket uniformer, Sinclair gen 2 deburring tool, Sinclair ultimate trimmer. Loading for Sierra 69 Match, Varget and CCI BR4 in new Unfired and unprimed batch of 500 Lake City 13 brass.

I know my AR and me is a limiting factor but i am taking a long range shooting course soon and trying to learn. I also know that all the steps I am doing in reloading won't be seen with this AR's limits but using it to learn.

I have a Sinclair neck sorter and concentricity gage to see how my equipment is doing. My steps have been tumble, inspect & case neck brush, FL size using Imperial wax and dry neck lube, tumble, debur flash holes, uniform primer pockets, trim cases to 1.750, chamfer and debur necks and case neck brush.

Next, I sorted by weight in 3 piles: 91.8-92.6, 92.7-93.5 and culls outside this. Was surprised that out of 500 pieces only13 was out of this 1.6 grain two batch sorts. Then I even sorted further by using Sinclair neck sorter for neck thickness variation and 26% was .001 or less, 54% was .001-.002 and 20% more than .002 (most of those were under .003).

Then I picked the 91.8-92.6 weight batch that was case neck sorted .001-.002 to start loading. All looked great after primed and charged until seated bullets with Forster ultra seater. I was told no use looking at neck concentricity until after fire formed these new cases so didn't check. After seated bullets I decided to check for concentricity of neck and bullet runout and was so disappointed to see most checked between .003-.006.

I am not sure if I did something wrong or sizer or seater problem or if won't get concentric necks and bullets until first firing if new cases. Am hopeful this is my answer but I doubt that. I would think if ran thru FL sizer with expander that they would be as concentric as they will ever be especially since I used some of the "good" cases with little neck thickness variation and .8 gr weight variation.

Not sure what to do to get better quality for when I start loading for a real long range rifle. Want to get my loading procedure figured out. Have done LOTS of reading books, manuals etc but need some expertise from you guys. I really appreciate your help in teaching me the art of hand loading. Thanks again.
 
Did you seat partially, spin the case 180 degrees, then finish seating? It helps concentricity.
 
One easy thing I'll suggest is keeping your shellholder and ram/shellholder mating surfaces clean. And be more concerned with how things shoot than anything else.
 
No. I had seen that but forgot to do that. Do you really think it cause .003-.006 runout? How did my cases get that out of whack after being sized? Could the seater be causing the necks to also be not concentric?
 
Big z,
I will check that. I got rid of my spring retainer that holds in shell holder. Replaced with rubber oring that read in zediker's book "reloading for competition". He said that spring cocked the shell holder slightly. Seems to float now.
 
My AR might not be able to tell difference of as much as .006 runout but I would think even it would show up bad. It normally has shot about 1 to 1.25 moa which I am pleased with for what it is. I can even "see" wobble on the Sinclair concentricity spinner. Just was discouraged after working so hard to do all right.
 
Resize your case as you normally would and then measure the case neck runout. Now remove the expander button, full length resize the case again and hold for three seconds at the top of the ram stroke. Lower the ram and rotate the case 180 degrees, resize again holding for three seconds. Now measure neck runout again, did the runout decrease after the second sizing?

Pausing at the top of the ram stroke reduces the brass spring back and tells the brass to "stay put". You should have more constant cartridge headspace readings and less runout using this method. Also if the expander button is locked down off center it will increase runout and why you check runout with the expander button removed.

Just remember you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear, meaning you need good quality brass if you want less runout. Any variation in case wall thickness and neck thickness will increase runout. Case neck thickness and the expander button diameter can increase runout, and why some people prefer neck bushing dies. You need to see if the brass is causing the problem, the sizing operation or seating, so each step needs to be checked.

neckcenter_zps94286f86.jpg
 
bbowles said:
No. I had seen that but forgot to do that. Do you really think it cause .003-.006 runout? How did my cases get that out of whack after being sized? Could the seater be causing the necks to also be not concentric?
Click to expand...

Like bigedp51 said, the case itself is the primary cause of runout. The bullet will follow the path of least resistance down the neck. Having good brass helps. Neck turning, inside reaming, annealing helps. Spinning the case while seating helps. But don't get hung up on it when you are shooting through a factory chamber.

Contrary to public opinion, when a round fires the bullet does not come out of the case first. Everything moves simultaneously: the bullet, the case, the gun, you, etc. So all the work you put in to start the bullet straight goes out the window as the bullet leaves the case and wobbles down that .228" diameter NATO spec throat.
 
bigedp51,
You gave me lots to think about. I took some time to digest it and have more questions. I apologize for any dumb questions I have. Thanks for your patience!

I have already sized and prepped all 500 cases before starting to load. You suggested I resize my cases. Will resizing cases already ready to prime test what you want me to do? Will it potentially straighten things out or are these sized cases already "set" ?

When I remove the expander how will the inside case neck be right to hold bullet with enough tension? Assume after I do this will just tell me if the expander is causing my runout problem.

I can see how this "pause" at the top will help. You mentioned more constant cartridge headspace. Now this brass is new unfired brass and has starting headspace of about 1.444 (about .018 less than fire formed brass). Is the fact that this new brass has never been fired have anything to do with this runout? Sinclair said to not worry about measuring runout with concentricity gage until fired brass. I would think dies should still get runout right?

As to brass quality I was concerned with LC 13 brass being up to long range standards but have been surprised as to case neck thickness and weight variation. Was similar to the 100 piece lot of Lapua I have started with. I need to go back and check some of my Lapua loaded ammo to see runout. I think it was in neighborhood of .001-.003 bullet runout. I don't get why LC had just as good of weight variance and neck thickness variation but still have more runout?

I have read somewhere a similar method to yours. I will definitely do all as you have said. Just want to make sure I understand before jumping in and messing more up. Thanks again for getting me on the right track.
 
918v,
I agree with all you said. I am just trying to learn how to make top flight ammo so that when I get a top flight gun I can't blame misses on ammo or the rifle. I bought the Sinclair neck sorter to be able to identify my best brass in each lot so I don't have to neck turn or anneal. If the case is causing my problem then will sell them or just use for short range stuff. Thanks for the info.
 
Another thing is I am using about 26.1 gr of Varget which is compressed load. My Forster ultra seater with floating stem doesn't handle compressed loads well (Forster said that too). So I have to seat and then measure and then turn down seater another .004 or so to get to 2.257 or so to accomodate magazine. Could compressed loads cause runout issues?
 
Just measured some things on both Lapua (once loaded and fired) and new LC 13 brass: Lapua: avg loaded neck runout-.001 (.0005-.0014 range), bullet runout avg-.0015 (range .0007-.0029); LC 13: avg loaded neck runout-.0025 (.0015-.0032 range), bullet runout avg-.0050 (.0034-.0065 range).

Will try what BigEdp51 after he clarifies some things for me. Thanks again guys!
 
bbowles

I have two AR15 rifles and a bolt action Savage, all three rifles are stock factory made rifles.

1. I would NEVER shoot Lapua brass in a AR15 rifle, it is a waste of very good brass.
2. I would shoot Lapua brass in my bolt action Savage, BUT it may be overkill in a commercial factory barrel
3. I do sort my cases by runout and the best cases are used in my Savage bolt action and my AR15 A2 HBAR
4. Anything over .003 runout is used in my AR15 carbine as practice/blasting ammo.
5. Measure factory loaded ammunition runout before you get excited about your reloads.

I reduced the diameter of my expander button .002 for loading the majority of my AR15 ammo to increase neck tension rather than crimp. By doing this the expander button just touches the inside of the neck on my blasting ammo. For the AR15 A2 HBAR I use cases that I have turned the neck on but the runout is over .001. On these cases the expander button barely touch the insides of the neck. On my bolt action I use a full length bushing die and much less neck tension.

Bottom line, you remove the expander button to see if neck runout improves, then you look for the reason "WHY" the expander button is increasing runout. By neck turning and just using a standard die if you want .003 neck tension the expander button is not needed. Neck tension in the .001 to .002 range then the expander button is required without neck turning. You can also full length resize your cases without the expander button and use a expander die in a second operation for neck tension.

The Army Marksmanship Unit considers any runout .003 and under good enough for competition. If you don't have a custom made scoped bolt action rifle with tighter chamber all the fussing we do with our cases is questionable at best.

Life was simpler with only one set of dies and no neck thickness and runout gauges, I could always blame the large groups on drinking too much coffee, bad karma or needing new glasses. Now I have brass OCD and too many dies and a lot of brass in the practice/blasting category to shoot in my carbine.

dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg


When all else fails with excess runout you can get the Hornady Concentricity Tool (upper left) and bend your ammunition into submission.

runout003_zpsd19b7cc3.jpg
 
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Bigedp51

I am sorry for all the questions and realize I am wasting my time for my AR. However, I am trying to learn the finer points of loading. I ran a couple of cases thru again with expander loose and pulled ram to top and then down into expander and then back up slightly to get tension inside neck and then tightened expander to try to get centered. However, this didn't help. In fact hurt a couple which makes me think expander hard to get straight.

I tried without expander and some better some worse. Not by much either way.

I have about .002 neck tension on these loaded LC13 cases. I don't want to have neck turn for now. That's why I bought neck sorter to cull bad cases along with weight sort.

So I am finding myself overwhelmed now. Not sure what to do.

Checked runout on factory hornady match 75 gr and neck runout was .0015 to .004 but bullet runout was about .025 avg. Far better than my .005 reloads with this LC 13.
 
Bigedp51

I am sorry for all the questions and realize I am wasting my time for my AR. However, I am trying to learn the finer points of loading. I ran a couple of cases thru again with expander loose and pulled ram to top and then down into expander and then back up slightly to get tension inside neck and then tightened expander to try to get centered. However, this didn't help. In fact hurt a couple which makes me think expander hard to get straight.

I tried without expander and some better some worse. Not by much either way.

I have about .002 neck tension on these loaded LC13 cases. I don't want to have neck turn for now. That's why I bought neck sorter to cull bad cases along with weight sort.

So I am finding myself overwhelmed now. Not sure what to do.

Checked runout on factory hornady match 75 gr and neck runout was .0015 to .004 but bullet runout was about .025 avg. Far better than my .005 reloads with this LC 13.
 
Bigedp51,
I will try to see where the runout is occurring. Do I go thru the steps on same LC brass already sized or wait to shoot some of the loaded LC or go back to my lapua brass and test to see if runout still good after sizing and seating? Thanks again!
 
I did an experiment several years ago with runout. I used a Redding bushing die and sized the necks down in .001" increments. Long story short: the more you size the neck, the less concentric it gets. If you have a benchrest chamber that allows the neck to expand by only a few thousands of an inch, like .003" or less, then you will not have any concentricity issues. If you are trying to size the neck down by more than .003", you will have some runout issues.

A typical factory chamber is .007" larger at the neck than a loaded round . A typical F/L die sizes a fire-formed neck down by .017", then the expander ball opens up that neck by .008". It is amazing that rounds come out as straight as they do.
 
bigedp51,
Thanks again for your info and patience to help me! Will take some time to soak up all you have told me and these links to help me understand.
 
918v,
Thanks for that info. I will compare that to my notes for my rifle. I guess after all this I am amazed at the numbers I have got in the Lapua vs LC 13 cases (see post #12). The Lapua is way better on runout. What I don't understand (actually the more I think I get it the less I understand anything) is why the Sinclair neck sorter had similar neck thickness variation on both Lapua and LC 13 yet the runout was world's apart.
 
Could be because the Lapua has better case wall consistency at the case head. So when it fireforms the case walls expand evenly all the way around. So when you spin it, the neck is better centered.
 
918v,
That sounds logical. This is both frustrating and exciting all in one! Thanks again.
 
OP, have read with interest your thread. I would offer the following info:

1. If loading the best ammo you can is the goal, get a Redding bushing FL die, and a collection of bushings. Remove expander ball from the decapper if present. If concerned with neck ID, before neck turning ( good idea BTW), run carbide expander thru to hold size constant before neck turning. There is no need to expand fired cases, just to slightly resize the case body, and resize the neck to provide perfectly constant neck tension. Polishing neck ID isn't a bad idea either.

2. Although it is a PITA, turning necks is a must - the release of the bullet from the case must be as consistent as possible, and neck tension is as if not more important than concentricity. Use micrometer, not calipers - you are looking for consistentcy in the tenths, calipers don't get you that accuracy. This is important even without a tight neck chamber.

3. Get a seating die that you can adjust the seating depth to .001, doesn't have to have a micrometer top, but must positively lock.

4. Get or make a check gage that you can measure setback against, when processing fired cases, limit setback to .001. I usually make one from a barrel stub with the same reamer I chambered with.

I know this sounds complicated, but the style die you have now is made for mass quantities of loading, not just loading the most perfect rounds possible. The accurateshooter site has some pretty good articles on benchrest and F class reloading, those guys do a "perfect" job, or not competitive.
 
MikeeBooshay,
I am trying to decide what level to take this to. Only reason wanted to do all this for my AR was for practice when I get a true long range rifle. I don't want to order a custom rifle until I get this part down. What if I wanted to get very good accuracy but not perfect loads what would be your advice for steps to follow? Thanks for chiming in. Amazes me how technical this stuff is.
 
Turning necks for a factory chamber is counter productive. You're thinning out the necks further which works the brass more which hurts concentricity.
 
What kind of chamber does a GA Precision or Surgeon rifle have? Will I need to neck turn etc for these rifles?
 
918v,
What steps would you suggest to get the most out of this particular AR? It shoots 1-1.25 MOA with factory Hornady Match 75 gr ammo. Thanks.
 
To all who have helped me,

I am sorry I am all over the place. I can research these methods but am confused as to a step by step for different goals in mind. Am sure each of you are right but just talking about loading for different goals.

So guess what I am asking is a step by step for different goals in mind (mainly just the steps in case prep) for loading: 1) "perfect" ammo 2) very good ammo for factory &/or AR rifles. Also which kind of rifle will require which level of loading. I can find lots that will help with how to load but don't know when I should be neck turning, annealing, using bushing dies, expander dies, removing expander, etc. The WHEN to use what methods is what is making my head spin.

Again, I really do appreciate all the help from you guys. Sorry that I am such a pain!
 
bbowles said:
918v,
What steps would you suggest to get the most out of this particular AR? It shoots 1-1.25 MOA with factory Hornady Match 75 gr ammo. Thanks.
Click to expand...

69SMK
About 24.5grs of Varget
CCI primer
2.260" OAL
FL sized cases

*Trickle in the powder slowly through a long drop tube. It will settle better in the case and will make it easier to seat the bullet.

Make sure the inside of the neck is free of case lube. That load should shoot .5" at 100 yards. It's a go to load. It shoots good in a lot of guns. My brother recently got a POS upper from a no name vendor. It shoots .5" with this load and it isn't even free floated!
 
BBowles, you asked a couple good questions, but changed the objective, so we'll start there.

For your factory chambered AR, you're probably about right where you need to be already. There is enough inherent inaccuracy in there, if you are 1.25 MOA with factory ammo, you are pretty good. You might get better with playing around with seating depth, but likely not, the chamber is usually so deep, you can't get to the lands and still fit rounds in the mag. Just focus on loading safe, consistent ammo.

Next step - custom tactical/hunting rifle. Still usually does not require neck turned brass, but will be tighter than factory by a bunch. I do like to take a very light neck turn on these anyway, as you have discovered, all necks are not the same. This is more of a cleanup pass than a true turning. You'll find some brass has thicker necks, like Lapua, only trim it enough to be consistent. Focus on tuning loads to the rifle, how much powder, which bullet, loaded how long. A few, like .003 thousandths, makes a difference in group size, when seating bullets, start close to the lands, and go until jammed if you are OK with that. If that doesn't get results, go the other way, or change bullets. I've got rifles that won't shoot Barnes, but love Nosler, I have some that hate Nosler, love Barnes. Only you can figure that out.

Lastly, for competition, like BR or F class, you get to true tight necked, "most perfect I can make the ammo" scenario. That was your original question I thought.

You really ought to consider getting the rifle now. Get the rifle, start putting rounds on paper and steel, and learn to load for a platform that will give you honest feedback. You'll never know if you made a .5" improvement, if you are shooting from a 1.5" platform. You have spent enough in reloading stuff, to have a pretty good 308 bolt gun, or a 6.5 CM. Both of those are great for learning to shoot as well as reload - heck, Hornady tells you on the box of 6.5 what the recipe is, it's pretty conservative, you might wish to push it harder, or not.

Get out and shoot man, it is the best way to get better!
 
Mikeebooshay,
First, love the nickname! I too am a waterboy fan! Assume that where came from.

Second, great breakdown of varying objectives! Sorry about me shifting gears in this thread. Thanks!
 
The most easiest way to figure out where your getting runout is to check runout first on form fired brass, then resize them and check runout on the brass. My guess is the sizing die is putting all the runout on the brass.
 
Update on my LC 13 loads that I so disappointed in for runout (see #12). Shot 14 3 shot groups mainly for pressure testing. Seven groups with rem 7 1/2 and 7 CCI BR4 primers. Each of groups of 7 started with varget 24.6-26.4 in .3 incr. Found that some were very good groups. Only 3 shot groups mainly for pressure test.

Found that some extractor ring marks on only CCI groups starting at 25.2-26.4 but not any other signs. Wasn't on every case even at same charge. Measured case head expansion too. First load on both primers was about .3748. And found 24.9-25.8 was about .3756. Top 2 charges in both primers went to about .3760. Not sure how much is too much.
 
At the point you started seeing ejector ring marks.

Do you have a load manual? How did you come up with that data?
 
918v,
I definitely want to be safe. My load data came from Sierra AR section and online hodgdon data. They were almost identical. Start Varget 24.6-26.1.

I am pretty sure I see small circle near outer edge of case head on factory ammo too. Will check. Primers were flattening on the upper end but not excessive. The expansion numbers didn't seem bad. Varying opinions on this. How should I compare these numbers and what is excessive?
 
I checked some factory fired brass and some had same ejector hole as was getting with some of LC 13 brass. Not every piece but most of hornady match did. But others did not. Not even every piece of LC 13 had that ejector hole print. Even with same charge level.
 
Trust me. I am not trying to argue. Just to get understanding of reading pressure. Don't want to blow my head off.
 
Some more info to help with pressure diagnosis...I chronoed all (3 shot avg). CCI loads 24.6-26.4: smooth approx 30 fps incr on each .3 gr incr from 2575 to 2730. Rem primer w same charges: 2490 to 2600. I had said it was extractor ring marks initially. Not sure I have right term but it is small round mark on edge from the pin like thing on front of bolt face toward front.
 
Sorry for shotgunning info at you all! Just measured headspace on these since was its first firing of new LC 13 brass. New was just 1.444. Now rem primed start charge: 1.457. High charge: 1.457. CCI start: 1.460. Max charge: 1.459. Avg Lapua after first fired:1.460.

Also forgot to say on last post that factory chronoed data: horn match 75: 2410. Winch match 69: 2505
 
bbowles said:
Update on my LC 13 loads that I so disappointed in for runout (see #12). Shot 14 3 shot groups mainly for pressure testing. Seven groups with rem 7 1/2 and 7 CCI BR4 primers. Each of groups of 7 started with varget 24.6-26.4 in .3 incr. Found that some were very good groups. Only 3 shot groups mainly for pressure test.

Found that some extractor ring marks on only CCI groups starting at 25.2-26.4 but not any other signs. Wasn't on every case even at same charge. Measured case head expansion too. First load on both primers was about .3748. And found 24.9-25.8 was about .3756. Top 2 charges in both primers went to about .3760. Not sure how much is too much.
Click to expand...

I use any case head expansion is too much a half grain ago on a case this size. Your velocities will be a lot closer to SAAMI and much less than the internet though.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfR.pdf

There are enough people who aren't that strict that still have both eyes and all their fingers that you might not need to either. I just don't see the point of killing brass that I put some time into for another 100-150 fps.

That being said, ejector and extractor marks on AR brass can happen at lower pressures with over gassing. It's straight forward enough to solve with an adjustable gas block. Set them up so they reliably lock the bolt back and then a little more. Set up like that, I can run the same load through both my ARs and bolt guns. That's a play gun strategy, not a duty or self defense gun strategy.

If we can go back to your original question on bullet run out, I checked some of my ammo to use as examples. I checked 10 pieces in each batch. All were run through the same resizing die, a Dillon trim die, with some differences in pre and post processing.

First loading of out of the bag Winchester, all were in the .002-.008" range. There just isn't enough sizing going on to straighten the case. This brass as manufactured isn't as concentric as brass fired in a decent chamber.

First loading on my part of Hornady range brass donated by the local SWAT team. All brass had been fired through real M4s. 9 were less than .003, one was .006".

Old pre Obama LC01 brass fired 4 times out of ARs and a bolt gun, all were less than .002". This brass was sorted by concentricity after its first firing and everything over .003" discarded. It was then neck turned and weight sorted into 3 x 2 grain lots. Probably ~30% of it left the herd in the concentricity and weight sorting. Anything that looked weird during the neck turning also left. Too much or too little cutting, or too much on one side. This brass is also annealed in a Grizzly machine set up with Temlaq after every firing. It gives velocity spreads for 10 shots below 20 fps every time, and often below 15 fps.

The Dillon trim die is an unadjustable for neck size bushing die. If I'm loading flat based bullets, I'll use the Lyman M die because it doesn't hurt the sizing or concentricity as badly as expander balls. The Hornady brass was also crimped into it's cannelure with a Lee factory crimp die. It's the only load I crimp.

I also checked some Lapua 6br brass I'm fire forming to 6 brx in an AR. No bullets, but all the neck run outs were below .0015" unfired and fire formed. The fire formed brass hasn't been sized again yet, so you can get brass out of an AR without killing it.

Good luck. Unfortunately you've taken the red pill from the Matrix by starting to measure things. It's going to hurt for awhile, but in the end it'll be worth it.
 
I am going to have to take some time to soak this all in. You guys are scaring me to death. Have loaded years ago for rem 700 bolt gun but new to AR. Don't even understand how gas system works exactly. Deeper I get in more confused I am.

Don't get how could be hot load at only .3 gr above min per Sierra and Hodgdon. But then I hear that I am over pressured and yet my velocities are too low. Don't doubt anything you guys trying to teach me but my head is spinning and maybe getting ready to blow my head off if over pressured.

I started on a mission to start learning how to load for long range accuracy. But I have taken us off on a tangent with pressure on my loads.

May need to just go shoot factory stuff? Guess I will learn but hope I don't lose an extremity in the process.

From a Discouraged wanna be long range shooter and loader. Wish there were someone around that I could pay to teach me if need be. Cheaper than a trip to the hospital.

Thanks guys! I won't give up. Just got to take short break to let my head stop spinning.
 
Back to your original mission to reduce runout...on a standard press with a threaded die hole, I like to put an o-ring under the die lock ring and then tighten the die into the press. The o-ring will allow the die to float just slightly to help it align better with the case. This is the same principle that the Forster Co-ax press uses with the slide-in die slot and the floating spring-loaded jaws instead of conventional case holders. I load on one of the Forster's, and really like this setup.
 
Last edited:
I don't think I should be focusing on original question until I figure out if the loads are safe. If the starting load from 2 known manuals are too hot then I have real problem. Safety must come before load concentricity! Just don't know how to make sure am safe. Have about 600 rounds thru this gun with no problems (about 200 reloads). If anyone had any advice on my pressure issue or where I can get help would be very much appreciated.
 
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