As stated in my earlier post it was dictated by the European directive. I know nothing else about it aside from that to give a more detailed explanation.
Rifle Scopes S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!
- Thread starter AnschutzNerd
- Start date
As stated in my earlier post it was dictated by the European directive. I know nothing else about it aside from that to give a more detailed explanation.
S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!
I get the feeling that Jerry is on our side, but that SB is a big company and all he can do is take his orders like a loyal employee is expected to do.
But I fear that this new SB business model, glimpses of which we see when the drapes are parted and the light shines through, is more about making the safe money by selling two hundred dollar toilet seats to the Pentagon, and less about spending on R&D in a free market with a riskier basis for return on investment.
I get the feeling that Jerry is on our side, but that SB is a big company and all he can do is take his orders like a loyal employee is expected to do.
But I fear that this new SB business model, glimpses of which we see when the drapes are parted and the light shines through, is more about making the safe money by selling two hundred dollar toilet seats to the Pentagon, and less about spending on R&D in a free market with a riskier basis for return on investment.
Jerry R.
With what S&B has done in the last year, (all the things Graham mentions above) its no wonder Companies like Vortex and Bushnell can come in offer a lifetime warranty, great customer service, at the same time support the shooting sports, listen to shooters and make appropriate changes. and get this -------- offer all this at a price 1/3 the cost of S&B.
S&B lost me along time ago!!!!
With what S&B has done in the last year, (all the things Graham mentions above) its no wonder Companies like Vortex and Bushnell can come in offer a lifetime warranty, great customer service, at the same time support the shooting sports, listen to shooters and make appropriate changes. and get this -------- offer all this at a price 1/3 the cost of S&B.
S&B lost me along time ago!!!!
Mendy... You beat me to it!
That Youtube clip is a humurous and fitting example of where this thread has gone. As humourous as I find that clip, It does highlight a message that rings true: A written "guarantee" makes a man feel all warm and toasty inside. It's just that simple and especially true for a Civilian purchaser that will never use a PM-II in a Police Marksman role.
Jerry -
Thank You! A representitave of a very well known brand, for replying to Customer and potential Customer inquiries on this public forum. That in and of itself, says a lot about Schmidt and Bender product service in the United States! Schmidt and Bender products have quite a following on this forum and and are certainly adorned by those who will never own one due to personal budget constraints. My infrequent use of S&B PM-II products has impressed me to the point that I "was" starting to comparison shop vendors on SnipersHide for a 3-20x optic made by your Employer. Unfortunately, those good impressions do not change the fact that I have recently learned: Schmidt and Bender reduced their written parts and labor "guarantee" from 30-years to 2-years. Wether or not you agree: Your Employer will lose sales because of this policy change.
I applaud your personal commitment for going above and beyond to provide a Service to US customers although I personally need, that "guarantee on the box" stating, a warranty duration longer than 2-years. Top-tier products are supposed to be fault free in a perfect world and I do not know if the US arm of S&B will be as accomodating to manufacturing discrepencies 10-years from now.
This thread has provided me with the realization that I will feel more comfortable purchasing an optic of another brand due to a better written warranty duration.
Find details of the competition, in writing, below. I will continue to look upon S&B PM-II products fondly as I search for the 10-ring through, what will probably amount to, another Nightforce optic in my safe.
Best Regards,
AnschutzNerd
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▶ 15. What is the warranty on Nightforce Riflescopes?
All current model Nightforce Optics (excluding MIL-SPEC optics which carry a 10 year warranty) come with a Limited Lifetime Warranty which covers mechanical defects in materials and workmanship in the optical and mechanical components and is fully transferable. Exclusions of this warranty include intentional or accidental damage, abuse, misuse, modifications, and improper mounting.
That being said, if you manage to break a Nightforce we want to hear about it. If you need a repair performed, please contact our Customer Service Department at 208-476-9814.
FAQ?s | Nightforce Optics, Inc.
That Youtube clip is a humurous and fitting example of where this thread has gone. As humourous as I find that clip, It does highlight a message that rings true: A written "guarantee" makes a man feel all warm and toasty inside. It's just that simple and especially true for a Civilian purchaser that will never use a PM-II in a Police Marksman role.
Jerry -
Thank You! A representitave of a very well known brand, for replying to Customer and potential Customer inquiries on this public forum. That in and of itself, says a lot about Schmidt and Bender product service in the United States! Schmidt and Bender products have quite a following on this forum and and are certainly adorned by those who will never own one due to personal budget constraints. My infrequent use of S&B PM-II products has impressed me to the point that I "was" starting to comparison shop vendors on SnipersHide for a 3-20x optic made by your Employer. Unfortunately, those good impressions do not change the fact that I have recently learned: Schmidt and Bender reduced their written parts and labor "guarantee" from 30-years to 2-years. Wether or not you agree: Your Employer will lose sales because of this policy change.
I applaud your personal commitment for going above and beyond to provide a Service to US customers although I personally need, that "guarantee on the box" stating, a warranty duration longer than 2-years. Top-tier products are supposed to be fault free in a perfect world and I do not know if the US arm of S&B will be as accomodating to manufacturing discrepencies 10-years from now.
This thread has provided me with the realization that I will feel more comfortable purchasing an optic of another brand due to a better written warranty duration.
Find details of the competition, in writing, below. I will continue to look upon S&B PM-II products fondly as I search for the 10-ring through, what will probably amount to, another Nightforce optic in my safe.
Best Regards,
AnschutzNerd
************************************************
▶ 15. What is the warranty on Nightforce Riflescopes?
All current model Nightforce Optics (excluding MIL-SPEC optics which carry a 10 year warranty) come with a Limited Lifetime Warranty which covers mechanical defects in materials and workmanship in the optical and mechanical components and is fully transferable. Exclusions of this warranty include intentional or accidental damage, abuse, misuse, modifications, and improper mounting.
That being said, if you manage to break a Nightforce we want to hear about it. If you need a repair performed, please contact our Customer Service Department at 208-476-9814.
FAQ?s | Nightforce Optics, Inc.
S&B : New 3-27x PMII -- On the site!
You know, I am not an economist by any stretch, so I could be wrong, but it sure looks as if SB has flat-out conceded market share to companies like Bushnell. That usually doesn't happen willingly, unless it has been decided at the uppermost levels of management that the company either intends to make the majority of its profits in some other area, or by using some other business model - like, for example, selling fewer scopes at much higher prices and front-loading their profits. Someone tell me that I am wrong...
You know, I am not an economist by any stretch, so I could be wrong, but it sure looks as if SB has flat-out conceded market share to companies like Bushnell. That usually doesn't happen willingly, unless it has been decided at the uppermost levels of management that the company either intends to make the majority of its profits in some other area, or by using some other business model - like, for example, selling fewer scopes at much higher prices and front-loading their profits. Someone tell me that I am wrong...
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honestly, i think if S&B worded their new warranty policy differently, we would not be having this discussion. That said, I think i understand their take, if something is defective it will be evident within the first couple of years. After that, if something goes wrong (more than likely) it will be from user error, and as such it will be fixed for a fee. I like to think S&B would consider such instances on a case by case basis. People, need to understand that a warranty is not the same as a guarantee.
I agree. Also, part of the explanation may be cultural. If you have done business in Germany, you know what I mean.
So far I have learned a bit from this thread, although barely anything about any new optic offering.
btw A10xrifle, agenda much? I expected better.
btw A10xrifle, agenda much? I expected better.
What agenda is that, Please fill me in. I have shot every top scope maker there is, I know how they compare, I believe Schmidt and Bender has a good product. But I also know who supports the shooters and who listen's to shooters. US Optics has always listened and supported as well and finally Nightforce also on a campaign to listen to the shooters in the field. I used Bushnell and Vortex in my analogy as they are new to the market and in a few years have caputured a huge part of it but doing the things S&B has seemed to give up on.
Someone please tell me how Schmidt and Bender can sell a scope for $5400 cut margins, cut employee salary. And call this good business. Im with Graham on this one it doesn't make sense.
If my company did this id be out of business and a laughing stock.
You can disagree with me, but there is no agenda.
Someone please tell me how Schmidt and Bender can sell a scope for $5400 cut margins, cut employee salary. And call this good business. Im with Graham on this one it doesn't make sense.
If my company did this id be out of business and a laughing stock.
You can disagree with me, but there is no agenda.
Jerry / S&B as a firm - thank you for creating these. At a minimum this tech may yield better optics at a lower price point for the masses 5 - 10 yrs from now. Currently, for those that run multi caliber platforms capable of extreme distances this may represent an opportunity.
George, please tell me who you are referring to? Sounds as if you have us confused with another company or you have received some horribly inaccurate info.
Regarding the scopes costing 1/3 less that you're comparing to an S&B. Let me ask you this? Could you build a $3,600 rifle and sell it to me for $1,200? If so I think we both know what kind of rifle that would be don't we?
If this were the reason, and I'm not saying it was, I can understand S&B Europe not wanting to be on the hook for years and years to repair scopes that are being beat every day by the employees of various government agencies. So in that context I can understand the two year warranty.
And I understand a lot of folks have the money and desire to outfit themselves with the best they feel their money can buy -- even if one pays a lot for that last bit of performance. I'm sure you'll have customers.
But for others, their take is going to be negative. If you're using your PMII for work every day, yes, I believe a defect will probably show up in two years. If you have a regular job and other shooting interests, it may not. Thus, as others have posted above, S&B's warranty and pricing schemes will likely drive larger segments of the market to other makers who cater to their priorities.
As you say Jerry, the scope is not for everyone. I'm sure all S&B's decisions are made as being in what management perceives as the best interests of the company. Time will tell if they are right -- and no, I'm not suggesting they are not. Half the public thinks they know everything and the other half thinks the successful business knows better. Yet some businesses -- with good products -- continue to confound the naysayers and thrive, while others with good products and favourable press find themselves shuttering their doors or selling off regardless. I don't presume to know enough to speculate here how things go long term. Personally, I like options and competition. It only helps consumers when a company raises the bar. Though with this pricing I'm out as a civilian shooter as it would take a life-or-death justification to convince my wife I needed one over offerings in the $3500-$1500 without getting slapped for crazy talk. As you say -- not for everyone.
I wish the company well and thank you for being willing to participate here.
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Is it POSSIBLE that S&B was listening to someone other than people who will never be happy no matter what you give them? Maybe they are listening to guys whose lives depend on these optics... Guys who KNOW what works versus what they THINK will work... Strange concept it seems to some, if not most....
you brand whores and cheerleaders remind me of those dumbass liberals in your way of thinking. as for jerry at S&B I think he's a great guy and good to deal with, but what happens when jerry no longer works there? or is directed buy Europe to quit doing what he's been doing to take care of customers. you cheerleaders who think nothing of S&B going from 30 yrs to 2 yrs of warranty is beyond me. if you think that the quality is still there and S&B knows there scopes are of the same quality then why would they all of the sudden go to 2 yrs? I personally think its because of the US military contracts and them knowing that there products were going to be beat to shit in the field and don't have as much confidence in there product as you think. the bottom line is that we stupid Americans have been conditioned to accept that from big companies.50 years or so ago you paid less money for products that would last a life time. these days you spend hundred times over that price for shit that will maybe last a few years. and we accept that, that's the problem. There's no way that S&B is using materials of a higher quality with the exception of maybe glass than all the other scope makers that are 1/3 of the price. S&B demands a premium for there name and reputation. as does GAP for there rifles but that's not to say that other gunsmiths cant build an equally accurate and quality rifle as them for less money. he demands a premium because of his name and reputation but let him quit standing behind his product and see how many of his customers just continue buying anyway. S&B is no different there has to be a reason for the reduction in warranty like I stated above, but in the civilian market the S&B scopes will most likely not be treated and abused like the military will, so I would understand somewhat the 2 yr warranty for the military contract but you can not make me see a reason for the 2yr in the civilian market.
Jerry Feel free to call me anytime, Ive always enjoyed conversations Ive had with you. Ill freely share the information I have heard and where it was heard. Im really not looking for drama here guys. And Im well aware of most if not all S&B's military contracts. Still does not justify the price or the lack of a good warranty.
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I would expect S&B's costs to be substantially higher just due to local labor laws and the exchange rate. That's not something they have much control over.
My experience with S&B has been good. the 5-25x isn't perfect but it suits me better than anything else I've run into. I've only owned 3 and sent a couple back and had them returned in under 2 weeks, which I really appreciate because I'm currently waiting for a brand new scope from another company to be returned for repair that I sent in 14 weeks ago.
but I still agree with George. I calculated the other day that by the end of this month I'll have shot or directed 33 matches in the past 33 months and I think I've seen Bushnell and/or Vortex people at almost every one of them. (and their scopes on the prize table) That makes a big difference to me and I spent money to own several Bushnell and Vortex optics because of it.
I find it somewhat humorous that I've been debating the purchase of a $10k LRF for features I might use once/month and "need" almost never, but just wouldn't consider spending $5000 on a scope I'd use almost every day. I'm certainly not the 'target market' for either product.
My experience with S&B has been good. the 5-25x isn't perfect but it suits me better than anything else I've run into. I've only owned 3 and sent a couple back and had them returned in under 2 weeks, which I really appreciate because I'm currently waiting for a brand new scope from another company to be returned for repair that I sent in 14 weeks ago.
but I still agree with George. I calculated the other day that by the end of this month I'll have shot or directed 33 matches in the past 33 months and I think I've seen Bushnell and/or Vortex people at almost every one of them. (and their scopes on the prize table) That makes a big difference to me and I spent money to own several Bushnell and Vortex optics because of it.
I find it somewhat humorous that I've been debating the purchase of a $10k LRF for features I might use once/month and "need" almost never, but just wouldn't consider spending $5000 on a scope I'd use almost every day. I'm certainly not the 'target market' for either product.
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Jerry, I've always admired how you're always willing to help and give out info. But it seems like this thread has really turned to shit. Please just drop it before it gets way out of hand.
The cost of producing a product includes the cost of materials and labor PLUS the cost of the R&D for that product.
I'd imagine the expense of developing a new scope with a 9x mag factor and the optical characteristics expected of an S&B to be quite high, and that cost is amortized into the price of every scope of that model manufactured.
Joe
I'd imagine the expense of developing a new scope with a 9x mag factor and the optical characteristics expected of an S&B to be quite high, and that cost is amortized into the price of every scope of that model manufactured.
Joe
These are not aircraft, how much R&D can there be? One you have done a 5x erector how much more difficult to design is a 9x? The optical engineering bit is more or less the same. I am not an optical engineer but I am an aeronautical engineer and I don't see development being the cost difference here, there must be something else.
That said, looks like a nice scope and I'm sure someone will buy one or two.
That said, looks like a nice scope and I'm sure someone will buy one or two.
That assumes no markup and no economy of scale.
In which case the cost of a 5-25x56 should be going down, not up, and they could corner the market by offering the best value in precision optics. But they are not doing that.
Show me one manufacturer that drops the price of a product once enough units have been sold that R&D costs have been recouped.
Joe
scatsob--it's not the erector. What's new is a 9x zoom. It is not trivial to develop a lens with a large zoom range, while maintaining brightness and clarity. This is why professional quality Canon and Nikon ED lenses cost what they do, and why new glass continues to be introduced. If it were easy to develop a scope like what the new SB 3-27 is claimed to be, the Leupold Mark 8 would be worth the $4k they're charging for it
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IBM, Apple, Dell, Honda, Coleman and Royal Enfield to name just a few.
Okay so you managed to name some companies that exist.
Now provide actual evidence of a product that decreased in price over time as a result of development costs being recouped.
Joe
Now provide actual evidence of a product that decreased in price over time as a result of development costs being recouped.
Joe
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A 2yr warranty? Really? Some people might not even get to use it before the warranty is up. With some build times at a year+, there are some guys who will buy a scope and not have a chance to run it through its paces for quite some time. Sounds like this policy will hurt the secondary market as well. Who wants to buy a used S&B for $2800-3200 and have the chance of being screwed? Hell Leupold has a fully transferable lifetime warranty on $400 scopes. I would assume by selling optics over the 3K mark, the company would have enough margin to offer lifetime repairs to something that's touted as insanely rugged and reliable in the worst conditions.
who is the target market on this scope?
Just to aid the conversation here - new concept for some / (boring) review for others:
Warranties: determining the length of warranties is an EXACT process by means of managerial (cost) accounting. Given a large enough sample size and knowledge of both the manufacturing process and failure rate, it is not just possible - it is expected that the bean counters can mathematically determine the exact length of time that the warranty period 'shall run' so as to maintain a given margin.
Dropping price b/c R&D costs have been recouped: (say it with me) "There is NO altruism in capitalism" - corps don't slash margins b/c R&D has been recouped. They reduce price / hold price flat over a period of time b/c competition has produced a widget with equal tech and it has cut into the original corp's market share - ie - they are forced into the pricing scheme.
R&D: Significant variances associated R&D are only justifiable in the market place (and valuable to the corp) if the result clearly yields a superior product. Same / same here - a claim has been made that b/c of this R&D this optic has a primo FOV and resolution. If it REALLY does, there will be buyers. If the claim is marketing hype, and the FOV / resolution are marginally better, but not $2M (that'd be Roman numerals) better than the alternate - that R&D is a non-recoverable sunk cost (likely a friable fuck-up).
In general I find this thread like so many, grown men behaving like high school drama bitches and not getting the big picture - 'don't like it - don't buy it' / the spin off tech may yield an optic from S&B or a competitor that is both an advancement and at a price point the majority favor. All progress is a step forward.
I don't intend to buy it, I think it is cool it has been produced, and I'm pretty sure that inside of 12 months from the time they are available I will see a photo of someone on here that has it mounted on something like an AI PSR.
ETA: the one time I need repair they were 'Johnny on the spot'. Thumbs up from me.
Warranties: determining the length of warranties is an EXACT process by means of managerial (cost) accounting. Given a large enough sample size and knowledge of both the manufacturing process and failure rate, it is not just possible - it is expected that the bean counters can mathematically determine the exact length of time that the warranty period 'shall run' so as to maintain a given margin.
Dropping price b/c R&D costs have been recouped: (say it with me) "There is NO altruism in capitalism" - corps don't slash margins b/c R&D has been recouped. They reduce price / hold price flat over a period of time b/c competition has produced a widget with equal tech and it has cut into the original corp's market share - ie - they are forced into the pricing scheme.
R&D: Significant variances associated R&D are only justifiable in the market place (and valuable to the corp) if the result clearly yields a superior product. Same / same here - a claim has been made that b/c of this R&D this optic has a primo FOV and resolution. If it REALLY does, there will be buyers. If the claim is marketing hype, and the FOV / resolution are marginally better, but not $2M (that'd be Roman numerals) better than the alternate - that R&D is a non-recoverable sunk cost (likely a friable fuck-up).
In general I find this thread like so many, grown men behaving like high school drama bitches and not getting the big picture - 'don't like it - don't buy it' / the spin off tech may yield an optic from S&B or a competitor that is both an advancement and at a price point the majority favor. All progress is a step forward.
I don't intend to buy it, I think it is cool it has been produced, and I'm pretty sure that inside of 12 months from the time they are available I will see a photo of someone on here that has it mounted on something like an AI PSR.
ETA: the one time I need repair they were 'Johnny on the spot'. Thumbs up from me.
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apologies to the OP
I was hoping to learn more details (good/bad) about a new riflescope series from S&B with seemingly significant technical differences...
respectfully:
I agree that there are many other companies that support our shared passion on a much more notable level. (and significantly GAP of course-thanks btw)
I do not agree that S&B and Bushnell/Vortex/or ? are in direct competition for a significant number of customers (sadly on several levels)
I agree that S&B doesn't appear to have any interest in a less expensive/higher volume product line.(bummer)
I do hope that S&B USA is able to offer a longer and transferable written "USA" warranty without the constraints of the Directive 1999/44/EC which I am assuming is being referred to for the new time limit.
Obviously, your business is quite successful because it has met a market need for a product that delivers a specific perceived high value per price.
The price points you HAVE TO charge and production lead times you are confined to in order to provide that package, excludes a good number of rifle consumers that can't justify those differences over a "factory" rifle, that is NOT indifferent to the $5400+/- optic that we are supposedly discussing.
(cuts in margins or higher MSRP's could be expected when trading outside of your native currency?)
(I would have no knowledge of any companies salary cuts or bonuses, but it would seem a certain potentiality for anyone competing in niche markets)
I understand and appreciate your fervor for the shooting sports, lets hope S&B HQ will start to follow that too.
I was hoping to learn more details (good/bad) about a new riflescope series from S&B with seemingly significant technical differences...
respectfully:
I agree that there are many other companies that support our shared passion on a much more notable level. (and significantly GAP of course-thanks btw)
I do not agree that S&B and Bushnell/Vortex/or ? are in direct competition for a significant number of customers (sadly on several levels)
I agree that S&B doesn't appear to have any interest in a less expensive/higher volume product line.(bummer)
I do hope that S&B USA is able to offer a longer and transferable written "USA" warranty without the constraints of the Directive 1999/44/EC which I am assuming is being referred to for the new time limit.
Obviously, your business is quite successful because it has met a market need for a product that delivers a specific perceived high value per price.
The price points you HAVE TO charge and production lead times you are confined to in order to provide that package, excludes a good number of rifle consumers that can't justify those differences over a "factory" rifle, that is NOT indifferent to the $5400+/- optic that we are supposedly discussing.
(cuts in margins or higher MSRP's could be expected when trading outside of your native currency?)
(I would have no knowledge of any companies salary cuts or bonuses, but it would seem a certain potentiality for anyone competing in niche markets)
I understand and appreciate your fervor for the shooting sports, lets hope S&B HQ will start to follow that too.
As long as JerryR is at S&B the 2yr warranty might as well be lifetime with how he has always helped and supported us. Ill stay with Schmidt as long as he's there but if and when he ever leves, ill change to something else.
You know, I like Jerry, too, but that's a flawed strategy because you are assuming that a) Jerry has a say over unilaterally changing the warranty terms, and b) that if he ever leaves you won't still have your scopes.
I hope that SB fully realizes the value of an employee like Jerry, but at the rate at which people appear to be leaving SB, voluntary and otherwise, .... Just sayin'.
This is the problem. We aren't talking about buying truck tires or motor oil. "I'll continue to buy Firestone tires as long as Jerry works for them" makes sense. For a guy like me who gets to shoot around the family's schedule and doesn't get to use a S&B every day like a real "operator" does, I also consider the purchase as something I will pass down to my kids. It makes $3,600 a lot easier to swallow when you consider the years it should be in service.
There really is no reason an optic that is built to handle any hard use military situation (and marketed as such), shouldn't have a transferable lifetime warranty for the 98% of the safe queen/poser/bench/target shooters that will purchase this on the civilian market.
There really is no reason an optic that is built to handle any hard use military situation (and marketed as such), shouldn't have a transferable lifetime warranty for the 98% of the safe queen/poser/bench/target shooters that will purchase this on the civilian market.
Well this thread sure has devolved. The points being made about S&B not listening to customers makes my head spin as in my Army years through the 90s and 00s they seemed to be the only optics company that was listening to what we wanted and that's especially true of the last 10 years. And Jerry's initial point that the new High Power line isn't meant for everyone still rings true. Does anyone still think the 5-25x PMII is outdated and irrelevant in the market all of a sudden?
I don't think anyone is saying they are outdated or irrelevant. What they are saying is big price increases and a warranty that was 30 being dropped to 2 years....is no bueno.
Yeah, the 2 year warranty change is a pita, then again while high end scopes aren't immune from trouble, they don't go tit's up at the rate the economical/value scopes do, in my experience. And the big price jump is for a new line of scopes and doesn't effect the other PMIIs. If the 5-25x was being bumped up to $5.5k, you'd have a point.
ETA: we can scoff at the high prices but there will always be a market for this level of scope. When I was risking my life with optics, I wanted the best money could buy, but being a soldier means you use what you're issued. As a civilian now that's not entirely the case anymore and I generally go with the best advice on choosing an optic: get the best you can afford. Everyone budgets that choice differently - some can afford little and some can afford lots. Some are infrequent shooters and some are shooting every day, so it all depends. For me personally, my bolt guns have all been weeded down to a single DTA SRS with 5 barrel conversions, so I literally get the best scope I can buy for that single platform and back in 2009 when I got the rifle, it was a 5-25x PMII. I could have saved by getting an NXS or other mid-level brand but I'm quite fond of the S&B turrets (the pre-MTC that is). I'm expecting to get an HTI early next year and I'm seriously considering the new Hensoldt 3.5-26x or this new S&B 3-27x, not because I'm a sadist with spending but because I can afford to get one high-end scope for a platform that supports many rifles. To me, it's the wise choice.
ETA: we can scoff at the high prices but there will always be a market for this level of scope. When I was risking my life with optics, I wanted the best money could buy, but being a soldier means you use what you're issued. As a civilian now that's not entirely the case anymore and I generally go with the best advice on choosing an optic: get the best you can afford. Everyone budgets that choice differently - some can afford little and some can afford lots. Some are infrequent shooters and some are shooting every day, so it all depends. For me personally, my bolt guns have all been weeded down to a single DTA SRS with 5 barrel conversions, so I literally get the best scope I can buy for that single platform and back in 2009 when I got the rifle, it was a 5-25x PMII. I could have saved by getting an NXS or other mid-level brand but I'm quite fond of the S&B turrets (the pre-MTC that is). I'm expecting to get an HTI early next year and I'm seriously considering the new Hensoldt 3.5-26x or this new S&B 3-27x, not because I'm a sadist with spending but because I can afford to get one high-end scope for a platform that supports many rifles. To me, it's the wise choice.
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Me personally if I had to choose between that Henny and the S&B....I would go with the S&B. We all know Jerry will take care of us.......Hensoldt customer service is a cluster fuck and a half. Ask me how I know :/
While I hate the new S&B pricing with a vengence , and hate the MTC & locking turrets , I donot see Bushy or any one else ( other than Zeiss/Heny or mayb kahles ) coming close to what S&B PMIIs bring to the table .
If the HD glass on my new Bushy 10x42mm is anything to go by , then the top European glass makers have NOTHING to worry about at any price point , as I think they are CRAP , Opps and thats at the special reduced price , absolute rubbish ( the Bushy that is ) , Opps that really NOT what you want to hear , BUT its my opinion at the moment .
I like the option of the 36mil knob on the 3-27x , as I did not know of that feature , very handy for ELR
Later Chris
If the HD glass on my new Bushy 10x42mm is anything to go by , then the top European glass makers have NOTHING to worry about at any price point , as I think they are CRAP , Opps and thats at the special reduced price , absolute rubbish ( the Bushy that is ) , Opps that really NOT what you want to hear , BUT its my opinion at the moment .
I like the option of the 36mil knob on the 3-27x , as I did not know of that feature , very handy for ELR
Later Chris
How long is the guarantee on your rifle? Is it in writing?
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Me too. They took a little getting used to.
folks, scopes break, plain and simple...even the high end ones like heinyyss and s&b ad usoptics, ...tracking goes bad, poo happens. so while im sure s&b will take care of you, if im spending 5k+ on a scope, I want that in writing please, thank you very much...I don't think its unreasonable. another factor here is resale value. if I have a scope that everybody knows the parent company will take care of you, resale value will be much higher...makes me that much more interested in buying said scope. a perfect example is the hennys. I have been hearing very bad things about their warranty dept and them not taking care of their customers. I know for a fact there are a few henny's for sale used right now and im in the market, however I wont be buying one of them, because im not sure if henny will take care of me. id have no problemo buying a used vortex, or nightforce, as I know without a doubt if I have a problem, its covered...
I'm on the other end of the spectrum I suppose, but I don't think that S&B would turn a customer away if something on one of their scopes would break, due to manufacture defect. I honestly can understand why a company of their size would not want to advertise a unconditional lifetime warranty like some of the others. If I ram my optic into a barricade, or drop it from a building, I fully expect that I am going to be out of pocket. Also comparing the warranty on a rifle from a gunsmith and the warranty on a optic is not quite the same thing. The warranty on my Cadillac is no longer than the warranty on my Ford, and the warranty on my boss's Bentley GT is no longer than either, but the Bentley GT is still way more vehicle. I guess what I am saying is if you can afford a Bentley (S&B) than you can afford to fix it when it breaks. Just my .02
I love my S&B (5-25 PMII MSR) and my experience with Jerry and the service center was one of the best customer service interactions I have ever had.
While I would appreciate a lifetime warranty the new two year deal wont scare me away.
(also, surprised you stepped in this George)
While I would appreciate a lifetime warranty the new two year deal wont scare me away.
(also, surprised you stepped in this George)
Deleted post, never mind.
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Well it may be flawed but I just liked how professional Jerry is and has always taken care of us. When a German mfg can get your scope and have it fixed and back to you in a week, and a US mfg (not gonna say name ) but we all know, takes months.. it speaks huge for S&B. I admit that I dont know about all the contracts with the gov and all the politics going on at S&B, I am speaking from my personal experience. They have taken care of me on multiple occasions with scopes I have purchased second-hand right here. S&B asked me no questions about any warranty info, no dates, or proof of purchase BS. They simply fixed my issue and shipped it back extremely prompt. I am sure they could have checked my serial numbers and caused drama if they wanted to. but I liked how I was treated and because of that, it has led me to be a continued S&B customer. If that service ceases, then of course I will go elsewhere.
As far as buying a scope to pass down to your kids one day.... Who knows who that would be. Its seems like opinions change on this forum on a monthly basis. One month we love S&B, or NF, or whomever and then a few months go by and you see a new thread changing the game completely.
IN the end I guess Im just saying : sure I agree that an iron clad warranty like Vortex's would be nice on a S&B, but at this point in time with JerryR at the wheel over there, I wouldnt let it scare you away from S&B, but hey things change I admit. One day S&B may take it out of Jerrys hands. If they do and things get sour, Ill be right there with some of you. Peace
I love my S&B 3-20x50 and S&B took care of a problem I had with an erector assembly that needed replaced, no problem. I'd buy more S&B scopes, because they rock.
Having said that, the EU Directive, 1999/44/EC, that deals with a two-year warranty was put into place to ensure certain minimum protections for consumers purchasing across borders in the EU. Nowhere does it "dictate" a two-year warranty, it dictates a MINIMUM two-year protection period. This is very clearly articulated in the 26 introductory "whereas" clauses, and scope of the directive, which states:
"1. The purpose of this Directive is the approximation of the laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees in order to ensure a uniform minimum level of consumer protection in the context of the internal market."
It then goes on to enumerate how customers are protected for a minimum of two years and the conditions of such protections. The key word here is *MINIMUM*.
My business manufactures medical devices that are CE marked, so I am quite familiar with various EU directives and conformity with them. Nothing in the directive precludes S&B from offering a warranty that goes beyond the requirements of the directive. It sounds like either 1) it's an easy "out" for the company to reduce their liability to the bare minimum, pointing to the directive as justification, or 2) someone who really doesn't understand the directive changed a policy accordingly. Scenario 2 could even arise out of an audit with an inexperienced or overly literal auditor, but scenario 1 seems more likely.
Please don't interpret this as personally directed toward Jerry or to imply that he is misleading anyone. It is obviously a decision made in Germany, which should in my opinion be reconsidered, especially for the US market. I also collect watches - Swiss and German. They ALWAYS have different stated warranty conditions for outside of the EU and usually specifically for the US.
Jerry - please pass along our feedback, especially since considering post-marketing feedback IS dictated by the ISO 9001 Quality Management System standard, to which S&B is certified.
Having said that, the EU Directive, 1999/44/EC, that deals with a two-year warranty was put into place to ensure certain minimum protections for consumers purchasing across borders in the EU. Nowhere does it "dictate" a two-year warranty, it dictates a MINIMUM two-year protection period. This is very clearly articulated in the 26 introductory "whereas" clauses, and scope of the directive, which states:
"1. The purpose of this Directive is the approximation of the laws, regulations and administrative provisions of the Member States on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees in order to ensure a uniform minimum level of consumer protection in the context of the internal market."
It then goes on to enumerate how customers are protected for a minimum of two years and the conditions of such protections. The key word here is *MINIMUM*.
My business manufactures medical devices that are CE marked, so I am quite familiar with various EU directives and conformity with them. Nothing in the directive precludes S&B from offering a warranty that goes beyond the requirements of the directive. It sounds like either 1) it's an easy "out" for the company to reduce their liability to the bare minimum, pointing to the directive as justification, or 2) someone who really doesn't understand the directive changed a policy accordingly. Scenario 2 could even arise out of an audit with an inexperienced or overly literal auditor, but scenario 1 seems more likely.
Please don't interpret this as personally directed toward Jerry or to imply that he is misleading anyone. It is obviously a decision made in Germany, which should in my opinion be reconsidered, especially for the US market. I also collect watches - Swiss and German. They ALWAYS have different stated warranty conditions for outside of the EU and usually specifically for the US.
Jerry - please pass along our feedback, especially since considering post-marketing feedback IS dictated by the ISO 9001 Quality Management System standard, to which S&B is certified.
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HA HA! Me too ...
I have a buddy who was shooting the new S&B 3-27 on his work gun and the scope would not hold zero. He has the ability to get anything he wants on it and ended up with the new Bushnell XRS 4.5-30x50 and says its the best scope hes ever used. He said only a few of them had the issue and the other guys loved theirs and were keeping them. This being said I run a 5-25 S&B MSR w/ Locking Turrets and have had zero issues and will keep it till the next best thing from S&B comes out 5-10 years from now.
Original XM2010 S/A setup (December 2012)
New Setup with Bushnell XRS a few months back (notice the other XM2010 has the 3-27 S&B)
Original XM2010 S/A setup (December 2012)
New Setup with Bushnell XRS a few months back (notice the other XM2010 has the 3-27 S&B)
No doubt Bushnell is making good tactical scopes these days, but I find it hard to believe even their top-of-the-line scope compares to the average S&B when it comes to optical quality. Personal experience has repeatedly said otherwise. That doesn't mean I don't like the HDMR, but after running mine for a 3 days straight in competition, when I hopped over to my S&B for some casual post-comp shooting before the sun went down the difference between the two was remarkable.
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