Suppressors SBR requirements while waiting on Form 1 approval

[Aquatic_Robotic]

I am aware of what is required to complete the Form 1 and start the SBR process. I have questions about what is legal to have in my possession while waiting on the Form 1 approvals.

I own a few AR's, as well as, 2 AR pistols, one 9mm and one in 223 and both have 7.5 inch barrels. I am thinking about putting 3 complete lowers on Form 1 and converting to SBR's. Am I legal to have in my possession the 3 complete lowers, as well as the 2 AR pistols while I wait for my Form 1's to be approved?

Can I also have in my possession short barreled uppers and complete lowers until my SBR's are approved? I have read on several forms about "intent" to posses/build a SBR without approval. I certainly have NO INENTIONS of putting together a SBR without proper approved paper work, but I do no want there to be any questions of my intentions.

What is legal for me to own and possess until I get the SBR Form 1's approved? Complete lowers? complete short barreled uppers? AR pistols? It honestly seems ridiculous to even have to ask such questions, but I feel it is necessary to stay completely beyond any suspicions of wrong actions or wrong intentions.

Any ATF documentation, or first hand knowledge or experience on this topic would be appreciated.

Thank You

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Very interested in this info as well.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Publications - Firearms - National Firearms Act Handbook | ATF

Best thing to do is to download the NFA Handbook linked above. Pay attention to page 37. Then look up 'constructive intent'.

In general - no approved SBR - you don't want to have a short barrel or a SBR upper on hand. Buy it now, store it with a friend who has an SBR stamp (and the other conditions below) or with someone who has no ARs. If you have an SBR stamp and have spare (non SBR)lowers without 16" (or greater) uppers - not a good idea to have spare SBR uppers around.

 

[sib1948]

You shouldn't have any NFA items anywhere near you until you have the stamp "in hand".

 

[Aquatic_Robotic]

I will do more research. I have several items on Form 4's now in my trust, but no SBR's. I abide 100% by the letter of the law on NFA items, as well as all local, state and federal gun laws. I want to be 100% certain there is never an opportunity for anyone to question my legality or my intentions to own and possess legal firearms, NFA or otherwise.

My only concern is what might be considering intent. As stated, I own a number of AR rifles and I also own 2 AR pistols. I never really even though about this until I made a decision to own SBR's. I have no intention of building a SBR from these two separate firearms, but it does raise the question simply because it "COULD" be done??

Are we saying that no one should own AR 15 rifles and AR pistols at the same time?? I know plenty who do, but is this in fact a point of question of intent? I do not think so, but that is just MHO based on the information I have read up till point in time.

If I have complete lowers (without uppers attached), and complete AR rifles, and complete AR pistols, I am good to move forward on Form 1's to own SBR's? I have no short barrels uppers at all except the 2 that are built as AR pistols.

I am not paranoid, but as stated several times I want to be 100% within the law with no reason for anyone to question my legality or intent to own and possess legal firearms.

Thank you for input and thoughts.

 

[Nik H]

OP,

I think your strategy is correct. Intent is everything and prior court cases have resulted that possession of all of the parts to build an SBR is no different than having the SBR. Don't know if you have seen this before but it is a reference FAQ for NFA. Check out the SBR section.

FAQ On National Firearms Act Weapons

 

[cshann55]

I think each person looking at this will have their own interpretation of the law. As it has been explained to me by the ATF, "Be sure not questionable items in the same locations". So yes, enjoy your AR rifles and your AR pistols. If you have SBR or Pistol-length uppers do not keep them alongside any complete uppers, either in use or not. Simply buying uppers should not create intent, but keeping all of it in the same "toolbox" sure might.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

OP - nerd out with the link: SilencerTalk ? View topic - Short uppers in safe with non SBR'd lowers


Me myself? I have SBRs and a vacant non NFA lower. While I would like another SBR upper or two, I will not do so until I have a 16" upper (or greater) on that vacant lower. I see it the same way if someone had an AR pistol, if it was me - I would not have the means to install a stock anywhere in my possession.

People can say that they never intended sh*t, but if one has an FA trigger group sitting idle in drawer, a jig, and instructions on how to mill the shelf.... That could be an expensive war of words to explain that one never 'intended' to construct such a weapon. For me it is just a line that I stay well away from. Doesn't mean I am right, but it is the way I roll.

 

[Aquatic_Robotic]

Good stuff here guys and I appreciate each and every comment, opinion and suggested reading. I have read all of those suggested here, as well as many others. To satisfy my own concerns of being 100% above reproach, questionability or intent, this is my current plan.

Before I purchase components to build any SBR's, I am going to contact my local ATF office and ask them to please provide answers to my questions. If needed I will prepare my questions in writing so I can receive written responses from ATF to these questions.

Any further opinion, information source, first hand knowledge, or experience in these matters is much appreciated.

 

[rjrivero]

With ATF Ruling 2011-4, the entire "constructive Intent" or "constructive possession" thing gets turned on it's head. (Linked below)

With the opinion letter, you can build a stripped lower into a pistol, and then convert it to a legal rifle, and back again at will as long as you don't put a stock on it when it has a less than 16" barrel on it.

So who's to say your "stripped lower" with a 16" upper and a detachable stock isn't all a big kit to convert your pistol to a rifle to a pistol as outlined 2011-4?

As long as you never put a stock on your receiver extension with a short barrel on your upper at the same time, as per 2011-4 you're golden.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would argue that building your lower into a "pistol" first, you can then worry less about "constructive intent" or "constructive possession."

http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

 

[cheshier2]

Why would the ATF/Police be looking in your gun safe?
If you think the ATF/Police are going to be stopping by your house anytime soon,
You probably should not be filing any form 1's or form 4's..

 

[vinsonr]

This whole concept is silly. Buy what you want and don't talk about it on a forum. Easy.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

As has been mentioned, you really need to be careful with having items on hand that could get you in trouble with the ATF for constructive intent. If you want to play it safe, wait for the stamp in hand. That's how I've always done it as I error on the side of caution. (I don't rely on the ATF opinion letters either as they can change on a whim and unless it specifically states your name on there, I'm not trusting it to save my ass in court)

 

[Aquatic_Robotic]

I appreciate all the opinions expressed here. I have never "worried" about ATF or the NFA items I own or may own in the future because I DO IT RIGHT. I buy what I want and have always and will always do everything I can do to the most informed consumer I can possibly be. That is the basis for this thread. I try to learn what I can about an issue I have questions about and then make the appropriate decision, based on the facts I have been able to learn.

I want my decisions to be based on facts and how is a man to learn those facts unless he asks questions? For those that wish to do things your way without input from others, I respect that and hope it continues to work well for you. I just want to do what is right and at times I need a "little help from friends" discerning what is actually right in a given set of circumstances.

Please continue to voice your opinions on this topic, as I find them very interesting and educational. Others may find themselves right where I am right now and what is presented here may help them as well.

Respectfully

AR

 

[Nik H]

This whole concept is silly. Buy what you want and don't talk about it on a forum. Easy.

+10...

 

[rjrivero]

As has been mentioned, you really need to be careful with having items on hand that could get you in trouble with the ATF for constructive intent. If you want to play it safe, wait for the stamp in hand. That's how I've always done it as I error on the side of caution. (I don't rely on the ATF opinion letters either as they can change on a whim and unless it specifically states your name on there, I'm not trusting it to save my ass in court)

The difference between an opinion letter and an ATF Ruling are really two different beasts. Opinion letters carry very little weight. Rulings are a different matter all together.

 

[rjrivero]

As has been mentioned, you really need to be careful with having items on hand that could get you in trouble with the ATF for constructive intent. If you want to play it safe, wait for the stamp in hand. That's how I've always done it as I error on the side of caution. (I don't rely on the ATF opinion letters either as they can change on a whim and unless it specifically states your name on there, I'm not trusting it to save my ass in court)

The difference between an opinion letter and an ATF Ruling are really two different beasts. Opinion letters carry very little weight. Rulings are a different matter all together.

 

[Altnews]

I have a SIG 556 rifle and a SIG 556P pistol. The parts are completely interchangeable except for the buttstock, which will not fit on the 556P. However, the 556P upper will (I'm told...having never tested the information) fit on the 556 rifle lower, creating an SBR.

Likewise I can put the 556P lower sans buttstock on the 556 upper and have a "para model" 556 rifle without any problem.

And my reading of the ruling is that so long as I have BOTH the complete 556 rifle and complete 556P pistol, which is to say both uppers and lowers, and so long as I do not actually assemble the 556P SB upper onto the 556 rifle lower with the buttstock, I can keep the guns in the same case if I want because the ruling says only that the possession of a combination of parts in close proximity that "serve NO other useful purpose" (emphasis mine) than to create an NFA weapon requires registration. So having the 556 lower with buttstock but no upper, which by the way is NOT a "firearm" because it is the SIG upper that is the serialized part, and a 556P WOULD be in violation if the 556P is not registered as an SBR.

On the other hand, having a complete 556 rifle and only the 556P lower without buttstock is okay as long as the overall length is >26 inches.