School me about 300 Norma Magnum

[NB4Z]

1. The 230 gr Berger Tactical and Hybrid tactical bullets are target bullets and unsuitable for hunting. They DO meet the Geneva Convention for non-expanding bullets and as such are used in the new XM 2010 .300 Win mag sniper rifle made by Remington Defense.

In actual fact I have several boxes of 230 gr. Berger Tactical Hybrid bullets.
One box states:
"Specifically Designed for Tactical Applications in the XM 2010."
"For Best Results in .300 Win. Mag. Load to COAL of 3.600" to 3.650". "
"G1 BC - .711 G7 BC = .364"

This is an exact quote, misplaced capital letters and all.

2. Berger and others do make great .30 caliber hunting bullets 200 gr. and above. I just wanted to see what was considered a good long range .30 cal bullet and if anyone was using them in the .300 Norma mag.

I'm now doing a ballistic comparison of the .300 Norma mag. and the .300 RUM.
I feel the Norma round, with its shorter body and more sharply angled shoulder will be the most accurate. That's why bench rest shooters have used cartridges built like this.

3. General Dynamics likes this cartridge so well they produced a medium machine gun using the .300 Lapua mag. that is only a bit heavier than the lightened standard 7.62 machine gun and lighter than the old standard 7.62 M240 with less recoil due to clever engineering. Naturally the ammo load will be heavier but it's a crew served gun and the ammo load is shared. With this round a 2,000 meter beaten area is entirely possible and that is nice when shooting in places like Afghanistan in longer range firefights. This is sorta like a boxer having a 2 inch longer reach than his opponent.

 

[vh20]

3. General Dynamics likes this cartridge so well they produced a medium machine gun using the .300 Lapua mag. that is only a bit heavier than the lightened standard 7.62 machine gun and lighter than the old standard 7.62 M240 with less recoil due to clever engineering. Naturally the ammo load will be heavier but it's a crew served gun and the ammo load is shared. With this round a 2,000 meter beaten area is entirely possible and that is nice when shooting in places like Afghanistan in longer range firefights. This is sorta like a boxer having a 2 inch longer reach than his opponent.

The Gen Dyn LWMMG is chambered for .338 Norma Magnum, not .300 Lapua (unless there has been a complete change of horses midstream in the past few months that I'm unaware of). I have fired it and seen it demo'd on two occasions.

 

[christopher.dow]

Thanks for information ?

My pleasure.

 

[Teach Me Sensei]

@lowlight Do you still feel this post is accurate now, a little more than two years later? Has the feedback and your experience been the same since then?

I don't think the 8 twist works, that is what A1st Sold the Army on, and his rifle was a 20" barrel. In that context yes, you have an argument for an 8 twist. But when guys are squeezing every bit of velocity of out of them the 8 twist is a bad idea.

Almost every week I get a call or email asking what twist my 300NM is and how it shoots. They are struggling to get the 8 Twist rifles to work right.

My 300NM is a 1-10, and it's a 1/4 MOA shooter at 100, and carries out to beyond 2400 with the same accuracy. I have taken to 2550 yards with awesome results. I just did a series of load development shots and it was again, sub 3/8s with most of the loads, and I am getting 2997fps out of a 25" barrel with no pressure signs shooting a 230gr Berger.

I would honestly avoid the 1-8, but I know everyone is going that way because the Army says it's better for transonic. Not sure how much more past 2550 you have to go in order to see this "better" but I would be curious how well it works up. The complaints I am fielding seem to be strong and valid.

 

[Lowlight]

I was ordering a new 300NM barrel yesterday I wanted a 10 twist - so ya

 

[Teach Me Sensei]

Good to hear

A lot can happen in 2 years

 

[nick338]

I was ordering a new 300NM barrel yesterday I wanted a 10 twist - so ya

Have you shot the A-Tips out of a 10 twist? Asking because I'm doing a Norma and I have a 9 twist Hawk Hill 4 groove but I'm at sea level.

 

[Steel head]

There’s an excellent smith build in the PX right now in 300NM that’s making my wallet quiver!

This thread is making resistance difficult!

 

[shoot4fun]

I was ordering a new 300NM barrel yesterday I wanted a 10 twist - so ya

I just picked up a 300NM Improved 35˚ with a Krieger 9 twist. The barrel is 28". It came with a bit of Berger factory ammo loaded with 215 Hybrids. Most of my shooting is well below 700' ASL so I think a little faster twist isn't a bad thing. Am I looking at that correctly?

 

[Long Range 338]

I just picked up a 300NM Improved 35˚ with a Krieger 9 twist. The barrel is 28". It came with a bit of Berger factory ammo loaded with 215 Hybrids. Most of my shooting is well below 700' ASL so I think a little faster twist isn't a bad thing. Am I looking at that correctly?

If you've already dropped the coin, shoot it and give us your results. The twist rate sounds a little fast for the barrel length and the lighter bullet but guys are going as fast as 8 twist. I'm shooting a 9 twist and it is a HAMMER with factory Hornady ammo.

 

[jwramp]

+1 for 1:9 - I handload 215s to 3170 out of a 28" and it very much likes them, especially with a big 'ol jump.

 

[nick338]

I just picked up a 300NM Improved 35˚ with a Krieger 9 twist. The barrel is 28". It came with a bit of Berger factory ammo loaded with 215 Hybrids. Most of my shooting is well below 700' ASL so I think a little faster twist isn't a bad thing. Am I looking at that correctly?

I would think a 9 twist with that bullet and elevation would be about perfect, if not on the fast side. Frank is shooting 230's out of a short 10 twist barrel if I remember correctly with great results, but at a higher elevation. I'm attempting to shoot 250 A tips with a 9 twist so I think you're good.

 

[shoot4fun]

I would think a 9 twist with that bullet and elevation would be about perfect, if not on the fast side. Frank is shooting 230's out of a short 10 twist barrel if I remember correctly with great results, but at a higher elevation. I'm attempting to shoot 250 A tips with a 9 twist so I think you're good.

I have been shooting the 230 Berger in a 300WM since they were introduced and doing it with a 10 twist. I'm able to get them going 2875FPS from a 26" Kregier and they do okay. I've always felt things could be better and something Brian Litz said to me in the very beginning just keeps nagging. He said the 230 did not handle transonic as well as some other bullets of the same weight and caliber. That makes me have some doubts about my choice, especially when my 7WSM with 180 Bergers would outshoot the 300WM by a good margin at 1,000 yards. I'm soon replacing the 300WM 10 twist with either a 8.5 or 9 twist and going to 300PRC in the process. Am I just overthinking the whole faster is better twist thing?

 

[nick338]

I have been shooting the 230 Berger in a 300WM since they were introduced and doing it with a 10 twist. I'm able to get them going 2875FPS from a 26" Kregier and they do okay. I've always felt things could be better and something Brian Litz said to me in the very beginning just keeps nagging. He said the 230 did not handle transonic as well as some other bullets of the same weight and caliber. That makes me have some doubts about my choice, especially when my 7WSM with 180 Bergers would outshoot the 300WM by a good margin at 1,000 yards. I'm soon replacing the 300WM 10 twist with either a 8.5 or 9 twist and going to 300PRC in the process. Am I just overthinking the whole faster is better twist thing?

There are definitely some bullets that perform better than others when they hit transonic but that would not come into play with either of those combinations at 1k. Did you compare them at shorter distances? How did the the 300 WM group at 100? A 10 twist with a 230 at 700' may be a little on the slow side but I would think you would have seen a problem right off the bat during load development.

 

[bjay]

Ive tried 9, 10 even gain twist 8.75-9.25 they all shoot 215-245.theres a reason why frank pick 10 on his normas..hes factory ammo shooter and his reloaders mimic factory ammos and his set up are perfect for it...

 

[wildcats]

There’s an excellent smith build in the PX right now in 300NM that’s making my wallet quiver!

This thread is making resistance difficult!

Just buy it,you only live once..

 

[Long Range 338]

I have been shooting the 230 Berger in a 300WM since they were introduced and doing it with a 10 twist. I'm able to get them going 2875FPS from a 26" Kregier and they do okay. I've always felt things could be better and something Brian Litz said to me in the very beginning just keeps nagging. He said the 230 did not handle transonic as well as some other bullets of the same weight and caliber. That makes me have some doubts about my choice, especially when my 7WSM with 180 Bergers would outshoot the 300WM by a good margin at 1,000 yards. I'm soon replacing the 300WM 10 twist with either a 8.5 or 9 twist and going to 300PRC in the process. Am I just overthinking the whole faster is better twist thing?

If you dig deeper the whole reason for the fast twist is to use short barrels. The faster twist helps maintain stability but your velocities are going to be substantially lower at the muzzle. For example if you were comparing 20 and 28 inch barrels you might see a velocity difference of 200fps at the muzzle. Think of your system as a whole and take all factors into account. Both methods work but both are for a specific scenario.

 

[Yerman]

I'm shooting a 300Nm with a Bartlein Barrel, 30cal, 28”, 8tw, MTU and having a lot of success with the 250gr A-Tips at 2950fps.

I think an 8 twist helps stabilize the heavier bullets at distance.

300 Norma Mag

Shot some of the 250gr A-Tips out of my 300NM today. Hornady 250gr A-Tip Peterson Brass Federal #215 Primers Retumbo No Pressure Signs I'll further explore 86.0 - 86.5 grains

www.snipershide.com

 

[Earnhardt]

With the ultra high BC/heavies...
Do any of them fit in a detach mag?

 

[shoot4fun]

With the ultra high BC/heavies...
Do any of them fit in a detach mag?

Mine is set up for CIP length mags so they should the 215 & 230 Berger should fit with ease. Not sue on the 250 A-Tip but likely.

 

[nick338]

With the ultra high BC/heavies...
Do any of them fit in a detach mag?

I have a dummy rd with the 250 at 3.725 that places the base of the bullet about .060 below the shoulder so yes it fits.

 

[Yerman]

With the ultra high BC/heavies...
Do any of them fit in a detach mag?

I jump 30 thou and they don't fit. I can get them to fit if I seat them deeper but prefer to single feed my ammo and run them where they shoot the best.

 

[nick338]

I jump 30 thou and they don't fit. I can get them to fit if I seat them deeper but prefer to single feed my ammo and run them where they shoot the best.

What action are you running?

 

[Yerman]

What action are you running?

Nitrided Defiance Deviant “Hellfire” Action - LA-CIP/338L/30MOA and a CIP length magazine

 

[fmillik]

I am currently setting up a rifle to switch between 6.5 PRC and 300 PRC. I originally wanted to go for the 300 Norma (I had enjoyed watching @THLR hit targets in extremely windy conditions with it) as it seemed like a better cartridge for someone that didn't want something as big as a 338 Lapua, but still wanted a lot of down range performance. However, I got really interested in the ARC Nucleus, which doesn't make a bolt-face large enough for the 300 Norma, so I instead I looked into the PRC.

Cleckner's book started me on the path of shooting longer distances, so I tend to put a lot of stock in his analysis. https://gununiversity.com/300-prc-ballistics-and-comparisons/

The performance differences between the two cartridges seems to be minimal, while being able to fit the PRC in a normal magnum bolt-face (.540), rather than a extra large one (.585).

Anyone try out both? What do you think?

 

[nick338]

I am currently setting up a rifle to switch between 6.5 PRC and 300 PRC. I originally wanted to go for the 300 Norma (I had enjoyed watching @THLR hit targets in extremely windy conditions with it) as it seemed like a better cartridge for someone that didn't want something as big as a 338 Lapua, but still wanted a lot of down range performance. However, I got really interested in the ARC Nucleus, which doesn't make a bolt-face large enough for the 300 Norma, so I instead I looked into the PRC.

Cleckner's book started me on the path of shooting longer distances, so I tend to put a lot of stock in his analysis. https://gununiversity.com/300-prc-ballistics-and-comparisons/

The performance differences between the two cartridges seems to be minimal, while being able to fit the PRC in a normal magnum bolt-face (.540), rather than a extra large one (.585).

Anyone try out both? What do you think?

Have not but I'm starting to feel like just a plain old 300 Win Mag is hard to pass up. I'm finding that chasing the extremes with cartridges is never as good as it sounds on paper. Not to mention my time to spend on reloading is very limited so having factory ammo options is important. So Berger, if you're listening, having a factory 300 Win Mag with the 220 gr LRHT bullet would be outstanding.

 

[Long Range 338]

I am currently setting up a rifle to switch between 6.5 PRC and 300 PRC. I originally wanted to go for the 300 Norma (I had enjoyed watching @THLR hit targets in extremely windy conditions with it) as it seemed like a better cartridge for someone that didn't want something as big as a 338 Lapua, but still wanted a lot of down range performance. However, I got really interested in the ARC Nucleus, which doesn't make a bolt-face large enough for the 300 Norma, so I instead I looked into the PRC.

Cleckner's book started me on the path of shooting longer distances, so I tend to put a lot of stock in his analysis. https://gununiversity.com/300-prc-ballistics-and-comparisons/

The performance differences between the two cartridges seems to be minimal, while being able to fit the PRC in a normal magnum bolt-face (.540), rather than a extra large one (.585).

Anyone try out both? What do you think?

The 300NM is a step up from the 300PRC but you will pay a price for performance. The PRC basically splits the difference between the 300WM and the 300NM. Not necessary for any reason but you do get more performance and for some reason the 300NM doesn't seem to be picky or difficult for load development - maybe its the short fat case, maybe its the brass, whatever. All the 30 caliber options are what they are and there is a reason to pick any of them. $$$ and performance being the biggest factors in my mind.

As far as Cleckner, he seems a good guy and knows a fair bit. If you start to pay attention to the fine details Frank is a much better source of information.

 

[shoot4fun]

Shot my 300NM 35˚ today to get my 100 yard zero and to chronograph a few of the Berger factory 215 grain rounds. . Zeroed in three shots and shot a three-shot group to confirm. Strapped on the Magnetospeed V3 and fired to see any POI shift. POI shifted downward approximately .25 MOA so I fired the remaining eight rounds in the box. I would guess that, with the NX8 4-32 optic in BAT rings, this rifle weighs in at around 14 pounds and it has a Terminator brake starting at 28". I had read the specs on Berger factory ammo and saw they gave 3,017 FPS muzzle from a 26" barrel so I have to say I was a bit disappointed by the eight-shot average of 2,881 FPS. On the bright side the eight-shot group measured right a .6" and (even though a 1/4" low) was perfect on windage. I usually set my zero stop on NF scopes about one to 1.5 mils lower than actual zero and checking for elevation travel I found I went to a hard stop at 19.3 mils. By those numbers and a quick calculation of a drop chart I see that the scope is just a bit short of. making the 1,800 Yard target,

 

[Steel head]

Brand new barrel?
If so it will speed up a bit.
Looks like your just gonna hold a bit for 1800
My 7 saum shoots flatter interestingly.

 

[MACHTECH]

Everytime I come to the elr section and see this thread up top again, I wish the OP would change the title to "I'll school you with my .300 NM".

300 Norma is my favorite cartridge by far! The performance is hard to top and it's so easy to load for. The accuracy node on it is huge.

 

[Steel head]

Everytime I come to the elr section and see this thread up top again, I wish the OP would change the title to "I'll school you with my .300 NM".

300 Norma is my favorite cartridge by far! The performance is hard to top and it's so easy to load for. The accuracy node on it is huge.

I have no experience with 300NM but loading 338NM showed me how incredibly easy it was to get a good load.

 

[SIDS01]

Everytime I come to the elr section and see this thread up top again, I wish the OP would change the title to "I'll school you with my .300 NM".

300 Norma is my favorite cartridge by far! The performance is hard to top and it's so easy to load for. The accuracy node on it is huge.

What are you using for powder? I'm just about out of Retumbo.

 

[shoot4fun]

Brand new barrel?
If so it will speed up a bit.
Looks like your just gonna hold a bit for 1800
My 7 saum shoots flatter interestingly.

Yes it's a new barrel with 20 rounds on it now.
I expect some increase but not sure it will find 100+ FPS.
Now that I have 20 formed Lapua cases, some Retumbo, RL33 and RL26 I'll try to make best use of the extra oomph of the improved version.

 

[Yerman]

What are you using for powder? I'm just about out of Retumbo.

I would try to find more Retumbo.

I tried H1000 and R33, and Retumbo gives me the best results. I have heard N570 might be a good powder too. You'll probably get a little more case fill.

 

[MACHTECH]

What are you using for powder? I'm just about out of Retumbo.

I'm using 83.5 grains of Retumbo in Lapua brass with gm215m primers and 225 eldm.

 

[MACHTECH]

I just found this post in the AI section that Jake put up. He did make a mistake on the yardage too. It was 2640 yards. This just shows the capability of the 300 NM! I went 7/10 in some tricky winds.

 

[SIDS01]

Thanks for the help, I was wondering if I was missing something obvious. Yea, Retumbo has been the way to go for me as well.

86.0 grains of Retumbo, 215M primer, New Lapua brass, 230 ATip gave 3103 fps from a 32" 1:8 Barlein. The extractor groove opened up 0.000 4", which usually gives me 8-10 loadings. QL estimated the pressure at 70ksi. You won't do that with Norma brass. I loaded up the once fired with the same charge and it gave 3090 fps. I tested them at 2300 yards and they were the most consistent bullet on that target to date. The target has seen serious 375s in the past.

86.0 grains of N570 gave the same extractor groove expansion and 3121 fps. I've seen much larger kicks in the pants from N570 with other cartridges. I tested on an 84 F day, so that might be it.

H1000 didn't give enough performance to justify the loss of barrel life over a 300wm, and enough 24N41 won't fit in the case. I have R33, but its coming into the hot time of year around here and I'd rather not deal with double based powders during the summer.

Peterson brass was a huge disappointment, with some cases 0.016" below my go gauge. I necked them all up to 338 and back down to form a false shoulder.

So we have Lapua brass, ATips, all we need is Retumbo to come back and life will be good again.

 

[shoot4fun]

Brand new barrel?
If so it will speed up a bit.
Looks like your just gonna hold a bit for 1800
My 7 saum shoots flatter interestingly.

Found a AI 18MOA mount today back in the back of one of my safes. Reinstalled the scope in that and now, with the 20MOA integral base on the action, I have just over 23.5 mils total elevation. Should be good for 1800-2000 yards with that and handholds in the improved brass. Just waiting on my shell holder to get here and that may be a while.