School me on SBR

CarbonMTN

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I really want to get the EDGE PDW, when I can find one... But I do have a few questions.

My *CURRENT* understanding is that I can shoulder the brace?

This will be a home defense rifle with the occasional range day trips. With the 5.5" barrel would kind of groups can I expect, 4" MOA @ 100, Maybe more MOA and could you guess the velocities?

I have never owned a AR type rifle, what do YOU see as the problems I may run into with this rifle?
 

S197

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The brace was not designed for shouldering and manufactures state disclaimers on mis use of the brace. It all comes down to the officers that are writing citations. Now Almost everyone shoulders it, and I have not read about any prosecutions or fines over it but I could see our government limiting braces to ADA individual, kind of like parking spots.

safest bet is to form 1 it, and you would not need to worry about it.
 
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Mwalex

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    It is best not to take posters opinion on something that can go sideways with the ATF. Do your own homework, talk to a NFA lawyer and make your own decision. My only contribution is this link:


    In 2017 ATF cited that is was acceptable to shoulder a brace. The ATF has recently hinted that braces will be going away at some point in the future.
     

    celltech

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    American Rifleman tested the Edge PDW and with tiny barrels come tiny velocities. They were getting ~1610 fps with 75gr and ~1750 fps with 62gr. Both loads only had 430 lbs of energy. They shot it at 50 yards and were getting 1" to 4" groups depending on the ammo. The thing is almost pushing 6 lbs and has an absurd price tag. I personally don't see the point...

    For *now* braces are legal and nobody has ever been arrested for shouldering one...but who knows what the future holds.
     

    YammyMonkey

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    That thing is going to be miserable to shoot, have horrible ballistics, and the ATF can, on a whim, make braces illegal just like bump stocks. If you want a loud toy, go for it, but it looks like a grand waste to me.
     

    buffalowinter

    Rick Jones MAJ, SF (Ret)
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    Like S197 said...just do a form 1 and make a legal registered SBR. Costs $200, paperwork is easy, takes about 8 months. But once it's done, you have a nice SBR and don't have to worry about future legislation...braces be damned...Biden went public two days ago saying he was going to sign an executive order requiring all AR's to be NFA registered or turned in. You can take that for what it's worth. Definitely will be overturned, but he said it, he'll do it, and it will be in the courts for the next two years.
     

    drewthebrave

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    American Rifleman tested the Edge PDW and with tiny barrels come tiny velocities. They were getting ~1610 fps with 75gr and ~1750 fps with 62gr. Both loads only had 430 lbs of energy. They shot it at 50 yards and were getting 1" to 4" groups depending on the ammo. The thing is almost pushing 6 lbs and has an absurd price tag. I personally don't see the point...

    This. There are better tools for the job of self defense in the home. I personally wouldn't go below 10" for a 5.56 SBR/Pistol/whatever. Perhaps a .300BLK or pistol caliber (9mm/.40/.45) would suit your short-barreled needs better with much less noise & wasted energy.
     
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    oldfatguy

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    I really want to get the EDGE PDW, when I can find one... But I do have a few questions.

    My *CURRENT* understanding is that I can shoulder the brace?

    This will be a home defense rifle with the occasional range day trips. With the 5.5" barrel would kind of groups can I expect, 4" MOA @ 100, Maybe more MOA and could you guess the velocities?

    I have never owned a AR type rifle, what do YOU see as the problems I may run into with this rifle?
    What cartridge? A 5.5” 5.56 would be one hell of a flash-bang with every shot. Not to mention the gigantic loss of velocity.

    OFG
     

    celltech

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    For fun I plotted one of my .223 rifle loads in QuickLoad for a 5.5" barrel. There is only enough time to burn 74% of the powder and the pressure is still at 37K PSI when the round leaves the barrel. How can then reliably control the BCG through that? Just get a full size pistol with a 20 round mag and a flashlight...
     

    MPDS13

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    Buy what you want and have fun with it. But, if you are looking for advice or suggestions. I would agree with some of the above. If you are wanting it to be a 5.56 don't go shorter than 10". If you are wanting something shorter, then go 300 blackout. There are good sub and supersonic self defense rounds for the 300 that perform out of shorter barrels. But, 5.56 really needs the velocity to do its job properly.
     

    lte82

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    Like S197 said...just do a form 1 and make a legal registered SBR. Costs $200, paperwork is easy, takes about 8 months. But once it's done, you have a nice SBR and don't have to worry about future legislation...braces be damned...Biden went public two days ago saying he was going to sign an executive order requiring all AR's to be NFA registered or turned in. You can take that for what it's worth. Definitely will be overturned, but he said it, he'll do it, and it will be in the courts for the next two years.

    You can’t add items to the NFA by executive order.
     

    buffalowinter

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    You can’t add items to the NFA by executive order.
    Yes, I know that, you know that, the Supreme Court knows that, but your "President Elect" seems to disagree. Apparently today, you can do anything by executive order. It will be a matter of litigation, as I said.
     
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    USMCGRUNT0341

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    Several videos of Springfield and others firing the PDW at the Shot Show 2020.

    I waited a long time to get one and put the Venom 3 on it when it arrived. I am sure there are many better options, but I like mine for HD. It is nice and compact inside my closet on a Spartan mount with (3) 20-round mags also on a Spartan mount next to it. I won’t be competitive shooting with it. I have the PDW and Shockwave tucked away nicely.
     

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    GUNNER10

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    I really want to get the EDGE PDW, when I can find one... But I do have a few questions.

    My *CURRENT* understanding is that I can shoulder the brace?

    This will be a home defense rifle with the occasional range day trips. With the 5.5" barrel would kind of groups can I expect, 4" MOA @ 100, Maybe more MOA and could you guess the velocities?

    I have never owned a AR type rifle, what do YOU see as the problems I may run into with this rifle?

    from a function standpoint, there is no difference between a stock and brace these days.

    Group size would be dependent on ammo quality. I would assume anywhere between 1 and 4 MOA, Velocity should be around 2100fps

    Giant fireballs good amount of concussion, slow velocities so most ammo is not going to fragment/expand so i am not sure it would be the most effective tool for home defense.
     

    UpSideDown

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    - Braced guns don't make you a pussy. There are distinct legal advantages in many states regarding pistols vs rifles when it comes to loaded/concealed/ in a vehicle.

    - The ATF is going to fuck everyone with braces as fast as they possibly can

    - 5.5" 5.56 guns are retarded. Permanent hearing damage is a feature.
     
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    GothicSerpent

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    Look at the recent publication the ATF made essentially in the past 24 hours about the legality of the SBT braces, now being called “shouldering devices”.
     

    cjs88

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    - 5.5" 5.56 guns are retarded. Permanent hearing damage is a feature.
    This. Was at the range over the weekend and someone had a short , I think he said it was 7" I don't remember, 5.56/.223 AR and that little thing was loud as hell.
     

    houndog

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    Agree with other posters - an AR with a 5" barrel is kind of a useless range toy that isn't even that much fun to shoot. Personally, I wouldn't go shorter than 7-8" in any caliber - and if you want to go that short get a pistol caliber carbine, add a red dot and you will own anything between 0 and 50 yards. If you want/need a rifle caliber AR and want to go under 10" get something in 300 BO. To me, the shortest I would go on an AR15 is 10.5" and 12"-16" is the real sweet spot if you're looking for a do it all rifle that's short enough to be usable in tight spaces, suitable for home defense, yet capable of making shots out to at least 400 yards.
     
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    lte82

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    But the nfa doesn't have to have an executive order to re evaluate something and add it to nfa. Look at bumpstocks and the honey badger.

    There is a difference between classifying something as a machine gun or sbr, and adding to the NFA. Bump stocks are a machine gun, pistol brace is actually a stock. I don’t see a 30 Rd magazine or standard AR15 falling under any definition listed as a restricted item on the current NFA as it currently sits. You would have to add semi auto rifles to that, which would literally take a majority of the senate to do.
     

    LRRPF52

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    The only cartridges I think I would even consider with a 5” barrel in the AR-15 would be .300 Whisper/BLK, or 9mm, and they would be suppressed all the time unless during transport.

    Braces allow you to carry in the vehicle even in States that have unconstitutional provisions like limiting rifles only to the trunk separate from ammo, even if they’re a "shall issue" State.
     
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    DRT308

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    Braces are for teeth. Use a 2 point sling push out tight with good cheek weld and the ar pistol is as stable as a sbr.
     

    mcameron

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    If you want an SBR then do it right and Form 1 a lower. Braces are for pussys
    i have SBRs, i have Pistol braces......theres 0 practical difference between the 2.

    Braces have 1 distinct benefit in that you can travel with the MUCH easier......especially if you use it as a truck gun and travel frequently across state lines......they are also $200 cheaper and you dont need to register them with the govt.



    regarding short barrel ARs.......the shortest i have is 7".......runs 100%.......honestly i wouldnt go shorter than that in a 5.56

    im running a Witt machine SME muzzle device, and i would say it is a MUST for anything this short....muzzle blast is a non-issue and it is quite frankly really pleasant to shoot.

    if you are deadset on 5" barrels, i would go with .300BO or even a Pistol caliber

    Braces are for teeth. Use a 2 point sling push out tight with good cheek weld and the ar pistol is as stable as a sbr.
    the 90's want their technique back.....use a fucking brace.
     

    Yondering

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    im running a Witt machine SME muzzle device, and i would say it is a MUST for anything this short....muzzle blast is a non-issue and it is quite frankly really pleasant to shoot.

    Or, here's a thought - instead of using a really short barrel and 4" of some sort of flash can on the end, just use a barrel that's 3" longer with a normal muzzle device. Free ballistics, and usually less weight too.

    IMO this latest fad of attaching big heavy flash cans to really short barrels is pretty dumb, and counterproductive. That stupid Edge in the OP looks like it's as long as a normal 9"-10" AR upper, but only delivers 5.5" barrel ballistics.
     
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    mcameron

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    Or, here's a thought - instead of using a really short barrel and 4" of some sort of flash can on the end, just use a barrel that's 3" longer with a normal muzzle device. Free ballistics, and usually less weight too.

    IMO this latest fad of attaching big heavy flash cans to really short barrels is pretty dumb, and counterproductive. That stupid Edge in the OP looks like it's as long as a normal 9"-10" AR upper, but only delivers 5.5" barrel ballistics.
    calm your tits sugarbush.....i run the same device on my 10.5 as well, as it also cuts down on flash really well......so im still 3" shorter.

    try not to assume everyone you talk to is a moron next time.
     

    houndog

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    Braces and stocks are getting closer and closer, particularly now that you can get braces that collapse/telescope. And the whole NFA thing is expensive and a PITA. It's not only the $200 tax stamp, but having to pay for fingerprint cards, passport photos, etc. And if you move to another state there's a whole other set of forms you have to fill out.

    However, I do still like stocks better than braces, particularly if you have any interest in shooting out beyond 100 yards. And I think the concern that the ATF may "revise" their guidance about braces is valid. The reality is that no one uses braces the way they are supposedly designed to be used and it can't have escaped the ATF's notice that the number of applications to make/mfg. an SBR has dropped ever since braces came into the picture. With Biden, who has never made any bones about being anti-gun, in the White House who knows what's going to happen.

    For those of you who think laws and regulations can't be "reinterpreted" talk to someone who lives in MA. One morning the state AG woke up and decreed that the post-AWB AR's that you had been able to buy for 20 years were in fact illegal, that anyone who owned one was technically a felon (although for now she would not prosecute you if you bought your gun when everyone thought they were legal) and that all future sales were prohibited.
     

    shoobe01

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    Get the paperwork to SBR an AR lower.

    Buy... wait for it... a bunch of uppers! Any 5.56 over 11.5 is reasonable. Any .300 around 9-12". Get the shortest 9 mm you feel like getting (mine is 10" but that's just to give me something to hold on to).

    A comedy-short 5.56 is then just an upper, okay if it ends up being a range toy you use once a year, as it's not all that paperwork for just one gun.
     

    db2000

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    This. There are better tools for the job of self defense in the home. I personally wouldn't go below 10" for a 5.56 SBR/Pistol/whatever. Perhaps a .300BLK or pistol caliber (9mm/.40/.45) would suit your short-barreled needs better with much less noise & wasted energy.
    Yep
     

    TJ Stedke

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    American Rifleman tested the Edge PDW and with tiny barrels come tiny velocities. They were getting ~1610 fps with 75gr and ~1750 fps with 62gr. Both loads only had 430 lbs of energy. They shot it at 50 yards and were getting 1" to 4" groups depending on the ammo. The thing is almost pushing 6 lbs and has an absurd price tag. I personally don't see the point...

    For *now* braces are legal and nobody has ever been arrested for shouldering one...but who knows what the future holds.
    I really want to get the EDGE PDW, when I can find one... But I do have a few questions.

    My *CURRENT* understanding is that I can shoulder the brace?

    This will be a home defense rifle with the occasional range day trips. With the 5.5" barrel would kind of groups can I expect, 4" MOA @ 100, Maybe more MOA and could you guess the velocities?

    I have never owned a AR type rifle, what do YOU see as the problems I may run into with this rifle?

    Don't waste your time or money with a 5.5" barrel. You'd get a LOT more velocity and energy (shooting a bullet that's 2x+ the grains at a much faster MV) with a 8-12" barrel chambered in 300BLK that uses pistol powder and will give you much more of a "full burn" without a massive muzzle flash and noise. If you want quiet, shoot sub-sonic 200+ grain 300BLK out of it. Check out the Muzzle Velocities at different barrel lengths and go with what you need, but I definitely wouldn't choose a barrel less than 8", and I second the suggestions on just making it a Class-III. You can put a brace on it (I like the SBA4) for the short-term while you wait for the tax stamp to come back, and easily swap out the brace for whatever stock you like once it's a Class-III.
     

    Pwoens

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    You also don't have to get approval from the ATF when you want to take a pistol with a brace across state lines.

    this is a great point! gotta be careful and know your laws if crossing state lines with an SBR
     
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    elcid79

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    ATF just sent a a cease and desist about the sba3 and a few other braces. Basically saying they are illegal? I don’t really know Jack diddly about them. So take this with a grain of salt and do your own research on it.
     

    UpSideDown

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    ATF just sent a a cease and desist about the sba3 and a few other braces. Basically saying they are illegal? I don’t really know Jack diddly about them. So take this with a grain of salt and do your own research on it.
    As of today or a week ago? Because that week ago one was blown way out of proportion and said absolutely *nothing* about them being illegal.
     

    Praetorian_6

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    I've ordered 2 pistols, and I frankly hate the fact that I have to keep up with which brace is legal now and illegal next week, and legal again the week after. I'd SBR and get it over with, but then I have to figure out which ones I can visit my extended family with and what crap I have to go through to do it. Seems crazy to me that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I guess, I'll just take all stocks and braces off of my weapons when I go across state lines.
     

    UpSideDown

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    The only brace that's been at issue is the Q one. Nothing else has changed. The ATF letter to SB was regarding their advertising and an issue with a *shotgun* sent with a brace for evaluation. Nothing else has changed. That opinion piece blew everything out of proportion.
     

    Yondering

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    Easy answer is to have both SBR and pistol lowers. AR lowers swap so easily that it just makes sense to use either one as needed. Multiples of each are better.

    Of course the downside is just money, and some of us have less than others, but sometimes it helps to see a reminder that poor/cheap are temporary limitations, not goals. This comment has more to do with mindset and priorities than what’s in your bank account.
     

    Warrior 45

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    The only brace that's been at issue is the Q one. Nothing else has changed. The ATF letter to SB was regarding their advertising and an issue with a *shotgun* sent with a brace for evaluation. Nothing else has changed. That opinion piece blew everything out of proportion.

    That’s not quite true. I have read several articles stating that ATF has issues with several other braces. In fact, there is a leaked “town hall meeting” where the acting director talked about this.
     

    hollowoutadime

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    The Sig MPX brace in 9mm or a DD4 in .300 blk both work well. I'd shoot subs and budget for a can. I wouldn't want to shoot supersonic (556) without a can.
     

    fdkay

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    I spoke with a local ATF agent the other day.
    It seems like the honey badger issue was a result of Q more or less thumbing their nose at the ATF.
    The way he explained it is this:
    If you look at the other manufacturers of pistol caliber AR's, they also catalog rifle variants of the same or similar thing, their intention being to offer both a pistol and a rifle.
    If you look at the Q website, they ONLY offer a pistol, no rifle variant, so for them, Q was trying to circumvent the rules.
    A specious argument for sure, because ANYONE that buys a pistol varian with a brace is trying to circumvent the stupid rules.

    Extremely short barrels on a 5.56 are pretty fucking stupid. When you consider the military complains of piss poor performance from a 14.5" carbine, WTF do think is going to happen when you go less than half of that.
    Here is a dandy chart showing the difference between 5.56 and .300 blk.
    If you want a 5" barrel, go with a pistol caliber.

    FHHJ4.jpg
     

    UpSideDown

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    That’s not quite true. I have read several articles stating that ATF has issues with several other braces. In fact, there is a leaked “town hall meeting” where the acting director talked about this.
    They stated that they haven't approved combos, and were talking about advertising with the SB stuff. The ATF has not made any official statement making millions of people into felons. They only one they've come out about at a level that is actually risky is the Q version - which SUCKS. They haven't gone out saying that SBA3/4's turn guns into rifles though.
     
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    Warrior 45

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    They stated that they haven't approved combos, and were talking about advertising with the SB stuff. The ATF has not made any official statement making millions of people into felons. They only one they've come out about at a level that is actually risky is the Q version - which SUCKS. They haven't gone out saying that SBA3/4's turn guns into rifles though.

    Here’s an interesting read on the topic.

     

    max1840

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    Disregarding the stock debates, I'd get nothing shorter than a 10.5" barrel from a reliability point of view. This is my opinion only. I have 2 SBR's and the 14.5" will shoot anything reliably while the 10.5" won't.
     

    Warrior 45

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    Never had an issue with my 10.5”. It’s a great SBR, I also like the 11.5”. The 10.5” is great for confined spaces. The 11.5” is a better all around length.
     

    shoobe01

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    The conventional wisdom from several people I vaguely know who use, specify, or maintain lots (dozens to thousands) of short guns is 11.5-12.5 is about the shortest you go in 5.56 for both reliability and reasonable, short range, terminal ballistics.

    .300 BLK was designed for (IIRC) 10" ish guns.

    And of course pistol calibers work great down to almost no barrel at all, carbine-wise.
     
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