Rifle Scopes Scope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Phil3

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I see kits from Wheeler and Kokopelli that offer scope alignment tools and lapping bars. Of what real use are the alignment bars if you have to use the lapping bar anyway to fix any misalignment? Why not just drop in the lapping bar and fix what the alignment bars would have shown needs fixing in the first place? I would like the Kokopelli product, but the entire kit with alignment tool and lapping bar is a lot more than the lap bar by itself.

- Phil
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

A good lapping bar will come with two alignment bars that come to a point. You can make sure you are centered before you start. I've never not lapped a ring I installed and have never not noticed marks that needed the lapping. This only makes sure you have close to 100% contact but I for one think it's worth the time.
 

psinclair

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

+1. Have the Kokopelli kit....well worth the price.
 

hydro556

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

The alignment bars are supposed to let you know how much mis-alignment you have and will let you see the correction you make.
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

I intend on doing the lapping with a one piece Armalite AR mount. Is there anything different when it comes to lapping and alignment with a one piece mount vs individual rings?

- Phil
 

99HMC4

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MonnieRock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello Everyone,

Is it safe to lap aluminum rings leaving bare metal?

Thank you,
Monnie </div></div>

Yes, I might use some aluminum black after but yes. The scope alignment bars with the point are useless. You have to use flat or squared face bars to get right alignment...
 

MonnieRock

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 99HMC4</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MonnieRock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello Everyone,

Is it safe to lap aluminum rings leaving bare metal?

Thank you,
Monnie </div></div>

Yes, I might use some aluminum black after but yes. The scope alignment bars with the point are useless. You have to use flat or squared face bars to get right alignment...</div></div>

I agree, will use the 34mm kit from Kokopelli. what is and where do I get aluminum black?

Thank you 99HMC4
Monnie
 

Victor N TN

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Have you tried bedding a scope in the rings before? I've done it a few times. I think I like it.
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The alignment bars are supposed to let you know how much mis-alignment you have and will let you see the correction you make. </div></div>

No joke? Why I never
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 99HMC4</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MonnieRock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello Everyone,

Is it safe to lap aluminum rings leaving bare metal?

Thank you,
Monnie </div></div>

Yes, I might use some aluminum black after but yes. The scope alignment bars with the point are useless. You have to use flat or squared face bars to get right alignment... </div></div>


I tried those square bars once but couldn't get them into my round rings.

Fact is it's a preference. I find the point to point very easy to see where work needs to be done. Up down or side to side. I assume you would see the same when using some other type.
 

doc76251

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

The alignment bars are generally used for "twist in" type rings.

For Pic and Weaver type rings and bases they have limited function simply because if you aren't lined up (and you mounted them right) the base and/or the rigs are screwed. Exceptions would be windage adjustable rings obviously.

Cheers,

Doc
 

Kokopelli

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

You may call it a preference, but pointed end bars will tell you ABSOULUTELY NOTHING
 

hydro556

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Benchshoot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The alignment bars are supposed to let you know how much mis-alignment you have and will let you see the correction you make. </div></div>

No joke? Why I never </div></div>

Simply answered his question, cool daddy.
 

99HMC4

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kokopelli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may call it a preference, but pointed end bars will tell you ABSOULUTELY NOTHING </div></div>

Its true, very simple geometry. Stevie wonder and Ray Charles could see that.....
Ive heard about guys bedding their rings but there is now way in hell theres enough room for that in my Badger max 50s. Those rings and my good strait steel base line up great without lapping....
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kokopelli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may call it a preference, but pointed end bars will tell you ABSOULUTELY NOTHING </div></div>

Really? You telling me if you twist in a ring that those bars won't tell you a thing? A lot of people over a lot of years would disgaree with you. I think you're wrong, now I will admit, I've never seen a square end bar. You mind getting a picture of one for me. I am not sure I know what your talking about,or if you do for that matter.
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Yep, matching the pointed ends on the bars tell you nothing. Hell, they could be touching and be damn near at 90 degrees to one another or angled with one another in two planes at once, and still be touching. Take two pen ends and touch them and tell me those two pens are exactly along the same axis.

Go here, scroll halfway down, and read. This will explain it well.

http://www.kokopelliproducts.com/

- Phil

 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yep, matching the pointed ends on the bars tell you nothing. Hell, they could be touching and be damn near at 90 degrees to one another or angled with one another in two planes at once, and still be touching. Take to pen ends and touch them and tell me those two pens are exactly along the same axis.

Go here, scroll halfway down, and read. This will explain it well.

http://www.kokopelliproducts.com/

- Phil

</div></div>

Phil I hate to tell you but that misses one big point. Oh before I say this I will tell you I have a minor in mathmatics. Your example of holding two pens together is flawed. You failed to consider that the two perfect cylinders were being held by two Rings attached along a staight line. That line and height is what you are measuring. Assuming the Rings are holding if either one is off even a degree it will be obvious at the two points of the cylinders.
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

You are assuming that the BORES of each ring and the virtual cylinders each forms extending out from the ring bores are parallel with one another. If they are not (parallel), then the point-to-point method fails.

Using the pens, imagine each has a ring on it. You can easily see how you can maintain point to point touch and move the pens (rings) around relative to one another. The Kokopelli product not only detects problems with misalignment in height and left to right, but also angular misalignment between the two virtual scope ring bores. Point to point can not measure angular misalignments.

- Phil

 

bigwheeler

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Phil3 is right on. I have been using the pointed bars for years and they are next to
worthless. I always tweak the front ring a bit if it starts lapping like it is still twisted, and many times they have been.
 

Kokopelli

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are assuming that the BORES of each ring and the virtual cylinders each forms extending out from the ring bores are parallel with one another. If they are not (parallel), then the point-to-point method fails.

Using the pens, imagine each has a ring on it. You can easily see how you can maintain point to point touch and move the pens (rings) around relative to one another. The Kokopelli product not only detects problems with misalignment in height and left to right, but also angular misalignment between the two virtual scope ring bores. Point to point can not measure angular misalignments.

- Phil



Ahhh, It does my heart good to hear such talk! I've only been at it for 15 1/2 years and the light is finlally beginning to shine!
To Mr. minor in mathematics: A simple first-semester high-school Geometry problem: Picture two equilateral triangles one atop the other, with vertical axes defined, standing point-to-point. You have no other information, just the triangles one atop the other. You do not know if the bases are in parallel or have any external information. Can you solve the problem of whether the vertical axex are in coincidence??

That is what you are looking at with the pointed bars. That they have cylinders attached to the bases of the triangles is immaterial to solving the problem. Can it be done?

My forty-seven years of making my living with mathematics, my training in the testing and adjusting of
all sorts of surveying instruments and many years of practical application of Plane and Solid Geometry, trigonometry and Sperical Trigonometry tells me NO IT CAN'T BE SOLVED!!! You are lacking one element to solve the problem of axial alignment. Flipping the triangle to bring the bases together, thereby placing the points internally within the cylinders changes the whole picture. Now, in the practical application of the geometry in the problem of axial alignment of the cyliders, and thus the scope rings, if the ends match, you have axial alignment! Dirt Simple!

Opinions have validity based upon several criteria. First, the speaker must have training, education if you will. Next they need the practical application of the subject or science being discussed. Lastly, they must have experience in the subject discussed, the more years, the more weight their opinion carries.

One hears many opinions expressed around the subject of guns and what it takes to make them shoot well. It's a very interesting subject and all have their opinions. The validity of those opinions must be weighed by the education, application and experience of the one giving the opinion. I frequent some forums riddled with top drawer benchrest shooters and the gunsmiths who make the guns they shoot. I just hide and watch and I learn a lot, but will not live long enough to be anywhere as good as those folks! When your car don't verk ya take it to da guy who can do da best job! Happy hunting!

Kokopelli


</div></div>
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kokopelli</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are assuming that the BORES of each ring and the virtual cylinders each forms extending out from the ring bores are parallel with one another. If they are not (parallel), then the point-to-point method fails.

Using the pens, imagine each has a ring on it. You can easily see how you can maintain point to point touch and move the pens (rings) around relative to one another. The Kokopelli product not only detects problems with misalignment in height and left to right, but also angular misalignment between the two virtual scope ring bores. Point to point can not measure angular misalignments.

- Phil



Ahhh, It does my heart good to hear such talk! I've only been at it for 15 1/2 years and the light is finlally beginning to shine!
To Mr. minor in mathematics: A simple first-semester high-school Geometry problem: Picture two equilateral triangles one atop the other, with vertical axes defined, standing point-to-point. You have no other information, just the triangles one atop the other. You do not know if the bases are in parallel or have any external information. Can you solve the problem of whether the vertical axex are in coincidence??

That is what you are looking at with the pointed bars. That they have cylinders attached to the bases of the triangles is immaterial to solving the problem. Can it be done?

My forty-seven years of making my living with mathematics, my training in the testing and adjusting of
all sorts of surveying instruments and many years of practical application of Plane and Solid Geometry, trigonometry and Sperical Trigonometry tells me NO IT CAN'T BE SOLVED!!! You are lacking one element to solve the problem of axial alignment. Flipping the triangle to bring the bases together, thereby placing the points internally within the cylinders changes the whole picture. Now, in the practical application of the geometry in the problem of axial alignment of the cyliders, and thus the scope rings, if the ends match, you have axial alignment! Dirt Simple!

Opinions have validity based upon several criteria. First, the speaker must have training, education if you will. Next they need the practical application of the subject or science being discussed. Lastly, they must have experience in the subject discussed, the more years, the more weight their opinion carries.

One hears many opinions expressed around the subject of guns and what it takes to make them shoot well. It's a very interesting subject and all have their opinions. The validity of those opinions must be weighed by the education, application and experience of the one giving the opinion. I frequent some forums riddled with top drawer benchrest shooters and the gunsmiths who make the guns they shoot. I just hide and watch and I learn a lot, but will not live long enough to be anywhere as good as those folks! When your car don't verk ya take it to da guy who can do da best job! Happy hunting!

Kokopelli


</div></div> </div></div>

You may have learned some, but not enough there teacher. Do you teach second or third grade? You are making a assumption that the cylinders have ends that are flat and that are cut at exactly 90 degrees to the cylinder. The problem is the people who make these thingss don't say that, they only say the points at centered. Now see, you learned something today.
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Good Lord man, read the Kokopelli site! www.kokopelliproducts.com. It can't be any plainer than that.

It is obvious the ends of the cylinders ARE 90 degrees to the cylinder. How else is Kokopelli going to be able to detect misalignments as small as .002" (stated on the site). The Kokopelli product (patented) uses no points, because it doesn't work. Other people are using the FLAT ends of the point-to-point tools because they know the points don't work, but those ends may not be ground flat.

I tried an experiment at home on a rifle using two wooden dowels with pins stuck in the ends to mimic the point-to-point method. The points touched when mounted in the rings. I then moved the rear ring to the side .10", which caused the points to NOT touch (by .10"). No problem, I just twisted the front ring so its dowel point touched the rear ring dowel point. Aligned? Not even close...I could not even fully sit the scope in the saddles.

Try the experiment Kokopelli has on his site (about halfway down), and the lightbulb will come on. And whats with the insults? Just what is that supposed to achieve?

- Phil
(not associated with Kokopelli Products)
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good Lord man, read the Kokopelli site! www.kokopelliproducts.com. It can't be any plainer than that.

It is obvious the ends of the cylinders ARE 90 degrees to the cylinder. How else is Kokopelli going to be able to detect misalignments as small as .002" (stated on the site). The Kokopelli product (patented) uses no points, because it doesn't work. Other people are using the FLAT ends of the point-to-point tools because they know the points don't work, but those ends may not be ground flat.

I tried an experiment at home on a rifle using two wooden dowels with pins stuck in the ends to mimic the point-to-point method. The points touched when mounted in the rings. I then moved the rear ring to the side .10", which caused the points to NOT touch (by .10"). No problem, I just twisted the front ring so its dowel point touched the rear ring dowel point. Aligned? Not even close...I could not even fully sit the scope in the saddles.

Try the experiment Kokopelli has on his site (about halfway down), and the lightbulb will come on. And whats with the insults? Just what is that supposed to achieve?

- Phil
(not associated with Kokopelli Products) </div></div>


Phil I hate to point out the obvious. You were wrong. Your experiment was wrong also. You put those two rings on a straight plane the only way those points will touch is in perfect alignment. I'll say it again, perfect alignment. You're trying to make a silly argument about something you don't know about. How many scopes you mounted or lapped there Phil? Just curious.

One other thing,why would you use wood rods? Do you not own a lapping tool?
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Wow. Not nearly good enough to prove your position by stating "you were wrong", "you experiment was wrong" without better arguments. How would your point-to-point tool detect the demonstrated misalignment in my experiment on an actual rifle? Show me how point-to-point would have detected that misalignment. It didn't.

Why using wood rods? Because it was the closest thing to those point-to-point tools that I obviously would NOT own. Do I own a lapping tool? A lapping tool is for fixing misalignment, not the ideal tool for detecting and measuring it.

Messages with continued insults and put-downs won't be responded to except to state I am disengaging further discussion with you because of it.

- Phil
 

99HMC4

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

I gotta say two things, one the pointed bars are a gimmick. If you really believe they work then by all means you deserve them, so use them till your bule in the face. They work but only 50% of they need to do. Second, I think "alignment" bars in general are kinda worthless with good mounts. Think about this, say I buy some flat ended alignment bars and align the rail on one of my rifles with a solid steel one piece picattiny rail with two Badger max 50 rings on it. Number one, for the price of this set up the better damn lign up! Number two WTF are you going to do if they dont line up? Get new ones? Or are you gonna lap the shit out of a set of $150 ringes until the are out of round and wont hold for shit? Use quality mounts/rings and stop trying to fix alignment problems with voodo and pixy dust.....
 

Kokopelli

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

Well 99HMC4, it doesn't matter how much money you spend on mounts and rings or how much you choose to demand they they line up. No matter the cost, no matter the brand, if you attach the finest base and the finest rings (even if both are perfect) to a warped receiver they just ain't gonna be straight PERIOD!! You need to correct this sort of problem (and it is quite common) by correcting the connection between the receiver and the base. In order to do that you will need an alignment test tool that will show you what is wrong, how badly it is wrong. in which direction it is wrong and show you correctly when you have effected the proper corrective measures. If you don't have a test tool that will do that THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO USE VOODOO AND PIXIE DUST!!
 

99HMC4

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

I agree about warped receiver 100%. I can also see your argument and the fact your in the business of selling this. Plus I never said expension rigs and bases will always line up right but they sure as hell will be better than most "hunting" style two piece mounts. I would bet to say that 90% of the guys who feel they have to lap their rings feel so because they were told to by "a friend" or "that guy at the gun shop". The other 10% either palin out just want to or they really do need it. It cant hurt unless you remove to much but I dont think its necessary on some set ups either...
 

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kokopelli</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well 99HMC4, it doesn't matter how much money you spend on mounts and rings or how much you choose to demand they they line up. No matter the cost, no matter the brand, if you attach the finest base and the finest rings (even if both are perfect) to a warped receiver they just ain't gonna be straight PERIOD!! You need to correct this sort of problem (and it is quite common) by correcting the connection between the receiver and the base. In order to do that you will need an alignment test tool that will show you what is wrong, how badly it is wrong. in which direction it is wrong and show you correctly when you have effected the proper corrective measures. If you don't have a test tool that will do that THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO USE VOODOO AND PIXIE DUST!! </div></div>

Right you are, just because your rings say Badger on the side doesn't mean they don't need lapping to make perfect contact. Why take the chance? If they don't need lapping the lapping tool won't hurt the rings. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain.
 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 99HMC4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I gotta say two things, one the pointed bars are a gimmick. If you really believe they work then by all means you deserve them, so use them till your bule in the face. They work but only 50% of they need to do. Second, I think "alignment" bars in general are kinda worthless with good mounts. Think about this, say I buy some flat ended alignment bars and align the rail on one of my rifles with a solid steel one piece picattiny rail with two Badger max 50 rings on it. Number one, for the price of this set up the better damn lign up! Number two WTF are you going to do if they dont line up? Get new ones? Or are you gonna lap the shit out of a set of $150 ringes until the are out of round and wont hold for shit? Use quality mounts/rings and stop trying to fix alignment problems with voodo and pixy dust..... </div></div>

 

Benchshoot

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. Not nearly good enough to prove your position by stating "you were wrong", "you experiment was wrong" without better arguments. How would your point-to-point tool detect the demonstrated misalignment in my experiment on an actual rifle? Show me how point-to-point would have detected that misalignment. It didn't.

Why using wood rods? Because it was the closest thing to those point-to-point tools that I obviously would NOT own. Do I own a lapping tool? A lapping tool is for fixing misalignment, not the ideal tool for detecting and measuring it.

Messages with continued insults and put-downs won't be responded to except to state I am disengaging further discussion with you because of it.

- Phil </div></div>

Phil where do you buy your 30mm wood dowels? I am not trying to insult you here but I think by your own talking you are trying to play us all for fools. I'm a smart guy, most on here are, we know BS when we smell it.
 

thebolt

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Re: Scope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

I have the Kokopelli kits (1", 30 mm and 35mm) and have used them all with complete satisfaction. They are very high quality products and are worth every cent. The web site has great explanation and pictures to show how these tools work. Buy the best and never look back!

http://www.kokopelliproducts.com/
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

"...Phil where do you buy your 30mm wood dowels..."?

The rifle used 1" rings.

"...I am not trying to insult you here but I think by your own talking you are trying to play us all for fools. I'm a smart guy, most on here are, we know BS when we smell it...".

If there is playing for fools, and BS, then you have effectively accused members Kokopelli, his patent, 99HMC4, and Bigwheeler of the same thing. They agree with my position.


 

our gang

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

The easy way is either SAKO or Burris Signature rings. They have plastic inserts, are self aligning, never mar a scope and Burris even makes them with eccentric shapes available to correct for a bad drilling job or get more range out of a scope with limited elevation adjustment.
 

Phil3

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Re: Sope Alignment - Lapping Bar all I Need?

I like the Burris Signature rings myself, and use them on one rifle. They work well. For my AR15, I could not find a riser rail and Signature rings that worked well and looked right. I wish Burris would package the insert idea into other rings like their Burris XTR series.

- Phil