Rifle Scopes Scope choice?

[bgavin]

Need some help choosing my next scope. I have a sig tango 4 6-24 now and like it but need more elevation. It has 50 moa and I have a 20 moa rail. We should have steel out to 2000 yards every 100 yards in the coming weeks.

• What is the platform for the scope? (Examples: Rifle (Bolt or Semi-Auto), Pistol (Semi-Auto or Revolver) sako a7 long range
• What cartridge are you shooting? (Examples: 22LR, 223, 308, 338 Lapua, etc.) 6.5 creedmoor
• What is your intended use for the scope? 90% steel and 10 hunting
• What type of conditions will you typically shoot in? daylight
• What are the typical distances you intend to shoot? range now we shoot to 1000 yards having steel cut now and will have 2000 yards steel every 100
• Are there any specific specifications you would like? i have moa now just need more elevation to move past 1000
• What is the price range you can afford? 1500 maybe to 2000

I am going to keep the tango 4 for the sako as a hunting rifle. I am ordering a pva john hancock and the new scope will get moved to it when it comes in. I don't do matches or anything just a group of friends that like to shoot every saturday or sunday.

I was looking at the vortex razor and spurh mount combo from one of the forum sponsors. Looking for advice on it and what else I should consider.

Thanks

 

[schlaiek]

If weight isn't a problem I suspect many here will recommend a razor2 4.5-27. there are usually several of them for sale on this forum for under $2000.

 

[bgavin]

Weight isn't a problem but that scope is only 70 moa. Would like one around 100. The gen 1 razor has 120. Is the 2nd gen that much better?

 

[schlaiek]

the 2nd gen razor has 113 moa travel per Vortex's website. I've never used a gen 1, but my gen 2 was great, if quite heavy.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/product...56-riflescope-with-ebr-2c-moa-reticle/reticle

 

[spaniel]

How many MOA to get to 2000 yards with a 6.5 Creedmoor? Personally I'd be looking to put the cash into a bigger rifle rather than the scope, if I had regular access to such a range. A puff of a breeze and you will be totally frustrated.

 

[M47Patton]

My understanding on the Razor gen2 is that the turret design allows for a max of 70 moa up. In other words, it has 113 total internal travel, divide by 2 gets you ~56 moa up. At a 20 moa rail and that should get you 76 moa u p but the turret system will limit you to 70 moa up. There would be no benefit to run a 30 moa or 40 moa rail since ~20 moa is all you'd be able to use. I don't have a gen2 so Im sure someone can correct me if Im wrong.

I just picked up a gen1 razor for my 338.

Your altitude will play a role too. Pushing a 140gr berger hybrid at 2900 fps out of my 260, I needed 64 moa to reach 1 mile (1760 yards) at 6500ft. At 1000 ft I would have needed a lot more.

 

[Sharpened Graphite]

There would be no benefit to run a 30 moa or 40 moa rail since ~20 moa is all you'd be able to use. I don't have a gen2 so Im sure someone can correct me if Im wrong.

Clarify what you mean. Why would you be limited to ~20 MOA?

 

[bgavin]

I was looking under the specs and not features tab and misread about the moa. That sucks about the topping out at 70. Does the gen 1 do that as well. I want to get a 20 moa spurh so a total of 40 moa total.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Clarify what you mean. Why would you be limited to ~20 MOA?

Optical center = 56 Moa + 20 Moa Rail = 76 Moa, but restricted to 70 moa in turret design. So there's 6 moa already you can't use, 30 would be 16 and 40 would be 26 moa left over you couldn't use.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I was looking under the specs and not features tab and misread about the moa. That sucks about the topping out at 70. Does the gen 1 do that as well. I want to get a 20 moa spurh so a total of 40 moa total.

From what I understand, a lot of ELR is using the Gen 1 because of its range, so I'm assuming its not limited too much.

If you went with a mil version gen ii, a 20 moa (5.8 ish mils) rail, and a Spuhr (6 mil) mount, you could get ~26 mils or so adjustment. So that's just shy of 90 moa.

 

[M47Patton]

I was looking under the specs and not features tab and misread about the moa. That sucks about the topping out at 70. Does the gen 1 do that as well. I want to get a 20 moa spurh so a total of 40 moa total.

I don't believe the gen1 has the same issue. Based on Vortex's documentation on their site, it seems like the 70 moa up limitation is related to the gen2s turret design. The Gen 1 uses a different turret design. I also have a pst gen2 which uses the same turret design as the gen1 razor and I was able to use nearly all the internal adjustment with a combination of 20 moa rail and burris signature rings. I will be taking my gen1 razor out for the first time this weekend, so if someone else doesn't chime in with the answer in I can report my findings.

 

[Dthomas3523]

My napkin math on the Gen II mil version is 28 mils (specs is 28.5, but for ease, 28) / 2 = 14 mil optical center.

14 + 6 mil Spuhr + 6 mil (20 moa = 5.8, but lets just round up again) rail = 26 mil.

26 x 3.6 = 93.6"

93.6" / 1.047" = 89.39828080229226 Moa.

Someone feel free to check my math, it's late and I may have messed this one up.

 

[alaskalanche]

Yeah your math is right but the Razor turrets limit one to roughly 70 moa or 21 MILs.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yeah your math is right but the Razor turrets limit one to roughly 70 moa or 21 MILs.

Isn't that only in the Moa version? I was basing my math on the Mil version, which would give more overall travel. 28.5 mils vs 70 moa.

I guess what I was trying to convey to the OP, but didn't do a good job at, is that if he were to go with the Mil over the Moa version, he'd have more overall travel due to turret design.

 

[M47Patton]

Isn't that only in the Moa version? I was basing my math on the Mil version, which would give more overall travel. 28.5 mils vs 70 moa.

I guess what I was trying to convey to the OP, but didn't do a good job at, is that if he were to go with the Mil over the Moa version, he'd have more overall travel due to turret design.

From Vortex website on the mil version:

Max Elevation Adjustment28.5 MRAD (See Features Tab)


http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/razor-hd-gen-2-45-27x56-riflescope-with-ebr-1c-mrad-reticle

Same turret design, mil vs moa shouldn't matter.

You're right, I didnt catch that. Interesting that you get more up with mil vs moa.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just one of the other things that makes mils better than moa (in my opinion).

1/4 moa is finer adjustment than people can hold at longer ranges.

Mils is more realistic as to what you can accomplish and gives you a larger range of travel.

 

[DrRansom]

If you are even considering $2k, hands down get one of the Schmidt PM II 5-25 DT P4Fine - those are $3200 scopes ($3700 list not long before that), and you can get them now for low 2's.

 

[Downtown]

I cannot find the thread now, but in a thread discussing the record Canadian sniper shot Frank shows a prism that easily and simply adds 100 (or more) mil to any scope. This allows you to keep the same head position, even dialed to extremes. Perhaps not relevant here, but fascinating for the extreme long distances.

 

[bgavin]

Thanks for all the advice. That's odd the mil is more elevation than the moa on the vortex. I'm glad I posted here.

Friend told me rule of thumb was to stay out of the top and bottom 10% of elevation. Is this correct?

The 2000 yard mark is just what we have available and why not. None of us may be able to hit the broad side of a barn at that distance. Me especially, I hadn't shot over 300 yards before a few months ago. I've worked to 1000 and want to go further if I can. Just something fun to try.

 

[alaskalanche]

From Vortex website on the mil version:

Max Elevation Adjustment28.5 MRAD (See Features Tab)


http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/razor-hd-gen-2-45-27x56-riflescope-with-ebr-1c-mrad-reticle

Same turret design, mil vs moa shouldn't matter.

You're right, I didnt catch that. Interesting that you get more up with mil vs moa.

That may be total adjustment and it may be different on the AMG vs Razor Gen 2 but I did not gain anything going from a 20 to 40 MOA rail with my AMG...both stopped me at 21 MIL which suggests to me the scope has more travel than the turret design allow to be used?

 

[bgavin]

I don't believe the gen1 has the same issue. Based on Vortex's documentation on their site, it seems like the 70 moa up limitation is related to the gen2s turret design. The Gen 1 uses a different turret design. I also have a pst gen2 which uses the same turret design as the gen1 razor and I was able to use nearly all the internal adjustment with a combination of 20 moa rail and burris signature rings. I will be taking my gen1 razor out for the first time this weekend, so if someone else doesn't chime in with the answer in I can report my findings.

Please let me know what you find on the elevation and how you like it.

Thanks

 

[Dthomas3523]

That may be total adjustment and it may be different on the AMG vs Razor Gen 2 but I did not gain anything going from a 20 to 40 MOA rail with my AMG...both stopped me at 21 MIL which suggests to me the scope has more travel than the turret design allow to be used?

That's odd. The turrets on the amg should allow for something like 27.5 mil. So you should be able to see a difference between 20 and 40 moa. Past that you would not get anything else.

I will check here in a bit with my AMG, but I got just shy of 28 mils of total travel from bottom to top if I remember correctly.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just check the AMG. When I loosen the elevation cap screws, I get 27.7 mils from bottom to top. I get the exact same (obviously) when I tight the cap down and run it from zero up. So lets call it 27.5.

So, 40 moa rail = 11.6(ish) mils.

27.5 / 2 = 13.75+11.6 = 25.35.

So, you should theoretically get 25(ish) mils from 40 moa and 19.5 moa from a 20 moa base. Of course actual mileage will vary from rifle to rifle.

I believe LowLight said he got 20.5 mils with just a 20moa base in his review and expected he could get close to the full amount with added incline.

 

[M47Patton]

Please let me know what you find on the elevation and how you like it.

Thanks

With a 100 yard zero I have 22.5 mils (~75 moa) of up travel, with the gen1 razor + 20 moa rail.


Initial impression of the scope is very good.
Definitely a step up from the past gen 2.

 

[Sharpened Graphite]

Optical center = 56 Moa + 20 Moa Rail = 76 Moa, but restricted to 70 moa in turret design. So there's 6 moa already you can't use, 30 would be 16 and 40 would be 26 moa left over you couldn't use.

You're implying if I run a 400 MOA rail (let's pretend), I would have none of the adjustments available? What?

I would just have 400-456 MOA of up adjustment.

Why would an external rail affect what you have left? Unless you're insisting on zeroing at 100.

Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, or something's lost in translation.

 

[M47Patton]

You're implying if I run a 400 MOA rail (let's pretend), I would have none of the adjustments available? What?

I would just have 400-456 MOA of up adjustment.

Why would an external rail affect what you have left? Unless you're insisting on zeroing at 100.

Maybe I'm just having a brain fart, or something's lost in translation.

I think you are taking my original comment too literal. I was speaking in the context of being able to zero at 100, considering the type of shooting OP said he was planning.

Nothing is preventing you from putting a 400 moa rail on your rifle. If you don't care or want a 100 yard zero then sure, you can put whatever cant you want on there.

 

[Sharpened Graphite]

Okay. So it was in context of a 100 yd zero. Brain fart on my end confirmed. lol

 

[Dthomas3523]

Yea, sorry. Most everything here is typically based on 100 yd zero unless you’re only shooting ELR.

 

[bgavin]

With a 100 yard zero I have 22.5 mils (~75 moa) of up travel, with the gen1 razor + 20 moa rail.


Initial impression of the scope is very good.
Definitely a step up from the past gen 2.

Thank you sir. Leaning toward the gen 1 or gen2 in mils. For the price difference with me just doing this as a hobby for now the razor 1 is winning. Can always upgrade down the road. Just need the extra elevation for now. I never thought several months ago I would be shooting at 1000 yards much less wanting to go further.