Rifle Scopes Scoping On The Cheap
- Thread starter Viper1
- Start date
I've gone through 40+ $100-500 scopes in the last three years. You may want to try the Mueller 4.5-14x40 APT. It has the basics for a tactical scope, mildot, exposed knobs with turn counters, and a 30mm tube with lots of elevation. Glass wise it is similar to Super Snipers, Bushnell 3200 series, Burris FFII for compairson. Street price around $150. I have one mounted on a 50bmg that took out one of my SS scopes. It is a good budget scope to try. None of the other Muellers are close to as good except the old TacIIs.
The Primary Arms 4-14x44 FFP scope may be worth a try. It is very close in design to the Falcon (except the Falcon recticle). BSA ($250 Midway Exclusive) and FM also produce(ed) a knockoff of the Falcon. I have several of the FMs and compaired to the Falcon I had looked to have same metal under the knobs, also glass quality was very close. There have been some problems associated with Falcon scopes, but mine did fine, and the 3-4 FMs I have have done good so far.
The Midway exclusive Weaver 3-10x is a good value ($299). Sightron SII with mildots start in the $300s if you shop around. You mentioned LE, Leupold's new Mark AR Mod1 scopes have .1mil turrents and start in the $200s for LE (no turn counters on knobs). I have not seen the specific model, but Sightron has a SIII 10x tac for under $500, if glass is similar to the other SIIIs that would get glass on a tactical scope for under $500.
I'm not sure why the Mueller APT has not become more popular, the old APV with 1" tube is extremely popular with rimfire shooters and the APT is much nicer. I'm sure the scope is made to order through hakko/japan optics limited like pretty much every other scope brand is.
The Primary Arms 4-14x44 FFP scope may be worth a try. It is very close in design to the Falcon (except the Falcon recticle). BSA ($250 Midway Exclusive) and FM also produce(ed) a knockoff of the Falcon. I have several of the FMs and compaired to the Falcon I had looked to have same metal under the knobs, also glass quality was very close. There have been some problems associated with Falcon scopes, but mine did fine, and the 3-4 FMs I have have done good so far.
The Midway exclusive Weaver 3-10x is a good value ($299). Sightron SII with mildots start in the $300s if you shop around. You mentioned LE, Leupold's new Mark AR Mod1 scopes have .1mil turrents and start in the $200s for LE (no turn counters on knobs). I have not seen the specific model, but Sightron has a SIII 10x tac for under $500, if glass is similar to the other SIIIs that would get glass on a tactical scope for under $500.
I'm not sure why the Mueller APT has not become more popular, the old APV with 1" tube is extremely popular with rimfire shooters and the APT is much nicer. I'm sure the scope is made to order through hakko/japan optics limited like pretty much every other scope brand is.
OP,
You can't get there from here.
If you can change your mind on the first focal plane, your world opens up to some really decent scopes.
I use a Mueller Tac 2 as a hunting scope. I would prefer matching adjustments and reticle, but I bought the scope before I knew any better.
It is a VERY nice scope for the money.
The glass is VERY good for the price range, it has a mil-dot and 1/4" adjustments.
I put mine on a 7mm magnum with no ill effects.
I highly recommend the weaver grand slam tactical 3-10 from midway. My Dad has two. The are excellent scopes and probably the best bang for the buck in all of optics, when on sale, which is often.
You can't get there from here.
If you can change your mind on the first focal plane, your world opens up to some really decent scopes.
I use a Mueller Tac 2 as a hunting scope. I would prefer matching adjustments and reticle, but I bought the scope before I knew any better.
It is a VERY nice scope for the money.
The glass is VERY good for the price range, it has a mil-dot and 1/4" adjustments.
I put mine on a 7mm magnum with no ill effects.
I highly recommend the weaver grand slam tactical 3-10 from midway. My Dad has two. The are excellent scopes and probably the best bang for the buck in all of optics, when on sale, which is often.
I think a more appropriate title to this thread is "Missin' On The Cheap". At least you will have something to blame as your target laughs at you as it trots away. Just kiddin man... Good luck on your search and hopefully one day you won't pass on the 'buy it cheap buy it twice' lifestyle to your son. It's worse than a heroine habit.
If I was going that cheap id look into Bushnells lower end stuff.
Take a look at the Falcon Menace 4-14, they are FFP, have a side focus and 30mm tube, not a bad scope for the beginner or someone on a budget. I ran one in tactical comps for nearly an entire season due to lack of funds for better glass, it did just fine.
There is one here for $325 shipped, here is the link; http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/optics-sale/192271-falcon-menace-4-14x44.html
Kirk R
There is one here for $325 shipped, here is the link; http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/optics-sale/192271-falcon-menace-4-14x44.html
Kirk R
G'Day All,
Well, I've made a tactical decision and I'm putting a Millett 6-25X56 LRS-1 on my new 338 Lapua build. I has a 35mm tube, locking towers and 140 MOA elevation adjustment with 1/4 MOA turret clicks. They, the people who are selling the scope, make a big deal out of it being designed and built for large caliber rifle use so maybe the mighty Lapua won't wreck it.
I'll have the build done next week and then to the range. We've only got a 300 yd range but that will let me achieve a zero and to see if it will maintain that 0 through normal use. $453 from Optical Planet.
Viper1
Well, I've made a tactical decision and I'm putting a Millett 6-25X56 LRS-1 on my new 338 Lapua build. I has a 35mm tube, locking towers and 140 MOA elevation adjustment with 1/4 MOA turret clicks. They, the people who are selling the scope, make a big deal out of it being designed and built for large caliber rifle use so maybe the mighty Lapua won't wreck it.
I'll have the build done next week and then to the range. We've only got a 300 yd range but that will let me achieve a zero and to see if it will maintain that 0 through normal use. $453 from Optical Planet.
Viper1
Well Viper,I hope you have better luck with your Millet than I did. Mine was fine on the 223,but lasted only one match on my 308. Nice scope for the moneybut IMO it's only good on low recoil guns.
Your 338 is going to chew up that scope and spit out little pieces. There is no way a Chinese scope is going to hold up to a 338. I had a millet 4-16 before I knew better and won a millet 10x at a local match (what a cruel joke). The 4-16 was broken out of the box and it's replacement didn't hold up to 223 recoil for 100 rounds. The 10x lasted about 20 rounds on a 308 AR.
I'd return it before you have to deal with Millets customer service and ebay it for a loss. Millet makes you pay for shipping to and from and it takes them about 2-3 months to send a replacement. For the same money you could have a SWFA SS that will take 338 recoil like a boss. I can tell you from experience that it's the ONLY scope under $500 that's going to offer target turrets and take heavy recoil.
Well Redneck, we'll just have to see. I phoned the Millet tech support on another issue. Seems the 6-25 LRS-1 is a 2nd focal point reticle which means that for scope ranging it only is "on" at 12.5 and 25 mag. I don't like that but given the price, I'll give it a try. Having 3 LR rifles I simply can't afford three Night Force optics or the tactical Leupolds on my retirement budget. So if the Millett stands up, I'm in heaven.
While I was on the phone with Millett (actually Bushnell) tech support I questioned him on the robustness of the scope and he swore that the LRS-1 would eat Lapua all day and go home happy. Now, I'm an old fool but not a damned old fool so I'm not as naïve as that last statement might lead you to believe, But, I am ever hopeful.
A Fool And His Money Eh?
Viper1
There are scopes in your price range that would take 338 but the millet is not one of them. Of course the customer service rep is going to tell you it's a great scope, if he told the truth and nobody bought them he wouldn't have a job.
Don't say we didn't warn you.
Don't say we didn't warn you.
If trying to stay cheap, better to still have good glass and give up some features. A Nikon scope will have you good glass, durability, and mildot (some exclusively from midway) you will better off than a barska or other China scope with lots of tacticool features.
The cheapest scope we recommend are the Vortex Viper line and the the Bushnell Tactical.
cstactical
Mike @ CST
cstactical
Mike @ CST
Yeah, that... for the most part.
That Bushnell 10x40 is a good scope for the money. One of my friends used the Bushy for 2 years with no problems. I used a Weaver Grand Slam Tactical 3-10x (available exclusively at Midway USA for $299 when on sale) when I started, and it worked pretty well as a budget optic.
But, I have to admit that I'm ALSO considered the cheapest person on Earth. I commute in a $600 car, and can pinch a penny with the best of them. But, my rifle is currently wearing a S&B scope. The scope is definitely better than anything else I've ever used, and it has taken my shooting to another level. Just some food for thought.
Buy once,cry once.
I have a bushnell tactical 10x40 and think the glass is awful. My legend ultra hd bushnell is 5x more clear and crisp. From my experience the 250$$ bushnell tactical ain't worth it's cheap price.
I had a millett trs-1 on a 308 r700 and it held up ok. I had a millett dms-1 on an ar15 in .223 and the reticle came loose after a few hundred rounds. Maybe there is more to multi-directional forces of semi auto rifles? Anyway, I'm back to a super sniper 10x mil/mil with the side focus and this is the lowest I would go again. I will never go back to millett due to the reticle falling on such low recoil as well as the glass just isn't as clear as the super sniper.
That said, I am Savin for a vortex viper pst 6-24x moa/moa scope as it gets much better reviews from people I trust and seems to be a great value for the money with a good warranty.
That said, I am Savin for a vortex viper pst 6-24x moa/moa scope as it gets much better reviews from people I trust and seems to be a great value for the money with a good warranty.
Your not paying for good glass. Your paying for good internals and tracking and matching reticle/turrets.
If it had great glass, it wouldnt be a $200 scope.
All of this is great advice and I appreciate it. However, I am confused because the internet gun community is filled with glowing reviews of this scope. I'd say they run about 90% 4 or 5 star but the other 10% are 1*. Looks to me like a spotty quality control issue. Everyone agrees that the 2nd focal plane reticle is a big problem and for many a show stopper. It pretty much is for me except that the happy owners were ok with the work-around
I may pop for $740 for a Vortex 6-24X56 but that's the upper limit of my pain tolerance.
Viper1
I may pop for $740 for a Vortex 6-24X56 but that's the upper limit of my pain tolerance.
Viper1
A lot of the gun community never shoots their guns, they zero them and shoot a few rounds a year (if that). It's going to take a little longer for it to fail, or know it has already failed if you rarely shoot. Chinese scopes do not hold up, plain and simple. Whether its $50 or $500 they are made as fast as possible and as cheap as possible to sell for maximum profit. They fail. Also why do you think when you send in a chinese scope for warranty, they just ship you a new one? They're so cheap to produce they aren't worth fixing and most of the time they don't have the ability to fix it anyway. Hence why you never see any refurbished models offered.
They're bottom of the barrel show off to your friends, mall ninja crap. If you plan on actually shooting your rifle, especially a 338, you need at least a mediocre scope and the Millet is not that.
The next problem you will run into when it does fail and you realize how crappy it is will be the low resale value. If Millet sends you a brand new one sealed in the box you would probably be doing good to get 50% of your money back. That SS that costs less will net you a 80-90% return on your money.
They're bottom of the barrel show off to your friends, mall ninja crap. If you plan on actually shooting your rifle, especially a 338, you need at least a mediocre scope and the Millet is not that.
The next problem you will run into when it does fail and you realize how crappy it is will be the low resale value. If Millet sends you a brand new one sealed in the box you would probably be doing good to get 50% of your money back. That SS that costs less will net you a 80-90% return on your money.
So much ignorance in both of these posts.
First, there is nothing wrong with 2fp. Snipers have been using them since variable power scopes came to existance. All of the greatest snipers alive grew up and were running these in combat. FFP has advantages and disadvatages, but most would agree that having the reticle match the turrets at any power is too good to pass up. There are situations where FFP is not needed or is a detration.
Second, Chineese are perfectly capable of making hi end products. It depends on the specs the cost and the factory. Most of your Rah Rah made in the USA shit, is assembled from componets made abroad, to include china.
The reason those few scopes are recomended, is they are the cheapest you can go and still get reliability and matching turrets/reticle. They dont have great features, small tube, not the greatest glass.........but they work. If everyone here wasnt such fucking snobs or had no reference to go off of, they would have no problem using them. I will take a well functioning/tracking scope with decent glass over a poor tracking, feature laden scope with great glass.
Someone needs to lay down the pipe. When did I ever mention anything about US made scopes? Never, fact is the only optic I recommended here is a Japanese SWFA SS.
I've owned quite a bit of Chinese optics including three from Millet. They are garbage, plain an simple. The Chinese may be capable but they don't make good optics. I also own optics from $300 weavers, SWFA's, and bushnells to $2000 plus scopes. That hardly makes me an optics snob, I simply know that you get what you pay for.
I've owned quite a bit of Chinese optics including three from Millet. They are garbage, plain an simple. The Chinese may be capable but they don't make good optics. I also own optics from $300 weavers, SWFA's, and bushnells to $2000 plus scopes. That hardly makes me an optics snob, I simply know that you get what you pay for.
excellent !
good advice.......buy used...............
Well Cobracutter old thing, here is some more ignorance from this side. I am a scientist by nature and training so I tend to approach any endeavor as if I were setting up an experiment. I have done this ever since I Op'ed this thread. I have used a lot of data and of course some, but far from all, of those data were from comments on this board. Although some loved to say I wasn't listening, I was and have made adjustments in both my expectations and my requirements accordingly.
I ordered a Millett 6-25X56 and after looking it over, I'm keeping it, at least for now. I have also ordered a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP with EBR-1 MRAD and plan to use it on my 338 Lapua. The Millett will be resigned to the 300WM or the 243. I also have a Leupold M4 4.5-16X50 FFP that could fill either position and will be held in reserve should the Millett shit itself. If it does, I will get the replacement and put it on the 243 or a hunting rifle. It was cheap enough to do that.
So, in my own ignorant way, Cobra old boy, I'm muddling through as I have lo these 66 years of my addled existence. I shoot a bit, sometimes less than I would wish due to the dearth of suitable ranges but I shoot enough that I spend a lot of time at the loading bench. A buddy of mine and I have worked out a scheme for a 1,400 yd range by shooting from his farm, across another fellows farm who was kind enough to offer his ok and onto a third farm who happens to be owned by a fellow gun crank who just wants to be allowed to come over and shoot at our steel on his back forty. That's a no-brainer n'est-ce pas?
So that's where we are as of now. I know intellectually that the Millett will probably fail in some way but what a shame. It is a lovely thing with amazing width of field and light attraction. The illumination on the reticle is subtle at lower settings and not glaring at 10. It will be a bloody shame if it is a sheep in wolf's clothing.
Best,
Viper1
I ordered a Millett 6-25X56 and after looking it over, I'm keeping it, at least for now. I have also ordered a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP with EBR-1 MRAD and plan to use it on my 338 Lapua. The Millett will be resigned to the 300WM or the 243. I also have a Leupold M4 4.5-16X50 FFP that could fill either position and will be held in reserve should the Millett shit itself. If it does, I will get the replacement and put it on the 243 or a hunting rifle. It was cheap enough to do that.
So, in my own ignorant way, Cobra old boy, I'm muddling through as I have lo these 66 years of my addled existence. I shoot a bit, sometimes less than I would wish due to the dearth of suitable ranges but I shoot enough that I spend a lot of time at the loading bench. A buddy of mine and I have worked out a scheme for a 1,400 yd range by shooting from his farm, across another fellows farm who was kind enough to offer his ok and onto a third farm who happens to be owned by a fellow gun crank who just wants to be allowed to come over and shoot at our steel on his back forty. That's a no-brainer n'est-ce pas?
So that's where we are as of now. I know intellectually that the Millett will probably fail in some way but what a shame. It is a lovely thing with amazing width of field and light attraction. The illumination on the reticle is subtle at lower settings and not glaring at 10. It will be a bloody shame if it is a sheep in wolf's clothing.
Best,
Viper1
LOL! The hooker in that Chris Rock video reminds me of 'tactical' scope vendors. You want FFP and matching clicks&reticle? We've set a minimum price, and nobody will sell you that for any less. Sometimes we'll give you even less for more money, but never will we give you anything for less than our new minimum. 
OP, I hope you're happy with what you've chosen. There are in fact many durable scopes out there, IME. It's just that none of them are FFP for less than the tactical-minimum-price.
OP, I hope you're happy with what you've chosen. There are in fact many durable scopes out there, IME. It's just that none of them are FFP for less than the tactical-minimum-price.
In doing this experiment there have been several facts drop out of the data. One is that, perhaps too obviously, if you want information on shooting, you go to the operators who are shooting, under various and often difficult circumstances, and try to weed out the input from once a month plinkers. This I have attempted to do and that has meant that this forum is the best source for opinions from qualified shooters. I've therefore blown the ever-lovin' shit out of my retirement budget and gone with better glass, no not as good as yours, but better than the sub $500 stuff.
Thanks to all who have made candid suggestions, I have been listening, so the final scope inventory for on-the-gun testing (which, of course, means they are mine, no return) are as follows:
Ok, that's the good the bad and the silly. Make of it what you will but you must admit it will make for a fun review and I promise pictures of the pieces.
Best,
Viper1
Thanks to all who have made candid suggestions, I have been listening, so the final scope inventory for on-the-gun testing (which, of course, means they are mine, no return) are as follows:
- Leupold M4 4.5-14X50 FFP Mil Dot on Burris 2-screw rings
- Primary Arms 4-14X44 FFP Tactical on Millett 3 screw rings
- Hammers 8-32X56 2ndFP Illum. in-scope bubble level - Cheap, had to see it, will probably wind up on a 22 or my Gamo pellet gun
- Millett 6.5-25X56 2nd FP, Illum. 35mm tubes on Millett 3-screw rings - 'Nuf Said
- Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP Riflescope with EBR-1 MRAD PST-624F1-M
Ok, that's the good the bad and the silly. Make of it what you will but you must admit it will make for a fun review and I promise pictures of the pieces.
Best,
Viper1
Hey All,
Experiment over. Results Although the Millett stayed together on the 338 Lapua I did not like it. Although the eye relief is long enough, the relief range where a full image is achieved is very narrow. Hard to keep a good picture with any gun movement at all. So it's relegated to varmint shooting. The Hammers didn't even make it on to a gun for testing. Looks, feels cheap. Going on a Ruger 10/22.
The three winners are:
• The Leupold M4 4.5-14X50 FFP Mil Dot on Burris 2-screw rings which lives on the Rem 700 M40A1 (replicated) in 300WM
• The Primary Arms 4-14X44 FFP Tactical on Millett 3 screw rings mounted permanently on the Rem Varmint 700 .243
• The Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP Riflescope with EBR-1 MRAD PST-624F1-M which performs perfectly on the Rem 700 M40A3 (replicated) in 338 Lapua Mag
All three of these scopes perform perfectly and all have 200+ rounds under their belts with no burps or failures. I like the Vortex. My range is only 1,200M so in Northern KY I may be limited to that. I'll probably have to go out West to get further. Very accurate at 1,200 though. I've actually rung that bell three, count em', three times out of ... oh, never mind.
Funny story about this range. My buddy has a 800M range on his farm but great relations with all his neighbors. So, we had the steel target set up on one friendly farmer's field but to get there we had to shoot across two other farmer's property. The target was on the third farm over! We originally thought it was 1,400M but the GPS said 1,232. Now, that's neighborly old Kentucky, boys.
Best,
Viper1
Experiment over. Results Although the Millett stayed together on the 338 Lapua I did not like it. Although the eye relief is long enough, the relief range where a full image is achieved is very narrow. Hard to keep a good picture with any gun movement at all. So it's relegated to varmint shooting. The Hammers didn't even make it on to a gun for testing. Looks, feels cheap. Going on a Ruger 10/22.
The three winners are:
• The Leupold M4 4.5-14X50 FFP Mil Dot on Burris 2-screw rings which lives on the Rem 700 M40A1 (replicated) in 300WM
• The Primary Arms 4-14X44 FFP Tactical on Millett 3 screw rings mounted permanently on the Rem Varmint 700 .243
• The Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP Riflescope with EBR-1 MRAD PST-624F1-M which performs perfectly on the Rem 700 M40A3 (replicated) in 338 Lapua Mag
All three of these scopes perform perfectly and all have 200+ rounds under their belts with no burps or failures. I like the Vortex. My range is only 1,200M so in Northern KY I may be limited to that. I'll probably have to go out West to get further. Very accurate at 1,200 though. I've actually rung that bell three, count em', three times out of ... oh, never mind.
Funny story about this range. My buddy has a 800M range on his farm but great relations with all his neighbors. So, we had the steel target set up on one friendly farmer's field but to get there we had to shoot across two other farmer's property. The target was on the third farm over! We originally thought it was 1,400M but the GPS said 1,232. Now, that's neighborly old Kentucky, boys.
Best,
Viper1
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Beware of the Viper PST on a .338 (assuming it has a brake), or other braked magnum. I'm not saying you will have a problem with it, but quite a few of us have on braked magnums. If you start having trouble with it holding zero (and especially if you also start seeing small flakes of debris on the reticle), suspect it. A lot of people have had fine service from theirs, but a surprising number have not. Customer service is outstanding and you will not have a problem there if the scope develops a problem, but it can cost you a lot of time and money in load development if you're chasing a "load" problem that is really a scope that is coming apart internally. Been there...
I had a buddy who mounted a Barska on a .270 and took that rifle with him to Wyoming on an Antelope hunt (13 hr drive from Minnesota). As he was shooting at his antelope his scope came apart, the lenses fell out of the scope. He was not able to fill his tag, because that was the last day we were there. He put about 30 rounds through that rifle/scope combo. So, I will never buy a Barska because I seen it myself when the scope came apart. Oh yeah stay away from Kalinka Optics. I made that mistake when I was younger.
I specked out our 4-14 FFP with up to a .308 in mind and that is what I recommended. That said I know customers and a few guys in the shop using them on 30-06 and 700WM and we will warranty them no matter what you put them on.
Marshall
Marshall
Marsh1, That's very interesting. So far no problems with the 4-14 or either of the two other scopes I'm testing. Frankly I'm surprised at the lack of interest in this thread and the experiment that drives it. We should remember that to a lot of the shooting world $500 for a scope is a lot and on the limits of many hunters and shooter's finances.
For about 40 years I was involved in the world of sport aerobatics eventually becoming President of the International Aerobatic Club, a division of The Experimental Aircraft Association. In competition aerobatics entry level was a $25,000 airplane and it could top out around a half-million. Those that could afford the hot iron had no sympathy for those who could not. What has that got to do with scopes? Nothing except that the attitude of the top-enders here is very similar. There is a tendency to say, "well if you can't afford the $3,000 German scopes then, you're just not going to be competitive and you're just wasting your time." This is, as we say in the world of Theoretical Physics, Bullshit! There's also those who are in it for the fun and challenge of it and my quest is to provide a reliable ( the number one criteria ) scope that they can use to attain the best performance that they can with their equipment.
I have a tendency to get a bit preachy so let me apologize to those who can afford the best and use it. I can afford the best but in this case I chose to try out scopes of lesser pedigree to see if there's a jewel lurking out there amongst the crap. That means that I have to acquire some crap to draw a distinction and that I reckon I have done. The three winners are damned good scopes. One of them fits into the higher priced category since I spent I think $1,525 on my Leopold M-4 but the other two are, thus far, hidden jewels amongst the rubble. The Primary Arms is perhaps the biggest surprise since I knew nothing about them prior to torqueing down the screws. It has a first objective reticle (tech wolves I hope I got that right) , nice glass with a suitably wide eye relief band (something that I have found to be yet another feature to distinguish the better scopes from the not so), which merely means that you have a more forgiving fore/aft position that still yields a full frame. It's light, good looking and I like it. At $230 bucks, it's a friggin' steal folks. The only thing I don't like about it is the high twist loads when increasing or decreasing magnification. You feel like you're unscrewing the tube it's so damned stiff. That may not apply to all of them in service but it damned well does on mine. Perhaps this is the $100 savings over the Viper but it's interesting the both the more expensive scopes have light, smooth magnification dials.
The Vortex Viper at $400 is likewise a bargain and fits smoothly below my requirement of <$500 mounted and shooting. Don't have much to say about it other than it performs as good as the Leupold at 20% the cost. B]20%!![/B]
Now this whole lineup may change after a shooting season or two if one of them shits itself all over my bench but right now I just don't see how you could go too far wrong with either the Primary Arms 4-14 or the Vortex Viper with illuminated reticle. All of the three still on my rifles have first objective reticles, variable ranges out to more mag than I will really need and adjust easily and so far hold 0 like it was their only job. Come to think of it, it sort of is.
Best and as usual, your thoughts please,
Rob - Viper1
For about 40 years I was involved in the world of sport aerobatics eventually becoming President of the International Aerobatic Club, a division of The Experimental Aircraft Association. In competition aerobatics entry level was a $25,000 airplane and it could top out around a half-million. Those that could afford the hot iron had no sympathy for those who could not. What has that got to do with scopes? Nothing except that the attitude of the top-enders here is very similar. There is a tendency to say, "well if you can't afford the $3,000 German scopes then, you're just not going to be competitive and you're just wasting your time." This is, as we say in the world of Theoretical Physics, Bullshit! There's also those who are in it for the fun and challenge of it and my quest is to provide a reliable ( the number one criteria ) scope that they can use to attain the best performance that they can with their equipment.
I have a tendency to get a bit preachy so let me apologize to those who can afford the best and use it. I can afford the best but in this case I chose to try out scopes of lesser pedigree to see if there's a jewel lurking out there amongst the crap. That means that I have to acquire some crap to draw a distinction and that I reckon I have done. The three winners are damned good scopes. One of them fits into the higher priced category since I spent I think $1,525 on my Leopold M-4 but the other two are, thus far, hidden jewels amongst the rubble. The Primary Arms is perhaps the biggest surprise since I knew nothing about them prior to torqueing down the screws. It has a first objective reticle (tech wolves I hope I got that right) , nice glass with a suitably wide eye relief band (something that I have found to be yet another feature to distinguish the better scopes from the not so), which merely means that you have a more forgiving fore/aft position that still yields a full frame. It's light, good looking and I like it. At $230 bucks, it's a friggin' steal folks. The only thing I don't like about it is the high twist loads when increasing or decreasing magnification. You feel like you're unscrewing the tube it's so damned stiff. That may not apply to all of them in service but it damned well does on mine. Perhaps this is the $100 savings over the Viper but it's interesting the both the more expensive scopes have light, smooth magnification dials.
The Vortex Viper at $400 is likewise a bargain and fits smoothly below my requirement of <$500 mounted and shooting. Don't have much to say about it other than it performs as good as the Leupold at 20% the cost. B]20%!![/B]
Now this whole lineup may change after a shooting season or two if one of them shits itself all over my bench but right now I just don't see how you could go too far wrong with either the Primary Arms 4-14 or the Vortex Viper with illuminated reticle. All of the three still on my rifles have first objective reticles, variable ranges out to more mag than I will really need and adjust easily and so far hold 0 like it was their only job. Come to think of it, it sort of is.
Best and as usual, your thoughts please,
Rob - Viper1
Op this is my experience. I bought a scope called Hawke Sidewinder Tactical 30 4-14 which at the time I found for 375.00 plus shipping which came out to about 390.00 Now most places sell them for 450.00 plus shipping. I will say it was a good scope but what really killed it for me was the quality of glass this was looking through it when its really hot out side. I was at about 10x and found it really hard to look at the target with so much merage that I was about to take it off and shoot the damn thing a couple of time. The target I was trying to shoot was out about 300 yards by the way. So after wards I jumped on the SWFA wagon during the group by for the and got me two 5-20 HD models and never looked back. The merage is still there but because of the glass quality I can still see my targets. The Hawke scope was good to use during the winter cooler fall weather and early spring. The minute heat in the 75* was involved and having to shoot at targets shitting on rocks it was over. It would drive me nuts.
I would say look at SWFA or Bushnell for scopes or even at Vortex. One other thing is SWFA and Vortex have super great warranties on their scopes. Hope this helps. I was also on the cheap side with things but saw pretty quickly that when it came to glass you have to fork up that money or you just end up spending more in the long running buying all sorts of gargage scope and they either do not hold up and the ones that do the warranty sucks and if you where to be shooting on a high wind day and your rifles falls down 3ft off a table because your marching downt 300 yards to look at your target and come back the dont see the rifle because its upside down on the ground and when you get there and see what happened your worried it sucks. All of this happend to me personally but there was no need to warranty becuase my SWFA 5-20 works till today and its been on all kind of hunts and dust, rain, snow, heat and its still 100% and backed by great warranty so I have nothing to worry about.
So to end it its pretty simple more you pay the better the glass. Not saying you will not find deffects because we all know that there are plenty errors with human made objects, but higher end will not have an issue every time as low end will.
I would say look at SWFA or Bushnell for scopes or even at Vortex. One other thing is SWFA and Vortex have super great warranties on their scopes. Hope this helps. I was also on the cheap side with things but saw pretty quickly that when it came to glass you have to fork up that money or you just end up spending more in the long running buying all sorts of gargage scope and they either do not hold up and the ones that do the warranty sucks and if you where to be shooting on a high wind day and your rifles falls down 3ft off a table because your marching downt 300 yards to look at your target and come back the dont see the rifle because its upside down on the ground and when you get there and see what happened your worried it sucks. All of this happend to me personally but there was no need to warranty becuase my SWFA 5-20 works till today and its been on all kind of hunts and dust, rain, snow, heat and its still 100% and backed by great warranty so I have nothing to worry about.
So to end it its pretty simple more you pay the better the glass. Not saying you will not find deffects because we all know that there are plenty errors with human made objects, but higher end will not have an issue every time as low end will.
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Cheapest I'd go is the Nikon Prostaff line. Others will disagree.
Boy, Quater Horse is right about that black hole!!
Viper1, I think you would be hard pressed to find a better scope for the money than the SWFA SS line of scopes. For $299 you get a scope built like a tank. The glass is very good, the tracking is right on. They are no nonsense scopes and they firkin work. I have a friend that has one of the first ones that came out, the dam thing looks like it's dragged behind a pickup truck down a dirt road and the dam thing still works tracks just fine. Do you self a favor order one from SWFA and if you don't like it send it back, SWFA are good people and their CS is great......
I agree on the "get what you pay for" part. I've been jumping price ranges for a few years now. I started with a BSA 4-14x40SF and am now running a Leupold MK4 8-25X50 w horus retical I got off internet for just over 1800 used. At 100 yards with the BSA and factory stock I was 1 MOA. With the work I've done on the rifle and w the new scope I'm under 1/2" easy. At range is where the proof is in the details.
I just ordered a SWFA SS 10X this weekend because they are on sale and the MK4 on my 308AR needs to go back on another build I'm working on. With all the recomendations here for the SWFA SS line I figured what the hell. 260.00 was a good price for the intended use of the rifle and the choice of ammo. I don't need a scope capable of one shot hole when using 1 MOA at best ammo.
Good luck and hope you find what your looking for.
I just ordered a SWFA SS 10X this weekend because they are on sale and the MK4 on my 308AR needs to go back on another build I'm working on. With all the recomendations here for the SWFA SS line I figured what the hell. 260.00 was a good price for the intended use of the rifle and the choice of ammo. I don't need a scope capable of one shot hole when using 1 MOA at best ammo.
Good luck and hope you find what your looking for.
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