scratches in new barrel

[Alderan]

hello everyone,
Got a new rifle and found these marks on one of the lands maybe 5 inches in front of the throat and marks continue maybe for half an inch.
Are these tooling marks? Should i be concerned?

 

[supercorndogs]

What kind of rifle? How does it shoot?

 

[Alderan]

Cadex CDX-R7 Sheepdog in 308win. It shoots pretty good. Around 1moa with federal gm 168 smk but it can go to around 0.5 with hand loaded ELDs

I brought a bore scope recently so I discovered these marks. I just want to understand what i am seeing so i can expand my knowledge.

From the look of them they appear to follow the helix with a narrower and faster twist and are on a pretty regular interval. Could this be a chip that rolled and scratched the surface during button rifling process?

 

[supercorndogs]

@Frank Green I am not sure who here would know more about barrels.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Bullets on targets are what matter. Premium barrels tend to have fairly (but not totally) pristine bores. Factory rifles... not so much, and the cheaper the rifle the more "imperfections" are likely to be seen.

I've owned a pair of mid-tier AR rifles made by a small company with a well-earned reputation for high quality - they machine all their own parts and source only the barrel blanks externally. Both rifles held consistent 1MOA 5-shot 100-yard groups with factory or handloaded 69- or 77-grain SMKs. When I put my scope in the barrel of the second one, I was astounded at the chatter marks and gouges up&down the bore - but both rifles were commendably accurate. The company sells (installation included) replacement barrels for under half of what I've been paying for Bartlein blanks. I think I got more accuracy from those rifles than I paid for.

If the rifle gives you 1/2MOA 5-shot groups, just shoot it. You're going through the same thing way too many new borescope owners experience - they worry their rifle is defective if they see some anomaly in the barrel. It isn't.

 

[brianf]

Cadex CDX-R7 Sheepdog in 308win. It shoots pretty good. Around 1moa with federal gm 168 smk but it can go to around 0.5 with hand loaded ELDs

I brought a bore scope recently so I discovered these marks. I just want to understand what i am seeing so i can expand my knowledge.

From the look of them they appear to follow the helix with a narrower and faster twist and are on a pretty regular interval. Could this be a chip that rolled and scratched the surface during button rifling process?

have you called Cadex, before you posted on the hide?

not a barrel expert but if you cant get FGMM to shoot .5...use the barrel as a tomato stake

 

[Alderan]

No, i dont think there is anything wrong with the rifle. Im pretty sure Cadex borescope's their rifles before they ship them.

Like i mentioned, im just interested in understanding what those marks are and potentially how they came to be.

Btw, Cadex customer service is one of the best that I have seen.

 

[brianf]

No, i dont think there is anything wrong with the rifle. Im pretty sure Cadex borescope's their rifles before they ship them.

Like i mentioned, im just interested in understanding what those marks are and potentially how they came to be.

Btw, Cadex customer service is one of the best that I have seen.

all joking aside, if it wont shoot FGMM in .5...something is wrong

especially since you seem to have the capability/ accuracy with handloads.

just food for thought

 

[Haney]

Looks like a chip took a short ride . If it shoots to your liking and does not strip copper it's nothing to worry about . Bore cams are a great tool , for the price of them these days well worth not living in deep dark denial .

 

[FisherT&C]

Those are reamer marks from the barrel manufacturing process. I've seen those in a top of the line barrel and the rifle still hammered.

 

[Krob95]

Well. @Cadex Defence does have a presence here. Maybe they would like to see this?

 

[moosemeat]

1 moa with FGMM? That's pretty crappy in my experience. I would try 175 GMM. It may just like a heavier bullet.

 

[KZP]

Cadex has good customer service in my experience. Send in a warranty ticket on their site, it may take a few days for a reply.

 

[Alderan]

I can second that; Cadex customer service is amazing. My firing pin assembly on the CDX-R7 started deteriorating after too much dry firing; the two pins that hold the firing pin became too brittle and started chipping. I contacted Cadex and they were more then helpful; they paid for the shipping for the bolt, their gun smith took a look at it, they explained to me what happened, they gave me a new firing pin assembly for free and they let me keep the old one so i can just replace the new with the old whenever i want to practice dry firing and never need to worry about the same thing happening again. Like i said, great customer service.

Like i previously mentioned; There is nothing wrong with the rifle, it shoots great. Dont read too much into my 1moa comment (that could be just my silly attempt at falls modesty); around 0.7 to 0.8 is what i would put the average at.

Its just like i previously mentioned; i bought a borescope and took a look inside the berral. Just my personal curiosity and a need to ask ppl more experienced then i am.

Btw, thank you all for your replies.

 

[Elite_KG]

For a precision rifle with a match grade barrel I wouldn’t expect to see chatter or chip scarring in the rifling. I would be concerned every time I saw a flier. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, but that wouldn’t make me happy on a $3800-ish rifle. Glad its performing well for you.

 

[Frank Green]

Cadex CDX-R7 Sheepdog in 308win. It shoots pretty good. Around 1moa with federal gm 168 smk but it can go to around 0.5 with hand loaded ELDs

I brought a bore scope recently so I discovered these marks. I just want to understand what i am seeing so i can expand my knowledge.

From the look of them they appear to follow the helix with a narrower and faster twist and are on a pretty regular interval. Could this be a chip that rolled and scratched the surface during button rifling process?

As been said...did you call Cadex? That should be your first stop.

Most of Cadex barrels are ours. Not a 100% but most. I'm not sure what barrels they are using on the sheep rifles and or when it was made. Could be ours and could not be ours.

Also we don't do button rifling!

Random questions for you.....

Are the marks only on top of one land like your picture shows?

How are you cleaning it?

Was the barrel like that when you first pulled the rifle out of the box?

More questions for you but lets start there.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

1 moa with FGMM? That's pretty crappy in my experience. I would try 175 GMM. It may just like a heavier bullet.

Box ammo is box ammo. Even box match ammo. I will call a .75ish moa box ammo very good ammo. If you get box ammo that shoots better than that....that's excellent box ammo.

I'm not picking on any ammo maker etc....but you can have one lot of ammo shoot 1moa and another lot shoot sub .5moa thru the same gun.

Also what you and I don't always know...is what chamber reamer spec. was used to cut the chambers? There is good and there is not so good. Don't forget the gunsmithing work is a key factor as well.

 

[Frank Green]

Those are reamer marks from the barrel manufacturing process. I've seen those in a top of the line barrel and the rifle still hammered.

I'll say those are not bore reamer marks. If they are bore reamer marks they would go directly across the tops of the lands and it would look like railroad tracks is how I describe it. It would look like the attached picture....

Those marks are not the same as bore reamer marks as well as it looks like it is following the twist of the rifling. So something else is going on.

The attached picture below is of a button rifled barrel....you can see how the button rifling just swages the bore reamer marks down into the grooves as well. The rougher the bore reamer marks the more pronounced it will be. Sometimes the bore reamer marks will kind of get ironed out down in the grooves but still show prominently on tops of the lands.

 

[Alderan]

As been said...did you call Cadex? That should be your first stop.

Most of Cadex barrels are ours. Not a 100% but most. I'm not sure what barrels they are using on the sheep rifles and or when it was made. Could be ours and could not be ours.

Also we don't do button rifling!

Random questions for you.....

Are the marks only on top of one land like your picture shows?

How are you cleaning it?

Was the barrel like that when you first pulled the rifle out of the box?

More questions for you but lets start there.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Im almost 100% sure this is not a Bartlein barrel. I think the rifle is from 2019 or 2020 and that is the year when Cadex started making their own barrels.
And yes, its a button rifling, i remember seeing it during the research when i was deciding what rifle to buy. Btw, when this rifle stops shooting good, i will be looking at getting one of your barrels.

The marks are in only one place and only on top of the lands. No idea if the marks were there when the rifle was new, i only bought the bore scope recently and the rifle has probably close to 1k rounds through it at this point in time.

My cleaning regiment is pretty normal; boreguide, dewies rod, bronze brush and hoppes 9 (every 200 rounds or so shooter's choice cooper remover). Only patches and bronze or brass materials are going down my barrels; Not the first rifle i cleaned over the years but anything is possible

I will definitely give Cadex a shout and see what they think.

 

[FisherT&C]

I'll say those are not bore reamer marks. If they are bore reamer marks they would go directly across the tops of the lands and it would look like railroad tracks is how I describe it. It would look like the attached picture....

Those marks are not the same as bore reamer marks as well as it looks like it is following the twist of the rifling. So something else is going on.

The attached picture below is of a button rifled barrel....you can see how the button rifling just swages the bore reamer marks down into the grooves as well. The rougher the bore reamer marks the more pronounced it will be. Sometimes the bore reamer marks will kind of get ironed out down in the grooves but still show prominently on tops of the lands.

Does the lap go with the twist? If it does, could the tool marks appear to go with the twist if there only on the top of the lands? They look very evenly spaced; which leads me to a cause by tooling.

These tool marks were in a cut rifled lapped barrel I did awhile back. The tool marks were also only on the top of the lands; so they also followed the twist.

 

[kthomas]

Im almost 100% sure this is not a Bartlein barrel. I think the rifle is from 2019 or 2020 and that is the year when Cadex started making their own barrels.
And yes, its a button rifling, i remember seeing it during the research when i was deciding what rifle to buy. Btw, when this rifle stops shooting good, i will be looking at getting one of your barrels.

The marks are in only one place and only on top of the lands. No idea if the marks were there when the rifle was new, i only bought the bore scope recently and the rifle has probably close to 1k rounds through it at this point in time.

My cleaning regiment is pretty normal; boreguide, dewies rod, bronze brush and hoppes 9 (every 200 rounds or so shooter's choice cooper remover). Only patches and bronze or brass materials are going down my barrels; Not the first rifle i cleaned over the years but anything is possible

I will definitely give Cadex a shout and see what they think.

Cadex makes their own barrels?

 

[Frank Green]

Does the lap go with the twist? If it does, could the tool marks appear to go with the twist if there only on the top of the lands? They look very evenly spaced; which leads me to a cause by tooling.

View attachment 7892303

These tool marks were in a cut rifled lapped barrel I did awhile back. The tool marks were also only on the top of the lands; so they also followed the twist.

What you have in the picture are bore reamer marks.

In cut rifling....the cutter actually cuts the grooves. So if the bore reamer during the reaming operation left the bore finish rough and the barrel maker didn't prelap or if you will some call it honing don't do this operation then the marks are left on tops of the lands (which is called the bore) and during rifling the cutter cuts the grooves and hence forth you don't see any down in the grooves.

Bore reaming will cut opposite direction of bullet travel.

Button rifling if the bore reamer left heave marks the button rifling process displaces the metal. It doesn't remove the metal when forming the grooves. So if the bore ream finish is really rough the marks also get displaced down into the groove as well.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Frank Green]

Does the lap go with the twist?

Yes. When you cast a lap to finish lap a barrel...the twist is now built into the lap. So when you put lapping compound on it and finish lap the barrel it spins with the twist of the rifling.

This is assuming you have a nice finish lapping rod! We custom make all of or own finish lapping rods and handles with custom bearings on each end of the handle and the handles are oversize compared to a cleaning rod handle.

If the bore reamer marks are not heavy and you know what your doing you should be able to finish lap them out.

This goes back to why after bore reaming we prelap the barrels. This will remove 90 to 100% of bore reamer marks. Finish lapping is meant as a final polish if you will.

I've seen both cut, button, hammer forged barrels etc...where the bore finish was so bad....finish lapping them wasn't going to remove the bore reamer marks etc....

That's why it's important to pay attention to not just the size the bore reamer is giving you but the finish as well. The nicer the ream finish the easier it will be to prelap/finish lap it.

Believe it or not. Some barrel makers especially production made barrels they won't even bore ream after the gun drilling. After gun drilling the blank it just goes straight to rifling. Talk about a shitty finish after gun drilling compared to bore reaming. The old saying comes up...."you get what you pay for!"

 

[Alderan]

I completely cleaned the barrel, carbon and copper, and i went to the range yesterday.

100 yards, 60 rounds of FGM 168 SMK and 20 rounds of FGM 175 SMK.

Wind started picking up a bit towards the end but nothing major.

The first group was fouling shots, as you can see, but after that things went pretty good. The last 2 groups of 168 started opening a bit but that could be me getting tired, the wind, the ammo or god knows what. From the looks of it, my rifle likes 168 better then 175 but the sample size is to small to draw a conclusion yet.

Starts at #53 and goes all the way up. The ones that dont have # are the 175 SMKs.

So, the rifle can shoot....... Right?

 

[Nebulous]

Really glad your rifle is a shooter. From what little I have learned about chambering, those marks look like they came from the pilot on a piloted reamer, either a chip or a nick made light contact. I wouldn't be surprised if it shot out relatively quick.

 

[MDof2]

Put the borescope back on the shelf. It's a solution looking for a problem.

Believe the target.

 

[b6graham]

Really glad your rifle is a shooter. From what little I have learned about chambering, those marks look like they came from the pilot on a piloted reamer, either a chip or a nick made light contact. I wouldn't be surprised if it shot out relatively quick.

Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels already said what it was...

 

[Nebulous]

My bad I guess my reading comprehension is lacking today

 

[FisherT&C]

Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels already said what it was...

What did he say it was? My reading comprehension is bad also.

 

[Baron23]

What did he say it was? My reading comprehension is bad also.

What you have in the picture are bore reamer marks.

 

[FisherT&C]

I was trying to ask a question referring to the pics from Alderan and using my picture as a reference. I thought the ops pictures showed bore reamer marks, I was told I was wrong and no further explanation was provided. I wasn't trying to derail the conversation, I believe my question was taken out of context. I know my picture has reamer marks. I was trying to understand what caused the marks in the ops pictures.
No explanation has yet to be provided.

 

[Alderan]

Im a silly silly person; when i was measuring how far down the marks were i included the muzzle break in my calculations. The marks are about 2" in front of the throat area where lands and groves start. So, the idea of the chambering reamer guide might not be out of the realm of possibility.

I still did not email Cadex but I will tomorrow, i will let you know what they say. Im just happy the rifle shoots well

 

[Stevo86]

Shoot that MFER. Nothing wrong with it

 

[Baron23]

I was trying to ask a question referring to the pics from Alderan and using my picture as a reference. I thought the ops pictures showed bore reamer marks, I was told I was wrong and no further explanation was provided. I wasn't trying to derail the conversation, I believe my question was taken out of context. I know my picture has reamer marks. I was trying to understand what caused the marks in the ops pictures.
No explanation has yet to be provided.

Ah, so sorry....didn't notice that Frank was responding to YOUR pic and not the OPs.

Hey, I'm going to be 70 soon and I'm already a drooling idiot....you need to have some sympathy

 

[Huskydriver]

Ah, so sorry....didn't notice that Frank was responding to YOUR pic and not the OPs.

Hey, I'm going to be 70 soon and I'm already a drooling idiot....you need to have some sympathy

 

[Baron23]

View attachment 7893386

hahaha....I said drooling...not falling down....well, not yet! haha

 

[Frank Green]

hahaha....I said drooling...not falling down....well, not yet! haha

Not poking at ya....it was funny and made me laugh! Both the drooling comment and not falling down comment!

Later, Frank