Seekins SP10 barrel question
- Thread starter oniak
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Sir if your scar is at 5000 plus rounds and still sub moa then you have the greatest large frame 6.5 creedmoor gasser in history. Slow bench rest shooting, you do understand the SP10M won the Delta contract years ago not to mention that the seekins is the most prevalent large frame gasser at sniper style field matches? No major manufacturer is going to outright tell you who's barrel blanks they are using, but I wont say that information doesnt sometimes get out. The SCAR is not what I'd consider a very accurate weapon but everyone's standard for accuracy is different. Im not sure why you think the scar handles heat better, but ok. Seems as if you've made up your mind and thats fine no one is telling you to buy a sp10 but your opinion is wildly skewed, but you do you.
Those barrels may be chrome lines or nitrided or even some type of alloy. Considering you can pick up an SP10 between $2200-2500 and have a factory gun, with great customer support, that shoots 1/2-3/4 MOA as a large frame, I don't know what your issue is. You are paying almost double that for a Geissele and people have said that there is 0.5mil of shift when doing positional shooting.
Have fun using a SCAR and shooting with a clip on before you cook it. And FN won't warranty their guns if anyone uses a suppressor.
If you want a battle rifle, Seekins isn't what you are looking for anyways. Maybe pick one up and run it for 3000 rounds before jumping in to criticize it.
I think this is this dude's fourth rant about Seekins set screw gas blocks. His username certainly checks out.
@MrACOG pinning a gas block on a blaster AR that has no accuracy requirement is acceptable. Maybe even preferred for robustness. Pinning a gas block on a cut rifled barrel with an accuracy requirement is a bad idea due to potential detriments to accuracy. There's other ways to secure a gas block than pinning. I had my custom barrel cut with a very slight interference fit between the journal and gas block. Then I smeared red loctite on the journal and in the gas block. That gas block will have to be heated up and pounded off that barrel. In reality, that gas block cost about $35 and it will just go with the barrel when a replacement barrel is installed. Check out the Ridgeline LPR-15 for an alternative gas block fixture that is designed for all out accuracy. Theirs is keyed into the barrel and held with a jam nut. A really expensive solution designed for a precision platform. And you're going to pay for it if you want it.
Barrels. A lot of people over-hype barrels, but regardless, if you want a true precision rifle, you want a cut rifled stainless barrel. Geisselle seems to be making headway with accurate chrome lined barrels but I think the jury is still out on widespread, baseline precision performance. I would also say there's a lot of OEM barrel manufacturers that make barrels that just as accurate, especially in a flawed large frame gas gun platform, as high end boutique barrel manufacturers. And all the barrel manufacturers can make a dud. The only thing we have as consumers to go off is reputation, aka larger scale somewhat-anedoctal sample size. And Seekins has a reputation for very accurate OEM barrels. So at this point the name of the actual OEM manufacturer doesn't really matter. It's a cut rifled stainless barrel that has a reputation for large scale performance from a variety of customers. From Delta, to Hat Creek, to the serious PRS gas gun competitor. Who are you?
At some point, I was in the same market as you. And I didn't want a lighter contour OEM barrel. And I wanted a specific chamber. Seekins doesn't offer every customer a slew of custom options. It would not be a production gun if they did, so I just had my own barrel made to my specs, in a Seekins platform. I didn't go around bad mouthing Seekins because they didn't offer what I wanted. This is how high-end expectations work and why so many custom builders exist. There are very few production guns I want to spend my money on, especially precision oriented rifles. So I do everything custom. Doesn't have to be a homosexual panic or significant emotional event.
6.5CM barrel life. It's just a known fact that precision oriented barrels have shorter life. It's just what it is. I would also say that barrel life estimates are just that. It's so subjective. If a manufacturer tells you that the 6.5CM rifle they sold you had a 3500rd barrel life and you attempted to hold them to that, you're an idiot. It's like mpg with your car. Unless it's way out of alignment, all those estimates are best case, optimistic ball parks and the way you drive and shoot has so much to do with it that there's no way to hold a manufacturers to their estimate. Plan for 2000-3000. Outside of some super special barrel material all barrels will be similar within their material category, ie SS vs chrome lined vs, etc. And to be honest,.most of the time we consumers have seen some manufacturer come out with some proprietary new hotness, the overwhelming majority of the time, the claims never meet reality. The best chance of success is buying a cut rifled blank from a reputable company, having a talented Smith custom cut it for your no-flex chassis/ receiver, shoot it for the industrial standard number of rounds, and then replace it as a wear item. Or buy a chrome lined barrel and accept a lower standard of precision and accuracy.
If you don't like Seekins, then just go elsewhere. Why continue to hound in them? Do you do this with girlfriends? If you did it would be restraining order territory. Why not just look at LMT MWS? Solid chassis, chrome lined barrels. Why continue to lament that a company doesn't offer what you want? Just move on.
@MrACOG pinning a gas block on a blaster AR that has no accuracy requirement is acceptable. Maybe even preferred for robustness. Pinning a gas block on a cut rifled barrel with an accuracy requirement is a bad idea due to potential detriments to accuracy. There's other ways to secure a gas block than pinning. I had my custom barrel cut with a very slight interference fit between the journal and gas block. Then I smeared red loctite on the journal and in the gas block. That gas block will have to be heated up and pounded off that barrel. In reality, that gas block cost about $35 and it will just go with the barrel when a replacement barrel is installed. Check out the Ridgeline LPR-15 for an alternative gas block fixture that is designed for all out accuracy. Theirs is keyed into the barrel and held with a jam nut. A really expensive solution designed for a precision platform. And you're going to pay for it if you want it.
Barrels. A lot of people over-hype barrels, but regardless, if you want a true precision rifle, you want a cut rifled stainless barrel. Geisselle seems to be making headway with accurate chrome lined barrels but I think the jury is still out on widespread, baseline precision performance. I would also say there's a lot of OEM barrel manufacturers that make barrels that just as accurate, especially in a flawed large frame gas gun platform, as high end boutique barrel manufacturers. And all the barrel manufacturers can make a dud. The only thing we have as consumers to go off is reputation, aka larger scale somewhat-anedoctal sample size. And Seekins has a reputation for very accurate OEM barrels. So at this point the name of the actual OEM manufacturer doesn't really matter. It's a cut rifled stainless barrel that has a reputation for large scale performance from a variety of customers. From Delta, to Hat Creek, to the serious PRS gas gun competitor. Who are you?
At some point, I was in the same market as you. And I didn't want a lighter contour OEM barrel. And I wanted a specific chamber. Seekins doesn't offer every customer a slew of custom options. It would not be a production gun if they did, so I just had my own barrel made to my specs, in a Seekins platform. I didn't go around bad mouthing Seekins because they didn't offer what I wanted. This is how high-end expectations work and why so many custom builders exist. There are very few production guns I want to spend my money on, especially precision oriented rifles. So I do everything custom. Doesn't have to be a homosexual panic or significant emotional event.
6.5CM barrel life. It's just a known fact that precision oriented barrels have shorter life. It's just what it is. I would also say that barrel life estimates are just that. It's so subjective. If a manufacturer tells you that the 6.5CM rifle they sold you had a 3500rd barrel life and you attempted to hold them to that, you're an idiot. It's like mpg with your car. Unless it's way out of alignment, all those estimates are best case, optimistic ball parks and the way you drive and shoot has so much to do with it that there's no way to hold a manufacturers to their estimate. Plan for 2000-3000. Outside of some super special barrel material all barrels will be similar within their material category, ie SS vs chrome lined vs, etc. And to be honest,.most of the time we consumers have seen some manufacturer come out with some proprietary new hotness, the overwhelming majority of the time, the claims never meet reality. The best chance of success is buying a cut rifled blank from a reputable company, having a talented Smith custom cut it for your no-flex chassis/ receiver, shoot it for the industrial standard number of rounds, and then replace it as a wear item. Or buy a chrome lined barrel and accept a lower standard of precision and accuracy.
If you don't like Seekins, then just go elsewhere. Why continue to hound in them? Do you do this with girlfriends? If you did it would be restraining order territory. Why not just look at LMT MWS? Solid chassis, chrome lined barrels. Why continue to lament that a company doesn't offer what you want? Just move on.
My DD 5.56 uppers and rifles are only pinned, there is no set screw, even though there is an unthreaded hole at the bottom of the gas block.
For a hard use "bomb-proof" 5.56 AR barrel that doesn't require top-tier precision, pinning the gas block makes sense. I have numerous of both setups.
However, drilling and pinning the GB absolutely can and often does negatively impact precision. Everything is a tradeoff, but the most accurate AR rifles I own are not drilled and pinned, they are also cut-rifled 416R stainless steel. They use dimpled set-screws with serrated screws and Roksett. The GB's are also protected under the rail, they are not coming loose unintentionally.
Many shooters can't shoot the difference between a 416R premium SS barrel and a drilled and pinned chrome-lined CHF barrel. Some of use can. There is good reason that both are offered. Different tools for different jobs.
Pinning gas blocks do NOT reduce accuracy. This is unfounded and made up by manufacturers that want to cut corners.
On another note, I never knocked Seekins. My quest is and was for knowledge. I also believe and suspect Seekins uses billet uppers and lowers. Another corner cutting technique. IF this turns out to be true, then all you have is an overpriced, billet upper/lower, set screw attached gas block with a mystery stainless barrel, for 4200.00.
There is non, none, nada comparison to a Geissele MRGG, or even a DD5 V5. Of which I have confirmed with DD, are ALL pinned. The DD5 V5 is .75 to .5 moa all day long as is the Geissele.
Though off topic, even Seekins DMR 6 arc platform has the same deficiencies. And here again, cannot compare to a GFR.
Everything Seekins manufacturers is not even at a CMMG level. Sorry guys but now have to call it as it is. And this Scar bashing is ridiculous. I already own 2 Scar 20's, 6.5 and 308. My mission was to obtain a 6.5 in ar10 platform and sure won't be a Seekins.
On another note, I never knocked Seekins. My quest is and was for knowledge. I also believe and suspect Seekins uses billet uppers and lowers. Another corner cutting technique. IF this turns out to be true, then all you have is an overpriced, billet upper/lower, set screw attached gas block with a mystery stainless barrel, for 4200.00.
There is non, none, nada comparison to a Geissele MRGG, or even a DD5 V5. Of which I have confirmed with DD, are ALL pinned. The DD5 V5 is .75 to .5 moa all day long as is the Geissele.
Though off topic, even Seekins DMR 6 arc platform has the same deficiencies. And here again, cannot compare to a GFR.
Everything Seekins manufacturers is not even at a CMMG level. Sorry guys but now have to call it as it is. And this Scar bashing is ridiculous. I already own 2 Scar 20's, 6.5 and 308. My mission was to obtain a 6.5 in ar10 platform and sure won't be a Seekins.
I'll not argue pinning vs not pinning a gas block unless someone produces a study on the subject.
A seekins sp10 is 25-2700 new, im not sure where you got 4200 from, but it's kind of ridiculous.
I know who makes their barrel blanks so its not much of a mystery to me. But im not going to tell you because it was told to me by their director of operations.
nothing daniel defense makes shoots a 5 or 10 shot group thats .5 - .75" at 100y. Shoot 5 groups and prove me wrong. Show all 5 dont cherry pick. The geissele shoots well but also isn't worth the 6k msrp that they're asking. It averaged about .75" when I shot it. The geissele also has the largest POI shift in the industry.
I can show all kinds of groups with a seekins because I own a few. Im not hyping it up because im paid or anything. Seekins has been good to me and a lot of my friends. If there was ever an issue it was taken care of quickly and without question. I can't say the same for a lot of other companies and im friends with the DD boys as they aren't too far from the house and I see them at a lot of matches.
A seekins sp10 is 25-2700 new, im not sure where you got 4200 from, but it's kind of ridiculous.
I know who makes their barrel blanks so its not much of a mystery to me. But im not going to tell you because it was told to me by their director of operations.
nothing daniel defense makes shoots a 5 or 10 shot group thats .5 - .75" at 100y. Shoot 5 groups and prove me wrong. Show all 5 dont cherry pick. The geissele shoots well but also isn't worth the 6k msrp that they're asking. It averaged about .75" when I shot it. The geissele also has the largest POI shift in the industry. I can show all kinds of groups with a seekins because I own a few. Im not hyping it up because im paid or anything. Seekins has been good to me and a lot of my friends. If there was ever an issue it was taken care of quickly and without question. I can't say the same for a lot of other companies and im friends with the DD boys as they aren't too far from the house and I see them at a lot of matches.
Ok, so is the argument for a Seekins affordability? Well it's still overpriced at 2800 for SP10 and way over for SP10M at 4200. Yes, the SP10M, the one that they supposedly hand pick parts from the same SP10 parts cart, assemble it right next to the SP10 bench but then fire it 60 times for accuracy ?.
1 wonder if they are using your 10 shot group standard ? And 10 shot groups? .5 moa out of SP10? Ok sure. The Seekins barrels don't heat up either being stainless, that's right.
At the end of the day your alleged accuracy is short lived. Will start to open at 1500 to 2000 rds. My God, Seekins couldn't even give you a Lothar barrel.
Budget definitely matters to me also but not at the sacrifice of quality and durability. That would be the day when I drop 4200 on a Billet ar rifle.
1 wonder if they are using your 10 shot group standard ? And 10 shot groups? .5 moa out of SP10? Ok sure. The Seekins barrels don't heat up either being stainless, that's right.
At the end of the day your alleged accuracy is short lived. Will start to open at 1500 to 2000 rds. My God, Seekins couldn't even give you a Lothar barrel.
Budget definitely matters to me also but not at the sacrifice of quality and durability. That would be the day when I drop 4200 on a Billet ar rifle.
They do in fact do a 10 shot accuracy test. There is a video of seekins shooting groups for accuracy on their own range and they show you group. You dont want to pay 2800, then dont. Again no one is forcing you to do anything. The bottom line is they perform and everyone gets about the same barrel life from a creedmoor. Again show everyone in here some amazing DD accuracy or hell any large frame gasser that is at either price point 2500 or 4200 that is out performing a seekins. Until you can all you have is words and no proof where as half this group can produce groups from their guns.
I think you're stuck in a self induced and deluded loop.
You've heard my theory on large frame precision guns. Here's how my Seekins shoots.
Prove us otherwise. Time to move on from "expertise by reading website specs" and buy a DD and show all of us rubes what real large frame gas gun accuracy looks like.
You've heard my theory on large frame precision guns. Here's how my Seekins shoots.
Prove us otherwise. Time to move on from "expertise by reading website specs" and buy a DD and show all of us rubes what real large frame gas gun accuracy looks like.
ACOG is a fucking retard troll. Not sure what anyone is justifying anything.
Pinning the gas block often does reduce precision. I have personally found this to be true with two different Criterion barrels.
Criterion themselves acknowledge that drilling and pinning the barrel can reduce precision. They don't have a dog in the fight, they make barrels, you can pin them if you want, or not. They are just sharing their large sample size testing.
A Daniel Defense DD5 is not a sub-moa rifle. If the stars line up and you get a three round or 5 round group that happens to be under an inch at 100 yards, it is not consistently repeatable over large sample sizes.
If you don't want to buy a Seekins rifle, don't. However, the SP10 M is a solid shooter for sure, perhaps one of the most accurate off the shelf AR-10s available.
I guess you can misreaad everyone that way. What I see is a lot of positives on reliability, accuracy and precision, and great customer service that wants to make you happy.
You're the only one that can put money-value on those qualities, and assign whatever value you think they aree worth, in what you want to buy.
Do you think sailing this tack is going to make happy Seekins customers/owners/dealers "rethink" ? Or do you just like being argumentative?
