Night Vision Sell NV to fund thermal?

[Evolution 9]

Hey guys, need opinions from folks who have used both.


I have a Night Optics D790 (fixed 6X magnification). I love it. It does what I need which is shooting coyotes from 100 - 500 yards (most around 200).

I’ve decided to buy a 60mm IR Hunter because it sounds like I’ll bag more dogs.

Dilemma:

I’m not rich. These are huge purchases which require saving and selling some other gun stuff.

So... do I keep the D790 and save for a lot longer to afford the thermal, or is the D790 going to sit in the safe all the time once I get thermal? If so, I’ll sell it and get the thermal much sooner.

This decision is compounded by the poor resale value of night vision. I won’t get a ton for it so even if I’ll use it occasionally it might not be worth selling?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[cake5150]

NV will give you MUCH, MUCH better detail than comparably (or double) priced thermal sights. I would highly suggest trying before you buy unless you already have. A thermal scanner to use in conjunction w/ your NV riflescope would likely make for a very, very effective combination. If you can find a decent thermal scanner that doubles as a shortish range weapon sight, all the better. Then you aren't forced to scan w/ your rifle either, safer and less fatigue.

 

[Hogrider2000]

i have and use both. Keep your NV right now and try the thermal. If you find the thermal meets all your needs THEN sell the NV.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'd keep your NV and get a thermal scanner to detect them with.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I'd suggest you keep both, both have their place.
On the thermals, there is a world of difference between the "affordable" stuff and the ones that start out in the 6k range and up.

I'd suggest that while thermals gives you hunting & avoidance capabilities that exceed those of NV, having the NV as well is a much more complete package, especially if you want magnification which is very expensive with thermals (not talking about crap "digital zoom"), an 8x germanium glass lens for the front of your thermal will cost way more than getting a NV unit with optical magnification (or mounting a NV unit behind your scope).

Right now you have rifle mounted units which are better for long range stuff, again NV has some uses like easier target shooting and a bit more detail.

For close up, if you are moving around, wearing a head mounted unit with an IR laser on your carbine lets you scan wider areas quicker.

If you eventually use a head mounted PVS-14, you can get the higher end COTI units that interface with it & you can adjust the mix of NV/Thermal to fit your needs, Outline overlay is excellent for hunting / avoiding. You just also get the eyepiece attachment unit so you can use it stand alone.

 

[wigwamitus]

I consider the mk3 60mm to be a "specialty" item, the second best long distance thermal spotter we can buy. Unless you need a long distance thermal spotter, then you don't need the mk3 60mm.
The mk3 35mm scope, or even the mk2 35mm scope will get the same shooting jobs done and closer in actually have a sharper image.
That said, the pulsar trails have 80% to 90% of the image of the trijicons for significantly lower cost.

Shooting with NV doesn't work much for me as we have so much vegetation around here. I live in a creek system. If you are shooting in open fields, then the NV with an illuminator works fine. Most of my shots are into and thru vegetation and NV doesn't often match up to those circumstances.

So it really depends on the distances and the terrain as to which solution would be optimal from you ... balancing the physical conditions and the cost.

Most people use handheld thermals, I do not. I either mount them on my helmet or on my rifles/carbines.

Primary night hunting/critter control setup ... click on the pic for larger image ...

IR-Patrol 19mm 1x 640(60) on left side of helmet (right side of pic)
PVS-14 on right side of helmet
PAS-29 10mm 1x 320(30) clipped on to pvs-14 to provide thermal overlay to the 14.

Mk3 60mm on the 5.56(10.3) carbine, with cqbl ir-laser on the 3 o'clock.

If I need to shoot fast, the pas29/pvs-14 with the ir-laser enables.

If I need to detect critters 100s of yards away, the patrol can do it.

If I need to PID critters 100s of yards away, the mk3 60mm can do it.

I have a pvs-30 and still trying to find ways to use it. When there is a lot of moon high in the sky, that illuminates inside the woods and then I can use it. But the thermals can still see the critters better.

==
Also note, none of the trijicon reticles have support for ballistic "holding" ... they are hunting reticles. So, for like my carbine above with 62gr tsx and 50yd zero (100yd double zero) my hold is 6 inches at 200yds, 12 inches at 250yds and 20 inches at 300yds and I'm about at my limit then for holding with the critter as the reticle, normally hold that much up above the center of the center of the neck.
If you need to shoot out to 500yds, that is different. The pulsars actually have some reticles that support holding. Also, some of them can save 10 different zeros and you could use that as sort of a "dialing" capability.
Using a longer barrel with a flatter flying cartridge would also help.
In my experience shooting 300yds at night is a long way. Shooting 500yds at night is a much longer way.
if you are already shooting dogs at 500yds with your current setup, the thermals will not help your shooting, though they can help with detection and PID.
Thermal clipons can help as then you can use your day scope reticle. But thermal clipons under $10k only support about 5x magnification on average. You have to breach the $10k barrier to get into the 10x + supported magnification (day scope magnification behind the thermal clipon) space. Then 500yds is a little easier from a gear perspective.

For mostly 200yds and in, the critter as a reticle works fine for almost all rifle/ammo combos (heavy subsonic bullets being an exception).

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I consider the mk3 60mm to be a "specialty" item, the second best long distance thermal spotter we can buy. Unless you need a long distance thermal spotter, then you don't need the mk3 60mm.
The mk3 35mm scope, or even the mk2 35mm scope will get the same shooting jobs done and closer in actually have a sharper image.


I have a pvs-30 and still trying to find ways to use it. When there is a lot of moon high in the sky, that illuminates inside the woods and then I can use it. But the thermals can still see the critters better.

I agree on the 60mm. IMO it's not worth the money over the 35mm for most uses but to me the MK3 is worth it over the MK2.

I don't run a PVS-30 anymore, I graduated to the M2124LR for it's lighter weight and much better focus adjustment, but I run it a lot more than I do a thermal. I live in the only or one of the only counties in my state that don't have a leash law and it's not uncommon for a neighborhood dog to come into a call. I also can't shoot foxes out of season unless I'm on my own property so I have to be able to ID a coyote from a dog and a fox and beyond about 150 yards a thermal just doesn't let me do that. I can always tell if it's a dog species and sometimes a dog from a yote or fox depending on the breed but unless I'm very familiar with the property it's hard to tell a fox from a coyote on thermal when they're out there.

For finding stuff to potentially smoke, nothing beats a thermal though. NV is still effective in wooded areas with canopy with an illuminator but thermal still beats it through brush.

 

[benzy2]

I would reconsider the mkiii 60. I think you have a great rifle mounted sight now. I would add a thermal spotter (hand or head mounted) but would do what I could to keep the sight you have now. It sounds like you are shooting in fairly open areas if you have up to 500 yard shots. The NV will outperform most commercial thermal out there at that distance.

You’ll certainly spot more things with a thermal and I would add one to the mix, but the more time goes, the more I lean towards NV on the rifle and thermal off of it. I do hunt mostly open areas and not thick woods. I haven’t had great luck in thick woods with thermal either. It helps in light brush tremendously, but thicker stuff has seemed to be too much for both, though I suppose that makes sense.

I think you could spend half as much on a handheld unit and get the spotting benefits and not give up the long range ID of night vision. But in the long run you have to get what makes you happy. What works in my location for my uses may not match up the same where you are and how you do things.

 

[Evolution 9]

Thank you all for sharing your wisdom!

I don’t know if it changes anything but a couple points of clarification:

500 yards is the very rare exception (maybe 3 of the last 100 coyotes). Almost all are from 120 to 220. If thermal helped me find 20% more predators I’d gladly take a max range of 300 yards.

As strange as it sounds, I don’t need PID. After lots of problems and multiple warnings, the ranchers have hired me to shoot ALL canines found near cattle. I avoid foxes, but around here their behavior and movement is very different from coyotes so distinguishing between them is usually easy. Obviously I still need to make sure it’s not a calf, but that should be easy.

My current hunting method. Don’t laugh:

I drive the roads adjacent to large pastures at 2:00 am (so nobody else is on the road). Headlights on, D790 on rifle rested on a Pump Pillow pointing out drivers side window. I watch through the scope as much as possible while keeping the truck on the road. At 30 mph I can often spot coyotes. I stop, they run, they stop at 120-220 yards to look back, I shoot.

I just can’t imagine how many I’m not spotting.

If I use a handheld thermal spotter, it needs enough native zoom (2.5?) and clarity to distinguish between the countless calves I’ll pass and a coyote.

 

[wigwamitus]

haha the advice seems to be moving in three dimensions !!!


I suspect there are at least three variables causing that:

01 - Terrain variation, my woods could be said to have a layer of "brush" in them which averages about waist high in the cool half of the year (mostly dead "weed" stalks) and about shoulder high in the warmer half of the year. Also, along the banks of the creeks (and there are 6 streams that join into the one main creek on my land, so you are never far from the creek banks, there is a fair amount of vegetation along these banks. I purposefully encourage that vegetation to slow the erosion process. In the winter this boils down to two thick rows of thick weed stalks (an average "weed" around here has a stalk about as thick as your thumb and hard enough that you give up trying to saw it off with a sharp serrated knife blade ) on the two banks ... so seeing across the creek requires thermal. NV cannot see through those stalks. The illuminator makes it worse because the light bounces off the stalks. The thermal can see through the stalks pretty darn well.

Cow laying down on my land at 400yds at night. That fence post is 84yds, NV cannot see the fence post, much less the cow.

02 - Experience in the terrain under discussion
I've done 90% of my night outtings, critter stalking/control, etc on my land and I learned the hard way what works and what doesn't under what conditions.

NV on steel at 500yds in open pasture with full moon behind me. NV works in this case !!

==
Cattle at 1,800

I don't think any NV I've had can see critters around here from about 1,200 plus.

==
With a moon over head, the big flash light in the sky illuminates inside the woods very well ... almost like day time through a 14. Smaller critters are still hard to see if they are down in vegetation layer typically within about 4 feet of the woods floor.

Also identifying critters with thermal is not as easy as it is with NV. With NV you often can tell instantly what something is. With thermal, I looked at a pig at about 500yds with the mk3 60mm in the open field. All night we had been seeing pigs and deer and yotes and often all three in the same field. The wind was blowing pretty hard, averaging above 20 mph. The pig was facing at us rooting. We moved to the left 50yds. It turned, we moved to the left 50yds, it turned. It had no idea we were there, but it happened to turn towards us three times after we moved. Finally after the 4th move it turned broadside and I could PID the pig. My buddies had a patrol (on 2x digital) and a Pulsar (3x optical magnification) but could get no PID. For that case, the mk3 60mm did the job.

But also watching critters move is in important part of PID for me. Deer, yotes and Pigs all move VERY differently, so do bobcats, etc. So, in general and 97% of the time ... I require observation of movement before making a PID.

So going out 100s of times thermal and observing critters move year in and year out helps immensely with PID in the field.

==
03 - Brains work different? I can't vouch for this variable, but some people tell me 'your brain works differently' especially regarding wearing thermal on my head. I have no idea, I just it works for me. I can roll on the 4-wheeler and detect critters out 100yds of yards while rolling. Often I can PID before I stop rolling, usually based on movement.

==
But within all these variables, there might be 100% potential range for different interpretations of what is being seen and hence what works. And I'm fine with that. But only going out there with the gear and experiencing these variables will aid the OP in deciding what works for him.

 

[wigwamitus]

...

I drive the roads adjacent to large pastures at 2:00 am (so nobody else is on the road). Headlights on, D790 on rifle rested on a Pump Pillow pointing out drivers side window. I watch through the scope as much as possible while keeping the truck on the road. At 30 mph I can often spot coyotes. I stop, they run, they stop at 120-220 yards to look back, I shoot.

Well that's pretty close to how we hunt hogs ... BUT Ive never done it with one person and that makes a huge difference ... but then the roads we were on did not have the for sure absolute knowledge of "nobody else on the road" ... and from a safety perspective that matters a lot.

If it was me drving a truck on a public road, I think I would stop or slow down to 5-10 mph before observing, but, that is me.

You will be able to detect them for sure with your technique, but PID with thermal will be tougher while you are moving, especially before you've done it 100 times. It will get easier then.

I also might note that thermal cannot see through normal glass (difference spectral band) so the thermal will only be able to see thru the rolled down window.

 

[Rerun7]

Agree with Wig on it depends a lot on your area. I hunt where there is a lot of vegetation and wooded areas so thermal is way more effective. I now only use the NV to navigate and thermal for all detection / shooting.

Animals just can’t hide from that thermal...

 

[wigwamitus]

I think it would be safer to look out of the passenger side while rolling in the truck with a handheld or head mounted thermal. Then stop to shoot.

Note, in the places I've hunted, shooting from a vehicle on a public road is er frowned upon. If it is a private road (with permission) then fine. But while we've spotted from the vehicle on public road, we've always gotten out of the vehicle and moved into the field before shooting. Again, on private land, private road not a problem. I shoot from my 4-wheeler (private land) all the time, though I do stop moving first!

 

[Evolution 9]

This whole operation would be frowned upon on several levels if I wasn’t employed by a ranch. There’s a lot of leeway given to livestock protection around here.

As to the safety of driving this way, it’s not ideal, but I’m in a flat valley with headlights on. I can see others vehicles (which is rare at 2:00am) from at least a mile away and same for them seeing me.

Based on your setup, Wigwamitis, I’m wondering what setup you’d recommend if I was starting fresh and didn’t own any night equipment yet.

 

[wigwamitus]

For open area ranch patrol, predator eradication, by one person !?

Can you drive in the fields? I will assume so as around here you can and everywhere else I've been we can, though not if the ground is muddy.

So if you can at least drive around the edges of the field in a pickup, then scanning from the pickup out the passenger side window should give you speedy scanning. I know why you want to be moving while you're scanning, because you have a zillion fields to scan and the slower you go the longer it takes. But it is a lot easier with two people ! Hecque, first suggestion, find a reliable partner !!

On the high end, the IR-Patrol gives a great image and is fairly small and light. I wear it on my head. There are 3x magnifiers you can clipon for scanning. There also might be a 3x magnifier you can screw on for shooting
But right now, commercially available there are 3x magnifiers you can clipon on for scanning. And 2x digital is not shabby with this unit. The Skeets are good to if you can find one.
There is also the best thermal spotter we can buy (that I know of) and that is the PatrolXR, this is roughly the same as the Mk3 60mm but in the joystick (patrol) housing and with a manual focus ring. And that manual focus ring is what makes it a better scanner than the mk3 60mm ,though the mk3 60mm can be shot off a weapon and the PatrolXR cannot. So that's the high end bracket. I'd probably go with the patrol with the 3x magnifier as it is more flexible, but then I like flexible. If you want the best LR scanner we can buy then go with the patrolXR.
On the low end bracket, there is the Helion series. The 640 50mm flavor has 2.5x optical and the 384 50mm flavor has 4.1x optical. And that is a close call, either one will actually work fine. The helion image is somewhere between 80% and 90% as clear as the OASYS patrols and given the price, that's saying a lot. I've run my mk3 60mm side by side with a guy with a helion 50mm 384 and he got more PIDs than I did, but I got the long distance ones. But then he'd been working these fields a lot. These units all get the job done, the patrolxr is a bit bigger and heavier, but has the most resolution due to the core and the magnification.

the helion 640 50mm with 2.5x magnification gives you 5x net magnification at 2x digital and should be under $4k
https://www.hueyoutdoors.com/product/helion-xp50-2-5-20x42-thermal-monocular/

the apex 50mm LRF (if you can find them) gives you 2.8x optical or 5.6x with 2x digital in the PIP for final aiming and a range finder that is good out to 500yds. And should be under $3,300
https://www.hueyoutdoors.com/product/apex-lrf-xq50-2-8-11-2x42-thermal-riflescope/

So for under $7,300 you should be able to get a great spotter and a very useful rifle scope. Call it $8k as there would be some extras I'm sure.

So that's a pulsar solution. I've had 4 pulsars (still have 1), but never had a line up like that !!!
Will the pulsar solution really do 500yds? With 5.6x magnification, I'd say it depends. Won't get much shot placement.
Bring the NV rifle as well, no reason not to, only one guy in the truck!

==
On the high end side, the PATROL with 3x (would run $8,500 or so ... you could get a patrolxr for less but it is less flexible) and a SNIPE for around $7,000 will support up to 8x with some fuzz, 6x without ... 7x with a little fuzz and you can use your day scope reticle to shoot and get out to 500yds. And if only one person in the car, then plenty of room for another rifle and have your NV scope on that rifle. And a flat flying cartridge with some barrel on it ... and a radius on your NV setup. radius prices are all over the map. I paid $600 for mine, but I've heard of people getting them for under $400. And an RRS tripod and head runs around $1,600 now. So the high end solution will probably run around $20k.

 

[Evolution 9]

Thank you, wig, I will take me a very long time to afford but I think I’ll aim for the high end setup and keep the night vision.

 

[benzy2]

I don’t know what you’re considering to be a very long time but you may well be better off to buy a used thermal scanner/spotter to start and once the bank account has grown enough, then sell it for a little loss and buy the high end unit(s). Since this is for a living, having an average option now will be more productive than waiting a very long time to get into the game. Having used a bit of the cheap and a bit of the expensive (from ATN
/Armasight to the SkeetIR and UTCx) the difference in image is real, but I also thought the budget options that had adjustable objective focus were very usable and far more effective than their price reflected.

 

[CBDR]

NV will give you MUCH, MUCH better detail than comparably (or double) priced thermal sights. I would highly suggest trying before you buy unless you already have. A thermal scanner to use in conjunction w/ your NV riflescope would likely make for a very, very effective combination. If you can find a decent thermal scanner that doubles as a shortish range weapon sight, all the better. Then you aren't forced to scan w/ your rifle either, safer and less fatigue.

Agree 100 percent

 

[TheGerman]

Thermal is for locating things.

Nightvision is for fighting it.

You need both.

 

[Andrew1182]

I've got a PVS14 and recently picked up a Pulsar Trail xp50. The NV has it's place, but I've not touched it since I got the thermal. My dogs are my usual test subjects: