Thermal clip-on for 4x ACOG: VooDoo-M, N-Vision Halo-C, Excelitas Dragon C12-XR, or something else?

[ardrummer292]

As the title says, I'm researching the best thermal for use in conjunction with a 4x32 ACOG. I've pestered @jstokes1 with these questions in the past, where I learned quite a bit. That said, I still don't have the technical know-how to really understand what all the different performance specs mean. Happy to receive any information the Hide wants to share.

My use-case is mounted on a 5.56 SBR (or training-appropriate equivalent) equipped with the aforementioned day optic, used for spotting two legged critters in force-on-force situations. As such, I'll need to make PID on them (or at least what they're carrying) within 100 yards or so. Clear identification of said critters should be easy within 300 yards.

My previous front-runner was the VooDoo-M, which should provide great clarity at the expense of a big honkin price tag. Wondering how you guys think the N-Vision Halo-C will measure up; the LRF and ballistic calculator are well in excess of my requirements though. I was also thinking about the Excelitas Dragon C12-XR, but it seems that @DownRangeThermal wasn't able to get those imported. Not sure where the NocPix Mate series clip-ons land in this lineup, or if they're a different class entirely.

 

[Bkultra]

For a SBR 5.56... why not look into the Voodoo S? The M is top tier, but the S seems more appropriate in this situation.

 

[ardrummer292]

For a SBR 5.56... why not look into the Voodoo S? The M is top tier, but the S seems more appropriate in this situation.

That was my initial thought as well. After talking through my use-case with @jstokes1, it became clear that the pixellation resulting from the 4x mag would make it unsuitable for what I need.

 

[Dogtown]

Yes, Voodoo-S is a much better fit than the M. It’s got a little bit of demag in it, so the ideal mag range is about 1.5-4x, which is why an LPVO is a better fit. In your case with an ACOG it’s a little less ideal, but still totally useable. You’d easily be able to get detailed PID at 100 yards, and be able to generally PID out to 300 yards.

I’ll see if I can get some pics with it in front of an ACOG in a bit.

 

[Dogtown]

Ok, so the old SF model ACOG isn't ideal for taking pics behind because my phone adapter won't fit it, but here's just a quick couple of examples of the image between the two devices at 4x, truck is 100 yards.

NOTE: Image I am seeing is cleaner than these two but it should help show the difference from the demag

Voodoo-S

Voodoo-M

So yeah, at 4x there's a little pixelation on the Voodoo-S while the M has none. However, there's a huge difference in size between these two devices and I wouldn't want to try to stuff the M on an SBR. On top of that, the FTS-style mount is 100% the way to go with these and that's also where the S jumps ahead. It's so fast and easy to flip the S away and back vs the M.

Personally, I think your biggest limitation is being married to the ACOG. If you had an LPVO instead the Voodoo-S would be a no brainer.

 

[Waddles0931]

That Voodoo M looks phenomenal!

 

[Dogtown]

That Voodoo M looks phenomenal!

I just went out and did some direct image snapshots from the devices for comparison. Here you can really see the difference between FOV of the units - settings were the same: Gain 0, Brightness 5, Sharpness 2

Voodoo-S

Voodoo-MX

 

[Dogtown]

Also, the white outline mode is REALLY damned good for detection.

This is busy AF because it's a hot day in the neighborhood, but I often take the Voodoo-S when I do early morning hikes with the dogs in the woods and this White Outline mode is superior to any COTI outline mode I've used. Early in the morning when the environment is pretty neutral, it REALLY makes critters pop in the distance - much better than White/Black hot modes.


Gratuitous BAE core shot...

 

[koshkin]

BAE got out of the thermal core business. Things will be changing once existing stock is fully depleted.

Ilya

 

[Evolution 9]

The correct answer is both. If that’s not an option, the correct answer is the Voodoo-S. The weight and FOV difference will matter.

If you compare only the image at 100 yards you’ll obviously choose the M. There’s a lot more to consider. That’s like choosing a silencer for max sound suppression… sounds intelligent but it’s not. What about weight? Flash? Back pressure? Etc. this is no different.

There is nothing to consider here. What you described needs a Voodoo-S. Other choices are wrong. Not kidding.

 

[ardrummer292]

Ok, so the old SF model ACOG isn't ideal for taking pics behind because my phone adapter won't fit it, but here's just a quick couple of examples of the image between the two devices at 4x, truck is 100 yards.

NOTE: Image I am seeing is cleaner than these two but it should help show the difference from the demag

Voodoo-S
View attachment 8762463

Voodoo-M
View attachment 8762464

So yeah, at 4x there's a little pixelation on the Voodoo-S while the M has none. However, there's a huge difference in size between these two devices and I wouldn't want to try to stuff the M on an SBR. On top of that, the FTS-style mount is 100% the way to go with these and that's also where the S jumps ahead. It's so fast and easy to flip the S away and back vs the M.

Personally, I think your biggest limitation is being married to the ACOG. If you had an LPVO instead the Voodoo-S would be a no brainer.

Massively useful comparison photos, thank you!

[...]
If you compare only the image at 100 yards you’ll obviously choose the M. There’s a lot more to consider. That’s like choosing a silencer for max sound suppression… sounds intelligent but it’s not. What about weight? Flash? Back pressure? Etc. this is no different.

There is nothing to consider here. What you described needs a Voodoo-S. Other choices are wrong. Not kidding.

Totally agree with you. One of the primary reasons I'm married to the ACOG is because of weight savings over an LPVO setup; it's far too easy to accidentally end up with a stupidly heavy rifle. Likewise with the BDC reticle, which is brain-dead easy to use, even under stress.

That said, I am adding a thermal to the rifle for a specific reason. I want to make sure that parameter is satisfied. The VooDoo-S picture through the ACOG looks a little questionable; I can't confidently say that I could PID an AK-pattern rifle versus an AR-pattern rifle with the resolution available. Could be a case of the camera not displaying a 1:1 rendition of what the eye sees, though.

BAE got out of the thermal core business. Things will be changing once existing stock is fully depleted.

Ilya

This is another variable in play. I wonder what will happen to the VooDoo line once the BAE cores run out. Anyone know what other US-made cores could be used to satisfy PoT's contracts?

I'm also wondering about the alternatives out there, namely the N-Vision HALO-C and Excelitas Dragon C12-XR. Not sure if anyone will have legit feedback on either of those, since they aren't actually available stateside at this point (to my knowledge, anyway).

 

[koshkin]

Massively useful comparison photos, thank you!



Totally agree with you. One of the primary reasons I'm married to the ACOG is because of weight savings over an LPVO setup; it's far too easy to accidentally end up with a stupidly heavy rifle. Likewise with the BDC reticle, which is brain-dead easy to use, even under stress.

That said, I am adding a thermal to the rifle for a specific reason. I want to make sure that parameter is satisfied. The VooDoo-S picture through the ACOG looks a little questionable; I can't confidently say that I could PID an AK-pattern rifle versus an AR-pattern rifle with the resolution available. Could be a case of the camera not displaying a 1:1 rendition of what the eye sees, though.



This is another variable in play. I wonder what will happen to the VooDoo line once the BAE cores run out. Anyone know what other US-made cores could be used to satisfy PoT's contracts?

I'm also wondering about the alternatives out there, namely the N-Vision HALO-C and Excelitas Dragon C12-XR. Not sure if anyone will have legit feedback on either of those, since they aren't actually available stateside at this point (to my knowledge, anyway).

DRS and FLIR make cores in the US. Seek/Raytheon do as well. Dalsa makes cores in Canada. Lynred makes them in France, but they can likely adapt to making sensors in France and cores in the US if they want.

Ilya

 

[Dogtown]

Totally agree with you. One of the primary reasons I'm married to the ACOG is because of weight savings over an LPVO setup; it's far too easy to accidentally end up with a stupidly heavy rifle. Likewise with the BDC reticle, which is brain-dead easy to use, even under stress.

FWIW, the average ACOG is about 15oz while the NX8 1-8x is about 17oz.

 

[Evolution 9]

FWIW, the average ACOG is about 15oz while the NX8 1-8x is about 17oz.

The extended mount adds weight and shoves the weight of both scope and mount forward, making a meaningful weight difference and a very significant difference in balance and perceived weight. Then the clip-on has to be mounted further forward, further exacerbating the problem.

You’re right that the initial difference is small, but its affects add up fast.

With that said, the 1-8 is worth it to me, so I put up with the weight/balance.

 

[leeb10]

FWIW, the average ACOG is about 15oz while the NX8 1-8x is about 17oz.

Got to compare apples to apples ie. optic and mount. Acog is ~15 oz with mount. NX8 with a qualtiy mount is ~24oz. Also the weight of the ACOG is balanced further to the rear due to the eye relief needed for the 4x models.

 

[Dogtown]

Yeah fair point

 

[DeauxJoe]

Few things:

1- I hate when people add to conversations and give suggestions that CLEARLY do not meet the OP's specific use case.

2- I'm going to do it anyway.....

3- In this case, the specific reason I am making this suggestion is that I have hands-on experience with all items in question, and at the price points you are shopping, you would be doing a disservice to not at least check this out..... here we go, don't come for me lol.

OP, I ran through SEVERAL optics behind my Voodoo-s. I even called PoT and, upon their suggestion, picked up an ELCAN as according to them, the ELCAN/Voodoo-s combo produced the absolute best image possible. I finally landed on the Kahles K18i-2 and WOW! Full disclosure, I am affiliated with the brand, but I really tried a lot of different optics, starting with the NX8. The additional FOV and crispness of a high-end LPVO is VERY noticeable with the Voodoo-S. I'm aware this is a 22oz optic vs a 14oz optic but for the price of a Voodoo-s it is well worth it to see the image through one of these. My goal was to squeeze every oz of performance out of the S, and I believe the high-end LPVOs do it.