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Semi-scientific High End Spotter Test

In 2007 I went to the SHOT show with one particular agenda in mind, which was to get my eye through all the high end spotters. The new Kowa Prominar was there. I observed the same thing as the reviewers, that is "all" the other scopes were distanced by a large margin compared to the pristine image quality new Kowa.

Here we are years later and apparently not much has changed except price increases. However my requirements for a spotter have changed because I would get more use with a reticled spotter so I doubt I'll ever buy a Kowa but I know it would be my first choice otherwise.

While we are talking spotting scopes...the best glass for the price I've seen so far was a Pentax PF100. Not as awesome as the Prominar but easily up there and perhaps surpassing the Euro big 3 spotters.
 
OP,

Right now, budget constraints have me hovering around the TSN-82SV neighborhood. I have been told that the 663 Prominar is a better all-around spotter. What are your thoughts concerning these two in a mini-comparision?

Mods, let me know if I stray too far off topic.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Ok, I'll bite...

Let me start off by saying that I am the owner and inventor of the TargetCam product Target Cam | Long Range Precision Spotting Equipment - Home so I have some fairly strong opinions on this subject. Our product uses a different approach and technology to accomplish the mission of seeing far away objects. Allow me to throw out a few different ideas on this never ending "which high end spotter is best" question.

First let me just get this out there...if you're talking about being able to see shots on a distant target - I'll make this very gutsy claim...our TargetCam product will allow you to see shots on a target far better than even the astronomically priced Nikon Edge. There, I said it. Sorry if this ruffles your feathers but I will personally guarantee you that when shooting out past 600 or so you will see your shots far better using our system. Yes, I'm the inventor. Yes, I'm very very bias. But yes, I am quite proud of what we have made and the ease of use that it provides the user to solve this age old problem of not being able to see shots on far away targets.

Ok, but our system is not useful for hunting. This is correct for many hunters. However, having said that, we do have a number of people adapting our system for hunting. Our system is basically a small compact portable video surveillance system. Live video transmitted back to the base unit/viewing screen. We've had quite a few good ol boys from Texas and down south buy our system for use with hog hunting. They put out 3-4 bait piles miles apart and then put one of our cameras on each bait pile. Then they just sit around the campfire back at camp and dial around on the channels on the Targetcam base unit looking at the different bait piles waiting for the hogs to come in. Oh, action on camera 3....hop on the ATVs, bomb out there to blow em away. This is, I know, a different form of hunting than most of you guys are talking about.

The funnest thing about hunting is, well, hunting. I mean the actual stalking, hiking, tracking part of it. For this the best observation device is a good set of binos hanging around your neck. A spotting scope in your backpack just isn't going to be used nearly as much for the simple fact that it is in your backpack and not hanging around your neck. IMO, its more fun and productive to be on the move tracking and moving. The setup, tear down of a tripod and spotter just isn't conducive to this. Actually the best setup that I've found is one guy has a spotting scope tucked away in case you are stationary for a while and want to glass a far away mountainside or something and the others have binos. For the most part though, when hunting, a decent binos is going to get a lot more use, and be less hassle. Not to mention less stress because if something happens to your $600 binos you'll be pissed but if something happens to your freakin $3500 spotter you'll be ready to jump off the closest bridge. The expensive gear is nice but hunting/camping/traveling/eating out afterwords/ is full of circumstances for expensive gear to get lost, stolen, thrashed and broken...A small tough $600 pair of binos = a lot less stress, more versatile and, in the end, more fun.

This spotting scope test is a good test. An interesting read...but let's get real. 6 large for a spotting scope???? Holy smokes!!! Are you out of your Vulcan mind Spock???That thing might be a real gem and all but it might as well not even exist because I will never pay $6 grand for a spotting scope. I really don't even want one. The stress of taking a $6,000 piece of gear out into the woods, hiking over rocks, logs or whatever... or on the trip out there, in and out of hotels, flying checking baggage, rental cars....too much to worry about. It's so expensive it is dead to me. Don't want it, don't even want to read about it.

But the Kowa....ahhh the Kowa. I've used these things and they are beautiful. I like everything about the Kowa 883s. It's expensive, but if someone put a gun to my head and said I had to spend $3k on a spotting scope I'd sign up for the Kowa in a heartbeat.

So, in conclusion (sorry for the long winded post), in my admittedly very bias opinion, the best spotting setup for hunting and long range target shooting is...our TargetCam product for long range target shooting, a decent set of binos, and a hunting buddy with a Kowa 883. You've got it all covered this way. At the range, I guarantee you will see shots far better with our system than you would with even the most expensive spotting scope in the test. This is a guarantee. Especially true on a hot day with mirage and dust. You could put the Hubble telescope out there and you're not going to see shots very well. It's not about the quality of the glass so much as it is about the atmosphere between the spotter and the target. For this reason these spotters can not compete with our system. Our camera is 20-25 feet from the target and the wireless signal transmits the live video image back to the screen next to you. No mirage issue.

For hunting, a decent pair of binos. Tougher, more useful than a spotting scope, and more fun because they are always there ready hanging around your neck.

Through the Hide our single camera system is $785 with free US shipping Target Cam®? The ?High Tech? Spotting Scope You can also add additional cameras which allows you to switch to see multiple targets. About 1/2 of our customers order more than one camera.

a decent set of binos can be had for $500-$800. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-observation-devices/253906-need-new-set-binos.html Another good option is the integrated binos/rangefinders. I don't know much about em and never had one but seems like a great piece of gear.

TargetCam ($800) + binos ($600) = $1400 and in my very very very bias opinion a better setup than the $3,000 - $6,000 spotting scope option.

Sorry for the shameless plugs for our TargetCam product. I'm damn proud of it and I've also had it setup side by side many times to lots of spotting scopes and found it to have large advantages over all of them.

call me any time if you have questions.
 
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TahoeRider, agreed. You have an awesome product and I love it! I shot with it at Media Day before SHOT this year. We should be selling it soon. But people use spotters for a lot more than static targets. For that, it can't be beat, no question. Loved using it at 1000 yards and was amazed at the features. Nice job.
 
I'll take one of each----Oh, WAIT!!!! I don't have enough money for ANY of them! Oh, well, a man can dream, can't he???

Seriously, I am grateful for the review here, and one day, I do hope to purchase something good in that department. Until then, I guess I'll buy another Night-Force Rifle Scope, and we'll use the second rifle for a spotter.
Thanks guys!
 
Good product Tahoe, but I am actually in the market for a spotting scope. My own private range one day, yep, then we can do business. I do appreciate the info that you drop in the spotting scope threads though.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Tahoe,
How is your camera for reading mirage?
 
Good article, Optics Planet. I've had both the swaro and the 883 as well as some others that are not in the same league. I've ended up with the Kowa's little brother the 773. It's 99% of the scope the 883 is, just a little smaller, lighter and handier. Easy to carry in my shooting cart, or in a backpack for air travel to matches. It's going to take something really remarkable to get me to switch, and I guarantee it won't be a target camera that can only look at one thing.
 
Tahoe,
How is your camera for reading mirage?

Good point. It won't read mirage. We're working on something though that will be way more accurate than guessing at wind calls by reading the mirage. I'll keep you posted on that development. But it will let you see shots on a target from any distance. Even small caliber holes on paper. I had a customer call a few weeks ago and they decided to test the range of our system. They called me and said they were 5 miles from their target and could see 22 caliber holes clear as a bell. They were out testing and just thought they'd try to find the limits of our system.
 
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TahoeRider, agreed. You have an awesome product and I love it! I shot with it at Media Day before SHOT this year. We should be selling it soon. But people use spotters for a lot more than static targets. For that, it can't be beat, no question. Loved using it at 1000 yards and was amazed at the features. Nice job.

Thanks! I'm not saying spotting scopes aren't useful. They are. But if you're looking for something that will allow you to see distant targets and get immediate feedback after every shot without even moving off the rifle it's a simple decision.



http://snipershide.mycustomevent.co...w&iid=91&&returncom=productlist&source=search
 
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Hi Keith E.-That would sure be a tough one to call. Resolution increases with objective diameter, but both of them are really so great that they'd have to be side by side. I personally usually opt for smaller products in the field, where I'm mostly using them. Even my hunting binoculars have been smaller over the years, and I don't feel slighted a bit. I really have begun to appreciate more and more as the years go by that lighter and smaller suits my older body better.
 
Disappointed that this assesment did not include the Meopta Meostar S2 82 spotting scope. The Czech Meopta is most assuredly a high end scope but runs about $2K. The optics are at least on par with Swaro and Leica, but with wider field of view, better depth of field and higher contrast. The scope has had some seriously positive reviews in the birder community and on Rokslide.
Skip
 
Sorry, but I give this review and his "test" very little credibility. Having owned a Kowa it's an excellent scope but to say it outshines the Leica or Swarovski is not correct. Given the fact that in his own words he says "It wasn't a very technical test, and it was a bit impromptu" shows that there was a bit of bias in it.
 
I do not understand why you would exclude the new Swarovski scopes ATX/STX series. I own the one with the 95mm and the 65mm objective and though I am certainly not a expert I can tell you that it is much better than the 80mm Swarovski you included in the test comparison.

I have used or owned all of the spotters you tested and I believe the new Swaro beats them all, including the Kowa.

Remember folks, just my opinion regarding performance and functionality - not price.

Spotting Scopes ATX STX SWAROVSKI OPTIK
 
Sorry, but I give this review and his "test" very little credibility. Having owned a Kowa it's an excellent scope but to say it outshines the Leica or Swarovski is not correct. Given the fact that in his own words he says "It wasn't a very technical test, and it was a bit impromptu" shows that there was a bit of bias in it.

I am confused? Where was Leica mentioned in this review? Also the swaro he tested is an older model which I have I looked through and its good, just not as good as the Kiowa 883/884. Maybe if he had a 95mm Swaro it would have been a closer match.
 
I am confused? Where was Leica mentioned in this review? Also the swaro he tested is an older model which I have I looked through and its good, just not as good as the Kiowa 883/884. Maybe if he had a 95mm Swaro it would have been a closer match.

You are correct, I typed Leica when I meant Zeiss. But it does bring up a good point as to why the Leica wasn't included.

So again, this "test" seemed like nothing more than a push for Kowa.
 
Not biased at all, and I used what we had in stock, simple as that. BTW, The Meopta S2 82 is almost identical to the Nightforce. That's who makes it for them. I didn't have a Leica to test, and we don't sell Swarovski at this time. Certainly wasn't biased at all. Didn't care one way or the other. All 5 Product experts conducted the test individually, and at least in this comparison, the Kowa was the best in everyone's test by a large margin. Take it for what it's worth. I have a great relationship with Leupold, Vortex, and Nikon, and the test didn't do them great favors. I'm just calling them the way I see them.
 
I just bought a razor hd because it was the best I could afford. I tested it against a swaro atx and although it wasnt as bright there wasnt anything i could do with the swaro that i couldnt do with the razor so all in all im pretty happy. the price of the razor has ment I can start doing shooting i couldnt before
 
Razor is a great scope for the price! You wont be upset. Keep in mind the scopes we tested were all higher end. I'll be posting my review shortly of the test as well. While similar to Steve's in some aspects, others will differ. We all have different eyes that detect slight differences. doing the test inside with controls, then outside at distance, then closer range outside, offered a lot of comparables. It was a lot of fun to do but of course we would have liked to get more out there for the test but this was still a unexpected outcome and pleasant surprise for many of them.

Trevor B.
 
Sorry, but I give this review and his "test" very little credibility. Having owned a Kowa it's an excellent scope but to say it outshines the Leica or Swarovski is not correct. Given the fact that in his own words he says "It wasn't a very technical test, and it was a bit impromptu" shows that there was a bit of bias in it.

I have never seen a visual comparison between the Kowa Prominar and any other line with similar sized objective where the Kowa didn't win out. And I have read a lot of reviews. The only reason it was even worth noting was the margin between the Kowa and the next best thing. The people who are biggest on Kowa Prominars are the birders and those guys know glass.

For what we do, something that has a reticle will serve most here better. It would be great if Kowa had a reticle version, but they don't, so Kowa won't rank as tops around here.

And Tahoe Rider is right... for spotting hits on paper at long range and even medium range on days with heavy mirage, the quality of the spotter simply doesn't matter. A target cam is the best option.

I have a Kowa Prominar. The picture is breathtaking. It is overkill for spotting shots on paper at 100 - 300 yards (which is what I use it for the most) and it is not enough to spot shots at 800 - 1,000 (which is what I have tried to do too often). It is the best non-reticled spotting scope around, but for what most of us do, it is either too much or not enough.
 
camera systems for target shooting are great inventions. makes things a lot simpler and less streeful for sure.

One point that seems to have been lost so far is the other uses of spotters. We use them for target shooting, great. However, what actually promted my desire to do the test was that on a hunt last year in NE, my guide used a Vortex Razor. Liked it quite a bit. HUGE difference using a spotter at dawn of dusk to spot a rack at 800 yards and tell a 160 from a 180 or even 200+. In hunting, quality of this category will matter more. Sure, in target shooting we got the cool gadgets now. But on a hunt, especially when its cold, sitting over a door and looking thru one of these on a window mount on a $4000+ hunt, it can make a difference that's very noticeable.

More to it than target shooting, interesting enough that's where the discussion turned. Test was created out of that hunting trip however. Just hard to test several spotters on a moving out of season buck a few hundred yards away! ha!

Trevor B.
 
I have never seen a visual comparison between the Kowa Prominar and any other line with similar sized objective where the Kowa didn't win out. And I have read a lot of reviews. The only reason it was even worth noting was the margin between the Kowa and the next best thing. The people who are biggest on Kowa Prominars are the birders and those guys know glass.

For what we do, something that has a reticle will serve most here better. It would be great if Kowa had a reticle version, but they don't, so Kowa won't rank as tops around here.

And Tahoe Rider is right... for spotting hits on paper at long range and even medium range on days with heavy mirage, the quality of the spotter simply doesn't matter. A target cam is the best option.

I have a Kowa Prominar. The picture is breathtaking. It is overkill for spotting shots on paper at 100 - 300 yards (which is what I use it for the most) and it is not enough to spot shots at 800 - 1,000 (which is what I have tried to do too often). It is the best non-reticled spotting scope around, but for what most of us do, it is either too much or not enough.

What is it that "we do around here". Are you speaking of your group? I've spotted for years and as long as you know the target size, a reticle is not necessary. A benefit, yes, necessary, no. And without a doubt a target cam is ideal but then again, if you're not on a range, they're pointless.

I completely disagree with you on the heavy mirage issue. An excellent quality scope can help even when there's heavy mirage, especially when you turn down the power of the scope. The quality of the coatings and glass can make a difference.

I'm not saying the Prominar is a bad scope, not by a long shot. But IMO and my experience in actually using a spotting scope and lens and optics technology, the Kowa does not compare to the Swarovski or the Leica (obviously the newer models.)
 
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I have never seen a visual comparison between the Kowa Prominar and any other line with similar sized objective where the Kowa didn't win out.

Here's one. And from birders no less, oh, the horror.
The New Zeiss DiaScope 85 T* FL - by Michael and Diane Porter

"In our above-mentioned review, we assigned the highest resolution score, of 5, to the Kowa TSN-883 Prominar 88mm scope, which had the best resolving power at maximum magnification. If we had to use the same scale to rate the Zeiss 85mm DiaScope with its 20-75x zoom, we would have to give it a 6!"

Joe
 
To say were were impressed would be quite an understatement.

Of course, the optics are stunning and superb. You'd expect nothing less from Swarovski.

For resolution, contrast, freedom from chromatic aberration, and silk-smooth engineering, there is nothing better than these Swarovski scopes.

Swarovski ATX Modular Scope System Review by Michael Diane Porter


Same folks, but with the latest entry into high end scopes
 
Great responses here!

Also important to remember that different companies uses different coatings to enhance certain colors. Some companies will enhanced the yellows to make a 'brighter' effect, while other companies (Leica) do not enhance the colors for their own reasoning of they don't want to distort what's natural.

Trevor B.
 
I don't find this informal test not 'credible'.
I don't think this or any other 'test' would be the end all final word either.
I do appreciate the effort and am enlightened by the results.
Thank you.
 
Ok, I'll bite...

Let me start off by saying that I am the owner and inventor of the TargetCam product Target Cam | Long Range Precision Spotting Equipment - Home so I have some fairly strong opinions on this subject. Our product uses a different approach and technology to accomplish the mission of seeing far away objects. Allow me to throw out a few different ideas on this never ending "which high end spotter is best" question.

First let me just get this out there...if you're talking about being able to see shots on a distant target - I'll make this very gutsy claim...our TargetCam product will allow you to see shots on a target far better than even the astronomically priced Nikon Edge. There, I said it. Sorry if this ruffles your feathers but I will personally guarantee you that when shooting out past 600 or so you will see your shots far better using our system. Yes, I'm the inventor. Yes, I'm very very bias. But yes, I am quite proud of what we have made and the ease of use that it provides the user to solve this age old problem of not being able to see shots on far away targets.

Ok, but our system is not useful for hunting. This is correct for many hunters. However, having said that, we do have a number of people adapting our system for hunting. Our system is basically a small compact portable video surveillance system. Live video transmitted back to the base unit/viewing screen. We've had quite a few good ol boys from Texas and down south buy our system for use with hog hunting. They put out 3-4 bait piles miles apart and then put one of our cameras on each bait pile. Then they just sit around the campfire back at camp and dial around on the channels on the Targetcam base unit looking at the different bait piles waiting for the hogs to come in. Oh, action on camera 3....hop on the ATVs, bomb out there to blow em away. This is, I know, a different form of hunting than most of you guys are talking about.

The funnest thing about hunting is, well, hunting. I mean the actual stalking, hiking, tracking part of it. For this the best observation device is a good set of binos hanging around your neck. A spotting scope in your backpack just isn't going to be used nearly as much for the simple fact that it is in your backpack and not hanging around your neck. IMO, its more fun and productive to be on the move tracking and moving. The setup, tear down of a tripod and spotter just isn't conducive to this. Actually the best setup that I've found is one guy has a spotting scope tucked away in case you are stationary for a while and want to glass a far away mountainside or something and the others have binos. For the most part though, when hunting, a decent binos is going to get a lot more use, and be less hassle. Not to mention less stress because if something happens to your $600 binos you'll be pissed but if something happens to your freakin $3500 spotter you'll be ready to jump off the closest bridge. The expensive gear is nice but hunting/camping/traveling/eating out afterwords/ is full of circumstances for expensive gear to get lost, stolen, thrashed and broken...A small tough $600 pair of binos = a lot less stress, more versatile and, in the end, more fun.

This spotting scope test is a good test. An interesting read...but let's get real. 6 large for a spotting scope???? Holy smokes!!! Are you out of your Vulcan mind Spock???That thing might be a real gem and all but it might as well not even exist because I will never pay $6 grand for a spotting scope. I really don't even want one. The stress of taking a $6,000 piece of gear out into the woods, hiking over rocks, logs or whatever... or on the trip out there, in and out of hotels, flying checking baggage, rental cars....too much to worry about. It's so expensive it is dead to me. Don't want it, don't even want to read about it.

But the Kowa....ahhh the Kowa. I've used these things and they are beautiful. I like everything about the Kowa 883s. It's expensive, but if someone put a gun to my head and said I had to spend $3k on a spotting scope I'd sign up for the Kowa in a heartbeat.

So, in conclusion (sorry for the long winded post), in my admittedly very bias opinion, the best spotting setup for hunting and long range target shooting is...our TargetCam product for long range target shooting, a decent set of binos, and a hunting buddy with a Kowa 883. You've got it all covered this way. At the range, I guarantee you will see shots far better with our system than you would with even the most expensive spotting scope in the test. This is a guarantee. Especially true on a hot day with mirage and dust. You could put the Hubble telescope out there and you're not going to see shots very well. It's not about the quality of the glass so much as it is about the atmosphere between the spotter and the target. For this reason these spotters can not compete with our system. Our camera is 20-25 feet from the target and the wireless signal transmits the live video image back to the screen next to you. No mirage issue.

For hunting, a decent pair of binos. Tougher, more useful than a spotting scope, and more fun because they are always there ready hanging around your neck.

Through the Hide our single camera system is $785 with free US shipping Target Cam®? The ?High Tech? Spotting Scope You can also add additional cameras which allows you to switch to see multiple targets. About 1/2 of our customers order more than one camera.

a decent set of binos can be had for $500-$800. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-observation-devices/253906-need-new-set-binos.html Another good option is the integrated binos/rangefinders. I don't know much about em and never had one but seems like a great piece of gear.

TargetCam ($800) + binos ($600) = $1400 and in my very very very bias opinion a better setup than the $3,000 - $6,000 spotting scope option.

Sorry for the shameless plugs for our TargetCam product. I'm damn proud of it and I've also had it setup side by side many times to lots of spotting scopes and found it to have large advantages over all of them.

call me any time if you have questions.

Yeah and as soon as I get my spotters and Laser sorted out Im gonna pester the life out of you to send me one, that's the best thing since sliced bread,

Blessin's John