Do you guys generally prefer to shoot your load development groups at 100 or 200 yards. I've been hand loading for a few years and have always done my load work at 200 yards. I always thought it was better to see what the load at 200 yards as 100 yards seems like a little close. From what I'm reading, seems like I've been doing wrong. I alway thought 100 yards was too close. Thoughts?
Shoot your groups at 100 or 200 yards for load development?
- Thread starter giannid
- Start date
The way i was trained is test at 100 yards, and refine the load at 200. Now this depends on the caliber and the intended purpose of the load . Also from 100-300 is considered close range .
For groups, Initial testing at 300. Final testing at 500
A Savage 30-06 with a 3-9 for hunting closer I’ll just test at 100 and pick whatever groups best and roll with it
Cue up the,
“bullets don’t stabilize (go to sleep) until past 100, that’s why my gun shoots better groups at 500 than it does at 200 yards”
A Savage 30-06 with a 3-9 for hunting closer I’ll just test at 100 and pick whatever groups best and roll with it
Cue up the,
“bullets don’t stabilize (go to sleep) until past 100, that’s why my gun shoots better groups at 500 than it does at 200 yards”
My bullets are dead asleep as soon as they clear the rifling, but it's pretty hard on paper targets at that range.
I’ve done both 100 and 200 on the same rifle, same barrel and projectiles. Made no difference other than making the groups slightly bigger at 200. This was on both a 6.5CM and 338LM. I just stick with testing at 100 and verifying at 400-1000.
Depends on your intended purpose of the load/loads and how far you are able to shoot.
With my precision long range stuff I will shoot 300 or 600/650.....depending on the bullet and how good of quality they are. Hornady eldms I can find what I need at 300, Berger or lathe turned copper bullets 600/650.
I will find what powder charge I want start at and a generic seating depth......I typically start at .010” off with every bullet and wherever I start at with the powder charge I then go .5g increments up until I see pressure signs....1-2 bullets per charge. I will also load some of the lower charge weights to get on target where I want and get initial velocities. I hang a large piece of paper at either of the ranges, I have the point of aim low and watch the bullets migrate up on the target, horizontal don’t really matter at this time but vertical is what your looking for, I also put a camcorder down there pointing at the target to watch later where the bullets go and mark them accordingly to shot #. What I look for is velocity and the spread of the bullet holes, I choose to load where the velocity es is the closest in between shots and the bullets are close to each other. I then pick somewhere in between the .5g powder jump where I want my velocity and then start seating depth tests at 100 yrds, once I get what I like there I move back to 500+yards and shoot for groups with promising loads with consistent es/sd #’s.
I generally do this with differing primers and powder at the same time, cci or feds is generally always going to give you something with whatever powder you decide. If you don’t like what you see, try a different combo, you will know if the primers don’t work with your choice of powder, you won’t get what you want or like what you got so then I would move to a different powder and repeat the process all over again.
It’s like a hopped up Satterlee test. Ryan Furman at Long Range Only had posted this method that he came up with and I haven’t looked back, it’s easy on everything. He has a video on YouTube on what I described. I do something’s a little different but not too much. It is also possible to use this method and not need a chronograph.
Good luck
With my precision long range stuff I will shoot 300 or 600/650.....depending on the bullet and how good of quality they are. Hornady eldms I can find what I need at 300, Berger or lathe turned copper bullets 600/650.
I will find what powder charge I want start at and a generic seating depth......I typically start at .010” off with every bullet and wherever I start at with the powder charge I then go .5g increments up until I see pressure signs....1-2 bullets per charge. I will also load some of the lower charge weights to get on target where I want and get initial velocities. I hang a large piece of paper at either of the ranges, I have the point of aim low and watch the bullets migrate up on the target, horizontal don’t really matter at this time but vertical is what your looking for, I also put a camcorder down there pointing at the target to watch later where the bullets go and mark them accordingly to shot #. What I look for is velocity and the spread of the bullet holes, I choose to load where the velocity es is the closest in between shots and the bullets are close to each other. I then pick somewhere in between the .5g powder jump where I want my velocity and then start seating depth tests at 100 yrds, once I get what I like there I move back to 500+yards and shoot for groups with promising loads with consistent es/sd #’s.
I generally do this with differing primers and powder at the same time, cci or feds is generally always going to give you something with whatever powder you decide. If you don’t like what you see, try a different combo, you will know if the primers don’t work with your choice of powder, you won’t get what you want or like what you got so then I would move to a different powder and repeat the process all over again.
It’s like a hopped up Satterlee test. Ryan Furman at Long Range Only had posted this method that he came up with and I haven’t looked back, it’s easy on everything. He has a video on YouTube on what I described. I do something’s a little different but not too much. It is also possible to use this method and not need a chronograph.
Good luck
100yds. I haven’t found anything yet that will shoot at 100 and then won’t shoot at 1k unless the bullets are inconsistent thus varying the BC from bullet to bullet.
You can test velocity and seating depth at 100. Then go to distance to test the bullets. Just don’t make the mistake of messing with powder or seating depth you have already finished working on if a load “falls apart at distance.” If you did the proper velocity and seating work at 100, issues at distance are only from the shooter or the bullet at that point.
You can test velocity and seating depth at 100. Then go to distance to test the bullets. Just don’t make the mistake of messing with powder or seating depth you have already finished working on if a load “falls apart at distance.” If you did the proper velocity and seating work at 100, issues at distance are only from the shooter or the bullet at that point.
D
Deleted member 10043
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You're zeroed at 100 so just shoot for groups at 100 during development to minimize interfering variables and you don't have to get off your ass and go all the way down there. I've never understood this 300 or 500 yard shit.
Also, I need to add, I don’t make a special range trip to test bullets. I assume they are g2g because I use Berger. But with any bullet I would assume good.
I use my dope gathering time to asses the bullets. As in, I just go and gather dope. If something doesn’t seem right or won’t group well, then I will take a step back and move into trouble shooting.
So, I do all load development (when I even worry with it, but that’s another convo) at 100. Then I gather dope and *if* something doesn’t go well, I reassess.
I use my dope gathering time to asses the bullets. As in, I just go and gather dope. If something doesn’t seem right or won’t group well, then I will take a step back and move into trouble shooting.
So, I do all load development (when I even worry with it, but that’s another convo) at 100. Then I gather dope and *if* something doesn’t go well, I reassess.
I never did until I tried it
. Way less components used if done right, bigger picture to a story that at 100yrds you would’ve never gotten and literally a bulletproof process.It may take a bit more to setup and get planned but in the end it’s worth it. I can find loads, get seating depth done and confirm loads in less than 50 bullets if I get lucky on powder charge start and stop.
With the proper process you can do it in the same amount of rounds at 100 that you do at 2 or 300.
The only actual thing that changes is if you have issues personally deciphering stuff at 100, 200 and 300 give you some space in your group. With that comes the price of environment having larger effect on things.
It’s a visual thing. Functionally and practically the distance doesn’t matter.
The only actual thing that changes is if you have issues personally deciphering stuff at 100, 200 and 300 give you some space in your group. With that comes the price of environment having larger effect on things.
It’s a visual thing. Functionally and practically the distance doesn’t matter.
I totally agree, functionality and practically the distance doesn’t matter as long as you read your 100yrd groups correctly and have chronograph data to back it up.
I’m not trying to argue with anyone, bad mouth a proven process or discount anyone’s process but for new shooters/reloaders, even older shooters/reloaders the process that Ryan came up with works every time without a doubt.
I’ve tried the 100 stuff to start out with and it worked but why work hard at something that you can change to make it easier to decipher. 100 yard stuff CAN be a mess, you CAN come up with something but you test it out farther and it falls apart, why not do a little load development at the actual range you intend on shooting to, practice at those distances to get used to the environmentals and to get used to reading those environmental changes?
Give Ryan’s video a watch and keep an open mind of what he’s saying and telling people. I’m not saying anyone is wrong with their process, some don’t have access to land like I do but if I can improve on something and it works time and time again and is easy I don’t mind sharing for new guys to learn, choose what works for them in their situation.
I included a 300yrd target from my prc......there’s holes there that if I was at 100 yards there would be no way to tell what is what with .5g increments to boot, barely could at 300, so I moved to 650.
Some of you are WAY better at reading 100 yard targets than me, great, keep up the excellent work and keep doing what works for you!
Again, things don’t “fall apart” at distance because of powder charge and seating depth. And you can find powder nodes literally without a target, just shooting
For example, a .3 moa rifle at 100 can only shoot .75moa for a few very specific reasons:
Shooter error
Environment
Velocity (powder charge)
BC variance
You should have already found a charge that has an acceptable ES. So velocity/powder charge isn’t the culprit.
That leaves use with only shooter error (which includes mirage, light refraction, etc) that have nothing to do with load.
BC variance is bullet to bullet inconsistency. The solution is either better bullets or trimming/tipping bullets.
Literally the only target reading I do at 100yds is seating depth and/or tuner testing. You guys are not using the most modern load development techniques. Still using original or modified OCW that was developed before modern chronos and powder scales were available.
By the time you’ve walked/driven to your 300 or 600 yd target, either analyzed it or brought it back to analyze it, I’m already done. Rounds shot in berm for powder. Groups shot on paper for seating/tuning. Done. And if you’re running something like any modern 6mm or 6.5mm, and shooting practical sized targets, if you’re doing any kind of in depth load development, you’re over complicating it.
With modern tools and components, load development is extremely easy as long as using modern methods.
^^^THIS RIGHT HERE!!!! but some where along the way PPL have over thought this simple thing to death and here we are with a hundred thousand ways to get to the same point and everyone claiming their way is faster easier and can be done with less components LOL!!!
D
Deleted member 10043
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And I'll add there is no secret code for deciphering groups at 100 yards. And if by chance you don't know the code shooting for groups at 650 yards is not 
going to defeat said code. We're talking about shooting groups for load development. Nevetheless, some were not around for the 100 yard challenge several years back. Hundreds of groups with no problem deciphering. It lasted through all four seasons and across the globe. All deciphered the same.
going to defeat said code. We're talking about shooting groups for load development. Nevetheless, some were not around for the 100 yard challenge several years back. Hundreds of groups with no problem deciphering. It lasted through all four seasons and across the globe. All deciphered the same.i did not watch the video but it looks like your pretty much shooting a ladder test...it does work the bench rest guys have been doing it forever.
the problem with ladders or any load development at distance especially for a new shooter and or new reloader is that most of them do not have the skills to shoot a ladder test...a slight trigger jerk or heart beat and all that info down range is useless.
also an easier way to tell exactly what round went where when your shooting ladders....buy a pack of different colored sharpis and color your bullets...when you shoot through white paper the color shows...if it dont take a Q-tip with a bit of rubbing alcohol and swap around the hole the alcohol will bring out the color.
Well, discussions on forums like this one both complicated and simplified shit for different people. I am not sure it is safe to assume that we all arrive at the same point either.
Through the yrs reading and watching guys develop loads, I have to say, doesn't really matter what distance it is done at for the bulk of the shooting this group may do. The key is to decipher the data that you are gathering and put it to solid use.
I have had many loads developed in under 30 rds that held the life of the barrel. A couple yrs ago, through miscommunication, my smith throated a 6x47 of mine for dtacs, at around 270 rds with no success, I pulled the barrel. I still scratch my head as to what I did wrong. Gave the barrel to a friend who had 2" cut off, and that barrel turned into a very successful dasher.
To again re-state what @Dthomas3523 has said....use modern equipment. Why do some of you guys spend thousands of dollars on bullets/powder/primers/brass yet refuse to actually spend less money on a medical grade scale such as the Autotrickler setup and a modern chronograph like a Labradar or MagnetoSpeedV3. I can go to the 100 yard range and verify that my speeds are as close to a constant that I can...with being able to measure down to the half kernel of the powder I shoot.....let's say 5 rounds....just a verification.
Then I shoot my seating depth tests....two shots at 100 yards...if they aren't touching....don't shoot the third....move on....however...now...I just pick an arbitrary length....use the barrel tuner....and then work backwards to translate the barrel tuning number to a seating depth. reseat some more rounds with an arbor press at the range....dial the barrel tuner back to zero and retest. Last time I went I was where I need to be in about 10 rounds.
Then I travel to the big boy range and shoot some 1000yd groups, 1 mile groups, and farther....below is a pic of a 1000 yard group....notice very little vertical dispersion. The Horizontal is all switching tail winds. There is no need to waste ammo....when modern tools can get you there sooooo quick. By the time some of you get a load developed....your barrel is burned out....and then you start over. My new barrel...runs the exact same load as the last one....a quality custom rifle can do that. This is with a 300PRC in a Tactical config...not a benchrest rifle. Atlas Cal with an Underground Precision ELR Rear Bag...but shooting from a bench.
Then I shoot my seating depth tests....two shots at 100 yards...if they aren't touching....don't shoot the third....move on....however...now...I just pick an arbitrary length....use the barrel tuner....and then work backwards to translate the barrel tuning number to a seating depth. reseat some more rounds with an arbor press at the range....dial the barrel tuner back to zero and retest. Last time I went I was where I need to be in about 10 rounds.
Then I travel to the big boy range and shoot some 1000yd groups, 1 mile groups, and farther....below is a pic of a 1000 yard group....notice very little vertical dispersion. The Horizontal is all switching tail winds. There is no need to waste ammo....when modern tools can get you there sooooo quick. By the time some of you get a load developed....your barrel is burned out....and then you start over. My new barrel...runs the exact same load as the last one....a quality custom rifle can do that. This is with a 300PRC in a Tactical config...not a benchrest rifle. Atlas Cal with an Underground Precision ELR Rear Bag...but shooting from a bench.
The greater the distance to the load development zero, the greater the influence of external, environmental factors. They're already there at 100 and we live with them. They are not negligible, they're simply unavoidable and tolerable. Going out further simply multiplies their effects. What you see at 200yd includes more of the unpredictable, inconsistent, and probably immeasurable environmental factors. In other words, what you're doing with the load is having a smaller percentage on the effects at 200yd.
The forces of physics are always at work regardless of how small. There is no such thing as a zero physical effect,.
Greg
The forces of physics are always at work regardless of how small. There is no such thing as a zero physical effect,.
Greg
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That’s the nice thing about forums, it has ALL KINDS of people with their proven opinions, techniques etc....the OP wanted to know others’ opinions......he has that here but he also has people that don’t “understand” why people choose to do this method or that method, then try and say this or that method is inferior, but in the end you end up done! That, is where the confusion starts/started in this thread.......EVERONE ENDS UP IN THE SAME PLACE, if your happy with the load you produced, great!
Why can’t some have an open mind and just think to themselves that “well that’s # 1,086 for ways to get exactly what I get, but in a different way”. If you choose to shoot at 100 yrds great, 500 yrds great, 1mile awesome, you go!! I test at 100yrds too but for different reasons, point being, some in this thread blew it by bashing one way because it wasn’t their way to do things and decided to keep bashing for no reason but expand egos and give each other pats on the back, fine, say/do what works for you and MOVE ON. I’m not saying 100 yrds don’t work to get things done I’m just giving the OP another option. I’m also shocked that obviously nobody, nobody, has honestly watched the video before trashing the process and the reasoning for it.......2020 strikes again.
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This is probably been the best I've seen yet. Thanks! Definitely points me in the right direction.
I’m very glad that it is and that it gives you another option to choose from!! There’s a lot out there, you just got to sift through the bullshit and do what works for you in your intended purposes. I wish you luck and have a happy new year.....if you don’t mind, update this thread on your findings, love or hate about this process. I’m curious about your unbiased review of it vs what others here have tried push for.
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