Shooting poor groups, Tubb Final Finish and more

[BurnOut]

I am heading out on a prairie dog hunt here in a couple of weeks, and in an effort to be able to shoot a lot of affordable ammo I picked up a used SPS Tactical in .223 (the SPS Tacticals have a 9 twist in .223) from a friend. I dropped it into a B&C Medalist stock that I had sitting around, and scoped it with a Weaver tactical 3-15x50 in a DNZ one piece mount. I also had a Tubb Final Finish kit sitting around that I've been itching to use, and I figured that this would be a great application for it given the number of rounds that I am planning on putting through it at the prairie dog hunt (read: ease of cleaning).

So, fast forward to this past Friday. I go out to the range and get on a 50 yard target because the rifle had only been bore-sighted to this point. I figured that as long as I was going to be doing the Final Finish thing, the 50 yard range would suffice; I just needed to be able to verify that my rounds weren't going over the berm. The instructions for the Final Finish indicate that if the (factory) barrel isn't capable of holding a sub-1.5" group at 100, start with grit/compound #1, and if it IS capable of holding a sub-1.5" group at 100, start with grit/compound #3. So I get the scope roughed in, and go to shoot a group at 50... it seems to be shooting a 1.5"-2" group at 50 yards. This strikes me as abysmal, but what the hell. So, compound #1 it is, right?

Shoot-and-clean, shoot-and clean, all the way through the 50 rounds of the Final Finish kit. The last group I shoot with the compound #5 bullets was a 10 shot group that could be easily covered by a nickel (again, at 50 yards). Looks pretty okay to me (given what my setup and skills are). One more thorough bore cleaning (KG1, KG12, KG2, and KG4), and it's off to the 100 yard line... which is where the wheels came off.

Using Hornady 53gr Superformance ammo, I was ALL OVER the map. As in, 2" 3-shot groups. W...T...F??? Mostly horizontal dispersion, but a bit of vertical as well. I was shooting off of sand bags front and rear. After burning a $20 box of .223 ammo doing this, I was fed up so I packed it in for the day.

While I understand that I'm not Carlos Hathcock and my rifle isn't going to be used by anyone who is interested in winning any sort of national championship, this is just pathetic. Looking back, I have to wonder if the problem wasn't a lack of support/stabilization on the fore end; I was using my right hand on the pistol grip/trigger (ya think??), and my left hand to squeeze the sandbag under the pistol grip for final shot alignment. The stock was pulled securely into my shoulder, and I have previously used this shooting technique to shoot MUCH better groups than I am getting now.

So, what do y'all think... am I just a spastic shooter, or did I lunch my barrel with the Final Finish kit?

 

[bubbala]

that''s a pretty aggressive regiment, i hope you just need to run a few more rounds through it, to foul it a little and maybe burnish the bore.

 

[mydogsmonkey]

so after you cleaned it, you only shot 20 rounds to see if it would shoot?
I think most people on here agree that a bore needs to be a fouled a bit in order to shoot well. I typically see my groups tighten up after 40 rounds or so.

 

[RTH1800]

monkey,
You may be right but most are not getting 2" 3 shot groups with a clean bore.

OP, There is really to little information to diagnose the problem. First, try good ammo and a new shooter. Check to see that all screws are tight. How is the bore on the rifle? Do you know the round count?

RTH

 

[Diablo]

Suggest you slow down, start again, check your base and rings. Have a friend that is a competent shooter try it and see if it's just you, or if your scope/rifle is the source of the problem.

I don't understand why using an abrasive on the bore was considered until trying first to see how well it shoots.

 

[mcc308]

Suggest you slow down, start again, check your base and rings. Have a friend that is a competent shooter try it and see if it's just you, or if your scope/rifle is the source of the problem.

I don't understand why using an abrasive on the bore was considered until trying first to see how well it shoots.

I agree!

 

[BurnOut]

All- I did check the grouping at 50 yards prior to starting with the Tubb bullets. I am hoping that y'all are right, that the bore needs a little "seasoning" in order to tighten up.

I have also been discussing this issue with a friend (who shoots pretty well) who has suggested that perhaps I had the rifle seated too far up on my shoulder. Given that most of the shot dispersion was horizontal in nature, I am leaning towards the barrel not being the problem (if the barrel was the problem, I would think that most of the dispersion would be vertical... right?). The suggestion to re-check the scope mounting bolts is a good one, and I'll do that when I get home (though everything has been treated with blue Loctite).

Any input is appreciated... thanks again, folks.

 

[smax]

My buddy's sps 308 took almost 100 shots without cleaning before it would group under 1.5 moa at 100 yards.

 

[gstaylorg]

I think the most important question is how did the rifle shoot with that ammo before doing anything? If I am reading correctly from your original post, it was shooting ~3-4 MOA groups (1.5"-2" @ 50 yd). That is really not so good, no matter how you slice it. Even though it seemed to loosen up more following the cleaning routine, 3-4 MOA suggests to me that it simply may not like that particular load, regardless of the cleaning procedure. If that is the case, a simple switch to different ammo may be the answer. Perhaps trying something different up to around 69 gr might give better results with that barrel.

Edit - I re-read the original post and it sounds as though the rifle went from ~3-4 MOA (50 yd) to ~2 MOA (100 yd) after cleaning. So it seems as if there was a benefit to the procedure. But I am still left wondering how well it shot that ammo before doing anything. Would it have shot something else well enough that you would have left it alone?

 

[agbm]

Now Tubb does make a throat maintenance system kit which can be used every couple hundred of rounds to keep your throat nice. Final Finish is a great product, I used it in my REM 700p and Rem 700 aac-sd both shoot 1/4 MOA if I due my part!!!!!! I used the David Tubb prepackage loaded ammo with Final Finish bullets and the Final Finish Throat Maintenance system bullets already loaded. While shooting the final finish bullets through your barrel you are not shooting for groups. David Tubb's factory loaded final finish bullets are really loaded light really got no recoil to me chron was about 2200 FPS. All I can say is do not try and shoot groups with final finish or final finish throat maintenance system. Clean between the shots, even though it's optional.

The final finish bullet kit contains 50 bullets 10 of each grit, #1 grit,#2 grit,#3 grit,#4 grit,#5 grit You do not use full power loads 2200 fps will be fine.
Where as the final finish loaded ammo only has 10 bullets of #1,grit and #2 Grit total of 20 rounds
With a Factory barrel start with #1 5-shots then #1 5-shots then #2 5-shots then #2-5 shots then for step #5 you can do 2 shots of regular ammo (you will conditioning the barrel with the last 2 shots taken with factory ammo ) and your finished, unless you ordered the TMS(cleaning between shots is optional)
You do use #5 grit during the kit process. Updated procedure instructions on page 2

 

[BurnOut]

Final Finish

agbm- I followed the Final Finish flow chart located here (please see page 2; I had the bullet kit, not the pre-loaded ammo). I skipped the "mid-compound" cleanings at 5 shot intervals, but DID clean thoroughly between compounds. The rounds were loaded to what the Hornady load manual says should be around 2300-2400 FPS using BLC-2. Crimps were light, so I expect that velocity was below what the manual stated.

The more I think about this (and the more input that I get from y'all), the more convinced I am that it is a PEBTAC (Problem Exists Between Trigger And Chair; those of you in the IT business will be familiar with similar problems) issue. By all rights, the rifle, unless it is just a complete heap, should have been shooting better than the 1.5"-2" groups that I was initially seeing at 50 yards. I have been allowing the groups that I saw during the fire lapping process to color my expectations. In other words, perhaps rather than asking myself why it was shooting so poorly when I did my initial check at 50 yards and at the 100 yard line, I should be asking myself what I was doing differently during the fire lapping process. The only non-me thing I can think of is that the Tubbs bullets are long/heavy while the other rounds were in the 53-55gr range. However, a 9 twist should shoot bullets in that weight range pretty well.

Some of the folks have suggested that I start over... and I think that's a great idea. At this point, I am planning on going back to the range with some fresh ammo and a chrono to see if there are any significant differences in muzzle velocity (I don't expect to find anything earth shattering). I'll also be watching to see if the groups tighten up any as the bore gets a little fouling in it.

 

[Rustybroadhead]

I would explore different bullets.... I had a 22-250 once that would shoot 40gr Vmax's into very small groups. But the factory 55 grain vmax looked more like someone used a shotgun rather than a rifle on the target. Same brand ammo, same bullet just different weight. Other 55 grain ammo shot fine.....

Try a couple of different bullets

 

[Punisher29073]

I have used the Tubbs FF system on 2 rifles and they both did need to be reseasoned after the system to start the groups to shrink. The Tubbs instructions are to shoot all 10 of each of the grit bullets needed, be it all 5 steps or just 3-5. I am still in load development on both of them, but am eager to see my final results.

Ryan

 

[agbm]

agbm- I followed the Final Finish flow chart located here (please see page 2; I had the bullet kit, not the pre-loaded ammo). I skipped the "mid-compound" cleanings at 5 shot intervals, but DID clean thoroughly between compounds. The rounds were loaded to what the Hornady load manual says should be around 2300-2400 FPS using BLC-2. Crimps were light, so I expect that velocity was below what the manual stated.

The more I think about this (and the more input that I get from y'all), the more convinced I am that it is a PEBTAC (Problem Exists Between Trigger And Chair; those of you in the IT business will be familiar with similar problems) issue. By all rights, the rifle, unless it is just a complete heap, should have been shooting better than the 1.5"-2" groups that I was initially seeing at 50 yards. I have been allowing the groups that I saw during the fire lapping process to color my expectations. In other words, perhaps rather than asking myself why it was shooting so poorly when I did my initial check at 50 yards and at the 100 yard line, I should be asking myself what I was doing differently during the fire lapping process. The only non-me thing I can think of is that the Tubbs bullets are long/heavy while the other rounds were in the 53-55gr range. However, a 9 twist should shoot bullets in that weight range pretty well.

Some of the folks have suggested that I start over... and I think that's a great idea. At this point, I am planning on going back to the range with some fresh ammo and a chrono to see if there are any significant differences in muzzle velocity (I don't expect to find anything earth shattering). I'll also be watching to see if the groups tighten up any as the bore gets a little fouling in it.

Many years ago I did my first final finish, I'm trying to find that instruction sheet that was sent out. Page 2 has the new updated procedure's, I knew it had changed. Before you did not use so many bullets I believe.

 

[BurnOut]

Shooting better groups

Update- it helps when you find a load that the rifle likes...



Still not fantastic shooting, but at this point I think I can blame myself (and the wind, a little bit) rather than the rifle. The above 100 yard groups were shot with Fiocchi 50gr V-max (and a pretty warm barrel); it just doesn't like my soft point hand loads or Hornady Superformance 53gr. I just need more trigger time (and perhaps a trigger upgrade) so I can get more consistent.

Prior to shooting these groups with the Fiocchi, I ran probably 30 or so rounds of my hand loads and 20 rounds of Superformance through it, so "seasoning" may have helped as well.

I should also note that after running 75-ish rounds through the gun, the bore came clean in about 10 patches with no brushing.

 

[lancetkenyon]

Quit cleaning the barrel. I go between 200-800 rounds dependent on cartridge. Only when my groups start to open back up do I consider cleaning the bore.

 

[tomme boy]

Between the off center chamber on every Remington made and now you shooting the throat out of it with the Tubb kit. Good luck!

 

[Sweetyzfd]

1 in 9 twist may be a little fast for 53gr. I would try a heavier bullet. Mine likes 65gr game kings and 69gr SMKs

 

[anon]

Frustrated, I used the Final Finish on a PSS. The throat grew by 40 thou.. I have a load with the 50gr vmax and 25gr of IMR4895 that has been good for quite a few cleans on the MR52 at 200. I won't complain.

 

[79jeepcj5]

1 in 9 twist may be a little fast for 53gr. I would try a heavier bullet. Mine likes 65gr game kings and 69gr SMKs

Really? A 1/9 twist should be about perfect for that weight. I've got a 1/7 that'll shoot 55's a little over 1 moa at 100-200 yards. Bulk pack ammo. If I do my part its about 5 moa lol.
Seriously though, a 1/9 should work fine with that length bullet. If not, I'd look at the load, the optics, or the shooter.

Matt

 

[BurnOut]

Quit cleaning the barrel. I go between 200-800 rounds dependent on cartridge. Only when my groups start to open back up do I consider cleaning the bore.

What do you do for corrosion protection? Oil over the carbon/copper?

 

[samnev]

I have a 1:9 twist 223 PSS that shoots best with 52 grain SMK's.

 

[nso123]

What do you do for corrosion protection? Oil over the carbon/copper?

Shoot it and leave it alone. If you are going to store it long term, consider cleaning and oiling. Once you have it fouled, leave it fouled until you see that it starts losing a noticeable amount of accuracy.

 

[lancetkenyon]

What do you do for corrosion protection? Oil over the carbon/copper?

What I do for corrosion control is live in a 0% humidity environment.....central AZ.

Seriously, I have had no issues with corrosion over the years with storing fouled rifles for months at a time. I shoot every rifle I own at least a couple times a year. Some much more than others. Some just a few down the pipe to ensure they would be ready if needed.

 

[LV 426]

Its the superformance ammo. My DPMS shoots Hornady 55gr.v max ammo into 5/8" .
53 gr. Superformance ammo 5 inches @ 100 yards & 3490 to 3500 fps.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

I don't fool with that shit. Shoot the damn thing and stop cleaning it so much. Shooters do more damage to the rifle with aggressive systems like these and aggressive cleaning than they may otherwise do by just shooting the damn thing. A lot of factory Remington's are going to do much better with a good burnishing of copper in the barrel. If the rifle still won't group after shooting it a bunch with a good shooter, then you're likely not going to find the results you're looking for without some barrel/action work.

Also, beware of anyone that claims their factory Remington rifles will shoot 1/4" groups all day long if they do their part after using this system. It's bullshit. Sorry, no other way to put it. Pictures or it did not happen as those claims are not consistent with reality.

 

[Donr13]

I don't fool with that shit. Shoot the damn thing and stop cleaning it so much. Shooters do more damage to the rifle with aggressive systems like these and aggressive cleaning than they may otherwise do by just shooting the damn thing. A lot of factory Remington's are going to do much better with a good burnishing of copper in the barrel. If the rifle still won't group after shooting it a bunch with a good shooter, then you're likely not going to find the results you're looking for without some barrel/action work.

Also, beware of anyone that claims their factory Remington rifles will shoot 1/4" groups all day long if they do their part after using this system. It's bullshit. Sorry, no other way to put it. Pictures or it did not happen as those claims are not consistent with reality.

You don't know what you are talking about. I shoot 1/4'' groups with my factory Remington with both hands tied behind my back. you just need some pretty dang good ammo and its lights out. I don't have any pics today but its true...

 

[Zmechanic]

You have a bit of an uphill battle for you mentally, if you are like me. I went through a similar ordeal, but I was lucky that I was at fault, not the rifle. Once you get fixated and are questioning the gun's precision, all you start to think about is group size, group size, group size. My groups never tightened up until I stopped thinking about how the gun was shooting and started thinking about how I was shooting.

I'd have to put my 0.02 in the start over bucket like many have said. Take everything apart and reassemble with proper torque. Clean the barrel. Take the gun out and shoot some rounds through it to re-foul the barrel and get comfortable. Then switch to good ammo and try to relax.

Also from my experience and everything I've researched/read FGMM 69gr SMK is some of the most consistently good shooting ammo around. Not saying it works 100% all the time, but if there was any ammo that had the highest likelihood of shooting good, IMO it'd be that.

 

[BurnOut]

You have a bit of an uphill battle for you mentally, if you are like me. I went through a similar ordeal, but I was lucky that I was at fault, not the rifle. Once you get fixated and are questioning the gun's precision, all you start to think about is group size, group size, group size. My groups never tightened up until I stopped thinking about how the gun was shooting and started thinking about how I was shooting.

I suspect that you're on to something there... now that I have found a (factory) load that the gun seems to somewhat like, I can concentrate on my shooting. I was considering a trigger upgrade (over the factory X-Mark Pro), but that struck me as a band-aid solution for what I believe is poor shooting. Instead of the trigger, I *did* purchase what I am hoping is a decent bag setup for the rear of the gun in an effort to be able to get the rifle as stable as possible while shooting. The flat/pillow bags that I was using previously were just a PITA.

The plan is that once I get consistent with the factory load, I'll start doing some load development; until I am (more) consistent, I'll have no way of knowing whether or not my loads are consistent.

 

[29aholic]

One thing I would advise, coming from my experience, the big mistake a lot of shooters make is they try to "steer" the rifle to their aiming point vs. adjusting your rests to where the rifle is naturally pointing correctly with out touching the rifle any more than absolutely necessary to pull the trigger.

You might also adjust your scope from your current POI so you can bracket the square on your target with the reticle but the group prints in the middle. It's a lot easier to maintain a consistent aiming point.

 

[majohnson2]

With all the cleaning, you might want to inspect the crown for any damage. Make sure to stay away from brushes, if you must use one use nylon only. After cleaning it can take 15 to 20 rounds before the barrel settles in. That is why when you look at Impact Data book, they have a page to save to save CB along with CCB. My 6.5CM, the first shot after cleaning I know it will be .5 high, .5 right. After 10 rounds it settles in and will be back to 1/4 moa groups.

 

[BurnOut]

One thing I would advise, coming from my experience, the big mistake a lot of shooters make is they try to "steer" the rifle to their aiming point vs. adjusting your rests to where the rifle is naturally pointing correctly with out touching the rifle any more than absolutely necessary to pull the trigger.

Guilty as charged. *hangs head in shame*

I have to admit that I kind of stumbled into this right as I was running out of the ammo that the gun likes.

With all the cleaning, you might want to inspect the crown for any damage.

I've noticed a *tiny* ding on the crown, but I can't tell if it actually intrudes into the bore. Regardless, after I return from the prairie dog hunt (coming up in about a week), I am planning on getting the muzzle threaded and a new crown cut.