Our guys are lacking in that because they don't train enough for your taste, eh?
Advanced Marksmanship Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters
- Thread starter kraigWY
- Start date
Our guys are lacking in that because they don't train enough for your taste, eh?
Our guys are lacking because the military, as a system, caters to the lowest common denominator.
That said, some of the military is not lacking: I see them regularly at Rifles Only. But most of our guys are lacking because the pyramid is steeper than is the amount of real work necessary to be done.
That said, some of the military is not lacking: I see them regularly at Rifles Only. But most of our guys are lacking because the pyramid is steeper than is the amount of real work necessary to be done.
While I agree completely, snipers are generally guys that are willing to climb to the top of the pyramid, and have a whole different kind of drive than your standard enlistee.
same for cops... most cops only use there gun when the qual, 2 to 4x a year... never going to the range, never practicing... most matches ive been to, the cops are the worst shots
this is good and insightful reading guys! I posted this on a forum in my own country and have nearly 7 pages of shit put on me LOL . Still good insight to actual reality for many professional shooters
I'm willing to climb to the top of the pyramid with 50lbs of gear and my rifle hanging off my ass in 110 degree weather and a shitty ever changing crosswind and then shoot someone in the face at 900 yards; if I only get a center mass shot because I didn't have time to accurately calculate for the down angle shot I'm still happy.
This is the difference between military and competition.
Folks are reading....but they aren't understanding! The ORIGINAL POST fully stated that 'all the other skills' DID NOT come into play during the testing phase! Only shooting.....and accuracy assessment was the Order of the Day!! It all goes back to TRIGGER TIME!!
When I was in STA, waaay back in the early to mid 90's, I don't recall shooting live rounds all that much. Most of our training was patrolling, stalking, recon, tracking etc. Missions with blanks etc. I wish we had shot more...not sure why we didn't, ammo/budget issues I reckon. A lot of the guys in the plt were there because it was "cool" to be a sniper. Not many were really that interested in guns. I still keep in touch with a lot of them and maybe 10% still shoot.
We weren't training much beyond being able to hit a man sized target to 1,000 yards with the 40A1's, besides the occasional color-dot drills, or shooting vehicles with the SASR's at 29-Stumps. Hell, we didn't have ballistics calculators back then, or variable power scopes, nor bipods, anything like that...we used cardboard tp tubes for sunshades! We loved shooting as much as we could, but we had no control over how much we could. Several of us did have personal weapons and did get out to shoot on our own, but it was by no means enough, nor were we in the majority within the platoon.
Op-tempo was high too. After Somalia, we got redeployed to Haiti (got some trigger time in Vieques), then went to Cuba, then a CAX (some shooting, but mostly FAC stuff), then Oki, Korea, Japan. We did shoot in Japan, a few days. I'd say though that back then the majority of our training focused on all the other sniper/recon (STA) aspects and not as much as one would think on actual shooting. Though we could shoot!
What weapon systems were used between the two groups? I know it's the Indian not the arrow, but shit, if Camp Perry shooters are driving some high-dollar custom rigs vs. military issue rifles.....
We weren't training much beyond being able to hit a man sized target to 1,000 yards with the 40A1's, besides the occasional color-dot drills, or shooting vehicles with the SASR's at 29-Stumps. Hell, we didn't have ballistics calculators back then, or variable power scopes, nor bipods, anything like that...we used cardboard tp tubes for sunshades! We loved shooting as much as we could, but we had no control over how much we could. Several of us did have personal weapons and did get out to shoot on our own, but it was by no means enough, nor were we in the majority within the platoon.
Op-tempo was high too. After Somalia, we got redeployed to Haiti (got some trigger time in Vieques), then went to Cuba, then a CAX (some shooting, but mostly FAC stuff), then Oki, Korea, Japan. We did shoot in Japan, a few days. I'd say though that back then the majority of our training focused on all the other sniper/recon (STA) aspects and not as much as one would think on actual shooting. Though we could shoot!
What weapon systems were used between the two groups? I know it's the Indian not the arrow, but shit, if Camp Perry shooters are driving some high-dollar custom rigs vs. military issue rifles.....
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Ref. Perry, separate the NRA from the CMP. The CMP requires Service Rifle/Pistols. Different ball game.
When you think of Distinguished Shooters, you're talking about Service Rifles. (also contrary to what some have said, there are no Sighters in EIC Matches).
As of today (according to the CMP website), there have only been 7715 Distinguished Rifle Shooters. Sounds like a lot until you figure the program stated in 1884.
Well so far I have seen many excusses but the thread was about accuracy and yet equipment has been mentioned It does'nt matter how well I can shoot I still hold Snipers in high regard and yes sportting shooter have better gear because they buy it Snipers could buy it too, But have people forgotten that Kestrels and Recons were first issued to the military yet I have only just started using this stuff,
Yes I have had to walk/run 40 miles in 24hrs and climb mountains but when it came to shooting I would practice 7 hours a day 3 or 4 days a week and I would make my targets as difficult as possible and shoot up to 500 rounds a day.
I feel sorry for the guys who go to SS School because they put their heart and soul into it and then get F'all range time, OK there are some other things they need to learn but why the hell after schools out arnt they given a free reign at the range seeing as it was that That drove them to put their names down for it,,,,I understand that they need to learn all the other stuff but once they know it its not one of them things that needs practice Like their shooting
Long Range hunters fill the gap between snipers and Comp shooters but I dont believe that when bullets start flying that Comp shooters would loose the plot,
I sure hope the Brass wake up and read those reports and change this issue because sending these guys out in the field without range time is like sending them out with Blanks. I wonder if they would send their Sons out without dotting the Is and crossing the Ts.
john
All pride to the side, as a whole we have some very accomplished shooters both serving the country and on the ranges. Both carry discipline and dedication to be the best that we can be yet expect nothing back in return. As a whole we both carry our weight and our desires.
Only the treehuggers and the like gain when we start to pick apart the system.
No matter what side you stand at there are always the wantabees, that’s the norm, they just have the same goals yet are trying to get to the next level just takes longer and some it never will.
Cheers
Only the treehuggers and the like gain when we start to pick apart the system.
No matter what side you stand at there are always the wantabees, that’s the norm, they just have the same goals yet are trying to get to the next level just takes longer and some it never will.
Cheers
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Being a wannabe does not stop when one gets the job or occupies the position.
The Wannabees dont realise that anyone or mostly anyone can learn to shoot and their over active minds think that is a game and they are to lazy to put in the time, and that kind of commitment means they would have to be honest with them selves,
Some Nuts are Tough to Crack,
Blessin's John
The point of my starting this post was Marksmanship, not the other aspects of Scouting/recon. If you can't shoot, you're just a scout.
The limiting factor of Marksmanship is the guy pulling the trigger. This became apparent to me this last week when I was shooting the CMP Wyoming Games in Cody. I've used the excuse in the past, that since I got my DR Badge, I reached my goal and don't have to take it serious any more. I don't have to worry about keeping my spot on the rifle team, I don't have to worry about keeping my coaching job............I'm just going to shoot for fun.
This flawed thinking came to a head at Cody. I discovered my 70 year old rifle (Garand) still shoots quite well............while slung up, shooting on my belly. But when I stood up on my hind legs it was a different matter, I fell on my face.
It's not the rifle's fault, its mine, I am too friggin lazy to put in the work needed to shoot. I can't blame in on lack of ammo, lack of funds, I can only blame it on me, because we all know, there is no better "offhand" practice then dry firing. I don't need to drive to the range, I don't need to pack up my shooting gear, I just need to get off my butt, find me a mark to aim at, and snap in.
So as I said, it boils down to "want to", if you have the desire you can. As Gary Anderson said, "there are no hopeless shooters". I'll add to that, "but their are lazy shooters" and of the latter class, I am king.
No one expected an old man to with a shot out 70 year old rifle to win. As I look at the over all scores I'm a long ways from the bottom. But I know my off hand scores kept me farther down the list then I should have been,...............Why, because I'm too lazy to put in the time to shoot as good as that old rifle is capable of.
Its the same with competitive shooting and sniper's, the limiting factor is the guy pulling the trigger, and his (my) desire to improve, or lack thereof.
The limiting factor of Marksmanship is the guy pulling the trigger. This became apparent to me this last week when I was shooting the CMP Wyoming Games in Cody. I've used the excuse in the past, that since I got my DR Badge, I reached my goal and don't have to take it serious any more. I don't have to worry about keeping my spot on the rifle team, I don't have to worry about keeping my coaching job............I'm just going to shoot for fun.
This flawed thinking came to a head at Cody. I discovered my 70 year old rifle (Garand) still shoots quite well............while slung up, shooting on my belly. But when I stood up on my hind legs it was a different matter, I fell on my face.
It's not the rifle's fault, its mine, I am too friggin lazy to put in the work needed to shoot. I can't blame in on lack of ammo, lack of funds, I can only blame it on me, because we all know, there is no better "offhand" practice then dry firing. I don't need to drive to the range, I don't need to pack up my shooting gear, I just need to get off my butt, find me a mark to aim at, and snap in.
So as I said, it boils down to "want to", if you have the desire you can. As Gary Anderson said, "there are no hopeless shooters". I'll add to that, "but their are lazy shooters" and of the latter class, I am king.
No one expected an old man to with a shot out 70 year old rifle to win. As I look at the over all scores I'm a long ways from the bottom. But I know my off hand scores kept me farther down the list then I should have been,...............Why, because I'm too lazy to put in the time to shoot as good as that old rifle is capable of.
Its the same with competitive shooting and sniper's, the limiting factor is the guy pulling the trigger, and his (my) desire to improve, or lack thereof.
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Couple weeks back a newly acquired acquaintance of mine told me he was a "scout/observer" back when he was in the USMC. I asked if he was also a sniper, and he acted a little nervouse but said "no, a scout/observer" or maybe a scout/forward observer. I then asked if he shot long range much and he again acted nervouse and said "no, not really". He is about 35 or 40 years old, and I am still wondering if he was just being modest/humble or what. When I asked his MOS thinking numerical, he just said scout/observer. Any clues? Seems like a good guy...
He is an 0861, Fire Support Man (formal MOS name). Most call a Marine with this MOS a "Scout/Observer." Ask your buddy if he's an 0861, if he still gets all nervous he's probably full of shit.
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Thank you, I will and I think you hit it. He did mention something about calling in fire support and marking targets... I believe he is ligit.
Hey, whatever makes you spoiled-ass team shooters feel better about yourselves... THAT is what I want.
Of course you can shoot. You're on the shooting team. To think that you cannot shoot is moronic. Problem is you can't CRAWL and SHOOT and then CRAWL again. Or at least it's not very becoming of a team shooter.
And the reason snipers don't make team shooters is obvious; the absolute mind-blowing boredom of shooting at a paper target all day and then staring up and listening for a rifle crack so you can pull and mark a target. That's the OTHER half of the day. Between runs to the chow hall, that is...
Welcome to "Sniper's Hide". Not "Freshly-Mowed Firing Position".
;-]]
Of course you can shoot. You're on the shooting team. To think that you cannot shoot is moronic. Problem is you can't CRAWL and SHOOT and then CRAWL again. Or at least it's not very becoming of a team shooter.
And the reason snipers don't make team shooters is obvious; the absolute mind-blowing boredom of shooting at a paper target all day and then staring up and listening for a rifle crack so you can pull and mark a target. That's the OTHER half of the day. Between runs to the chow hall, that is...
Welcome to "Sniper's Hide". Not "Freshly-Mowed Firing Position".
;-]]
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^^^ He does have a point. When shooting against guys from the AMU, and not doing all that great, I have thought more than once thought "you're a nice and all, and you can really shoot, but I could beat the living snot out of you with one hand tied behind my back". However, my grandfather (WWII vet) used to tell me stories about about something his father (WWI vet) told him... the Brits had a few older guys in their ranks who brought their own rifles. When engagements were at long range these guys would step up and clean the Jerry's clocks until things got a little more personal, the the regulars would take over. I think they were game keepers who had to be able to shoot as part of what they did for a living.
Military snipers marksmanship skills revolver around shooting at man sized targets up to 800m (1000m shooter dependant). When we were going through school we were told to NEVER go for a head shot unless that was the only part available to the rifle. Body shots, center mass. 40"x29.5" targets.
Law Enforcement snipers and competition shooters have a different role. They are required to hit a much smaller target every time whether it be for more points or to hit a guy in the head who is hiding behind a hostage (or the better one of shooting weapons out of their hands).
As a military sniper I would never try to go up against a completion shooter because I didn't get enough training to be that precise. Two totally different mindsets and training. MOA are still important, but as long as the target goes down it doesn't make one bit of difference whether or not I hit them dead center or in the heart.
Law Enforcement snipers and competition shooters have a different role. They are required to hit a much smaller target every time whether it be for more points or to hit a guy in the head who is hiding behind a hostage (or the better one of shooting weapons out of their hands).
As a military sniper I would never try to go up against a completion shooter because I didn't get enough training to be that precise. Two totally different mindsets and training. MOA are still important, but as long as the target goes down it doesn't make one bit of difference whether or not I hit them dead center or in the heart.
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Life is differant for you Guys and alot tougher to say the leased, This topic is not a Put Down of a Snipers skills because 99.9%rrr of people here came here because of the Admiration of A Snipers Skills, Yes I can shoot and better than most but not as Good as Some But I would never put myself in the same League as A Sniper because it is not Respectful thing to do, and no matter what I will always Resect Them and There Choosen Craft,
Blessins John
I will tell you I got to work with both the AMU and my sniper section and the AMU are a bunch of cocky a*******. My unit sent all of the snipers and SDMs so a 2 week course run by the AMU before our deployment and they thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. They treated everyone like idiots until me and my spotter went up to shoot. They asked us why were were doing stuff the way we were and we were like "ummmm because we are snipers?" Then they shut their mouths and let us work.
Well there ya Go, that says it all,
I love A Happy ending like that, Just wish I was there to see it WYG Mate.
Blessins John
Many years ago, (shortly after we invaded Iraq) when I attended a tactical match at Badlands there were a number of active duty military people at the match. It was pretty easy to tell because they had various patches and unit designators on their clothing or equipment.
I know very little about military training or deployment because at the time I got out of high school (1976) Viet Nam was still fresh and going in the military was considered one step above going to prison.
Long story short, I was sitting beside this guy during some down time who told me he was a Marine Scout/Sniper and we got to talking. He was shooting one of the standard issue well used bolt rifles with whatever optics were issued at the time and using this ammo right out of the paper packets. I asked him how accurate the rig he was shooting would be under ideal conditions.
His paraphrased answer was "I can hit a man sized target at 6 or 7 hundred yards most of the time as long as I get a few seconds to get solid and he gives me a clear shot. If I miss him he knows he has been shot at and he hides in a quiet spot to clean the crap out of his pants. I don't care about laying down and taking a box full of careful shots on paper unless I am verifying zero so I really don't have any idea how well it shoots. How well does your rifle shoot when somebody is shooting at you or lobbing ordinance into your position?"
Since then, that has summed up the difference in my mind.
Target shooting and military sniper, two different worlds.
I might win a contest in my world but he is a force to be reckoned with in his world.
I know very little about military training or deployment because at the time I got out of high school (1976) Viet Nam was still fresh and going in the military was considered one step above going to prison.
Long story short, I was sitting beside this guy during some down time who told me he was a Marine Scout/Sniper and we got to talking. He was shooting one of the standard issue well used bolt rifles with whatever optics were issued at the time and using this ammo right out of the paper packets. I asked him how accurate the rig he was shooting would be under ideal conditions.
His paraphrased answer was "I can hit a man sized target at 6 or 7 hundred yards most of the time as long as I get a few seconds to get solid and he gives me a clear shot. If I miss him he knows he has been shot at and he hides in a quiet spot to clean the crap out of his pants. I don't care about laying down and taking a box full of careful shots on paper unless I am verifying zero so I really don't have any idea how well it shoots. How well does your rifle shoot when somebody is shooting at you or lobbing ordinance into your position?"
Since then, that has summed up the difference in my mind.
Target shooting and military sniper, two different worlds.
I might win a contest in my world but he is a force to be reckoned with in his world.
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I like his matter of fact view on life, Give a Man like that a Sub Moa rig and he'd sew buttons on a shirt with it,
John
John
I would like to see the bench competition shooters attend a stress shoot competition and see how their scores stack up with military snipers. I know this topic is only about the shooting aspect, but it would be interesting to see how they react to the stress levels required of the military snipers.
I forget the guys name, but a SSG (now SFC IIRC) in the Army made a ridiculous shot in Iraq years ago. He cranked his elevation to the top and still had to aim well outside his field of view and hit the guy dead center. He said he only made that shot because there was a platoon getting scuffed up and he felt he needed to help out, even though he was (I believe) a mile away. Turns out the guy he killed had killed one of his buddies, so I suppose that's some gratification for him.
I forget the guys name, but a SSG (now SFC IIRC) in the Army made a ridiculous shot in Iraq years ago. He cranked his elevation to the top and still had to aim well outside his field of view and hit the guy dead center. He said he only made that shot because there was a platoon getting scuffed up and he felt he needed to help out, even though he was (I believe) a mile away. Turns out the guy he killed had killed one of his buddies, so I suppose that's some gratification for him.
Yeah, Im in I'd love to go and do that, Whoops I'm Dreaming again,
John
John
omg hahahaha
Calling BULLSHIT right here. Sorry.
I'm still in Alaska, you AINT.
Natives are the sorriest of hunters and sorriest of shooters. You may have had a cultural experience while up here, but you failed to recognize shooting talent. A native with an atlatl is not anything more than a hunter going ten percent and getting lucky by feeding the village for a week.
Please don't try to tie the marksmanship programs with anything resembling native "marksmanship".
First and foremost I would just like to thank all those past and present that have put their life on the line to protect our freedom. You have made some huge personal sacrifices to preserve the freedom of our Country! Thank you!!!!!
My humble opinion is the same as posted above, "apples to oranges"
My humble opinion is the same as posted above, "apples to oranges"
I was just saying that it would be nice to see how the scores stack up when the bench shooters have to get up and rely on their ability to handle stress while having to deal with shooting like the modern sniper would have to. Some may do well, but I would bet several wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. So I think it has to do with the environment as well as the skill set.
Alaska Natives are no different then anyone else. There are Good shooters and there are bad Shooters. Judging Alaska Natives from Anchorage is a bit different then judging them from the villages on the Bering Sea.
Back when I was running the AK NG Marksmanship Program (prior to '92) the military had two types of competition. Composite, where we used Match M14s in the normal High Power competitions. Then we had Combat, using arms room weapons shooting KD ranges from 100-400 yards. Composite teams were made up of people from across the state regardless of unit, Army/Air National Guard. Combat matches were unit affairs, or all the members had to come from one Battalion or Separate Company. During the period we started shooting the WP Wilson Matches, Army Area Matches and Later the MAC Regions matches (after the army stopped the army area of FORCOM matches) The Alaska unit that dominated the state was the 1/297th Inf. or the Battalion based out of Nome.
Each year I was required to hold state competitions to pick the unit that would represent the state in outside matches. The winning BN would shoot combat, the high individuals not in that unit were then invited to try out for the State Composite team.
Again the 1st BN dominated the Combat competitions in Alaska, over the Battalions in Anchorage and South East, in Rifle and Machine Guns, HHC 207 IN Grp (including the Abn LT Recon Detachement and Avn Det normally dominated the combat pistol phase.
I'm not sure how the units are set up now, but prior to my retirement there were three Native BNs, 1st out of Nome, 2nd out of Bethel, and 3rd out of Kotz. 5th was in Anchorage, and the 4th (later called the 6th when it became a round out BN for the 6th ID,) was out of SE Alaska.
As too Sniping. I ran the sniper programs for the Alaska NG, and the 172 In Bde (RA out of Ft Rihardson). The Natives, again from the 1st BN were normally the top shooters in my classes. Also the natives were way above the rest in field craft.
I've been out hunting with these guys. Its no easy trick shooting seals from a small boat bobbing around in the choppy waters of the Bering Sea. All you get is head shots, if you wound a seal it sinks, you don't get it. Seals are critical to the lively hood of these people. The oil from seals is used for lamps, and to dip dried meat and fish to make them eatable. Not to mention the skins for boots and cloths. These people didn't survive all this time by being the sloppy hunters you indicate.
Don't sell those natives short, as I said, as with any other race there are good shooters and there are bad shooters. The real difference is the access to ammo. Unless the Natives had access to Guard ammo (which I helped in anyway I could, sometimes legal, sometimes not) they had to buy it at rather high cost, much higher then what you pay in Anchorage. Plus there are few jobs in the villages allowing these guys to pay for practice ammo.
I find it hard to believe that since I left Alaska in 1994 that all these natives stop being able to shoot. They must be all starving to death now.
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Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters
No different from anyone else?! In the Arctic the Inuit were given old RCMP Enfield rifles. There was a cultural issue with the training: If you moved too fast, or talked too quickly, the students would either think that there was some sort of emergency or that the instructor was deranged.
I had a chuckle at that.
No different from anyone else?! In the Arctic the Inuit were given old RCMP Enfield rifles. There was a cultural issue with the training: If you moved too fast, or talked too quickly, the students would either think that there was some sort of emergency or that the instructor was deranged.
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Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters
I wasn't part of Shadow Team, but 'sniping ' ain't what it used to be.
The environment at the OP hotel in Ramadi in 2006 was indeed bench shooting: In shorts and flip-flops, with free coffee and a window air conditioner.
I wasn't part of Shadow Team, but 'sniping ' ain't what it used to be.
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That is true with any group of people you're training. Its the instructor's responsibility to understand the culture difference and adjust his training accordingly.
A good example. I was trying to instruct Natives in Patrol Orders (op orders, warning orders, patrol planning 'n such). They had no idea what I was trying to convey.
So I had them break up in groups with a boat captain (senior individual in a hunting party) and write down all they go through in planning a whale hunt. Including planning, supplies, actions, etc.
When they did this, I took their written plans and compared them to the Patrol Orders I was tying to get them to understand. They were basically the same. After that, they had no problem understand patrol orders.
The biggest problem with people trying to instruct natives is the superior attitude we present. "I'm better then you, I can shoot better then you" etc. You get over that attitude you wont have any problems conducting the class.
That's the same for any group of people.
KRAIG! Ouch! I thought we had a good (online) relationship going, the Recon hit was a low blow... but you might be right as it took me getting into service rifle comps to score in the high 280's and low 290's on the range before that 240 was my best if my memory isn't failing me.
Also my understanding of knowing, working with, and going through MC DM course is that the purpose of a sniper is not to hit the 'X' ring its to get the objective out of the fight if that's only taking out his arm, so be it he can't hold a rifle anymore. When I went through the DM course we spent more time running observation and call for fire exercises than any other thing, other than PT obviously.
Also my understanding of knowing, working with, and going through MC DM course is that the purpose of a sniper is not to hit the 'X' ring its to get the objective out of the fight if that's only taking out his arm, so be it he can't hold a rifle anymore. When I went through the DM course we spent more time running observation and call for fire exercises than any other thing, other than PT obviously.
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Yep,thats right, you have to coach differant folks a differant way because our GO TO Culture is totally Alien to people who Live by the Seasons and have never been to WalMart or McDonalds and Along with that Life style comes 10,000 years of survival where we would Die within Days.
And I still get mad when my internet drops out or the Power grid goes down, Yet these people just carry on regardless. I might know a bunch of stuff but its useless in their world.
Blessin's John
A GOOD sniper will do what he has to to complete his mission, to include training his subordinates and his replacement. Knowledge is power and useless unless shared.
You either have the drive and desire to be a champion or you don't.
"I tried" goes so far. "Champions go home and f@ck the Homecoming Queen."
A diploma on the wall doesn't mean you've kept up with it or you were driven to succeed and excel.
These guys are just a few who have proven, undisputed records both on the KD range and in combat.
Distinguished Rifleman and Wimbledon Champion:
Multiple-year champions, Fort Benning International Sniper Competition (Distinguished Riflemen and President's Hundred -- note the 3rd Ranger Battalion scrolls):
USAMU pistol shooters as Fort Benning International Sniper Champions:
SFC Lance DeMent, Triple Distinguished, Olympian, President's Match Champion, former 2nd Ranger Battalion SOTIC sniper:
The late MSG Jared Van Aalst, former 3rd Ranger Battalion Sniper Platoon Sergeant, Double Distinguished, US Army Champion, former NCOIC US Army Sniper School, Delta Operator:
The late SFC Tung Nguyen, Distinguished Pistol Shot, JSOC Pistol Champion, US Army Long Range Champion (Sniper rifle):
I remember with pride sitting in the back of a room during a mission brief when I overheard a couple of the new snipers whispering about a few of the guys in the photos above -- "Man, those guys are some KILLING Muldoons."
All depends on the perspective from where you're sitting.
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A GOOD sniper will do what he has to to complete his mission, to include training his subordinates and his replacement. Knowledge is power and useless unless shared.
You either have the drive and desire to be a champion or you don't.
"I tried" goes so far. "Champions go home and f@ck the Homecoming Queen."
A diploma on the wall doesn't mean you've kept up with it or you were driven to succeed and excel.
These guys are just a few who have proven, undisputed records both on the KD range and in combat.
Distinguished Rifleman and Wimbledon Champion:
Multiple-year champions, Fort Benning International Sniper Competition (Distinguished Riflemen and President's Hundred -- note the 3rd Ranger Battalion scrolls):
USAMU pistol shooters as Fort Benning International Sniper Champions:
SFC Lance DeMent, Triple Distinguished, Olympian, President's Match Champion, former 2nd Ranger Battalion SOTIC sniper:
The late MSG Jared Van Aalst, former 3rd Ranger Battalion Sniper Platoon Sergeant, Double Distinguished, US Army Champion, former NCOIC US Army Sniper School, Delta Operator:
The late SFC Tung Nguyen, Distinguished Pistol Shot, JSOC Pistol Champion, US Army Long Range Champion (Sniper rifle):
I remember with pride sitting in the back of a room during a mission brief when I overheard a couple of the new snipers whispering about a few of the guys in the photos above -- "Man, those guys are some KILLING Muldoons."
All depends on the perspective from where you're sitting.
Yep they are Elite Gentlemen Indeed,
I guess there are three types of Snipers No 1 these GentleMen here and those who are happy to get by doing it just as a job and theres those Who do it extremely well and make time to Hoane their craft,
Just Like good Cop, Bad Cop and A Totally Dedicated Cop, Seems to me that there are three types of everything and I dont think that we really have looked at it this deep before.
John
Shooting competitively and excelling doesn't take away from your primary job. If your primary job is sniping it can only help and enhance your skills.
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Just to give you an idea, as of this date, there are 7715 distinguished rifle badges won. Sounds like a lot until you consider the program started in 1884.
CMP Club & Competition Tracker | Distinguished Shooters
CMP Club & Competition Tracker | Distinguished Shooters
I live less than 3 miles from my PD range. I would go there and shoot multiple times a week if I could. Problem is, I am only allowed to go there when supervised by a "qualified" range instructor, none of whom are snipers.. I asked if I could send myself to instructor school to be able to shoot on my own time..... nope.
To say barriers sometimes exist would be an understatement.
And before I get any "where there is a will there is a way" bullshit I can say I spend 5-7k of my money every year on training/gear. I work hundreds of hours of OT to pay for it. With all that, I am still nowhere as good as I would like to be.
To say barriers sometimes exist would be an understatement.
And before I get any "where there is a will there is a way" bullshit I can say I spend 5-7k of my money every year on training/gear. I work hundreds of hours of OT to pay for it. With all that, I am still nowhere as good as I would like to be.
I completely agree. When I graduated sniper school I got back and no one gave two s***s. Instead of going into our battalion's sniper section, we were all pushed to the line companies because the section didn't want 'outsiders' (they were just mad because only a couple of guys from their section passed).
So I continued as an E5 rifle team leader for the next 3 months. No long gun range time, no TD lanes, no nothing. They couldn't care less that they had valuable new assets to their platoon for the upcoming deployment to Afghanistan. We finally got some EBRs in and they gave us those because the sniper section didn't want to give up any of their multiple SWS they had collecting dust.
Long story short, the platoon finally wheeled and sealed and got us ONE m24. The qualified guys got together and tried to make a mini section within the platoon, but they only used us for scouting/observation. Until SHTF and then they would acknowledge our abilities.
See, this is all wrong you should not be paying for training and equipment that is part of your job, Tank Drivers dont have to buy Tracks and equipment that the Tanks need and Pilots dont either, whats next are they going to ask you to pay for the Gas for the Patrol Car,???
I wish you luck lets hope they make some changes.
john
You know that Wisconsin has some of the best barrel makers and long-range shooters in the nation, correct?
2013 Wisconsin and 10-state calendars:
Wisconsin Rifle & Pistol Assn, Highpower Rifle Page
http://www.illinoishighpower.org/10-state_schedule/2013 10 State, 2013-03-12.pdf
200 yard Any Rifle/Any Sight is almost designed for cops.
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I can comment from local situation as we do have world class shooters and those also employed in the army and when guys "who shoot for money
" come to our competitions they usually perform very poorly up to a point of disgrace - you have guys just starting to shoot do better with proper coaching.
I know requirements are different but how the fuck can one be great hunter of men and the terror of the grunts but fails so miserably in hitting those pesky little circles from mowed lawn and all the time no one shooting back.
If one checks scores from your competitions a lot of matches are won by USAMU and marines, international competitions also won by members of armed forces etc.. so either situation in US is different and things in this thread a bit exaggerated or there is a universal problem with military and its illogical organization and knowledge transfer.
" come to our competitions they usually perform very poorly up to a point of disgrace - you have guys just starting to shoot do better with proper coaching.I know requirements are different but how the fuck can one be great hunter of men and the terror of the grunts but fails so miserably in hitting those pesky little circles from mowed lawn and all the time no one shooting back.
If one checks scores from your competitions a lot of matches are won by USAMU and marines, international competitions also won by members of armed forces etc.. so either situation in US is different and things in this thread a bit exaggerated or there is a universal problem with military and its illogical organization and knowledge transfer.
Sinister, seriously thanks for the links. I wasn't commenting in my particular situation as much as trying to give some insight to organizations that not only fail to support guys, but outright obstruct their attempts to improve. I was once at a course made up of cops entirely there on their own dime. One guy stood up at the intro and asked that nobody remember he was there because he feared being disciplined by his agency for attending non sanctioned training.
Sharac, there are many, many sniper competitions in Europe and Scandinavia where hobby guys are allowed to shoot against military and police guys. Sometimes it is very enlightening to see why some guys do better than others. Sometimes pride gets in the way.
The United States Marine Corps prides itself on being a service of riflemen. The beginning of their journey (over a hundred years ago) to that perceived reputation began when the Commandant of the Marine Corps learned of their showing against the National Guard at our national matches.
In 1901 in their first matches they came in 6th behind the District of Columbia, New York, Canada, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, and ahead of Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Rhode Island, and Ohio.
The Secretary of the Navy's Report to Congress described many of the problems and reasons for their poor showing, but then (as today) the maximum effective range for an excuse is 0 meters.
The United States Marine Corps prides itself on being a service of riflemen. The beginning of their journey (over a hundred years ago) to that perceived reputation began when the Commandant of the Marine Corps learned of their showing against the National Guard at our national matches.
In 1901 in their first matches they came in 6th behind the District of Columbia, New York, Canada, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey, and ahead of Massachusetts, Maine, Maryland, Rhode Island, and Ohio.
The Secretary of the Navy's Report to Congress described many of the problems and reasons for their poor showing, but then (as today) the maximum effective range for an excuse is 0 meters.
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