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Advanced Marksmanship shooting through windshields...

huntinggamo

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 14, 2010
183
5
35
Northern Colorado, United States
i just found a source for free windshields and thought i would mention it and give some ideas for some training. as many may know taking a shot through a windshield or any glass for that mater presents a unique set of challenges. it is something that i believe should be practiced by any shooter that may be presented with this shot in a real life scenario. (this includes handgun shooters like patrol officer) the factors that should be considered when taking a shot of this nature are as fallows:

Angle of the windshield, sweep from bottom to top.

angle of the windshield, any angle from the side and not directly from the front of the vehicle.

distance from the windshield surface to the target.

bullet design and how well it performs after penetrating the glass.

and last but not least collateral damage to non-targets within the vehicle from glass and bullet fragmentation.

(if i forgot something please feel free to chime in)

if this is a scenario you intend to practice go to your local windshield company and most will be more than willing to give you as many cracked car windshields as you need.
set up your range in a responsible manner, when i did this i built a stand to hold the windshield in place at the correct angle out of 2x4's and placed a tarp under the windshield and stapled it up the back side of my stand to catch as much glass a possible.
when i built my stand it somewhat resembled the area of the car that ran from the back side of the hood, up the a-pillar, and back to the b-pillar of the vehicle and down. this left me enough room to place my target where the driver and passenger would be located and the tarp or cardboard backer behind them showed what the fragments were doing.
you can change up the up and down angle of the windshield by shimming the front or back of the stand.
now go out and see what your bullets do when impacting glass, change up all the angles and hopefully learn and prepare for the shot you hope you will never have to take....
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Don't forget the back glass also.

From PU Trucks/SUVs to Camaros,the degree of the angles can be even more exteme than the front glass.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Glass that has been removed will not respond the same as glass still in place. While it's close it's still not the same.

If you are papered,... some salvage yards will allow you access before they have them crushed.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: harley_jeff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2012 and future model year vehicles are to have laminated or "windshield" glass throughout the car. </div></div>

Thats an interesting fact. that'll be a pain in the arsh for extrication in some cases.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VjjR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: harley_jeff</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2012 and future model year vehicles are to have laminated or "windshield" glass throughout the car. </div></div>

Thats an interesting fact. that'll be a pain in the arsh for extrication in some cases. </div></div>

Some vehicles have sported lami side glass for a while, 2006 dodge truck for instance.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Where did you get that info? Some vehicles have laminated rear door glasses now but I haven't heard of all automotive glass being laminated.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

How does laminated glass on a production line vehicle affect the bullet. Is there any data or videos out there.

If it is a significant issue with performance, is there a list of vehicles that have laminated windows.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

I beleive all schools that cater to LE types have shot windshields.

Some cop friends of mine shot up some junker cars to include pistol ammo through doors and they found what works well through windshields sort of hit and miss.

It was several years ago and I cant recall everything, seems TAP was great in some rifles and sucked out of others. 260 did much better overall than 308.

I want to say SMK and Amax did ok as long as the shooter angle wasnt too great.

PM LL and ask, I'm sure they have done extensive glass shooting.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joe1/75th</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where did you get that info? Some vehicles have laminated rear door glasses now but I haven't heard of all automotive glass being laminated.</div></div>



ever hear of safety glass......
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Some vehicles are required to have safety glass, that glass that shatters into a bazillion little pieces, in order for rescue teams to have quick entry.

Its been awhile since I heard the speil but passenger buses, school buses and the like have special windows of safety glass.

I cant imagine what improvement laminated glass all the way round would be.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

I must have misunderstood. I have shot through safety glass with various ammo. Is safety glass what they mean by laminated?
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

notquiteright said:
Some vehicles are required to have safety glass, that glass that shatters into a bazillion little pieces, in order for rescue teams to have quick entry.

I think the real reason for safety glass is so you don't have shards of glass flying into the passengers. Safety glass that does not break during a crash is much harder to break than regular window glass.

The little square fragments are not near as sharp as the glass splinters that would be propelled at high velocity during impact. Most of the time, they hold together better and then crumble
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alt6grunt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some vehicles are required to have safety glass, that glass that shatters into a bazillion little pieces, in order for rescue teams to have quick entry.</div></div>

I think the real reason for safety glass is so you don't have shards of glass flying into the passengers. Safety glass that does not break during a crash is much harder to break than regular window glass.

The little square fragments are not near as sharp as the glass splinters that would be propelled at high velocity during impact. Most of the time, they hold together better and then crumble </div></div>

That's exactly right, tempered glass is designed/used to minimize injury in a wreck exactly how you described. Being easy to bust out and gain entry by rescue teams is a side benifit, but not the purpose...I always carried an automatic center punch in my turn out gear to pop side glass.

With the proper rescue tool, a special hand saw, laminated glass isn't all that difficult to get through either. Laminated glass all around the vehicle really wouldn't make any difference to rescue efforts as busting out glass is only done when the situation is grave, time is severely limited, and the JAWS ain't there yet.......
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

I've wanted to build a similar setup for our range I think it would be a good experience just to see how not only the 308 performs but the 223 and other handgun rounds perform through glass.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Have been through a couple of shooting through glass courses. One thing I picked up was to put a large cardboard backer about 3 feet behind your target. It will pick up fragments of jacket and glass that miss a smaller target (we used mannequin heads). Also shows keyholing if the bullet is tumbling after striking the glass. Really enlightening how different bullets react to striking the glass.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Some post mention safety glass while others mention laminated. Are these referring to the same thing, if not what is the difference.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

I believe ASA put out a glass video a few years ago. Don't know if it's still available. Best bet would be shoot it yourself if you can.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alt6grunt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some post mention safety glass while others mention laminated. Are these referring to the same thing, if not what is the difference.

</div></div>

Generic terms....

"Safety Glass" is typically tempered glass that when struck with force will shatter into a zillion small pieces, re: typical back and side glass on a vehicle.

"Laminated Glass" is typically the front windshield on a vehicle. Two layers of glass with a thin sheet of clear plastic sandwiched in the middle. When it gets struck with force the plastic laminate helps keep the glass in shape instead of breaking into a zillion little flying pieces. It's supposed to offer a higher level of impact resistance than tempered glass does since most ordinary impact threats to a vehicle are from the front; road hazzards, animals, flying debris off of other vehicles, etc. It will absorb a lot of impact before the driver's ability to control the vehicle becomes severely compromised.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Thanks, this doesn't sound like anything new.

Based on some of the comments, I thought maybe something new was hitting the assembly lines,
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

We ran some experiments here in AZ at our local club and have found that results vary greatly and are dependant on a lot of conditions i.e. distance, angle of glass, angle of shot, bullet type, shot angle etc. We were actually going to do a glass shoot at the AZ TPRC match with some simple plexi-glass but the weather wasn't working with us.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Is that a state or national requirement? I did a quick check and didn't find any information on this.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Laminated glass also provides structural integrity that is why they use it in rear windows sometimes. I think it my have less bullet deflection believe it or not. Lam is softer than tempered glass. All glass except for the mirrors are safety rated glass and even the mirrors have a safety backing.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Anyone in Washington state wants free windshields I can help them out. You will have to come and get them though.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

shooting through any glass can be very unpredictable, and results will very from many variables. the idea here is to think of the most likely scenarios you are to be in and practice with your particular set up to further enhance your dope and experience. laminated glass presents a problem because once the first round strikes it it does not go away and the angles of laminated glass are often enough to cause severe deflection and or bullet deformation. tempered glass does not present nearly as much of an issue because once the first round strikes it it is out of the way.
for example a patrol officer that takes fire from a vehicle on a traffic stop will probably return a minimum of a full clip through the side or rear window, the first round will take out the glass and if the officer defies the odds and actually makes an well aimed shot after the first round it will not matter. in a high stress situation the shot angle will not have time to be calculated and really wont matter.
where this training will benefit the shooter the most will most likely be a precision type shot on either a vehicle front windshield or laminated window or door of a commercial establishment. precision marksmen have already found a successful tactic for tempered auto and commercial glass (see synchronous shooting drills) that removes the glass and allows a bullet unobstructed access to the target. the problem with tempered glass as someone pointed out above is it is harder and therefor tends to cause allot more damage to projectiles striking it.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

I have never shot through glass, but I did a lot of testing shooting thru light to medium brush, shrubs, and tree branches.
What we found was the bullets deformed on impact and flew wider as the distance from impact to target increased.

For example I could pretty much guarantee a hit if the target was within 5 feet of the brush or tree (tested up to 4 inches in diameter). Beyond that all bets were off.
Testing was done with a 30-06 180gr Hornady at 2750 fps impact velocity.

Just an educated guess, but with the above combo I'm pretty sure could hit someone in the front seat on demand. Hit probability in the back seat would be significantly reduced.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Last year I spent 6 months shooting up a Metro Rail train, a school bus, and a Metro bus. The most profound thing to say about shooting thru glass is it always predictably unpredictable. There are some rules to follow that will create a higher degree of 100% hits. Above all bullet selection is the most critical. The .308 always out performs the .223 in everything I tested. If you want to save some time and money don't waste your time with Match/SMK style bullets. The best performers I found were the Fed Tact 165 bonded, and the 165 Barnes Triple Shok.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

If the bullets hit anything on its way to the target all bets are off, with accuracy being the first casualty. But I've gotta say:

.458 WinMag Solids.... Awesome!

400gr Barnes .458 Soft Point boat tails at 2200fps ain't too bad, either.
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Awesymoto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Graham... a howitzer works too. </div></div>Hmmmm....

Leave it to the Marines to think in subtle terms!
laugh.gif
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

When shooting threw the windshield from inside the vehicle
(handgun,smg and howitzer)with multiple rounds the plastic
sandwiched between the glass melts and drips on dash and
your crotch.


cheers..
 
Re: shooting through windshields...

Shoot center mass and have some reloads!