Rifle Scopes  SHOT Show 2021 Rumor Mill and What's Coming

darth_ritis

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I'm surprised the competition shooters aren't asking for a more bulletproof 2x or 3x erector, at least the NRL/PRS type folks. I always hear folks say they usually don't go below 10x or so, and don't often go above 20x, in almost any stage. So a 10-20x or an 8-24x with stunning glass might be attractive. I could see a NF ATACR or S&B PM III (no illumination tumor) or Kahles or ZCO being popular. I know it seems counter-intuitive to "go backwards" but 7x and 8x erector designs seem gimmicky to me. Stronger and more accurate erector assembly, possibly better optical performance, less variation in perceived FFP reticle size, possibly cheaper to make ... if that were the next Nightforce ATACR and the optical bell didn't rotate with magnification, I'd buy a handful.
 

jzerfoss

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I'm surprised the competition shooters aren't asking for a more bulletproof 2x or 3x erector, at least the NRL/PRS type folks. I always hear folks say they usually don't go below 10x or so, and don't often go above 20x, in almost any stage. So a 10-20x or an 8-24x with stunning glass might be attractive. I could see a NF ATACR or S&B PM III (no illumination tumor) or Kahles or ZCO being popular. I know it seems counter-intuitive to "go backwards" but 7x and 8x erector designs seem gimmicky to me. Stronger and more accurate erector assembly, possibly better optical performance, less variation in perceived FFP reticle size, possibly cheaper to make ... if that were the next Nightforce ATACR and the optical bell didn't rotate with magnification, I'd buy a handful.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying which is why the 7-35 ATACR is one of my favorite match scopes. It's actually around an 8.5x-35 since it tunnels down to 7x which could be looked at as a negative but I don't use the low end during matches. I actually use the 35x all the time with load development, anytime there's a KYL with low mirage, and on some other stages here and there.

Great feeling clicks, great spacing in between clicks, best IQ under mid $3k, as durable and repeatable as any scope in it's class, great competition reticles with the Mil-C and Mil-XT, and the absolute best deal in the high end used market. It's not perfect but it's definitely a great PRS style competition optic.

I think your idea would flop without some kind of game changing feature because there's is a lot of good choices out there for competition only optics. I think the market is now wanting a do it all match/hunting optic which is why you are seeing these big magnification ranges. Big problem is that when you try to satisfy too large of a group and prioritize certain features you make a certain portion of those people unhappy that what they wanted wasn't prioritized.

If someone does figure out how to make a precision rifle optic with 8x or more power range, ultra short, light weight, feature rich, top end IQ, durable, reliable, reticle choices, very few minor faults, all under 3k they will crush the high end market.
 
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Dthomas3523

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    I'm surprised the competition shooters aren't asking for a more bulletproof 2x or 3x erector, at least the NRL/PRS type folks. I always hear folks say they usually don't go below 10x or so, and don't often go above 20x, in almost any stage. So a 10-20x or an 8-24x with stunning glass might be attractive. I could see a NF ATACR or S&B PM III (no illumination tumor) or Kahles or ZCO being popular. I know it seems counter-intuitive to "go backwards" but 7x and 8x erector designs seem gimmicky to me. Stronger and more accurate erector assembly, possibly better optical performance, less variation in perceived FFP reticle size, possibly cheaper to make ... if that were the next Nightforce ATACR and the optical bell didn't rotate with magnification, I'd buy a handful.

    Marketing. People aren’t the most logical when it comes to products.

    7x erector sounds sexier than 3x. Regardless of how much logic you toss in. And many like the ability for a large high end magnification whether it’s practical or not. So, they get the impractical high end, and manufacturers have to do 7x erectors to give them the practical end they need.

    Basically, manufacturers are giving people what the want *and* what they need. Which makes people emotionally happy vs just giving them what they need. We like to feel like we are choosing something rather than being made to take something.
     

    Birddog6424

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    Right, I got a chance to see the reticle and it’s exactly as you say if that is the one they bring to production. My brain says the .25 marks will play games with my ability to hold, but I held with the “old” .5 mil hash reticles before and survived. If Burris would come out with the ever elusive illumination for the XTR III and they thicken up the SCR2 reticle that would probably be the ticket for me, but talking about something we hope will come vs something that’s already here is very different, of course assuming Leupold can actually bring this to market soon.

    Haha, agreed. The Leupy may not get here any sooner than the illuminated XTR3 for all we know.

    I know prototype models of the XTR3 have been created and I heard they were well-received. It sounds like it just needs to go to production.
     
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    beetroot

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    Right, I got a chance to see the reticle and it’s exactly as you say if that is the one they bring to production. My brain says the .25 marks will play games with my ability to hold, but I held with the “old” .5 mil hash reticles before and survived. If Burris would come out with the ever elusive illumination for the XTR III and they thicken up the SCR2 reticle that would probably be the ticket for me, but talking about something we hope will come vs something that’s already here is very different, of course assuming Leupold can actually bring this to market soon.

    It's not an easy job design a new reticle.

    It's not like they just took an existing design, barely changed it and now just need to send a file in the correct format to the glass manufacturer/reticle engraver to then put the reticle in an existing scope model.

    There's a bunch of focus groups, social media, communications department stuff that needs to be done first, not to mention they need to come up with a stupid catchy name for the reticle.
     
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    Night Vision Viking

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    Due to Covid most brands are having a very significant problem with back ordered product. Just staying on top of current offerings is near impossible for most of them. Some orders that we are placing now we are hearing from 4 to 25 weeks before we will see these products.

    Unfortunately this goes for their R&D departments as well.

    Imagine if you have a team sitting with high-end CAD stations that are forced to work from home.
     

    ormandj

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    Unfortunately this goes for their R&D departments as well.

    Imagine if you have a team sitting with high-end CAD stations that are forced to work from home.

    I would hope that any company with that scenario had the foresight to have those distributed to the remote workers earlier this year when it was obvious this would be a long-term issue. I don't think the problem is in the early design/FEA/etc phases; it's purely in the prototyping/manufacturing/assembly/supply chain/physical testing side of the house.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    It's not an easy job design a new reticle.

    It's not like they just took an existing design, barely changed it and now just need to send a file in the correct format to the glass manufacturer/reticle engraver to then put the reticle in an existing scope model.

    There's a bunch of focus groups, social media, communications department stuff that needs to be done first, not to mention they need to come up with a stupid catchy name for the reticle.

    You’d be surprised how very, very little goes into new reticles.

    Usually it’s only a few people involved and the manufacturer is making a decision based on current sales and other such things.

    The time it takes companies to release a reticle are much more to do with all the other things they sell and not the actual reticle. I thought like you until I’ve recently learned much more about the how and why behind things.

    A company could have a new reticle done in the time it takes their reticle supplier to get their order done. A few weeks or couple months of back and forth with a few test reticles and that’s it for the development.

    The older holdup is quantity. It’s obviously cheaper to buy in bulk and a manufacturer has to decide how and when to buy. There are many things that dictate when to.
     

    Habituallinestepper

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    I'm pretty basic, but I'd (still) like to see a couple adjustable stock/chassis options for 10/22s. Thought the pending Bravo might kickstart some of that over the past year.
     

    pblank

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    Haha, agreed. The Leupy may not get here any sooner than the illuminated XTR3 for all we know.

    I know prototype models of the XTR3 have been created and I heard they were well-received. It sounds like it just needs to go to production.

    Any word? I really don't want to get the nx8 2.5-20 but I'm getting pretty tired of waiting around for some pie in the sky
     

    Mike2763

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    Lightweight hunter we’re asking for, FFP, locking turrets, around $700-$800. The Primary Arms GLx 2-10x44 seems like the ticket, but only gets thrown in the SPR conversation. I’m not familiar with the reticle but that’s the only negative I can see for hunting.
     
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    Joee Dirt

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    Interested to see what comes to fruition from this thread come Shot Show time. Looking forward to it.
     

    Bevan

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    Literally a single actual lightweight (550-600gm) 2 or 3x to 12 or 15x 40-45mm FFP 30mm tube scope with half decent quality/reticle/etc on the market would be nice as a hunter that wants FFP and decent quality/features
     

    Glassaholic

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    Literally a single actual lightweight (550-600gm) 2 or 3x to 12 or 15x 40-45mm FFP 30mm tube scope with half decent quality/reticle/etc on the market would be nice as a hunter that wants FFP and decent quality/features
    Leupold almost got there with the Mark 6 3-18x44 but it was plagued with issues early on that kept it from being more popular, now they seem dedicated to the Mark 5 which is a bit heavier and has the odd 35mm tube. Bushnell says they have something that we should be excited about as a replacement for the LRHS/LRTS scopes, so I'm hoping for something in the 5x erector range, maybe a 2.6-13x44 and a 4-20x44 or better yet a 4-20x50 all kept well under 30oz
     

    Bevan

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    I've got the Mk6 and I like it, but it's 34mm tube, would prefer 30mm as it gives options for direct mounting using e.g. talley ringmounts rather than a rail etc
     
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    Just Macca

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    Leupold almost got there with the Mark 6 3-18x44 but it was plagued with issues early on that kept it from being more popular, now they seem dedicated to the Mark 5 which is a bit heavier and has the odd 35mm tube. Bushnell says they have something that we should be excited about as a replacement for the LRHS/LRTS scopes, so I'm hoping for something in the 5x erector range, maybe a 2.6-13x44 and a 4-20x44 or better yet a 4-20x50 all kept well under 30oz

    Something to compete with the TT 3-15 M and H series, but lighter and cheaper. Glass quality will obviously have to be sacrificed but that’s tolerable to a point.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Something to compete with the TT 3-15 M and H series, but lighter and cheaper. Glass quality will obviously have to be sacrificed but that’s tolerable to a point.
    I would love to see something compete with the TT315M "Light Tactical" and would love to see ZCO come out with a "Light Tactical" version of their 4-20, but doubt that's on their radar right now as their specialty is long range scopes with large 36mm tubes and just don't see "light" and "ZCO" marrying anytime soon ;) So that leaves the door open for someone like Vortex with their AMG line or of course Bushnell to come in with something that punches above its class like the LRHS/LRTS series did. Bushnell has a history of working with LOW on some of their Elite Tactical scopes, some of the latest LOW designs have been pretty impressive so hoping Bushnell can put out a new scope right around the $1k point. Would also love to see a new iteration of the G2H reticle with the circle of death, a G4H with .2 mil spacing with tree dots and circle of death would certainly have my interest for a crossover long range/hunting optic.
     

    Just Macca

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    So that leaves the door open for someone like Vortex with their AMG line or of course Bushnell to come in with something that punches above its class like the LRHS/LRTS series did. Bushnell has a history of working with LOW on some of their Elite Tactical scopes, some of the latest LOW designs have been pretty impressive so hoping Bushnell can put out a new scope right around the $1k point. Would also love to see a new iteration of the G2H reticle with the circle of death, a G4H with .2 mil spacing with tree dots and circle of death would certainly have my interest for a crossover long range/hunting optic.

    Bushnell take note, that’s the perfect outline of what the LRHS replacement should look like.
     
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    beetroot

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    I've got the Mk6 and I like it, but it's 34mm tube, would prefer 30mm as it gives options for direct mounting using e.g. talley ringmounts rather than a rail etc

    30mm definitely preferable for me too, far more ring options available.

    A 4-20x44/50 LRHS with a good reticle and less rubbish FOV would be about perfect.
    Or Leupold could rethink their stupid 4-20 VX5.
     

    Clocked92

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    I'm pretty content... I just want a Vortex Gen 3 in something like 5-30x56. Constantly looking at Tangents and ZCO's is tempting but the sticker shock always brings me back to Vortex.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Athlon announcements didn't include a Cronus 3-18, but if they keep the weight down that could be the first Athlon to really interest me. Hoping the Bushnell LRHS/LRTS replacement announcement comes by January (what would have been SHOT Show had our country not gone insane about COVID). Honestly, if Bushnell is working with LOW on this one (like they did with the original series) this has me really curious, but while I love my 4.5-18x44, I do wish for at least 50mm objective for better low light situations.
     
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    powdahound76

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    Im struggling not snagging the LRTS on Cameraland vs waiting for the new Bushnell reticle and designs.
    With all the uncertainty with when they will actually get the designs out.

    And such a bargain....
     

    Glassaholic

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    Im struggling not snagging the LRTS on Cameraland vs waiting for the new Bushnell reticle and designs.
    With all the uncertainty with when they will actually get the designs out.

    And such a bargain....
    I think one thing is pretty certain, the new LRTS will NOT sell for $750, if it's close to $1000 I'd be pleasantly surprised but my gut tells me it's probably going to be closer to $1500. Bushnell is probably looking to compete with Burris XTR III, Leupold Mark 5 and NF NX8...

    I say this to say that if the LRTS 4.5-18x44 checks the boxes of what you're looking for, it is a fantastic scope and at $750 almost too good to pass up.
     

    Hondo64d

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    Bushnell take note, that’s the perfect outline of what the LRHS replacement should look like.
    Never was a big fan of the circle myself. Would rather it be a G2 with the post coming in closer to the center so you could bracket with them for close range low light conditions yet not interfere with windage holds like the G2H did. I actually prefer the G3i reticle over the G2H, not because its illuminated, but because they made it thicker to accommodate the illumination.

    John
     

    powdahound76

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    @wjm308 - I would really love 0.2 wind holds out to 1 or 2 on just the horizontal stadia (mostly cause I dont do as well as I would like holding with .5, YET).
    I will say this. It will work for now, especially not knowing when stuff will be released, let along come to market and be available. I do qualify for their bargain program direct from Bushnell, but again, no idea when the availability hits.

    Also, I was looking at either the DMR Pro or the XRS mag range with an updated G3, so maybe even north of $1500....

    I think you just helped convince me of what I need to do. At least for now. 😁
     

    BoilerUP

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    Athlon announcements didn't include a Cronus 3-18, but if they keep the weight down that could be the first Athlon to really interest me. Hoping the Bushnell LRHS/LRTS replacement announcement comes by January (what would have been SHOT Show had our country not gone insane about COVID). Honestly, if Bushnell is working with LOW on this one (like they did with the original series) this has me really curious, but while I love my 4.5-18x44, I do wish for at least 50mm objective for better low light situations.

    Not a Cronos 3-18x, but Athlon did release an Ares ETR 3-18x UHD.
     

    ghostrider272

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    I'd like to see Kahles or Swarovski come back with a version of the MultiZero in a 2-7x36 scope again, or put the BD turrets on the Z3 3-9x36...
     
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    CrabsandFootball

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    I think one thing is pretty certain, the new LRTS will NOT sell for $750, if it's close to $1000 I'd be pleasantly surprised but my gut tells me it's probably going to be closer to $1500. Bushnell is probably looking to compete with Burris XTR III, Leupold Mark 5 and NF NX8...

    I say this to say that if the LRTS 4.5-18x44 checks the boxes of what you're looking for, it is a fantastic scope and at $750 almost too good to pass up.
    They are awesome for what they are. I just wish there was something similar specs with better eye box and glass (not that the glass is bad, but I want alpha glass for my hunting guns). I run 3 of them right now and would like to upgrade them to something in the near future. AMG is only logical step right now. Maybe a Minox 3-15 with MR4.

    A 4-20 AMG would be titties.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Curious if the new Vortex NGSW-FC 1-8x30 may make it to the civilian market in 2021 (okay, so I'm sure it's still in trials with military, but this old man can dream can't he)


    VORTEX NEXT GENERATION SQUAD WEAPON FIRE CONTROL (NGSW-FC) 1-8x30.jpg
     

    Lurp06x

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    Curious if the new Vortex NGSW-FC 1-8x30 may make it to the civilian market in 2021 (okay, so I'm sure it's still in trials with military, but this old man can dream can't he)


    View attachment 7502112
    I want it but it looks very expensive.
     

    Joee Dirt

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    Doubt it, but would be nice go see an upgraded NF ATACR 1-8 and making the center dot a bit smaller for distance.

    Been on the fence of getting one or not.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Doubt it, but would be nice go see an upgraded NF ATACR 1-8 and making the center dot a bit smaller for distance.

    Been on the fence of getting one or not.
    Have you seen it in person? @jwknutson17 just ordered one, next time we shoot together I'll try to remember to see how the dot looks at distance, or he can chime in here and let you know his thoughts once he gets a little time behind it.
     

    Glassaholic

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    New Bushnell Elite LRHS2 has shown up, not quite what I hoped it would be (essentially an upgraded LRHS with ED Prime glass and G3H reticle with locking windage but same specs otherwise it would appear) but something of interest nonetheless.

     

    Hondo64d

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    New Bushnell Elite LRHS2 has shown up, not quite what I hoped it would be (essentially an upgraded LRHS with ED Prime glass and G3H reticle with locking windage but same specs otherwise it would appear) but something of interest nonetheless.


    Was a bit disappointed in the reticle description as well. Noticed G3H vs previous G2H. So I’m guessing a G3 with the donut? I did read it is still a 4-18 though. As my eyes get older they seem to appreciate more Xs.

    John
     
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    Glassaholic

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    Some of my predictions are coming true:
    • Leupold came out with a better reticle - PR2
    • Bushnell has an updated LRHS
    • Now if Burris would finally release illumination for the XTR III (I would buy another 3.3-18 in a heartbeat, but not without illumination)
    • A new Vortex AMG possibly...
     
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    beetroot

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    Was a bit disappointed in the reticle description as well. Noticed G3H vs previous G2H. So I’m guessing a G3 with the donut? I did read it is still a 4-18 though. As my eyes get older they seem to appreciate more Xs.

    John

    Sounds like the glass is improved but otherwise the optical system is the same, still 4.5-18 and below average FOV, unfortunately.
     

    beetroot

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    Some of my predictions are coming true:
    • Leupold came out with a better reticle - PR2
    • Bushnell has an updated LRHS
    • Now if Burris would finally release illumination for the XTR III (I would buy another 3.3-18 in a heartbeat, but not without illumination)
    • A new Vortex AMG possibly...

    Burris XTR3 illumination is due in 2021, so could still be 12 months away.....
     
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