- Thread starter jerryrva
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Well. Well. well. History is normally written by the winner.but at one time people in this country values of truth ,freedom from government and the right to defend you and what is yours.men on both sides of that war were right and wrong. But to forget it will only cause a repeat of it.
That would be my guess...
Here is the replacement for all statues.
Fundamentally and at the core, there is very little difference between tearing down these monuments and burning books.
This is a great article by John Kass that boils it down what's happening.
www.realclearpolitics.com
Politics as Religion After George Floyd. This Isn't an Orwellian Novel. This Is Your Country | RealClearPolitics
What are you really seeing as Americans kneel, hands raised in secular prayer, repeating political creeds on the TV news? And that secular foot-washing? You're witness to neo-Marxist appropriation of...
The same SJW's that want the Confederate bases renamed, think VN vets are a bunch of baby killers.
What these idiots don't understand was that all those statues were put up by THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, victor in the American Civil WAR because, "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan – to do all which may achieve and cherish a just, and a lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.”
The Civil War could have gone on for another hundred years or more. It could still be going on. It could have been the Reconquista, or Northern Ireland, or any number of intractable conflicts that never end... It wasn't because "we" decided to end it and become one nation again. A big part of that was acknowledging that there was honor and heroism on the defeated side, and Lincoln at least (his assassination allowed a different Reconstruction) did not seek to punish the South, but rather wanted to embrace the Southern States back into the Union.
These people seek to divide and destroy us. They are godless enemies of humanity. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.
The Civil War could have gone on for another hundred years or more. It could still be going on. It could have been the Reconquista, or Northern Ireland, or any number of intractable conflicts that never end... It wasn't because "we" decided to end it and become one nation again. A big part of that was acknowledging that there was honor and heroism on the defeated side, and Lincoln at least (his assassination allowed a different Reconstruction) did not seek to punish the South, but rather wanted to embrace the Southern States back into the Union.
These people seek to divide and destroy us. They are godless enemies of humanity. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.
So if Congresswomen Talib and/or Omar wanted to name a base after Anwar al-Awlaki, a US Citizen that was involved in Al Qaeda operation, would you agree with their proposal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
In my opinion, HELL NO! I wasn't happy in the legal/political way he was picked to be killed. At a minimum the State Department should have stripped him of his citizenship the minute he fled to Yemen. But in the end, if we couldn't get him to GTMO, he did get what he deserved.
But naming a base or placing a statue on city/state government grounds is wrong. If people want a statue, put it in the cemetary where Civil War vets are buried, or in a veterans park with other statues memorializing other wars. It isn't about erasing history. It is about putting it in the context it deserves.
The divisions on this topic are a microcosm of why wars are fought when we can't sit down and work it out. Slavery was horrible but it was not the only reason the civil war was fought. Economics played a huge part. The North did not want the South to develop its warm-water ports that would have resulted in a shift of influence (think power). The other issue, among others, was/is state's rights. Reconstruction was nothing more than punishment of the South. Lincoln's assassin was a tragedy on many levels. Seems we are still at odds over many of those issues.
I do have one question: When all of the statues are gone, all of the streets renamed, and all of the bases renamed, and the critical issues remain, who/what will be the new target?
I do have one question: When all of the statues are gone, all of the streets renamed, and all of the bases renamed, and the critical issues remain, who/what will be the new target?
some awesome points....i enjoy well thought out and executed considerations and discussions. sometimes the answers aren't easy. even scientific principles that we absolutely know to be true are modified, evolved, reviewed, updated, refined and sometimes discounted.
everything changes...it always will. civilizations, religions, streets and palaces all get covered over, forgotten, destroyed, withered away...from dust to dust.
the best we can hope for is to create a kinder more stable and just world
Do-nothing.....there are few things that i hold as absolute, i do however believe that living things will never suffer a paucity of targets
everything changes...it always will. civilizations, religions, streets and palaces all get covered over, forgotten, destroyed, withered away...from dust to dust.
the best we can hope for is to create a kinder more stable and just world
Do-nothing.....there are few things that i hold as absolute, i do however believe that living things will never suffer a paucity of targets
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So you are telling the locals it ok to honor their dead, but you pick the location!
What I am saying is make it appropriate for the real reason you are erecting the statue. Since a large majority of of them went up when the KKK was active, and the reasons for them were not commemorating the dead, but to intimidate minorities, I do have an issue with the confederate statues. How as a minority are you supposed to feel that you will get a fair hearing in court if the elected officials, judges, police, ect are all at the unvailing in front of the courthouse or town hall? And the KKK is either there directly or indirectly, since many senior KKK members were also the same community leaders.
Ever been to Gettysburg?
The monuments completely display the military aspects of the battle as well as it human toll.
Those statues in these small towns reflect again the human toll.
No Northern town of any size lacks a Civil War monument to the dead.
Let the dead rest.
Wtf are you talking about? Naming a base after a terrorist?
Since I wasn't born in your referenced time frame, I don't know what was in these men's heart. Maybe you do! By the way, I'm 70 and have only once seen KKK people in uniform. That was in a rally in Tupelo, MS (birth place of Elvis Presley) more than 30 years ago. I'm sure klan members still exist, but I don't know any, and don't know where to find one.
Slavery by another name...
I am offended.... therefore I am a slave to whoever wants to create an action, I choose to take offense to, to allow emotion to control rational thought, and to waste valuable life moments, slaving to FEELINGS that DO NOT advance my life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Some people give themselves over into slavery by another name, by allowing "offense" to hold them back, blaming someone else for a failure to succeed because I'm offended, I just cant put it behind me and stand on my own two feet, and succeed by hard work.
I cannot be a free person because you and every other motherfucker who doesnt look like me offends me by doing all your shit.
The offender, "Say again, why u give me all this power over you?" "You are giving it to me, I never asked for it, dont want it, and dont really give a shit because I can control my emotions and have a freedom to do what you, mr/mrs offended, are holding yourself back from, because you choose to be offended, sit there mad and sulking, and refuse to GO DO SOMETHING for yourself.."
"Fucking Slave, your mind enslaves you, free YOURSELF dumbfuck."
Let that shit go and move on.
Just sayin...
I am offended.... therefore I am a slave to whoever wants to create an action, I choose to take offense to, to allow emotion to control rational thought, and to waste valuable life moments, slaving to FEELINGS that DO NOT advance my life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Some people give themselves over into slavery by another name, by allowing "offense" to hold them back, blaming someone else for a failure to succeed because I'm offended, I just cant put it behind me and stand on my own two feet, and succeed by hard work.
I cannot be a free person because you and every other motherfucker who doesnt look like me offends me by doing all your shit.
The offender, "Say again, why u give me all this power over you?" "You are giving it to me, I never asked for it, dont want it, and dont really give a shit because I can control my emotions and have a freedom to do what you, mr/mrs offended, are holding yourself back from, because you choose to be offended, sit there mad and sulking, and refuse to GO DO SOMETHING for yourself.."
"Fucking Slave, your mind enslaves you, free YOURSELF dumbfuck."
Let that shit go and move on.
Just sayin...
Where the books are being burned and history torn down
Most of the statues are in very public places that Blacks weren't even allowed to go when they were erected! They were erected to demonstrate healing and unity, not hatred. I know the Confederate War Memorial that was removed from Forrest Park in St. Louis was erected and paid for by the Daughters of the Confederacy, which was an organization where the members had parents and grandparents who fought for the Confederacy. There was nothing exceptionally racist about it other than racism was the Global Warming of the day. If you weren't a racist you were a "denier". It was simply acknowledging the truth that they fought bravely and honorably for what they believed in, and then laid down their arms and rejoined The Union rather than fight a hundred year guerilla war (a definite possibility). It is simply the truth, which makes people woke people like you scatter like fucking cockroaches.
So, because there was a Bund in the 1930s means America is a Nazi country? There is nothing more dangerous than pop-culture historie/woke revisionism. The idea that what happened didn't really happen till you interpret it through your modern lens is worse than burning books and trying to erase history. You are trying to spread ignorance and lies that further your agenda.
See post #65. No one is more dangerous than the pure who want to purge the world of impurity. You are The Beast.
Where the fuck did you read that woke bullshit theory? There isn't a shred of real evidence to support that bullshit, though you are right about virtually every single Democrat from the late 19th century through the 1960s being an open Klansman (they still are just privately). Who do you think is most excited to erase their own history? I'd be more than happy to remove any and all statues erected by the KKK with the intent to intimidate black people. Show me historic evidence this is the case and not Antifa/BLM bullshit and I'll listen. You must be horribly miseducated. Public school? State college? Don't like to read?
Most of the statues are in very public places that Blacks weren't even allowed to go when they were erected! They were erected to demonstrate healing and unity, not hatred. I know the Confederate War Memorial that was removed from Forrest Park in St. Louis was erected and paid for by the Daughters of the Confederacy, which was an organization where the members had parents and grandparents who fought for the Confederacy. There was nothing exceptionally racist about it other than racism was the Global Warming of the day. If you weren't a racist you were a "denier". It was simply acknowledging the truth that they fought bravely and honorably for what they believed in, and then laid down their arms and rejoined The Union rather than fight a hundred year guerilla war (a definite possibility). It is simply the truth, which makes people woke people like you scatter like fucking cockroaches.
So, because there was a Bund in the 1930s means America is a Nazi country? There is nothing more dangerous than pop-culture historie/woke revisionism. The idea that what happened didn't really happen till you interpret it through your modern lens is worse than burning books and trying to erase history. You are trying to spread ignorance and lies that further your agenda.
See post #65. No one is more dangerous than the pure who want to purge the world of impurity. You are The Beast.
1. I already said battlefields is an appropriate place for statues since that is where the fighting took place. I haven't been to Gettysburg, but Bull Run many times since it is just down the street from Fairfax. And in NoVa you cannot go more than a mile without tripping over something tied to the Civil War. One of my most favorite historical markers here is a sign on 29 letting you know that Bull Run was fought 10 miles from this spot. And I've been to a few other battlefields for other wars. Waterloo has both Wellington and Napoleon. I don't see an issue.
2. Glad you are upset at the idea of naming a base after a terrorist. But if bases in the south were named after confederate Generals to placate the south, why couldn't Talib or Omar want the same for their radical, anti-American, pro-Islam constituents? If you are upset at that idea, I am with you. But I am wondering why you are not upset about US Army bases named after people who renounced their US Citizenship and took up arms and lead others against us.
3. The Klan is a lot like Al Qaeda now. There are still pockets here and there of them. But for the most part they are a relic of the past. But to ignore the role the KKK had in the south prior to concerted efforts in the 1980s to break their power is as big of rewriting history as destroying statues. If you think the KKK didn't have relevance to political leadership, take a look at Sen Byrd of W. Virginia. And if you need documentation on the link between an increase in confederate statues and resurgence of KKK activity, Jon Oliver did a great piece a few years ago on it. Not to mention multiple other news articles on the topic. And they cite local news articles of the period giving who was at the statue's unavailing. So yes, it is documented.
2. Glad you are upset at the idea of naming a base after a terrorist. But if bases in the south were named after confederate Generals to placate the south, why couldn't Talib or Omar want the same for their radical, anti-American, pro-Islam constituents? If you are upset at that idea, I am with you. But I am wondering why you are not upset about US Army bases named after people who renounced their US Citizenship and took up arms and lead others against us.
3. The Klan is a lot like Al Qaeda now. There are still pockets here and there of them. But for the most part they are a relic of the past. But to ignore the role the KKK had in the south prior to concerted efforts in the 1980s to break their power is as big of rewriting history as destroying statues. If you think the KKK didn't have relevance to political leadership, take a look at Sen Byrd of W. Virginia. And if you need documentation on the link between an increase in confederate statues and resurgence of KKK activity, Jon Oliver did a great piece a few years ago on it. Not to mention multiple other news articles on the topic. And they cite local news articles of the period giving who was at the statue's unavailing. So yes, it is documented.
Wake the fuck up.
Who is wanting to tear down the reminders of who and what happened in the civil war?
Who is unable to let "racism" go/die?
Who stands to benefit from the above?
As we hear talk that the holocaust was faked...from europe...
They can drive there and it wasn't 150 years ago.
Notice a pattern?...
FFS
R
Who is wanting to tear down the reminders of who and what happened in the civil war?
Who is unable to let "racism" go/die?
Who stands to benefit from the above?
As we hear talk that the holocaust was faked...from europe...
They can drive there and it wasn't 150 years ago.
Notice a pattern?...
FFS
R
Go outside, go for a walk, whatever.
It’s been 155 years, and of all the things to be grinding an axe over, this? It’s a DNC outrage culture talking point.
And equating Southerners, actual Americans, with contemporary terrorists like Al Qaeda is a steaming pile of horseshit.
I agree with @pmclaine and @j-huskey, let the dead rest, and move on.
Show me any amount close to 100 members of legitmate KKK or shut the hell up.
This line of bs has been overplayed.
They were all but laughed out of society before you were born I'll wager.
Another bs influence game to play on the dense.
I'd suggest looking for old school democrats...
R
Don't worry, they will try removing all of those soon enough if they continue to act as they are unchecked.
Quite well stated. Thank you for this well reasoned comment.
Lol
Check the wiki link I'll leave here for ya:
Ku Klux Klan members in United States politics - Wikipedia
Check their political affiliation while you're at it and then reread my post from above.
R
To Whom it may concern:
After the unpleasantness, the country did something unheard of......
FORGIVENESS....
And.... those returnees to the fold received full citizenship back by the Grace of God and from the best of The Constitution of the United States....
And this....
Once those citizens received full citizenship back, were paroled, pardoned, and accepted fully back as brothers, many of them went on to do excellent works to rebuild the US. And were rewarded for it.
Remember to whom it may concern, the bases were named by the United States Government who won the war and wrote the history, and who REBUILT the US after the war along with many of those who fought against it.
They fought against it, lost, returned in grace, and worked to rebuild it.
Reitetating...
Who are you to judge their success and hold a grudge against these men that were FORGIVEN and welcomed back....
You were never part of the us they fought. You have no standing to hold a grudge now, when those who actually fought them, forgave them and welcomed them back.
Move on...
People who want to hold grudges rather than forgiveness should go interview the Bosnians, Serbians, Herzegovinans, and understand you can have that unpleasantness in your neighborhood at any time if you let that hate eat you and control you, instead of letting it go, and work for a real solution.
Appeasement has never worked...
After the unpleasantness, the country did something unheard of......
FORGIVENESS....
And.... those returnees to the fold received full citizenship back by the Grace of God and from the best of The Constitution of the United States....
And this....
Once those citizens received full citizenship back, were paroled, pardoned, and accepted fully back as brothers, many of them went on to do excellent works to rebuild the US. And were rewarded for it.
Remember to whom it may concern, the bases were named by the United States Government who won the war and wrote the history, and who REBUILT the US after the war along with many of those who fought against it.
They fought against it, lost, returned in grace, and worked to rebuild it.
Reitetating...
Who are you to judge their success and hold a grudge against these men that were FORGIVEN and welcomed back....
You were never part of the us they fought. You have no standing to hold a grudge now, when those who actually fought them, forgave them and welcomed them back.
Move on...
People who want to hold grudges rather than forgiveness should go interview the Bosnians, Serbians, Herzegovinans, and understand you can have that unpleasantness in your neighborhood at any time if you let that hate eat you and control you, instead of letting it go, and work for a real solution.
Appeasement has never worked...
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A sincere consideration must be made to never forget, erase, or sanitize history or terror. There is no doubt immeasurable value gained from learning from history.
There’s a significant contextual difference between a monument that preserves a historical event, site or focus…. from one that celebrates an individual who travailed in efforts to dehumanize another.
I empathize with the pain, terror, trauma that one experiences when viewing a monument that celebrates the life of one who was directly responsible their pain and terror.
I hope no one ever forgets the horror of slavery....and i pray we never again torture or destroy another human, culture or community for profit.
There’s a significant contextual difference between a monument that preserves a historical event, site or focus…. from one that celebrates an individual who travailed in efforts to dehumanize another.
I empathize with the pain, terror, trauma that one experiences when viewing a monument that celebrates the life of one who was directly responsible their pain and terror.
I hope no one ever forgets the horror of slavery....and i pray we never again torture or destroy another human, culture or community for profit.
Lol
Check the wiki link I'll leave here for ya:
See if you can figure out when they folks were relevant...Ku Klux Klan members in United States politics - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Check their political affiliation while you're at it and then reread my post from above.
R
And from the end of Reconstruction to the 1990s, who controlled the South? Hint, it wasn't the Republicans. So thanks for using the Wiki to prove my point. As for the statues, I referred to this earlier. It is worth the 21 minutes.
In the context of what is happening today,
Not a single living person depicted in any statue, building, book, movie, or song, did one single thing to a person today, not one....
To create "pain, terror, and trauma" to a viewer. Not one single fucking thing. They have been dead and gone 150 years.
The people who HAVE caused pain, terror, and trauma are representatives of the duly elected leaders who have ruled the US since 1865.... not some dead person who died 100 years ago.
This is way beyond. If you look at a statue, building, book, or movie about something that happened 150 years before you were born, and experience pain, terror, and trauma, perhaps the terrified viewer should stay hidden in their room and never look at reality, reality they best learn to live with and succeed in, despite the normal unpleasantness that life can bring, much less pain, terror, and trauma.
Reality is a bitch. Toughen up and deal with it, or be a whining victim forever.
Who is teaching people to be terrified of something that no longer exists. Who is responsible for putting such stupid shit in people's minds that they enslave themselves to abject failure because they are afraid of an idea..
Not a single living person depicted in any statue, building, book, movie, or song, did one single thing to a person today, not one....
To create "pain, terror, and trauma" to a viewer. Not one single fucking thing. They have been dead and gone 150 years.
The people who HAVE caused pain, terror, and trauma are representatives of the duly elected leaders who have ruled the US since 1865.... not some dead person who died 100 years ago.
This is way beyond. If you look at a statue, building, book, or movie about something that happened 150 years before you were born, and experience pain, terror, and trauma, perhaps the terrified viewer should stay hidden in their room and never look at reality, reality they best learn to live with and succeed in, despite the normal unpleasantness that life can bring, much less pain, terror, and trauma.
Reality is a bitch. Toughen up and deal with it, or be a whining victim forever.
Who is teaching people to be terrified of something that no longer exists. Who is responsible for putting such stupid shit in people's minds that they enslave themselves to abject failure because they are afraid of an idea..
Love being lectured by a Brit that drags in every fascist org or name he can drop including Hitler.
Only good points were to place statues for the black congressman and aviatrix.
Everything else was shit.
So the BIG question is WHEN DOES MOUNT RUSHMORE COME DOWN?????
I understand what you've written and respectfully disagree...i guest that's what discussions, debates, historical review are for.
There are many learning and coping modalities....likely that method works for some.
For many, the importance of historical and collective memory is ever present and meaningful. I believe that i have learned lessons passed down from generations, be they religious, cultural, ethical, moral, caution or scientific.
learning from, remembering and building upon has proven well and productive for many. i don't consider learning and review a constituent of weakness.
There are many learning and coping modalities....likely that method works for some.
For many, the importance of historical and collective memory is ever present and meaningful. I believe that i have learned lessons passed down from generations, be they religious, cultural, ethical, moral, caution or scientific.
learning from, remembering and building upon has proven well and productive for many. i don't consider learning and review a constituent of weakness.
The reason the most statues were commissioned 1910 to 1920 era was because the generations of the war were dying. The last Gettysburg reunion was the 75th, 1938 and there were soldiers from each side in attendance. Just about the entire Marine Corps re-enacted or was tasked with providing service to the attendees.
The reason for the spike in the 60s I agree was the Democratic Party saying fuck you to the Republican call for civil rights.
The reason for the spike in the 60s I agree was the Democratic Party saying fuck you to the Republican call for civil rights.
Not a problem. In fact, I'll even add to it.
There are monuments and memorials dedicated to British soldiers and officers from the American Revolution in the United States. For example, this one dedicated to John André in New York: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_André#Aftermath
Part of the inscription reads thus:
A hundred years after his execution, this stone was placed above the spot where he lay by a citizen of the states against which he fought, not to perpetuate the record of strife but in token of those better feelings which have since united two nations, one in race, in language, and in religion, with the earnest hope that this friendly union will never be broken.
Concord
Lexington
Battle Road
Every October, Fort Devens MA, POW section of the Post Cemetery.
There is a Confederate spy buried there also.
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The woke snowflakes don't care about the Brits, only the South is bad. Even though they and other europeans engaged in the slave trade for 300 years or more and brought the original slaves to the US.
If someone is living in fear and pain from something that happened 154 years ago, they have serious mental problems and removing some statues of old dead guys won't fix stupid.
If someone is living in fear and pain from something that happened 154 years ago, they have serious mental problems and removing some statues of old dead guys won't fix stupid.
How about NO......period.With apparent support of GOP members in Congress, the military may be required within 3 years to erase all names of bases, ships, aircraft and streets that honor the Confederacy. Are we going to be like the Taliban and erase history that some people don't like or refuse to even acknowledge?
GOP-led committee backs renaming bases that honor Confederates, setting up clash with Trump
The president said Wednesday that he would “not even consider” renaming Army bases that honor Confederate leaders.www.nbcnews.com
BOOM!
I would say if it bothers them that much they should move to their mother land and be where their families came from to rid themselves of the ugly past they face here.. PROBLEM solved
simple answer oh hell no .
Military bases named after men who on very short notice and with far less resources then were available to the North were able to raise,equip ( although far less well then the North) and train a bunch of mostly farm boys to go toe to toe with the Army of the United States who had far more soldiers, in real no holds bared battle. Militarily that's one hell of an accomplishment. I don't care if you agree with their cause. As for military prowess that is something you might want to aspire to. And just for the not too bright who are always looking for an easy answer this was not modern day guerrilla war. This was stand there and fight with the tactics of the day. Maybe naming a military base after them has as much to do with instilling a marshal mindset in it's officers and troops as it does to healing not so old wounds... Don't forget these men read and understood the Constitution as did many in the North. They just read it differently then others. A place I find myself in quite often today. I can see their point on that count as I look at our current day leaders, and wannabe leaders.
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