Night Vision  SOK's TigIR Z6+ Initial Review + Video

SkyScrapin

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Well, it all starts with a picture... so here ya go! A video will follow shortly.

DSC01219.jpg



These are initial thoughts after playing with the Tig to learn it's capabilities and how it compares to what the US commercial customers have access too. They're not conclusive, but it's a damn good start!

Shuttered NUC: Some love it; some hate it. I’ve never had a product with this feature that I particularly liked for the fact that it always seemed to go off at the wrong time. Imagine tracking a sounder in Texas and having to pause while the getting is good before you engage your targets. Yeah, that was me. With the TigIR, it’s lightning fast and pretty dang quiet. It also gives you a short countdown so you know when it’s coming. Upon start-up the unit triggers itself multiple times which is my exact procedure with any of my manual NUC devices – this is a huge positive for me. Once the unit is good an warm after a few minutes, it does it less and less as you would expect. With four CR123s or two 16650s, you can last all night (remind you of the good ole days?).

Color Pallets: There are options upon options. With the FLIR I-Series 640 Boson core, you get all the options. I find myself using Black Hot these days, but it’s nice to have options for you particular types. You can enable and disable the color pallets you like within the menu which enables you to shorten your cycle times to find the option that best suits your conditions.

Collimation: This unit does not have a risley prism like most high end clip-on units. Not a problem. You can go through collimation procedures at every magnification level your heart desires (1x, 2x, 4x, 6x) with the exception of .8x, but that’s on Andres roadmap. .8x is less useful for me, but some may have a need. What are you giving up without a Risley Prism you ask? The ability to swap from host to host without going through a zero procedure. For those that have multiple firearms to use, rest assure, you can save up to 6 different profiles. The collimation procedure is simple with the four button layout and I found it very easy to manipulate. If you can read a manual, you can collimate this optic to your system.

Button Layout: It’s strange. There are four buttons on this unit, all of which serve great purpose and are easy to manipulate. The two buttons on the left (bottom button is #1, the one above it is #2), you can zoom, switch pallets, and increase display brightness. These are the primary buttons I find myself needing access to and they’re in a good spot for manipulation. The top button (#3) is hardly used, but useful during menu operations. The ocular side button (#4) is very handy in the event you break the objective lens cover on the thermal. It allows you to turn the unit on and off, or NUC. It’s also needed for saving menu items.

The Objective Lens: The device is engraved with 55mm F/1.0 which is very compact yet still able to do its job quite well. The objective cover when flapped down will cut the units power, and while in the up position it turns the unit on. No more finding small buttons with gloves in the pitch black to operate this unit.

The Ocular: You’re going to have a hard time looking through it as a monocular without a 3x rear end magnifier (we offer and stock them), but most won’t use this unit in this capacity. As a clip-on, you’re in the chips.

Mounts: This unit does not come standard with any pic rail mounts as per German export rules. This is resolved with a few additional parts included with every unit we offer, an EraTac mount and a plate bringing the overall optical center to 1.5” with a 38mm mount. Additional mounts can be had in several flavors: 36mm, 39mm, etc., as well as Bell Mounts in 50mm and 56mm as an example. We’re working with the manufacturer to bring additional options for the guys running NV capable red dots with magnifiers approaching the 2.25” optical center height. Other options may be available based on demand. Let us know what you need. Additionally, the display (see below) has the ability to shift within the viable pixels up to +/- 3mm. This means if you typically run a 1.5” optical center and a 38mm mount, you can get away other host systems that have a taller or shorter optical center. 34mm is the lowest mount made today, and that would net you a 31mm height at the lowest possible display setting. In order to achieve 50bmg recoil ratings, they cannot make a shorter mount with the existing pic rail option.

Power: This unit will run on four CR123 or two 16650 rechargeable. We have not yet tested if it will run on two CR123s or one 16650 rechargeable batteries. There is also an accessory cable which plugs in easily to the Tig which allows for external power.

Recording: Just like the external port that allows remote power banks, there is an accessory cable and DVR that allows you to record what the TigIR sees. It does not allow you to see any reticles internally (it doesn’t have them anyways) or externally with a day scope since it does not see through the day scope lens. If you’re looking to perform long range recon or record your guns from a tripod, this unit is ideally setup for that.

Fixed Focus: Yes, it’s fixed, albeit, at infinity. This means you will have usable images from 25 meters to beyond. If you find yourself needing this unit to be short range capable, it will of course work at ranges, of say, 15 meters, but the image will be a little fuzzy.

Display: This sucker has a large for core OLED display meaning you have more pixels to work with than the core is capable of pushing out. This offers you a cleaner image compared to comparable 640 cored 640 display units.

Weight: The naked unit weighs 1lb 2.9oz.

Size: It’s tiny. You only need a small amount of rail space to leverage this optic as a clip-on compared to other competitors which are significantly larger. Images of sizing will be posted shortly.

Packaging: The optic comes with all of its documents, batteries, and lens cloth, packaged inside of a nice plastic hard case with what appears to be water jet cut foam. It fits like a glove. There’s room inside to carry spare batteries too and mounts.

Negatives:
  • Regarding Warranty, Strictly Offensive Kit will help facilitate your unit getting shipped back to the manufacturer should you have issues. What we know thus far is these things were designed to be 50BMG rated, but we cannot say a SCAR17 won’t eat its lunch. I would advise against putting it on a SCAR as I have first-hand experience of what it can and will do to a thermal clip-on.
  • No Risley Prism. Having several clip-ons that have this technology, and now using the Tig without it, it doesn’t bother me much, but you will have to go through a collimation procedure which is quite simple.
  • Doesn’t come factory with a mount, only the 6M does. This is due to German law. We are still able to provide the exact same mounting solutions despite it not being packaged with one.
  • Shuttered Auto-NUC. Depending on your use case, maybe it’s a detractor, and maybe not. Regardless, it can be turned off in the menu. Its lightning fast and I tend to like the feature.

Positives:
  • It turns on when the objective cover is opened and it auto-NUCs itself as part of its startup regiment. This is a positive for me.
  • Weight and size. It crushes the competition. In fact, there is no other unit that is even close in class based on price, features and value. It was never a fair fight.
  • Rechargeable batts!
  • Loads of pallet options with the ability to turn desired pallets on or off so you don’t have to cycle through them if you know they aren’t your speed.
  • Minimal rail space required to mount.
  • Flexibility for different mount height options, or even bell mount options.
  • Half the price of a UTC-xii, 2/3rds the price of an LWTS-LR

With some closing thoughts, having used thermal clip-ons for years, and living by the Risley Prism is King mentality, this is the first unit that absolutely blows me away with its capability in light of not having it. Comparing it to my UTCxii, it’s about 90% of the image quality, less than half the cost, and has loads of features the UTCxii could only dream about. Not having to deal with NUC’ing a device is turning out to be an amazing feat, and being able to protect the objective by closing the flap and also preserving battery life (because it turns off) is game changer (ew, I said it). If you’re in the market for a device that’s a decade newer than its nearest rival, look no further.

In summary, we are very pleased with this unit’s capability and feel we are just scratching the service on its capabilities. There is still a lot to be learned and we’re leaving that opened ended until we have significant time behind these units.

We have spots available on our waitlist and are not charging in advance of receiving these units. ETA is end-of-June, but the sky is blue and we see a path of having them much sooner than that.

Link to Product:
For you social media types, we plan to release more content, video, photos of this sucker via Instagram: @strictlyoffensivekit. We'd appreciate your feedback.

Questions? Feel to ask here or contact us directly.

Cheers,

Preston
214-744-3589
 
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WhereNow&How

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Fixed Focus: Yes, it’s fixed, albeit, at infinity. This means you will have usable images from 25 meters to beyond. If you find yourself needing this unit to be short range capable, it will of course work at ranges, of say, 15 meters, but the image will be a little fuzzy.
Excellent review. A game changing clip on for sure.

Regarding the 25 meters and below. Well if I just had to, I guess I could bust out a PTS 233. :LOL:
 

wigwamitus

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Regarding the collimation on the Tigs.

For ANY clipon, we need the net magnification of the clipon to be 1x. That's so our reticles will work completely. That means so we can use the hash marks on the reticles for holding. If a clipon was net 2x or otherwise, the hashmarks on the reticles would be "stretched" ... or if net 0.5x on the clipon then our hashmarks would be compressed. And that's true for NV clipons and Thermal clipons.
The reason some thermal clipons have digital magnification is
1 - The thermal clipon might also be usable as a thermal weapons sight and have reticles included in the clipon for that. In the TWS role, it makes sense to have the unit be magnified.
2 - For observation. By adding 2x digital to the thermal clipons, the user can use digital magnification to go beyond what his day scope magnification can reach, for purposes of observing and then reduce back down to 1x for shooting.
==
So, its not essential to collimate the Tig-IR6z+ at all the non 1x magnifications, UNLESS you plan to shoot it at those magnifications. For observing its fine to not be collimated.
But if you want to range, like with a Radius or RAPTAR, then it still might be necessary to collimate at other magnifications, in order to make sure that the center of the reticle does not shift when the digital magnification changes. We don't know if that happens yet. But we will certainly test for that to find out.
The testing of this feature, to include the save/restore of the 6 saves for six rifles, will require some time/effort and we haven't even started with that yet. But stay tuned, we will get it done.

==
Cores

These are FLIR Boson 640 cores, and to my knowledge, these are the first commercially available 640 Boson cores, we can weapon mount. Some of us have been waiting for those for 4 years, if I'm counting correctly. We thought we would get them shortly after the merger with Armasight, after the SHOT 2017 IIRC. But non-such ever happened.

==
If you are sure you want one, please let us know and we will put you on the "committed" list to reserve your place in line. We have 10 more units inbound after these first two we already got.
And if any questions, let us know and we will try to answer or get answers from our contacts at Andres.

Right now, it looks like these might be 80% of the capability of the UTC 640s at half the price, or 150% of the capability of the LWTS-LR at 2/3rds of the price, so they are looking pretty good right now.

More to come ...
 

TheHorta

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I’ve gotten much better/faster at “collimating” Tigger. It’s a hassle having to do it for each gun and each digital magnification setting, but it’s not the end of the world.

I’ve been using it almost every night. The novelty and infatuation phase have now worn off and I think I have a fair appraisal of the Tig’s strength and “weaknesses.”

Under stressful conditions, Tigger’s image quality fades a little more than the UTC. Under perfect conditions, the UTC still reigns supreme as the Image Quality King, but only by a small margin — I’ve mentioned the same “90%” figure as SOK.

Once environmental conditions degrade, and every thermal along with it, the Tig has a little more difficulty hanging with the UTC and begins to lag behind — I’d subjectively say it drops to 80%, give or take.

The Tig lacks TracIR, but that’s a moot point for 99% of potential customers.

Setting aside the biggest negative of the Tig (collimation), which isn’t a real problem, for me, the whole package and what you get for the money is where the Tig takes over and crushes the UTC. The flip-cap on/off, auto-NUC, 16650 battery support (~8 hours on a single charge!!!) meaning NO MORE PFUTZING WITH EXTERNAL BATTERY PACKS, ultra-short rail space consumption, variable height mounting options, extremely useful digital magnification, etc all add up to the TIG being the most well-rounded thermal clip-on available to the consumer market.

Once my Voodoo-M arrives, I plan to have a 5-way clip-on comparison bonanza!

CRATOS
UTC-X
UTC-Xii
TigIR-6M
LWTS-LR
Voodoo-M
and Something “Special”
and Something “Specialer”
 

CTM1

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My experience with clip-ons is limited to a FLIR T-50 and a UTM both of which had objective lenses that could be focused and both were limited as to the optical magnification they could be used with. Now I know this unit does not have this feature but the UTC variants do and you had mentioned that in the vid. With that said I noticed as you were going up in the optical zoom the clarity at just that limited distance degraded. Can that be cleaned up in some way or is that it?
 

SkyScrapin

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My experience with clip-ons is limited to a FLIR T-50 and a UTM both of which had objective lenses that could be focused and both were limited as to the optical magnification they could be used with. Now I know this unit does not have this feature but the UTC variants do and you had mentioned that in the vid. With that said I noticed as you were going up in the optical zoom the clarity at just that limited distance degraded. Can that be cleaned up in some way or is that it?

@CTM1 Did you want it in 4K?

Between the UTCxii and the Tig, clarity can degrade for a number of reasons - conditions and day optic limitations for the most part though. Even with the UTCxii, I can see pixels as I increase magnification and it eventually gets fuzzy (they all do), and that's also seen in the Tig. A manual focus will help clear some of that up, but at the distances I was testing at, I'd say we're splitting hairs. To the other point, this was during sunset, sort of. There was 30 minutes of light left before pitch black and the surrounding environment typically needs an hour to optimize thermal imagine by allowing vegetation to cool off from the warm sun.

Unfortunately, recording tools don't translate what we actual see, apples-to-apples. Some of the pallets, particularly the red ones, seem to kill the camera clarity, but what I was seeing was a clean and clear image through the day scope. Further, the camera I use focuses on the center point of the image, and you can tell thats the case by the display letters also being fuzzy. In reality, they're perfectly distinguished letters through the day optic.

With any clip-on, you're magnifying a defined amount of display pixels, and you're going to see degradation of image as that defined amount shrinks as you gain magnification. It's part of the tradeoffs with air cooled thermal imaging.
 
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CTM1

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Just an FYI based on your 4k comment I think you taken my post as criticism of your vid which it was not. I understand how thermal works and how atmospheric conditions impact thermal. I also understand how what we see in the vid is different that what someone is seeing in the eye box.

The question in my mind was there a way to get a better focus at distance with this unit given it does not have a front focus. I guess I was wondering if there was something in the menu functions that would take the place of the front focus.

Again, my experience has been limited to the two devices I mentioned previously and my shots have all been limited, mostly 100 yards and under. I think it comes down to me having a misguided expectation of the thermal units that were designed for longer distances. Thanks for taking the time for a more detailed explanation.
 
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SkyScrapin

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@CTM1 Nope, didn't take it as criticism, I was curious because I had a scratch my head moment this morning. Ironically, what I thought I had typed was "Did you watch it in 4K" but my fingers typed something different, and yours truly didn't spell check. My b!

I loaded up the YT video this morning, and as part of the learning process, it uploaded 480, 720, 1080, then got into the HD settings. When I first viewed it at 1080, I was stumped because it wasn't close to what I was seeing in person, and thought you may had done the same. Once it rendered in 4K the image cleaned up further. All good - always learning.

There does not appear to be a setting which allows the fixed focus to be adjusted. I'm not sure if it's a SW related deal or a HW related deal, but I would tend to think it's a physical attribute internal to the device.
 

Eliteuas

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FYI fellas I have no clue what the two above comments actually mean, I just heard some hooligans say those phrases and it sounded HIPPITY-HOP so I’m attempting to keep up with the timeZ 😂😂😂😂😂😂
 
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WhereNow&How

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First time I heard that song a dude in a tiny kayak was out in the ocean fishing with a handline and caught and landed a huge ass fish as big as his kayak. Dam fish pulled him all over the place, but he won then released the fish.

That was the song he had put with the vid. Very appropriate.

Here is the original version.
 
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wigwamitus

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Steps to rifle mount tig-IR 6z+ thermal clipon

1 - Afix mounting plate to bottom of clipon. 8 tiny screws, torque to 15 i/p. Used 36mm plate. Also have 38mm plate.

2 - Afix mount to mounting plate, 2 larger screws, torque to 20 i/p

(I made up the torqueage as I went along, but sent in questions to andres regarding torquage specs, will update based on data received)

3 - Mount clipon to rail in front of day scope.

All seems nice and tight.

Next, will wait for sun to go down, then will collimate clipon to day scope. Day scope is in sphur 34mm center mount.
 

wigwamitus

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Summary of last night's activities:

collimated Tig to L&S mk6 3-18x T3 on bolt gun per above pic.

Started at 11yds.
Target was 12x8" alum foil, shinny side out.
First rd was 8 inches low 4 inches left. POA was center of alum foil target
Went in and adjusted down (thinking it would move POI up) by 4 clicks, fired, enlarged hole. Adjusted down 4 more clicks, rd impacted below ragged hole.
Went up 16 clicks and right 8 clicks. Rd was low but centered on center of target (I could see the impact points, they were hot).

Went up 16 more clicks and was about 2 inches low.

Went to 25 yds, impact made ragged hole with prior shot.

Went to 50yds, impact now 1 inch low.

Went to 75yds, made ragged hole with prior shot.

Added 1x1" piece of electrical tape to center of target. First two rds at 100yds, both hit within .75 IPHY on the tape. I called it good. This was on 1x digital magnification in the Tig. Pressed "4" (the save button backing out a saving each step of the way.

Then did some looking around, could see cows out in pasture to the North 277yds and could see deer on hill to SW 164yds, etc.

Will go out again tonight and focus on side by side pics with Tig, UTC-320 and UTC-640 (aka UTC-x).

==
FYI, I talked to @Night_Assassin last night. He tried the no shooting method of collimating the Tig, maybe he can come in here and share his experiences with that. I'm "olde school" so I used the shooting method :D
 
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Choid

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Just to confirm, you saved after each adjustment, not at the end?
 

wigwamitus

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I did a mixture, at first I saved after each adjustment, for the first 2-3 shots, then I said, "Hecque, I don't need to do that" and just kept it on the adjustment menu as I fired and shifted positions, etc. So probably last 5 or so shots no save until end.
 

Night Assassin

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So as Wig mentioned I was using and getting the Tig dialed in last night also. I’m a left handed Pollock so I do things differently.
My tactic was I set my rifle in my tripod and locked it in place on the target. Knowing my day scope is accurate I put it on the center of target.
Put the Tig on in front of scope and adjusted the image until it was centered on target.
I only saved my settings on 1X as that is where I’ll mostly use this and use magnification of day scope to allow (holds) to be accurate.
So far I’m very pleased with the Tig.
it can handle about 10X in my opinion, maybe 12.
Last night it was raining so I’ll be testing more tonight.
 

Choid

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Wait till y'all get hip to Jay's trick with the digital mag. Adds another level. Of course, I've never seen a tig, but in theory...
 
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Night Assassin

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I will add how impressed I am on one other thing ..
So most of my rifles are in a 1.5” mount, that is what I zeroed the Tig on.
It was lined up perfect with the scope .
I decided to put it on my .22 that’s in a chassis and it is lower by a lot.
Say 3/8” lower .
I mounted it knowing it was high but let’s try it .
Using the same settings from my center fire on the Tig, dialed my dope for 200 yards on the rim fire , 7 Mils and impact on a 66% IPSC first try.
Very impressive.
Here is a pic of the offset
 

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shoots100

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Left handed Pollock here too and I'd like to know if your way of collminating without shooting to confirm is coyote MOA acceptable at 1x out to 100 yards ?
Not that I can afford the tig right now, it's just that I've never had any type of clip on give acceptable accuracy after removal and re attachment that I could trust without confirming zero.
SJC
 
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wigwamitus

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Summary of experiences with and thoughts about Tig-IR over past 2 nights.

We have the following tools with which to optimize the image at any given point in time:
1 - brightness button (button 1, momentary tap)
2 - filter selection (boost filter versus non-boost filter, button 2, press and hold)
3 - NUC (button 1, press and hold, or flip down objective cover and flip back up)

Over last two nights I've experienced both higher winds and rain, thus some challenges for image optimization which was perfect as this gave opportunity to see the unit's ability to function in these conditions.

On this first night, as reported above, I was able to collimate the unit to my L&S Mk6 3-18x T3 on 762(22) Rem700/Criterion/Bravo gun which I usually shoot off RRS tripod when overwatching calving cows.
Since then I've remounted it about 8 times and last night shot a coon at about 90 yds thru three layers of vegetation up in a tree. So the Tig can kill stuff, even after multiple remounts.

So, in wind and rain conditions we are fighting "washout" meaning it becomes more difficult to distinguish terrain elements.
Usually washout does not affect critters so much as they are much hotter, but washout can make the terrain harder to see and you loose orientation and ability to judge distances based on terrain features.
So with the tig, the first line of defense against washout is turning down the brightness.
The second line of defense against washout is filter selection. Andres calls these "filters" whereas often thermal users call them "pallets".
For each filter, there are two versions, one call "boost" and one which is not called boost. Like "Black Hot" (BH) and Boost Black Hot" (BBH).

We have a question in about this, but my guess is that the boost version has a different "gain" setting in the core/sensor.
So, by toggling back and forth between BH (Black Hot) and BBH (Boost Black Hot) I was able to have another lever to adjust image.

And of course nucing, last night I found it useful to do a few manual nucs, to optimize image.
Normally all my thermals are manual nuc, and I don't even think about doing manual nucs, like shifting gears on a vehicle, it just happens :).
But there were a few circumstances were manual nucs helped with the Tig.

So armed with those tools, I was able to get some pretty good images with the Tig and I'll show some examples below.

Other aspects of the unit that stood out, compared to my UTCs I was running side by side:

a - Tiny size of Tig, 4.5 inches long. The smallest clipon of any sort I've used so far.

b - Very fast start up. I didn't time it, but by the time you start a UTC wait for it to load and the do the first manual nuc, I'd guess its about 6 seconds. The Tig seems like sub-second. Very fast.

c - Uses 16650 batteries which I was using, and I ran it for about 8 hours before I got a "blinking" battery light, which I think means, we are loosing voltage. I plan to use it until it shuts down, to go thru the whole cycle.

d - The positions of the buttons are different from any other unit I've used, 2 on the left side, one on the top and 1 on the back.
Working on memorizing which buttons to what and best way to postion my hand for each. I'll just say I'm working thru the learning curve on the buttons !

e - The menu items are very intuitive and well documented. Even though the manual was translated from German, its short and helpful.

I will continue to test the unit at least for the rest of this week. If any questions, please ask.

==
Ok now for some pics:

All pics are of cattle at 277 to 330 yards, through L&S Mk6 3-18x T3 scope. Optical magnification on the day scope at 3x unless otherwise stated.
Digital magnification on Tig is as shown in the image, otherwise 1x. Clipons used in the comparison are

Andres Tig-IR 6z+
BAE UTC-x (640)
BAE UTC (320)

Conditions were 20-25 MPH winds except where noted once it started raining. These shots were taken over two different nights in three different sessions, but each group where taken together, side by side in the same conditions.

Be aware I'm out there getting blown around by the wind, trying to hold the phone cam at the correct eye relief and line it up behind the day scope in 3 dimensions to take the pic.
And I sucque at it :D So, these images are an order of magnitude worse than what you see with the MK1EB.

Tig
51100996916_c673d4f892_k.jpg



Tig, 2x digital 3x optical net magnification 6x
51101069704_faff3f0891_k.jpg



UTC(320)
51101787785_40aae7db8b_k.jpg


UTC-x
51101526243_8a136a3ce2_k.jpg


==
Tig, rain 2x digital, 3x optical, 6x net magnification
51101046064_a016ad2953_k.jpg


==
Learnings on image:

Adjusting brightness helps alot, so don't be bashful about tapping the #1 button.

Switching between BBH and BH helps also.
One feature that I like is the ability to turn on and off a number of menu items, such as the "filters". So by default, I would use BBH, BH, WH and BWH (boost black hot, black hot, white hot and boost white hot).

Nucing helps, especially after first starting up the unit. Just like with any other thermal, nuc the sh^t out of it !!

More to come !!!
 

wigwamitus

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Tonight in the rain ... with rain drops on the optical train ...

I enabled 4x digital mode, so this 4x digital with 3x on the day scope, net 12x ... cow at 300-ish ...

51102218978_72d2ff767f_k.jpg


Thru two lines of vegetation ...

Its interesting that the combination of digital and optical magnification seems clearer than pure optical magnification. This is the first thermal clipon I've used where that was true. I've heard a theory that this is due to some "magic" in the image processing and it seems possible.

==
And here's another image of the rifle setup I'm testing with

51101978191_4f2021785a_k.jpg


Shortly after the above image of the cow, the Tig finally died. Got about 8.5 hrs of runtime off the two 16650s.

More to come ...

==
Later, here's everything the same, except this is the utc320 on 12x (above 10x not a strong point for the utc320) optical.

51103147170_128547af9b_k.jpg
 
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Squibbler

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What is the FOV of the Tig unit? Also when power off does it convert back to default settings or does it stay on current settings (brightness/contrast settings, auto nuc on/off)?
 

wigwamitus

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8 degrees horizontal
Settings are retained from power off/on

This is the only thermal I've ever had where I haven't turned off the auto nuc. I HATE autonuc ... I probably sold the LWTS-LR primarily because it would NOT remember that I turned off the auto-nuc (you might even remember that :D ) ... but .. the autonuc on this one makes no sound and happens so fast you are only aware of it if you wait for it.
And you can still manually nuc anytime you want.
 
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WhereNow&How

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1617855379156.png

For a minute, I thought maybe a calf with the Scours got a little too close.

That would be what you call, a real "sh^t show" :LOL:
 
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Squibbler

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(you might even remember that :D )

I do remember.... And had the same complaint.

Some clarification on Tig....

Image size doable for viewing from rear end for dedicated spotter role? I.e not like UTC

Can this unit act as stand alone? If so reticle type....First focal? Mil based?
 

wigwamitus

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... Image size doable for viewing from rear end for dedicated spotter role? I.e not like UTC ...
Tig is a clipon, like the UTC, demaginified on the rear. BUT, there is an available 3.5x screw on magnifier that fits back there to enable use as a spotter.

... Can this unit act as stand alone? If so reticle type....First focal? Mil based? ..
Negatif, euros don't allow themselves to sell thermals with reticles commercially.
 
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wigwamitus

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Ok, we heard answer to our question about gain/contrast and the "boost" palettes and manufacturer confirmed our theory that the boosted palettes do incorporate a higher gain (contrast) setting and added, "sometimes it might be too much and you should back down to the unboosted palette." And that tracks with my experience. So these boosted palettes are one of our image controls and toggling between the unboosted and boosted versions is a useful activity for image optimization.
 

wigwamitus

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Went out last night to do more focused examination of white hot and black hot palettes and to compare to "boost" version of each to the "non boost" version of each across the digital magnification range of 1x, 2x and 4x.
I had the L&S mk6 3-18x scope on 3x at all times. The cattle are at 300-ish yards. The conditions were clear with low wind, so good thermal conditions.
Note in Andres terminology "boost" means "a higher level of gain (AKA contrast)"

Palette abbreviations are

WH = White Hot
BWH = Boost White Hot
BH = Black Hot
BBH = Boost Black Hot

WH 1x digital = 3x net magnification
51105671855_ec6292dfe1_k.jpg


==
WH 2x digital = 6x net magnification
51104561656_64ec7054f6_k.jpg


==
WH 4x digital = 12x net magnification
51105670785_55ea0dacc6_k.jpg

Note rear end of cow pointed at us, head of cow turned to our right, we can see hot spots for nose and eye of cow

==
BWH 1x digital = 3x net magnification
51105669900_2234510e47_k.jpg


==
BWH 2x digital = 6x net magnification
51104654957_442e1f32c0_k.jpg

Note the intervening vegetation. We are looking thru two lines of over your head vegetation along the creek banks. When overwatching the cattle in the alfalfa patch,
I'm always looking thru vegetation. This is the clearest spot. Other spots are thicker with real trees also. Shooting thru these you always wonder if your round will bounce off a branch or stalk and I'm sure some do.

==
BWH 4x digital = 12x net magnification
51104794793_67687f4e5a_k.jpg

Note how in this case, the boosted palette (called a 'filter' in Andres speak) is too much and the un-boosted filter shown above has better image, so this is a case where we would use the un-boosted filter.

==
BH 1x digital = 3x net magnification
51104653077_3aafc1383a_k.jpg

Now to repeat the above sequences with the BH and BBH filters

==
BH 2x digital = 6x net magnification
51104556826_3a62a9d9ee_k.jpg


==
BH 4x digital = 12x net magnification
51104651387_1f64338bcf_k.jpg


Note this image is clearer than the previous two, in part that's due to difficulties in taking these pics with hand-held camera.
But note the ears of the cow are visible and the head has good shape, etc.

==
BBH 1x digital = 3x net magnification
51104554901_c6fb6732fd_k.jpg

Switching over to the boosted filter

==
BBH 2x digital = 6x net magnification
51105664085_7ac1c55ccb_k.jpg


==
BBH 4x digital = 12x net magnification
51104789483_ffaa53e768_k.jpg


==
Ok, now both Brandon and Jay have indicated they would be shooting with the 2x + 4x + 6x digital magnification on the Tig's. Before I got the Tig, I did not plan to do that.
The reason is with any magnification other than 1x, a clipon converts your day scope into an SFP, meaning you either need to
1 - Dial for elevation for every shot beyond your PBR
2 - Recalibrate your reticle holds for each digital magnification other than 1x
3 - Only shoot within your PBR (which is roughly 250-ish for my 308 bolt guns, though I can use "critter is the reticle" out to 300yds, beyond 300yds, I need to use the scope reticle

Thing is, on my bolt guns, I use holding reticles and I basically never dial, except when zeroing. In part, that's because I use rifle mounted range finders on my bolt guns and when ranging with a rifle mounted range finder
you need your day scope to be at your zero stop, where you co-witnessed the laser of your range finder. So if you would dial, then for every shot at a different distance, you have to dial back down to the
zero stop to range and then back up to the distance to shoot. Down and up and down and up, for every shot. That's why I use no-dial reticles.
I'd have to change how I shoot to use the 2x, 4x, 6x digital magnifications with the tig. I'd have to revert to the "dial down dial up" for every shot and that's at least putting up a mental barrier for me :D
As I've been a no-dial shooter for the last 4-5 years.
That said, the tig does have the property, that the digital magnifications look better than cranking up the day scope magnification. So, that property creates the conundrum. I have not resolved that conundrum
in my head yet :D
Note, it is possible to use the digital magnification on the tig for observing and then dial back down to 1x for shooting, that would be another way to use it. So digital magnification for improved PID,
but then back to 1x for shooting. That method would fit into how I shoot now. But would not give Tig-Optimal image for shooting.

So it looks like I will be testing this unit for a few more days, so next I will head out to other pastures and do more long distance testing with the Tig, both for shooting and observing.


Ask if any questions and I will try to answer !!
 

Max_R

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Great review! Looking at the pictures, it appears that the Boost is not so much an increase of gain but rather an application of additional contrast enhancement + sharpening algorithms. I have to say that they do a very nice job with it. I may be wrong but it's the way it looks.
 

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Wig, dialing on the elevation turret has identical results as holding with the reticle... while digitally magnified, both are a no-go without doing the math to compensate for the digital magnification.
 

Choid

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Wig, dialing on the elevation turret has identical results as holding with the reticle... while digitally magnified, both are a no-go without doing the math to compensate for the digital magnification.
Pretty sure that isn't true.
 

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100% sure it is. The entire point of having turrets and reticle match (mil/mil or MOA/MOA) is that dialing and holding do exactly the same thing.
 

Choid

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100% sure it is. The entire point of having turrets and reticle match (mil/mil or MOA/MOA) is that dialing and holding do exactly the same thing.
You might want to explain how second focal plane scopes work then. They only match at one mag level. I'm honestly not sure about with the tig because you are focusing on a screen, but it should work more like an SFP scope.
 
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Evolution 9

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Yes, pointing at the screen is the difference.

Hopefully Wig will put some rounds on steel at 500+ yards tonight and set us straight.

I’m quite confident, but I’ve been quite confident and wrong so 🤷‍♂️
 

wigwamitus

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So, SFP scopes. Per my understanding, the center of the cross hairs of an SFP scope is always correct (once you're zerod), regardless of the magnification dialed on the scope. But the value of the hash marks on the reticle varies with respect to the magnification dialed on the SFP scope. And depending on your accuracy requirements, you can't assume that the ratio of the nominal magnification on the dial is exactly correlated to the ratio of the value of the hash marks at two different magnification levels. In theory, you should "calibrate" i.e. reverse engineer, the value of the hash marks at magnifications other than the magnification the factory tells you the hash marks are valid.
That said, dialing an SFP scope is always correct, regardless of magnification because when we dial, we are using the center of the cross hairs to aim with, we are not holding, period and the center of the cross hairs is always correct (once we are zero'd).

==
So, with the Tig, if we collimate the day scope at each digital magnification level on the tig that means we are aligning the center of the cross hairs with the real world so the center of the cross hairs will always be correct. However, as the magnification level increases the value of the hash marks we see in the day scope will decrease and again, we cannot assume (depending on our accuracy requirements) that value is decreasing by exactly the inverse of the nominal magnification on the tig. So in theory (if we are trying to shoot small targets) we need to calibrate (reverse engineer) our holds on our reticle at each (tig) magnification level at which we will shoot (this is assuming we are using an FFP day scope ... if we're using an SFP day scope, the problem is the same, there's just another dimension of variable.

So, clearly, dialing is the intended method of shooting with the Tig if using digital magnification !

==
And BTW, this phenomena is WHY clipons in general are 1x net magnification. I didn't always know that, but I wondered about it. But a few years ago I did figure it out. Clipons need to be 1x to preserve the values of the hash marks on our day scope reticles.

That said, most clips do use magnified lenses. But what they do is magnify a certain amount of the front end, like say 2x or 3x ... and then demagnify by the inverse of that amount on the rear end to offset the front end magnification producing net 1x magnification for the clipon (this is true for both NV and Thermal clipons). This allows reuse of lenses on the front that might also be used in other products such as TWS which would benefit from having magnification on the front end. The demagnification on the rear end also allows the day scope to start by looking at a much smaller screen, so that when you dial magnification on the day scope, you are loosing much less resolution than you would if the rear end was not demagnified.

So all these pieces and parts work together for various reasons to make clipons work the way they do ... and to me, the magic of clipons is really happening on the back end. There's a focusing lens back there, there is a demagnifying lens back there, and there's sometimes a set of prisms back there to give us prism collimation. The UTCs have all that and having all that optical capability back there produces their magic.
The LWTS-LR demagnifies in software, its 2x front end magnification, when in clipon mode, so its a 1x in clipon mode. But the LWTS-LR does have prism collimation and of course a focusing lens.

I'm pretty sure the Tig is demagnifying optically, but leaves out the prism collimation, hence we must manually collimate. But with saves for six different rifles, that goes a long way to removing the issue of lack of prism collimation. Like I only have 4 active rifles and 4 is less than 6 so I'm good !!!

==
... Really wish someone had a Tig locally so I could get some nice crisp shots through a scope ...

Aye, I know I sucque at pics, I promise to keep my software day job for now :D
 
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