Solid beginner's bolt gun for learning shoot long range?

[308pirate]

I'm just describing some differences.

In F-class you have nice wind flags to read and wind dummies just to the left and right of you, look down the scope and see the trends on the spotting disc's.

Vs - Field course or tactical, a kestrel to get wind speeds, often no wind flags, just you and the wind. Unless of course team mates are sharing the windage they used. Then there is all the positional and the shooting off of obstacles, your wind guess needs to be correct or you'll have a tough time of it. Plus the steel gets shot up and some of those are not so reactionary, when that happens you can't tell exactly where you hit on it half the time, so sometimes you assume you hit here but you really hit there, when you compensate and miss, and you see where you missed, then you have a better idea, but that miss was a zero.

On steel it's either a hit or miss, on F-class paper that same errant shot would likely result in at least some points.

""""Percentage wise"""", if you take two guys with equal ability, the guy with the cartridge that has the least wind drift will come out ahead, because nobody is perfect at guessing wind. You will see an anomaly once in a while, like a FTR shooter beating out open. That only proves everything went right for that guy on that day, and he's a very good shot and wind reader.

Recoil - less recoil helps when in positional, etc. Some guys like recoil, lol??? Whatever, the less I have to fight recoil the better. Let's play the Macho Macho man song for these studs.

While all of what you say is true regarding wind, none of what you said negates that the difference in drift between normal 30 and 26 caliber cartridges is actually pretty damned small at distances where 95% of the shooting occurs. That cannot be argued. The ballistics don't lie.

Recoil, yes, less is always better so long as your bullet has enough energy to register a hit on steel.

 

[patriot07]

The 6.5 recommendations are based on the idea that he will eventually shoot farther than 600.

If he’s truly never, ever going to shoot past 600, then a 223 will do. If he’s going to shoot further eventually like almost everyone does, then a 6.5 has a distinct advantage over 308 at the longer distances.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If you're shooting 600 and less, the 223, please...

Much further (700 and plus), the 223 won't cut it, a 6.5 is good. I use the .260 and prefer it over the 6.5cm for a couple of reasons; but you don't need to dig that deep here, and the 6.5CM will probably serve you better, if and when you actually need to shoot beyond 700.

You can use the 6.5 at shorter distances, but it's just not economical to do much of it.

308 is a special case, a bit obsolete in the eyes of many, and yes, I just bought one within the last year. Our choices do NOT need to pass the review of anyone but ourselves.

I don't shoot the more vigorous disciplines for reasons of age and health. I have usually considered the implements most concoct for these ventures to be very complex, heavy, and particularly costly; the predictable outcome of any arms race.

My own preference has always been for simplicity, and I think the better approach for vigorous activities should really look a lot more like a hunting rifle. I know they can be competitive because I once, a long time ago (1997), took 4th in a state sniper championship finals with a very basic Model 70 Featherweight 30-06 shooting 168gr FGMM. It was nothing like a PRS match, I couldn't repeat it today, and that M70 was probably enchanted to begin with.

Think both inside and outside the box, a bunch of popular things simply means that the competition will be closer.

If my life tomorrow were to depend on my ability to rain down pain from afar, I'd honestly want that M70. But that's very unlikely, I'm probably not personally equal to the task, and we're all a lot better off for that.

Keep it simple. You'll thank yourself later. Take caution with the man who only owns one gun, he probably knows how to shoot it damned well.

My life is winding down now. I've been making a lot of ammunition since the year's beginning for my Garand, the AR's, the 308, and the 260. Simple wisdom dictates that I probably already have more ammunition than I could shoot in the remainder of my lifetime, no matter what situation may appear.

I think I'll just get on with shooting it more, and talking about it less.

Greg

 

[steve123]

While all of what you say is true regarding wind, none of what you said negates that the difference in drift between normal 30 and 26 caliber cartridges is actually pretty damned small at distances where 95% of the shooting occurs. That cannot be argued. The ballistics don't lie.

Recoil, yes, less is always better so long as your bullet has enough energy to register a hit on steel.

There isn't a huge difference up closer but there is a difference. That might matter or it might not matter, it depends doesn't it.

None??? It's still percentages, they are just smaller percentages. Or more X's instead of 10's, or more hits on smaller steel. The percentages go more in favor of the cartridge with the least wind drift the farther the bullet gets away from the barrel.

95% of where the shooting occurs, that would be totally dependent on what the COF's are and how far out the distances are. The match I described earlier in this thread had a 300Y 4" wide popper as it's closest target, it was missed plenty on windy days, 1.08" per click at that distance, just two clicks worth misread in wind and your off the edge. In a 10mph wind my 6 load requires .3 mil correction, my friends 308 requires .5 mils wind. In this match some 4-500 steels were involved but most of the rest from 600Y to 900Y, a 1080Y, and one at 1450Y. Some steel was very small, some medium sized, some large. It was the fact that we were shooting off the edge of a steep rise and that we hardly ever had low winds. Also we had a 140 degree zone to work in, a steel could be way left and way right on the same stage. So in this case most of the targets/95%??? were more distant than some would expect but it was normal to us.

One day I watched that instructor that won the recent specialized match debate whether he should dial from 5-6 mils of wind, he then missed, the other 308 shooters missed, while I held off 1.8 mil and hit both shots, it was windier when he shot but his best guess was way harder than mine, the 308 dance occurred, aim right, miss left, compensate, then hit right, because a tiny bit of change of speed in wind can net a large difference in wind hold. That was on the 1080Y steel.

When I was at a F-class match and manning the pit I happened to be next to Lester B. He had just set a record (local only??? I'm unsure) with his 6mmPPC at a 300Y F-class match using his 100Y winning BR load with 68gr bullets. So yes, in this case, a national BR champion, good wind reading skills, and a rifle that shot in the .1's, did the deed for the day. Could he have set a record at 400Y, how about 500Y, with that same rifle and ammo, sure if it was perfectly calm out, doubtful otherwise.

Me, I need all the help I can get, I don't want anymore challenge than is already present shooting a 6mm, even closer in.

 

[Upstate43]

That's not a trending mentality, that's just the firearms community in general. At least it's what I've seen over the last 30 odd years. Actually, it applies to most commodities. If not, we'd still be all driving Model T Fords, instead of the all the new 4 cylinder, dual scroll turbos with Car Play and on board Navigation.

But again, if that makes you feel more comfortable in your logic and reasoning that it's just a trend...<shrug>

Okay, but continuing with this car analogy: Do you need the latest and most expensive sports car in order to go to trackdays and get proficient at technical driving? A lot of people would say: "no." In fact, a lot of people advocate getting somewhat older car because it offers a cheaper cost of entry into that hobby, which allows novices to focus more of their financial resources on instruction and practice.

The same mentality applies to .308. You don't need 6.5cm to get into PRS. And there are arguably other cartridges and rifles which are cheaper to practice with during the early stages of marksmanship.

The new shooter is going to have a lot of trial and error to work through as his/her skills mature. 6.5CM isn't going to magically speed up that development process, nor is .308 going to seriously hinder that process.

 

[MarinePMI]

Okay, but continuing with this car analogy: Do you need the latest and most expensive sports car in order to go to trackdays and get proficient at technical driving? A lot of people would say: "no." In fact, a lot of people advocate getting somewhat older car because it offers a cheaper cost of entry into that hobby, which allows novices to focus more of their financial resources on instruction and practice.

The same mentality applies to .308. You don't need 6.5cm to get into PRS. And there are arguably other cartridges and rifles which are cheaper to practice with during the early stages of marksmanship.

The new shooter is going to have a lot of trial and error to work through as his/her skills mature. 6.5CM isn't going to magically speed up that development process, nor is .308 going to seriously hinder that process.

 

[Upstate43]

You're the one who claimed to be done with the conversation, twice.

Now you're dropping meme's instead of logical responses.

Maybe you should follow your own advice...

 

[MarinePMI]

LOL!