SR-25 E2 CC vs. SR-25 E2 PC

[David4570]

I an looking for some advice from those Hiders with first hand experience with Knight's 308s. The CC has a lighter profiled 16' chrome lined barrel (8.4lb.s) and the PC has the heavier non-chrome lined barrel. Prices are the same from Knights.
I asked them about the difference in accuracy because I figured the chrome lining would give a longer, less maintenance needed, life. I was told the PC "is a little heavier but you are definitely giving up between .5 to 1.5 MOA, especially when it gets warm".
Does that sound right to the shooters of the Hide?

I also would like to know how reliable this 308 is without an adjustable gas block. I understand reliability is one of the Knight's best attributes but I hope to run this rifle with and without my AAC 7.62 6DN can. For about the same money I note the Seekins SP-10M and fully tricked out JP LRP-107 have adjustable GBs with the same or better accuracy (all other things being equal). Are the last two even close to being as reliable in adverse conditions?

 

[VegasHKShooter]

I can only speak for my ACC, which is a lighter weight, chrome lined Carbine. It shoots sub MOA with Federal GMM 168 AND 175. I have gotten close to my test target of .66moa. Not always. Normally I’m very, very consistent at .8-.9 moa. I have shot it quite warm, and it opens up a little, but it certainly does NOT get crazy and start stringing rounds all crazy. I have shot it with my SOCOM7.62RC2 and it has never, ever skipped a beat. The gun is not gassy. I have never, not once gotten burning in my eyes. It is amazing how KAC makes these guns shoot so well unsuppressed AND suppressed. I really mean that.

The KAC rifles are HELL on for reliable. Absolutely never an issue with any of mine.

Sample size of one, so keep that in mind.

 

[mgrs]

I had the ACC and EC. I have not fired an APC- the weight different between it and the CC is noticeable, but not as much as you would think.

My CC was just over 1" above for 5-round groups from the bench or prone and would open up just a little after a couple strings. I'd say it was an honest 1-1.2 rifle until it got too warm. You can probably find the threads on AR15.com, but KAC industry reps are very open about what to expect from their systems and this level of performance is average or slightly better than expectations.

My EC was much tighter- closer to .6-.7 and possibly better but also weighed a couple pounds more and had a massive barrel profile. I would consider it (now out of production) as a more comparable product to the OBR and other heavier precision carbines.

I found both to be reliable and well-tuned. I do not have experience with the other systems you mentioned, but they are optimized for precision whereas the KACs are built to a broad range of performance requirements.

I would think of them exactly as they are named- CC as a heavy carbine that can be pressed into use as a precision carbine and the PC as a precision carbine that can be pressed into use as a heavy fighting carbine.

Another thing to consider is the engagement envelope for a 16" .308. With 168 gr, it's already going to be tough approaching 800 and at low elevation or poor wind conditions, is a bit like playing roulette . With 175s, it's more doable but definitely a feels like a different animal from even the same caliber in a 24" barrel.

I came to the conclusion that the CC would get me to the realistic limit of consistent .308 carbine performance with an acceptable level of precision and gain a little more versatility over the PC.

 

[Potss]

PC for accuracy for sure.

 

[David4570]

Thanks for the feedback.
I'm thinking the extra half pound for the KAC PC may be worth it especially when the barrel starts heating up.

Do any of you know how much the 16" JP and the same Seekins weigh?

 

[The DFC]

If you go through JP rifle builder I believe it gives you an estimated weight of build at end. Not sure how accurate it is.

 

[David4570]

You were right DFC. I didn't notice when I did my fantasy JP build but the weight is in small print at the bottom. 9.6 lbs is the predicted weight.

Now I wonder whether the weight penalty is that big a deal?
JP-9.6
Seekins-9
KAC PC-9, CC-8.4
But the KACs are 16" and the others are 18" --

 

[mgrs]

You were right DFC. I didn't notice when I did my fantasy JP build but the weight is in small print at the bottom. 9.6 lbs is the predicted weight.

Now I wonder whether the weight penalty is that big a deal?
JP-9.6
Seekins-9
KAC PC-9, CC-8.4
But the KACs are 16" and the others are 18" --

You just need to answer what you want to do with it. If this rifle will spend most of its time prone, benched, or otherwise supported delivering strings of precision fire on point targets, you might be happier in the end with a system like the Seekins or JP that is designed and optimized for that use. I do not have first hand experience with either of them, but would consider them more direct competitors to something like an KAC APR or LT OBR than the CC or PC.

The KACs would probably be more reliable. There's a chance the others would deliver tighter groups. It's hard to make absolute statements when some combinations just don't want to work for various reasons. The current SR25 is a far cry from the M110 and represents years of carful incremental improvement by a company who puts a lot of RDTE into a long term, evolutionary product line.

 

[oubeta]

I would stay clear of all KAC products. Their quality control on the civilian side is terrible. I've been dealign with them for the past year and I can tell you they don't care about you or your problems unless you are military. Get a JP, OBR, or GAP, or anything but a Knights. I have 9 of their rifles right now and they are cool, but they aren't worth the $$. Took me a while to realize that.
If you have issues with your gun, good luck getting it fixed right. They will just slap a new bolt in it and send it back.

 

[David4570]

Well oubeta, I read your comments after placing an order today for the PC. I fully expect it to perform reliably as reported by most — especially as the current models are reported by most to be more reliable than the earlier ones. You certainly must have been pretty enamored with KAC to have purchased so many of their rifles, no?

Also, I live in Florida and can be on their door step to encourage better service if needed. If all else fails, I’m sure I can get my money out of it if I’m not fully satisfied.

 

[oubeta]

I've been a long time supporter of KAC, but I'm done with them. I have a SR15 that has had to go back 4 times. It's there right now actually. It will not cycle without a suppressor on it.
My cam pins on my other SR-15 had massive grooves in it. I checked my factory 300blk SBR a few days ago and the cam pin on it has a massive groove in it. Hopefully yours were heat treated properly. They won't let you talk to any of the techs to explain the problem. They just toss in a new BCG and send it back without test firing it.

If you paying that much for a gun, you should be able to pick up the phone and talk to someone about the issues your having. Your only option is to talk to the receptionist who doesn't know anything about the issues your having. She can only relay the problem back to their 'gunsmiths'. There is no way for you to talk to anyone directly other than her.

If you send your gun in and they get a military contract, prepare to pushed to the back of the line.

There are other options out there where you can actually

 

[KimberGuy]

David - you’ll be plenty satisfied with your SR25. For every one negative Nancy who has an issue with KAC, there are hundreds of users completely enamoured with their guns. The commercial SR25s, especially the E2 guns, are not the same as the .mil M110/Mk11 rifles, so keep that in mind when .mil users trash their issued weapons.

Regarding factory support, KAC has usually been extremely responsive for customer service. Head over to the ARFcom KAC industry forum. Several KAC employees in there regularly interact with members, and will help with any questions/concerns you have.

 

[David4570]

Thanks. KAC’s completely ambidextrous reliable operation (I upgraded charging handle to Ambi) was paramount to me assuming MOA or better accuracy would be nice.

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Can someone here please share Chrono measurements from the CC running FGMM 175gr ?

Thanks !

~ TP

 

[Mike_Honcho]

TP - for now I'd plug 2,550 into your solver and refine from there.

 

[GUNNER10]

I an looking for some advice from those Hiders with first hand experience with Knight's 308s. The CC has a lighter profiled 16' chrome lined barrel (8.4lb.s) and the PC has the heavier non-chrome lined barrel. Prices are the same from Knights.
I asked them about the difference in accuracy because I figured the chrome lining would give a longer, less maintenance needed, life. I was told the PC "is a little heavier but you are definitely giving up between .5 to 1.5 MOA, especially when it gets warm".
Does that sound right to the shooters of the Hide?

I also would like to know how reliable this 308 is without an adjustable gas block. I understand reliability is one of the Knight's best attributes but I hope to run this rifle with and without my AAC 7.62 6DN can. For about the same money I note the Seekins SP-10M and fully tricked out JP LRP-107 have adjustable GBs with the same or better accuracy (all other things being equal). Are the last two even close to being as reliable in adverse conditions?

I think the best example of the
SR25 these days is the CC. I think think there are a number of good rifles out there that compete well with the PC such as the MWS and HK, But not so much in the heavy carbine role. Its about the same weight as a Scar but is noticeably smoother shooting rifle.

While I have not been able to do any accuracy testing with mine, from all accounts they seem like solid 1 minute guns under a controlled rate of fire. Of course increased rates of fire will have an impact but based upon how far you are shooting and what you are shooting at, that may not really matter. I

As for reliability, although I don't have many rounds through my CC, I have never had an issue with any of the M110's that I have shot in the past. Personally speaking I am not a fan of adjustable gas blocks on AR's, I have only had problems suppressing my 13.5 MWS with a full size gemtech can. With Sandman K, its fine.

At the end of the day, both are great rifles,

 

[MTxTwelve]

Can someone here please share Chrono measurements from the CC running FGMM 175gr ?

Thanks !

~ TP

Here's a link to an ammo database for several variants of the SR25: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c2Sju3sBr5VHXxAjfH86MfVMUDEiQXP057sJlzUPUFU/edit#gid=0

I have personally run the following through my APC and received the following velocities (suppressed, KAC CRS Suppressor):
- FGMM 175gr - 2469 FPS
- FGMM 185gr - 2472 FPS
- Berger 175gr OTM - 2485 FPS

I currently run the Berger OTM and it is by far the most accurate and consistent factory ammo I've used. I cannot say enough good things about this stuff, but it is incredibly expensive.

As far as the APC vs. ACC debate, I personally wouldn't run the ACC in anything outside of 14.5" and it'll eat anything you throw at it. The ACC is more tuned for the "dual-purpose" carbine role and can excel at most anything inside of 600y. If you're looking to run a precision-based carbine, like I do, then the 16" APC is what you're looking for. Plus, the barrel profile of the APC has enough meat on it for you to ball-dimple it (Marvin Pitts, Nefarious Arms) and reduce the weight ~0.60 lbs. which puts it in the weight range of an ACC. The APC is very capable within 800y and you can tag IPSC targets out to ~1100y with the right ammo.

Here's a couple of photos of my dimpled APC:

SR25

K3

K3.1

 

[JRaven]

Here's a link to an ammo database for several variants of the SR25: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c2Sju3sBr5VHXxAjfH86MfVMUDEiQXP057sJlzUPUFU/edit#gid=0

I have personally run the following through my APC and received the following velocities (suppressed, KAC CRS Suppressor):
- FGMM 175gr - 2469 FPS
- FGMM 185gr - 2472 FPS
- Berger 175gr OTM - 2485 FPS

I currently run the Berger OTM and it is by far the most accurate and consistent factory ammo I've used. I cannot say enough good things about this stuff, but it is incredibly expensive.

As far as the APC vs. ACC debate, I personally wouldn't run the ACC in anything outside of 14.5" and it'll eat anything you throw at it. The ACC is more tuned for the "dual-purpose" carbine role and can excel at most anything inside of 600y. If you're looking to run a precision-based carbine, like I do, then the 16" APC is what you're looking for. Plus, the barrel profile of the APC has enough meat on it for you to ball-dimple it (Marvin Pitts, Nefarious Arms) and reduce the weight ~0.60 lbs. which puts it in the weight range of an ACC. The APC is very capable within 800y and you can tag IPSC targets out to ~1100y with the right ammo.

Here's a couple of photos of my dimpled APC:

SR25

K3

K3.1

Very nice. My PC is at currently at Marvin’s getting the same treatment.

 

[MTxTwelve]

Very nice. My PC is at currently at Marvin’s getting the same treatment.

Awesome. Hope you like it!

 

[JRaven]

Awesome. Hope you like it!

As soon as I saw the PC I knew I was going to dimple it. I had the barrels on my LMT MWS & SR-15 done a few years back - for some reason it makes me smile.

What NF is that? 2.5-10x42 or 4-16x42?

 

[MTxTwelve]

As soon as I saw the PC I knew I was going to dimple it. I had the barrels on my LMT MWS & SR-15 done a few years back - for some reason it makes me smile.

What NF is that? 2.5-10x42?

For sure. Scope is the ATACR 4-16x42 F1/Tremor3.

 

[JRaven]

For sure. Scope is the ATACR 4-16x42 F1/Tremor3.

Very nice.

I have had great luck with 175 gr Federal Sierra MatchKing. And 168 gr Hornady TAP have been very consistent as well.

I should add with a SF SOCOM suppressor.

 

[JRaven]

Got my SR-25 PC back from milling and a fresh coat. I am now thinking I need to get some FDE furniture.

Just looking for free time to take it out.

 

[MTxTwelve]

Got my SR-25 PC back from milling and a fresh coat. I am now thinking I need to get some FDE furniture.

Just looking for free time to take it out.

Looks great