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SR 25 ec accuracy problems

M

mjmilovich091

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Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 14, 2012
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iowa
Got an SR 25 ec a month ago and cannot make it shoot well for the life of me. Nearly every load I run through it will shoot very well around .75 inches at 100 yards for the first 10 or so rounds, then it all goes to hell. The next group will usually have two touching and the rest of the three going where ever they want turning the group into at least 3 inches. Loads I have put through it include fggm 175gr the 7.62x51 variety, 168 fggm .308, (too hot for the rifle left ejector marks on the brass) Winchester match 168gr, and 7.62X51 American Eagle 168gr otm loaded for the M1a. The am eagle is the only thing that is consistent. It will shoot right around 1.5 inches no matter what. I have also ran multiple hand loads through it all with lapua brass, CCI br-2 primers, 175 grain sierra's, and IMR 4895 in charges from 39.0 to 41.5 in 3 tenths increments. I have eliminated optics as the problem, and its not like I am blazing rounds through it, a 5 round group take me at least 2 minutes then I let it cool completely before starting again. I clean the rifle thoroughly after every shooting session. Next trip out it starts all over again. Any ideas or suggestions?
Thank you
 
What optic are you using and how is it mounted? Could something be loose?

Do you regularly shoot consistently better groups with a different rifle?

Have you had a friend you know to be a good shot shoot to see if he gets the same results?
 
mjmilovich091 said:
Got an SR 25 ec a month ago and cannot make it shoot well for the life of me. Nearly every load I run through it will shoot very well around .75 inches at 100 yards for the first 10 or so rounds, then it all goes to hell. The next group will usually have two touching and the rest of the three going where ever they want turning the group into at least 3 inches. Loads I have put through it include fggm 175gr the 7.62x51 variety, 168 fggm .308, (too hot for the rifle left ejector marks on the brass) Winchester match 168gr, and 7.62X51 American Eagle 168gr otm loaded for the M1a. The am eagle is the only thing that is consistent. It will shoot right around 1.5 inches no matter what. I have also ran multiple hand loads through it all with lapua brass, CCI br-2 primers, 175 grain sierra's, and IMR 4895 in charges from 39.0 to 41.5 in 3 tenths increments. I have eliminated optics as the problem, and its not like I am blazing rounds through it, a 5 round group take me at least 2 minutes then I let it cool completely before starting again. I clean the rifle thoroughly after every shooting session. Next trip out it starts all over again. Any ideas or suggestions?
Thank you
Click to expand...

I bet this is your issue...don't clean after every range session. Some, if not most, barrels shoot better once they build up some fouling & copper and then settle in. Once this happens, only clean once the accuracy degrades.

AvsFan:confused:
 
The optic is a leupold vx r patrol 3x9 in a larue spr I did swap it out with a mk 4 6.5x20 that I know is functioning properly, the mk 4 was mounted in leupold rings.
Also I have had my brother shoot it, He and I try to shoot at least once a week, we are no pros but usually have no problem getting .5 moa out of our trgs.
 
I thought that as well. I took the flash hider off, not easy, they must use rockset and Hulk Hogan to put that thing on. The crown looked to be a beautiful 11 degree job, it did however have a lot of carbon build up on it. I removed it with a brass scrapper out of the Otis.
 
AvsFan, that is an interesting thought. I was going by the owners manual and they make it sound like it is a frail instrument. they say clean it every 20 rounds and never to fire it if the barrel is too warm to comfortably hold. I know not to get barrels on precision rigs overly hot but they are being a little cautious here I think. I will try your idea though. I have always been a clean barrel Nazi, but I have heard this before.
 
Tangodown911 said:
Bad barrel. It has stress in it. As it heats up it goes to shit. Is it a Krieger? I heard KAC had some bad Kriegers.
Click to expand...

I would not be able to tell you if it was a Krieger, the barrel has no markings. I wonder if KAC would acknowledge a bad lot of barrels and what sn range they would fall under.
 
mjmilovich091 said:
I would not be able to tell you if it was a Krieger, the barrel has no markings. I wonder if KAC would acknowledge a bad lot of barrels and what sn range they would fall under.
Click to expand...
At the price point their SR25's are at one would hope they would fix the problem. It is interesting that your reference groups are from bolt guns (TRG.) I assume your setup is stable and the crosshairs are steady ass you squeeze the trigger, but I wonder if some aspect of the difference might not be some difference between shooting a precision bolt gun and a Semiauto.

I guess it would have to be either the shooter or the gun. Perhaps try a lead sled. If it is the gun......

1) The cold bore shot and follow up are .75" after that the groups are 3" plus. A bad barrel has been suggested as a possible cause. Has anyone ever seen a barrel do this? I know there are a lot of things in the world of shooting I have not seen, but I can not see how a bad barrel could account for this.

2) It sounds like something is shooting loose. I do not know what that could be. I wonder how far you disassemble for cleaning after each range session. I am ignorant of what it might be but, might their be something that should/could be tighter upon your reassembly? The LMT MWS comes with a torque wrench that some shooters have found it necessary to upgrade before acheiving best accuracy.

3) If all else fails I guess you have to call the factory and see what they think.
 
I would think bad barrel.

Also don't clean so often and don't go scraping around at the crown with a sharp object.

FWIW, I had the same problem with an AR that I built. Would shoot okay for 5-10 rounds and then start vertically stringing, throwing shots 2-3" off to the side or whatever. Barrel swap fixed it.
 
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Comparing a Gasser to a bolt gun?

We see people make these posts everyday, 90% of the time it is a combo of unrealistic expectations along with Poor shooting fundementals/skills and a lack of equipment knowledge for propper install/setup.

The dude has a $400 scope with a shitty QD mount on a $5000 rifle and we are suposed to take his word its all the rifles fault? Was everything torqued? What distances are you shooting? Have you done a box test? How many rounds are down the tube? Are you a PROVEN shooter with the same equipment on another Semi-Auto gun? Your Handloads could be shitty? You are also cleaning it WAY to much. Don't even think of cleaning the bore untill you get accuracy or reliability issues. They shoot better dirty.

As far as not shooting fast enough to heat up the barrel, thats 100% bullshit. These guns are regularly used in Carbine and Semi-precision classes, shooting a SHIT load of rounds per day. Yes its a 5R cut barrel, but you are not going to hurt it shooting a normal semi/precision regime. SOCOM has been using a version of this gun (K1 & K2) for years and they are highly spoken of. Ive seen these guns shoot on full auto for a few mags and turn around and hit steel at 800m. Its not rocket science.


Make sure ALLL variables are accounted for, and get some good ammo like SWA or CC gas gun .308, and settle down and put 100-200 rounds through it.

What does the test target show?

I have NEVER seen a bad commerical SR15 or SR25 that wouldn't shoot with good ammo and a good shooter. Even their CL barrels shoot 1MOA typicaly.
 
mjmilovich091 said:
I would not be able to tell you if it was a Krieger, the barrel has no markings. I wonder if KAC would acknowledge a bad lot of barrels and what sn range they would fall under.
Click to expand...

You could always call them and ask. They have great CS and if you honestly think its the rifle, they will take a look at it and fix it, replace it or return to you as you sent it. Make sure you do your due dillegence beacuse there is a good chance its not the gun.
 
All good replies I appreciate your time and suggestions. I will give it another 500 rounds or so. Maybe it is me, I don't have a lot of experience with precision gas gun rigs. But how much different could it be?
 
I see where you are coming from, you don't know me from Adam. I don't consider myself to be an excellent marksman but I do eat, sleep, live, and breathe shooting and all things related. I agree with you, the scope is a bit shoddy for the rifle, I use it as a floater, it gets mounted on two or three rifles a month and has never shown any signs of a problem. As for the rifle it has had right about 300 rounds down the tube, I am the original owner. The test target shows a 5 round group of .687. 5 rounds nearly in the same hole and two just outside. It could be shooter error I suppose, I would think that having the skills with a bolt gun would easily translate to a semi-auto. I regularly shoot at 1200yds with my trg 42 in .300 win mag and we shoot 3 round groups into playing cards at 500yds. Also I own 2 sr 15s, one e3 mod 1 and the e3 legacy. They are the definition of what a carbine should be. You can blaze with them all afternoon and sit down and shoot a 1.5 inch group at 100. I cannot say enough good things about them.
I plan to get a nf 2.5x10x42 when I recover from paying for the rifle. I will get some better ammo and give it another go around.
Thanks for your suggestions and experience with the system.
Cobracutter said:
Comparing a Gasser to a bolt gun?

We see people make these posts everyday, 90% of the time it is a combo of unrealistic expectations along with Poor shooting fundementals/skills and a lack of equipment knowledge for propper install/setup.

The dude has a $400 scope with a shitty QD mount on a $5000 rifle and we are suposed to take his word its all the rifles fault? Was everything torqued? What distances are you shooting? Have you done a box test? How many rounds are down the tube? Are you a PROVEN shooter with the same equipment on another Semi-Auto gun? Your Handloads could be shitty? You are also cleaning it WAY to much. Don't even think of cleaning the bore untill you get accuracy or reliability issues. They shoot better dirty.

As far as not shooting fast enough to heat up the barrel, thats 100% bullshit. These guns are regularly used in Carbine and Semi-precision classes, shooting a SHIT load of rounds per day. Yes its a 5R cut barrel, but you are not going to hurt it shooting a normal semi/precision regime. SOCOM has been using a version of this gun (K1 & K2) for years and they are highly spoken of. Ive seen these guns shoot on full auto for a few mags and turn around and hit steel at 800m. Its not rocket science.


Make sure ALLL variables are accounted for, and get some good ammo like SWA or CC gas gun .308, and settle down and put 100-200 rounds through it.

What does the test target show?

I have NEVER seen a bad commerical SR15 or SR25 that wouldn't shoot with good ammo and a good shooter. Even their CL barrels shoot 1MOA typicaly.
Click to expand...
 
AvsFan said:
I bet this is your issue...don't clean after every range session. Some, if not most, barrels shoot better once they build up some fouling & copper and then settle in. Once this happens, only clean once the accuracy degrades.

AvsFan:confused:
Click to expand...

I wouldn't beleive that to be the case.

Unless he is using Sweets or JB compound, I really doubt that he cleans much of the copper fouling from the barrel.

My issued big frame AR shoots fine, and it's cleaned every time.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
Stop cleaning the damn thing.

All an AR platform needs is an occasional oiling, chamber cleaning and parts inspection.

Clean when the accuracy falls off; this can take as many as 1k rounds or more.

Your issue is obviously something that is changing with heat; possibly have a gunsmith check to make sure your barrel and everything else is fitted/tightened properly.
 
1. Check your mounts, scope, etc.

2. Dry fire before you shoot. You might see that you are the cause.

3. If it is a gun problem, it's probably because the barrel wasn't properly stress releived. I've seen at least one high-end cut rifled barrel that would consistently change point-of-impact after 10 rounds.

4. There's nothing wrong with cleaning the gun every time. Solvents like hoppes don't really strip the copper fouling.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
mjmilovich091 said:
I see where you are coming from, you don't know me from Adam. I don't consider myself to be an excellent marksman but I do eat, sleep, live, and breathe shooting and all things related. I agree with you, the scope is a bit shoddy for the rifle, I use it as a floater, it gets mounted on two or three rifles a month and has never shown any signs of a problem. As for the rifle it has had right about 300 rounds down the tube, I am the original owner. The test target shows a 5 round group of .687. 5 rounds nearly in the same hole and two just outside. It could be shooter error I suppose, I would think that having the skills with a bolt gun would easily translate to a semi-auto. I regularly shoot at 1200yds with my trg 42 in .300 win mag and we shoot 3 round groups into playing cards at 500yds. Also I own 2 sr 15s, one e3 mod 1 and the e3 legacy. They are the definition of what a carbine should be. You can blaze with them all afternoon and sit down and shoot a 1.5 inch group at 100. I cannot say enough good things about them.
I plan to get a nf 2.5x10x42 when I recover from paying for the rifle. I will get some better ammo and give it another go around.
Thanks for your suggestions and experience with the system.
Click to expand...

I am right there with you man. HUGE KAC fan and I own a bunch of them.

Shooting a gasser introduces a whole bunch of new variables that frankly aren't there with a bolt gun. While 16" is plenty to get to 900-1000 yards with .308 175gr, its not exactly optimal as you know.

I had and still have a hell of a time shooting .308/.260/6.5cm gas guns compared to bolt guns. They tend to magnify flaws in your fundamentals that don't show up shooting SR15's or other AR15's. It takes practice and patience to wriggle out the rust and hone in.


First thing I would do is get a better optic and mount. The ONLY QD mounts you should consider are Bobro and GDI, and even then, be mindfull there is no such thing as true RTD and each will have some sort of shift. If you don't already have one, get yourself a high quality set of torque wrenches, like the Borka. Every shooter should have one for working on their guns/optics/rings/mounts. A proven optic with better magnification might also be in order. Its hard to short tiny groups with 5-10x. You need to box and/or ladder test whatever optic you use, after putting it into a solid mount (Big fan of the Badger 1 piece), torqued to spec to elimate the optic/mount/torque as the weak link.

The test target indicates the gun shoots. You may want to call KAC and ask what they recomend for the EC as far as factory ammo goes too.
 
I was talking with a friend of mine earlier who is a metallurgist and works as failure analysis, he said the same thing. he recommended I give him the barrel and he would cryo treat it to relieve any stress. I think I will do a bit more shooting and give KAC a call after that if things don't get better, and do the cryo treatment as a last resort.
BangBangBlatBlat said:
1. Check your mounts, scope, etc.

2. Dry fire before you shoot. You might see that you are the cause.

3. If it is a gun problem, it's probably because the barrel wasn't properly stress releived. I've seen at least one high-end cut rifled barrel that would consistently change point-of-impact after 10 rounds.

4. There's nothing wrong with cleaning the gun every time. Solvents like hoppes don't really strip the copper fouling.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
 
I figured a better mount might be in order, I just leave that scope in it because it gets put on so many different guns and it has never exhibited a problem. Also the torque wrench I use is a Cornwell 1/4 drive. Its not made for optics, just small shit you want exactly tight, a T handle one would be much easier to use. Ill keep trying and start minding my fundamentals more closely and see what happens. Also the test target says it was shot with Remington match ammo 168gr, I didn't even know they made match ammo.(never been a fan of big green)
Again; thanks for your helpful insight.
 
mjmilovich091 said:
I was talking with a friend of mine earlier who is a metallurgist and works as failure analysis, he said the same thing. he recommended I give him the barrel and he would cryo treat it to relieve any stress. I think I will do a bit more shooting and give KAC a call after that if things don't get better, and do the cryo treatment as a last resort.
Click to expand...

My bet is still on stress in the barrel.

I had a Noveske SPR barrel that would drill .6-.7" for 10-12 shots. Then it would go ape shit after that opening up to 3"+. Let it cool and it's back to sub .7" your heart really sinks when it happens cause I realized what it was and the barrel had to go.
 
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If you are 100% it is the barrel, send it back to KAC. Don't try and have ur buddy bubba rig it.

It will destroy your warranty
KAC is responsible for defective products, if this is the case, let them fix it.
It also helps KAC make better products, when they can analyze defective products. This is good for all KAC owners and the Military.
 
My bet is that it is the shooter. The first handful of rounds go well and then recoil anticipation sets in. Gassers are not forgiving of any flaw in technique.

I have had a hard time learning this lesson myself. I can shoot my AX like a pro, but I get behind a gas gun and look silly. When all the moons align, it all comes together. Start subconsciously thinking about the recoil or blast? Forget about it. It took four different expensive gas guns in the last year or so to learn this lesson.
 
Cobracutter said:
If you are 100% it is the barrel, send it back to KAC. Don't try and have ur buddy bubba rig it.

It will destroy your warranty
KAC is responsible for defective products, if this is the case, let them fix it.
It also helps KAC make better products, when they can analyze defective products. This is good for all KAC owners and the Military.
Click to expand...

A big +1 here. I'm sure your buddy knows what's he's doing but Joe Joe the gun plumber can wreck a warranty.
 
I would agree with you and I am not eliminating myself as the cause just yet, but the gun runs smooooth, recoil is maybe twice that of a sr15 and it is surprisingly not that blasty for a 7.62 with a 16 inch barrel. I watch rounds impact through the scope at 100 yards, it is very shooter friendly in that aspect.
bm11 said:
My bet is that it is the shooter. The first handful of rounds go well and then recoil anticipation sets in. Gassers are not forgiving of any flaw in technique.

I have had a hard time learning this lesson myself. I can shoot my AX like a pro, but I get behind a gas gun and look silly. When all the moons align, it all comes together. Start subconsciously thinking about the recoil or blast? Forget about it. It took four different expensive gas guns in the last year or so to learn this lesson.
Click to expand...
 
Cobra cutter is right. I will keep after it, get some more trigger time in with some quality ammo and perhaps a different optic and some different shooters. If that does not remedy it then back to KAC it will go.
Tangodown911 said:
A big +1 here. I'm sure your buddy knows what's he's doing but Joe Joe the gun plumber can wreck a warranty.
Click to expand...
 
Definitely don't have your buddy "fix" it. If it's a gun problem, KAC will fix it.
After you ensure everything is properly tightened, try this to see if it's a barrel issue. Have a buddy/wife/gf shoot 10rds or so a the normal rate of fire to get it heated up (he doesn't even need to try to shoot accurately or with good ammo - the point is just to get the barrel heated up). Then you get behind the gun (do your normal routine) and fire for accuracy. The purpose is to see if it's the gun after being hot or you after loosing concentration/fundamentals of shooting a gas gun.

Get some Black Hills 175SMK and see how it does. The fact that 168FGGM doesn't do well is really strange (I don't get ejector swipes on any FGGM at all). If you're getting the larger groups, send it back.
 
I had similar issues with a stoner (1994 production). Although after about a 500 rounds, it's shot 168gr FGMM like darts. To be fair, the early 90s production barrels were throated for this cartridge. I'm completely unfamiliar with new production.
 
Now,,,,, didnt i tell you this from the get go about 1year ago? Jk :p

Ive found that shooting small groups with a big cal 308 AR is much more demanding in terms of technique in comparison to an ar-15


bm11 said:
My bet is that it is the shooter. The first handful of rounds go well and then recoil anticipation sets in. Gassers are not forgiving of any flaw in technique.

I have had a hard time learning this lesson myself. I can shoot my AX like a pro, but I get behind a gas gun and look silly. When all the moons align, it all comes together. Start subconsciously thinking about the recoil or blast? Forget about it. It took four different expensive gas guns in the last year or so to learn this lesson.
Click to expand...
 
I have a 2013 model sr-25 EC. I know there are two sides of the fence on barrel break in, but did you break the barrel in per factory spec? I noticed after I broke my barrel in it took a good 100+ rounds for it to start shooting consistent sub-moa groups. Like an idiot I cleaned the barrel and had similar accuracy results as you. Since then I have not cleaned the barrel and now some 300 rounds later its shooting like a laser! I just shot my first sub MOA group at 200 yards this past Sunday with 308 168fgmm. I also upgraded my scope as well to a higher end FFP mil/mil and it's helping me squeeze out all the accuracy potential of this rifle. Honestly there's a lot of time and skill needed to shoot a semi auto precision gun to get consistent results. Finally after having 500+ rounds experience shooting it I am becoming lights out with this platform. Good luck!
 
Cobracutter said:
Comparing a Gasser to a bolt gun?

We see people make these posts everyday, 90% of the time it is a combo of unrealistic expectations along with Poor shooting fundementals/skills and a lack of equipment knowledge for propper install/setup.

The dude has a $400 scope with a shitty QD mount on a $5000 rifle and we are suposed to take his word its all the rifles fault? Was everything torqued? What distances are you shooting? Have you done a box test? How many rounds are down the tube? Are you a PROVEN shooter with the same equipment on another Semi-Auto gun? Your Handloads could be shitty? You are also cleaning it WAY to much. Don't even think of cleaning the bore untill you get accuracy or reliability issues. They shoot better dirty.

As far as not shooting fast enough to heat up the barrel, thats 100% bullshit. These guns are regularly used in Carbine and Semi-precision classes, shooting a SHIT load of rounds per day. Yes its a 5R cut barrel, but you are not going to hurt it shooting a normal semi/precision regime. SOCOM has been using a version of this gun (K1 & K2) for years and they are highly spoken of. Ive seen these guns shoot on full auto for a few mags and turn around and hit steel at 800m. Its not rocket science.


Make sure ALLL variables are accounted for, and get some good ammo like SWA or CC gas gun .308, and settle down and put 100-200 rounds through it.

What does the test target show?

I have NEVER seen a bad commerical SR15 or SR25 that wouldn't shoot with good ammo and a good shooter. Even their CL barrels shoot 1MOA typicaly.
Click to expand...
Haha I love it man! So true! Not to mention larue mounts suck! Worst design ever.. at what point in time is it a good idea to have steel cam (dig) into aluminum??

Gas guns are a COMPLETELY different animal then a finely tuned bolt gun. Every guy I know that gets a gasser goes back to bolt guns. (No matter how nice the gas gun)

Gas guns also experience "first round last round" phenomenon. This is experienced on the 308 platform more than a 556 platform gas gun.

Gas guns are what they are. A "Precision" rifle to put lead on bad guys fast and can be accurate. They just require a lot more practice.
 
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Well after 2 days of really shooting this thing it turns out I'm pretty much just an idiot. I have learned a lot about how big gas guns are totally different from bolt guns, small frame ar's or even m1a's. Like many people have said here fundamentals are everything with them. I went back to square one and tried to eliminate all the bad habits I have developed. I found what I was doing is putting quite the side load on the grip when trying to line up the target. I started shooting it like a bench gun where is all I do is pull the trigger and pretty much let it free recoil, having as little contact with it as possible. Low and behold it does shoot. I shot 7, 5 round groups in the span of 10 or so minutes, none of them were more than an inch most were right around 3/4.
I never would have thought having skills with a bolt gun would not translate to an ar 10. (And I thought I knew it all)jk
Thanks for all of the suggestions and experience everyone has offered. I would like to do a bit of a review with pictures on it and post it here when I get it set up the way I want and have a bit more trigger time with it. Anyone who has ever looked for info on these rifles knows there is not a plethora of it out there from end users.
Again; thanks for all the help and info.
M.J.
 
An auto-loading rifle CAN potentially shoot tight benchrest bughole groups (although they're not typically designed as such -- I understand ECR stands for Enhanced Combat Rifle) -- meaning big-ass humanoid-shaped targets or live hostile knuckleheads out to 800 doctrinal Meters using ho-hum Uncle Sam 7.62 Match, Special Ball, or Long Range.

Try a standard NRA SR target and shoot ten-shot groups at 200 and 300 yards (if prone-bipod or sand-bagged shoot the groups in 60 seconds each). Do you shoot "Clean" scores (100s)? What are your X-counts? These are attainable assuming you and your weapon and sight/scope can hold a minute-and-a-half group.

Shooting E-type silhouettes I'd assume you don't miss the whole friggin' thing.
 
Yes I did. Not as frequently though, when I finally figured out how to shoot it well there was about 10 rounds through it off of a full cleaning. I have not yet cleaned it today and plan shooting it in the morning. at this point it has had 90 or so rounds with no cleaning. We will see tomorrow how it does.
Tangodown911 said:
Have you cleaned it again through your two days of shooting? That would be interesting to see if cleaning it affects results...severely.
Click to expand...
 
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