SR25 Upper Compatibility

POGPride

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A few months ago I decided to jump into large frame ARs and at the time I thought there was basically two camps: the Armalite AR10 and the DPMS pattern. DPMS being far more popular (Areo, JP, countless others) and Armalite being the less common and proprietary option (there are several other proprietary options and some will get an honorable mention).

I initially decided on a GGP set (DPMS) which was very well made but after some struggles with the Ambi system, (it was resolved) I decided I wanted something different and I sold the set. It was at this point I realized there was a third camp, typically associated with the highest end of gas gun manufactures: Knight's Armament and the SR25. I wanted one, but there very limited configurations, 16" and 20" 308s and 22" 6.5 Creedmoor are the only options. And that is IF you can even get one, Knight's guns are not readily available at retail, and I have no intention of paying Gunbroker/ Gray market extortion prices.

But is Knight's design as exclusive as it seems? Not really as it turns out. There is design elements from both Armalite and DPMS. Also, other manufactures have followed the Knight's SR-25 pattern and have some compatibility. There are some resources that discuss difference between AR10 and DPMS, but almost all of them completely ignore the SR-25 as a standard. If you are a Knight's purist, I get it... this is meant to be a resource for the SR25 pattern. Also this is America and people will always customize/build whatever they want. This post is not for you... please move along....

The SR-25 Pattern is basically Armalite "slant cut" receivers, DPMS barrel extension, barrel nut, bolt, magazine and DPMS High Handguard (3/16 Tang)

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So after doing some quick compatibility research, I ended up choosing an LMT lower receiver as my starting point. I found a blem MARS-H in stock at Big Texas Ordinance. And this is where the issue started :giggle:. Upper receivers with a Armalite "slant cut" and DPMS High compatibility were not readily available for this pattern. I decided to set out to find a an upper receiver that I could use with my LMT lower, DPMS High handguard of choice and DPMS internals (barrel, bolt, carrier ect.) and I preferred to have no forward assist.

I have been able to test fit Stag, Seekins, Mega, LMT and Knight's and a few other brands with varying success and ultimately found pretty much what I was looking for. A long the way I created a spread sheet with the information I gathered to help others with similar objectives. If you can add to this I would love your input, feel free to comment and I will add as information as needed. There are no resources for SR-25 compatible manufactures as far as I know, but we can start here.

The link to my spreadsheet is here. (The spreadsheet includes Centurion Arms, LaRue, V Seven, Type A, Noveski, Troy, Genesis CNC, ADM and all the other brands I could find with Armalite "slant cut" receiver.

Below is a list of the highlights from the spreadsheet.

Knight's Compatibility
Knight's SR-25:
This is what I have been looking to emulate.. not necessary clone... but for obvious reasons this is the top of the list. Drawbacks here are lack of availability, limited configuration, elitism and cost.

LMT MARS-H: Probably better than Knight's if I am honest... the best Ambi in the business and that monolithic design has a lot going for it. Only drawback is the proprietary barrel system. There is just one guy (I am aware of) who makes custom barrels for these, that's not great for longevity. On the other hand, Everyone who makes barrels is making DPMS compatible barrel... so LMT is a hard sell for me.

Stag Arms STAG-10: This was the first one I tried and it does function. One of the best solutions available… The fit is ok on the LMT lower, the lower over hangs the upper in a the rear and the Forward assist is kind of a bummer. Unrelated comment, as with most DPMS High pattern uppers, Knight's handguard's require hand fitting unless you want to live with a huge gap between the rail and the upper. A small mount of material must be removed from URX 3.1 and for URX 4s the receiver its self must be faced. Its a small amount of fitting but not for the uninitiated. (PM me if you want more details on how to fit knight's rails to DPMS uppers)
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SMF Tactical TAC-10 : You have likely never heard of these guys. Its a small shop, very nice and helpful people I spoke with on the phone several times. This is not their main business and I had to beg them to make me an upper. It took a few weeks but I got one and I am sure they will make more. This was the best I have tried. It will take some hand fitting to make it perfect, but on the plus side, Knight's handguards fit without any fitting or trimming (normally required). There is some overhang but this could be and fit with files if you know what you are doing (I was a small parts fabricator for a few years). I'll post updates here as this progresses, waiting on a barrel from Craddock precision and I would like to find an LMT or Knight's BCG. (Considering a Seekins BCG if I come across one)
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Seekins SP10: Probably the best option. semi monolithic is great. Readily available and out standing quality. I am not crazy about the triangle shaped handguard and the lack of options here. I have fit one of these on to my LMT lower and its a perfect fit. These are only available as a builder set or a complete gun. but no reason not to just do this if you are cool with the handguard.

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Mega Arms MATEN: Really nice quality. Availability is good. Not a great option to mix with other brans but will work with some. This is great if you are looking for a game gun. Super heavy. The upper will function with Knight's lowers but fit is not great interferes with MARS-H ambi controls.
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Wilson Combat: These do NOT fit and are truly a proprietary design. I did order an upper to try. The geometry is totally different and there is no chance this can work. I was so disappointed I forgot to take pictures before I returned it. They do have a disclaimer on the website but, I tried it anyway. They did give me a refund without and issues, but it took close to month.

Armalite AR-10A: The lowers are compatible with Knight's uppers, take SR25 magazines (AR-10B do not use sr25 mags). But that is where compatibility stops. The uppers have a forward assist (not really into that), and a different thread pattern for the barrel nut, different barrel extension, bolt etc, etc,
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ADM UIC-10: I have seen pictures of these with and without forward assist. They wont breakup a builders set unfortunately. If some one has tried this let me know.

In the longer term I have a friend with a CNC shop who is making AR-15 already and looking to get into AR10s. If there is interest in this pattern, ether for Knight's clones or just cause you think its cooler than other options let me know. I am trying to build a case that this is a space in the market where he can differentiate and find some demand.



EDIT: More options provided by SH members


JP Enterprises PSC-12 (Information an pictures courtesy of @papershredder ) My take on it so far on an LMT lower; Pins are very tight, no play or slop between the receivers at all. There is a little gap at the back angled profile between upper and lower receivers. They use a DPMS threaded barrel nut and come with any of the JP DPMS bolt carrier groups (buyers choice).
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GUNNER10

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I've done a couple 308 AR builds that were great shooters, but had SR25 cut receivers, the first was an Armalite AR10 that wore a Krieger barrel and DD lite rail, the second was eagle arms (Armalite) lower, Armalite stripped upper, Noveske barrel with a DD lite rail.

I currently own 1, SR25 and 2, LMT MWS's and find building 308's AR's a waste of time at this point. There are enough really good 308 gas guns out there that its not really worth it to spending the energy and money on compatibility issues. Sig, DD, Noveske, Barret, all make really good SR25 type this rifles.

If you want to use a LMT lower, simply get an LMT or KAC upper and be done with it, LMT has been supporting spare barrels for their MWS/MRP platform for almost 20 years now so I am not sure if you concern about longevity are valid. I have 13.5, 16 18 and 20 inch 308 barrels and a 20 inch 6.5 barrel. LMT has gunsmith kits coming down the pipeline at some point so if somebody wants to convert an odd ball rifle, its not a difficult process.

If you want a seekins or mega upper, sell the LMT lower and get the builders kit. Even if you find the receiver set that you like you are now faced with the issue of finding a hand guard that is compatible with your set. There is nothing wrong with experimenting, but its not exactly uncommon for people to have issues with large frame mix masters.
 

TacticalDillhole

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    You should look into and add Zev DPMS receivers in that spreadsheet. It’s all I use now to build my own gassers. No issues with am I controls and quality is superb.
     
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    POGPride

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    I've done a couple 308 AR builds that were great shooters, but had SR25 cut receivers, the first was an Armalite AR10 that wore a Krieger barrel and DD lite rail, the second was eagle arms (Armalite) lower, Armalite stripped upper, Noveske barrel with a DD lite rail.

    I currently own 1, SR25 and 2, LMT MWS's and find building 308's AR's a waste of time at this point. There are enough really good 308 gas guns out there that its not really worth it to spending the energy and money on compatibility issues. Sig, DD, Noveske, Barret, all make really good SR25 type this rifles.

    If you want to use a LMT lower, simply get an LMT or KAC upper and be done with it, LMT has been supporting spare barrels for their MWS/MRP platform for almost 20 years now so I am not sure if you concern about longevity are valid. I have 13.5, 16 18 and 20 inch 308 barrels and a 20 inch 6.5 barrel. LMT has gunsmith kits coming down the pipeline at some point so if somebody wants to convert an odd ball rifle, its not a difficult process.

    If you want a seekins or mega upper, sell the LMT lower and get the builders kit. Even if you find the receiver set that you like you are now faced with the issue of finding a hand guard that is compatible with your set. There is nothing wrong with experimenting, but its not exactly uncommon for people to have issues with large frame mix masters.
    You are not wrong here. This is just a reasorces for anyone who is wondering about the SR25 compatibility.

    As far as LMT, longevity isn’t the issue… it’s custom work. LMT is great if I want 308, 6.5 creedmoor or 260. But if someone wants to build a 6GT LMT, or use a custom contour, there is only one guy who does that, That I am aware of… also you can’t choose your own handguard with LMT obviously.

    Once LMT stuff becomes available again I will likely get one of their uppers. But I like options. And I know other people do to.
     
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    MOUNTIC

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    I have these in my spread sheet. They are not currently available.
    I see a Century Arms in your sheet that is different then Centurion. Unless I can't see the whole sheet from my phone for whatever reason. But good info and post for folks going down this path of 308 gassers.
     

    the monk

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    In the longer term I have a friend with a CNC shop who is making AR-15 already and looking to get into AR10s. If there is interest in this pattern, ether for Knight's clones or just cause you think its cooler than other options let me know. I am trying to build a case that this is a space in the market where he can differentiate and find some demand.
    I appreciate all the work you have put in on this! There is a huge hole in the market. I know Charlie's Customs was working on dimensional drawing of the SR upper but I dont know where that got left off. LMT (and KAC to some extent) lowers are readily available and I have always been confused why manufactures see the benefits of the system but then make their own proprietary sets. DD really missed an opportunity here where they could have sold their uppers to an existing user based and also to 3 letter agencies and Mil clients that dont want to get rid of their lowers.

    LMT only has monolithic uppers with too short of a rail on my opinion. Larue has perfectly LMT/KAC matching uppers but they user their proprietary rail setup (although not terrible) in their ultimate uppers. From my research the SMF Tactical TAC-10 looks to be the best option but I dont understand the dimensional issues. In 2022 I dont see why this is a hard problem to solve.

    If uppers were available I would buy two in a heartbeat. There is a whole M110 cloners world that have been trying to figure this out for a long time with limited success.
     
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    papershredder

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    Here's another to add to the list. JP PSC-12 side charge receiver Armalite pattern. I'm still in the process of building this upper. My take on it so far on an LMT lower; Pins are very tight, no play or slop between the receivers at all. There is a little gap at the back angled profile between upper and lower receivers. They use a DPMS threaded barrel nut and come with any of the JP DPMS bolt carrier groups (buyers choice). Edit - Sorry for the vertical pics, apperently my phone and computer don't communicate well together

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    POGPride

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    I see a Century Arms in your sheet that is different then Centurion. Unless I can't see the whole sheet from my phone for whatever reason. But good info and post for folks going down this path of 308 gassers.
    That was a typo… I fixed it and added their URL. If these come back it would be great.
     
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    papershredder

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    One thing I didn't mention on the JP upper earlier is the JP barrel extension I bought is a little loose. I don't think it is the upper though. The ID of the upper where the extion fits measures 1.189 with calipers, and from what I searched on barrel extension dimensions, The receiver is +.001" from where it should be at (1.188). The receiver extension I bought measures 1.186 on the OD with calipers. So just a little caveat to anyone considering one of the JP uppers, a larger diameter extension may be required for a proper fit.
     

    TacticalPlinker

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    Do you care to elaborate? I have not heard of LMT MIM parts breaking, I am curious as to what you are talking about.
    Unless there's information supporting recent breaking of LMT MIM , that is ancient history. Spoke directly to them years ago about the gas key issues(5.56) . The reported metallurgical design flaws were flagged and resolved . As per what's his face at LMT (Gene?). The guy who's been the leed in Tech Support forever. I forget his name.
     
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    TheOE800

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    I’m sure your pre Covid LMT has better QC.

    Do you care to elaborate? I have not heard of LMT MIM parts breaking, I am curious as to what you are talking about.
    Multiple MARS-L lowers from late Q3 or early Q4 2021 had levers break.
     
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    RUTGERS95

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    LMT best ambi? Enjoy that MIM lever when it snaps.
    lol, stupid stupid response. I take it you read that on some interwet and think it's legit. First off, not all MIM is the same, that's just a fact. Hell, MIM can achieve density of almost 100% of forged products and use STRONGER metals in doing so NOTWITHSTANDING the heat process used. I highly doubt that LMT would use a powdered process. Secondly, please to point to the plethora of issues from this and not what someone thinks or someone knows someone or a 1 off post.

    Considering how many LMTs saw real combat experience and were abused to fk, I'm laughing at this.
     
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    RUTGERS95

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    I’m sure your pre Covid LMT has better QC.


    Multiple MARS-L lowers from late Q3 or early Q4 2021 had levers break.
    multiple out of how many? Let's see the count and let's see the links. I mean shit, my kac sr25 had to go back for a qc issue, does that mean they suck?

    lol
     
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    RUTGERS95

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    Unless there's information supporting recent breaking of LMT MIM , that is ancient history. Spoke directly to them years ago about the gas key issues(5.56) . The reported metallurgical design flaws were flagged and resolved . As per what's his face at LMT (Gene?). The guy who's been the leed in Tech Support forever. I forget his name.
    correct
    they also had to do a different heat treatment and compo for the interface on the piston but that is enhancing the platform for any engineer.
    the gas keys was an issue that was way way overblown and remedied quickly.

    I'm waiting to hear this new MIM issue as my google fu is not working well on it. I will call LMT on Tuesday to inquire however.
     
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    TheOE800

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    multiple out of how many? Let's see the count and let's see the links. I mean shit, my kac sr25 had to go back for a qc issue, does that mean they suck?

    lol

    Nah I’ve had multiple KACs go back, a ZCO, vortex etc. but LMT was absolutely the least helpful when I did have an issue - to be clear my levers haven’t broken, but I have a low firing schedule and keep spares on hand.

    Out of how many? Hundreds and you know that. Bad batch of heat treat maybe, but the design is fragile. Pass. You enjoy your lever, I’ll keep talking trash…such is the internet.

    So that being said , who makes reliable levers for the LMT ?
    You’re locked into OEM supplied levers until someone makes tool steel billet ones.
     

    POGPride

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    GUNNER10

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    Meh...

    MIM parts breaking is something that pops up every few years when there is a bad batch. Does shit happen, sure, but between all of the DoD/MoD 7.62 gas guns that have spent almost two decades down range, it doesn't seem to be quite the issue as some would make it out to be.

    If people abandoned anything that has demonstrated a failure, would be still be shooting iron sights, and walking to the range.
     

    GUNNER10

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    You are not wrong here. This is just a reasorces for anyone who is wondering about the SR25 compatibility.

    As far as LMT, longevity isn’t the issue… it’s custom work. LMT is great if I want 308, 6.5 creedmoor or 260. But if someone wants to build a 6GT LMT, or use a custom contour, there is only one guy who does that, That I am aware of… also you can’t choose your own handguard with LMT obviously.

    Once LMT stuff becomes available again I will likely get one of their uppers. But I like options. And I know other people do to.
    Ahhh, got ya...

    While DWilson does most of the barrel conversions at this point, there are a few other smiths out there are doing them as well, I don't recall their names at the moment but if you hang out in the LMT threads/groups, they pop up. actually if you go over to the book of faces and just ask in one of the LMT groups you could probably get a few recommendations in short order.
     
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    bfoosh006

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    For POGpride...

    Thank you for sharing your info. Large Frame AR's can be quite the "learning" experience.


    Anyone see any issues with the BCG bore axis height ( in the upper ) being an issue in their mutt breeds ? ( respectfully called mutts, and meaning different brand upper and lower )

    IE, The BCG rides slightly higher in the upper, and the BCG tail end doesn't quite center in the lowers buffer tube extension.

    I have seen it in some mutt build "DPMS" pattern uppers and lowers.

    Typically those DPMS pattern mutts still run, but I wonder about long term possible issues.

    The indirect related issues can be ( between mutt builds ) bolt catches not quite positioned properly, magazine catches being slightly off resulting in the feed lips being slightly to high or to low.

    And the lack of a Mil-Spec guideline in Large Frame AR's sucks.
     
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    WindstormSCR

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    And the lack of a Mil-Spec guideline in Large Frame AR's sucks.

    I think we're slowly starting to see one form (ish) around the SR25/M110 and LMT stuff, but it will probably be another couple of decades before everything is as interchangeable as an AR15
     
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    POGPride

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    I think we're slowly starting to see one form (ish) around the SR25/M110 and LMT stuff, but it will probably be another couple of decades before everything is as interchangeable as an AR15
    Unfortunately, with Hk (new m110 CSASS) and Sig (NGSW) getting contracts with their proprietary designs and don’t think this is the case.

    I am not sure this will go the route of the AR-15. Hopping more options become available for the SR25 pattern, but not holding my breath.
     

    POGPride

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    I did some fitting work to the SMF tactical upper to get the lines to match up better with the LMT lower. Really, I just broke some edges and trimmed some overhang but it made a huge difference and I am really happy with how it turned out.

    Again… this did function without modification. I just wanted the lines to match up a bit better.
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    Basically I just put sharpie on the upper (Like layout fluid) and scribed some line, then use files to remove extra material. SO long as you take you time and have a some file (And a few different shapes) this is no difficult. It just requires patience.
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    Here is some shots during and after paint. (Paint is Aervoe brand and the color is Sand) Oh and that LMT blem marking is 🤌

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    GUNNER10

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    I did some fitting work to the SMF tactical upper to get the lines to match up better with the LMT lower. Really, I just broke some edges and trimmed some overhang but it made a huge difference and I am really happy with how it turned out.

    Again… this did function without modification. I just wanted the lines to match up a bit better.
    View attachment 7815857View attachment 7815858View attachment 7815859View attachment 7815860

    Basically I just put sharpie on the upper (Like layout fluid) and scribed some line, then use files to remove extra material. SO long as you take you time and have a some file (And a few different shapes) this is no difficult. It just requires patience.
    View attachment 7815867View attachment 7815868View attachment 7815870View attachment 7815871


    Here is some shots during and after paint. (Paint is Aervoe brand and the color is Sand) Oh and that LMT blem marking is 🤌

    View attachment 7815863View attachment 7815864View attachment 7815865View attachment 7815884View attachment 7815885
    Neat.
     
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    POGPride

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    Update.....
    I picked up a 20” heavy contour 308 barrel from Ballistic advantage. These have a rifle length gas system with a .083 gas hole. I planned to cut it down to 16” and copy the m110k1 look.

    Had the barrel dimpled by Marvin Pitts who did this for KAC with the original m110k1, which turned out really cool. He also cut the barrel to 16”, re-contoured from the gas journal forward to .750 and opened up the gas port to .095

    Gun is all together now and runs well on FGMM.

    I included a pic below of the actual m110k1, which was the look I was going for.

    Although, I wouldn’t call this a clone… there are just too many “unobtainium” parts that are not available and just dumb to try and get.

    IE $500 muzzle device you can’t buy and only works with a $2k suppressor you can’t buy, both of which are old technology. Same for the scope, scope mount, gas block etc.
     

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    MR.Abrams

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    Damme she slick. You need a AEM5-30. (Emc can vibes) I was contemplating something similar. Been sitting on a Smf tactical upper for a 2yrs now. Might have to fit it to a geissele mk1.5 sr25 rail. Currently waiting on 2 griffin rsta's to clear form 4s, before I commit. She's a sick clone. I think the rifle speed gas block would put it over the top. That bottom rifle got the field drab treatment.
     
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    MR.Abrams

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    This rail (geissele mk1.5), and that top adjustable gas block with the urx 3.1
     

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    POGPride

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    This rail (geissele mk1.5), and that top adjustable gas block with the urx 3.1
    Thanks! I looked at the rifle speed (that almost happened.) The GB I ended up with is made by Allegheny and is designed to work with the AEM5 /OCM5 (allows shortest possible configuration) I think these are all 556 so I’ll probably have to convince otter creek to make me one in 30cal.
     
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    RUTGERS95

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    Nah I’ve had multiple KACs go back, a ZCO, vortex etc. but LMT was absolutely the least helpful when I did have an issue - to be clear my levers haven’t broken, but I have a low firing schedule and keep spares on hand.

    Out of how many? Hundreds and you know that. Bad batch of heat treat maybe, but the design is fragile. Pass. You enjoy your lever, I’ll keep talking trash…such is the internet.


    You’re locked into OEM supplied levers until someone makes tool steel billet ones.
    lol you are so full of $hit and haven't a clue what you're talking about. go back to arfcom with the other wannabes
     

    Rdbailey2000

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    Oct 24, 2019
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    Have anyone looked at compatible uppers for the 80 Lowers SR25 Blanks?
    I just finished mine up and it fits/cycles okay, there is just a little overlap between the upper and lower over the FCG pocket. Plus side is the lower uses DPMS parts with exception of takedown/pivot pins. Their upper however is DPMS barrel nut thread and matches very nicely with the lower (as it should). I use my 80lowers lower on my STAG 10 upper and it does the job. The only drawback I have is the finger grooves on the front of the magazine well, not very traditional. Just my $0.02 worth.
     
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