@TxWelder35 i don't have any pressure signs, 25 was just where i stopped. Coincidentally I was hoping to be around 2850. Per the Hodgdon data I'm where I should be. I'll explore this 25gr area more.
- Thread starter M4orturnate
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That is a little slow, but maybe where you wanted to be?
I was working up a load for 223 tac class with 77’s (3000 speed limit). Went up to 25.9 with staball match 26” Bartlein 8T 223W
25.9 77RDF 3000
25.9 77TMk 2982
24.7 88 eldm 2847
Virgin IVI brass & soft ruag primers. No pressure on these.
!!! new Hodgedon powder new load data Update 1/21 !!!!!
What are you planning to load with it? 223, 224 Valk, & 6ARC for sure. Might also try it in 22GT, but there are already a lot of good Temp stable options in the GT Edit: This might be worth a try for 308 as well.
www.snipershide.com That is a little slow, but maybe where you wanted to be?
I was working up a load for 223 tac class with 77’s (3000 speed limit). Went up to 25.9 with staball match 26” Bartlein 8T 223W
25.9 77RDF 3000
25.9 77TMk 2982
24.7 88 eldm 2847
Virgin IVI brass & soft ruag primers. No pressure on these.
!!! new Hodgedon powder new load data Update 1/21 !!!!!
What are you planning to load with it? 223, 224 Valk, & 6ARC for sure. Might also try it in 22GT, but there are already a lot of good Temp stable options in the GT Edit: This might be worth a try for 308 as well.
Looks promising. How was accuracy and SD?
Both my 223AIs love H4895, but I haven't been able to buy any for 2 years and I'm down to my last 8# jug... Shopping for an alternative powder and staball match looks like it might be worth a try.
Edit: never mind, just noticed you posted all the data in that other thread.
I'd be interested to see how the match powder runs in 6GT. I keep waiting for someone to post with their results, but nothing yet.
I may just have to buy a couple lbs to experiment with. Sure would be nice to load on the 550 with a powder thrower if decent SDs, velocity and accuracy are there.
I may just have to buy a couple lbs to experiment with. Sure would be nice to load on the 550 with a powder thrower if decent SDs, velocity and accuracy are there.
Staball Match powder round 2
In my first test of staball match i was less than impressed with the velocity accuracy and SD's. My first run was 26.5-27.5 grains.
This time i tested 27.5 up to 28 grains. The load data is limited. Hodgen shows 27 grains as the max load. So take my data with caution.
Going up in charge weight proved to increase accuracy, velocity and smaller SD's. I never hit noticable pressure as the brass was clean and the primers showed no flattning or cratering. All kept their shape and look once fired.
2.26" COAL, Barnes 105 Match Burner, Rem 7 1-2 primer, Hornady 4x fired brass, Staball Match powder. 20" proof steel barrel, gas gun.
5 shot groups
27.5gr - 2503 fps 1.25" SD 5 (10 shots)
27.8gr - 2538 fps .76" SD 13 (10shots)
28.0gr - 2571 fps .6" SD 5 (10shots)
In my first test of staball match i was less than impressed with the velocity accuracy and SD's. My first run was 26.5-27.5 grains.
This time i tested 27.5 up to 28 grains. The load data is limited. Hodgen shows 27 grains as the max load. So take my data with caution.
Going up in charge weight proved to increase accuracy, velocity and smaller SD's. I never hit noticable pressure as the brass was clean and the primers showed no flattning or cratering. All kept their shape and look once fired.
2.26" COAL, Barnes 105 Match Burner, Rem 7 1-2 primer, Hornady 4x fired brass, Staball Match powder. 20" proof steel barrel, gas gun.
5 shot groups
27.5gr - 2503 fps 1.25" SD 5 (10 shots)
27.8gr - 2538 fps .76" SD 13 (10shots)
28.0gr - 2571 fps .6" SD 5 (10shots)
Good report. Are you going to keep pushing up?
Something to note: I'm getting 2700 fps with 103 ELDX with Hornady factory ammo, but the 108 ELDM match factory ammo is 2600 fps, maybe a little more.
I was able to get some fantastic velocity with 103 ELDX in my 20" 6XC and R16 so while I know that is a different combo altogether, I'm wondering if 103 ELDX has a pretty short bearing surface (I guess I could go measure this, I have the tools)....may be worth trying. I have some 80 gr Badlands bull dozers that I will eventually try, but right now just enjoying the convenience of factory, haha.
The current Hodgon data is pretty conservative thus far. I my push up a just find where pressure starts in my rifle. Case fill is may be a limiting factor but i am not into the neck yet at 28 grains. With 26.5 grains of Varget i am getting 2521fps. Lever gets me 2635 without pressure. If i could get up to 2600 without pressure i would be happy. These velocities are at 30f or less. I am curious about the temp stability of Staball Match as Lever is not great.
I have a 100 103eldx. Havent loaded them up yet. I assume they would be a good deer bullet at ARC speeds.
I have a 100 103eldx. Havent loaded them up yet. I assume they would be a good deer bullet at ARC speeds.
26" proof .170 alpha reamer, alpha brass, 110 A-tips, CCI BR-4, StaBALL Match
31.5> 2785, 2755, 2767= 2769 average
32.0> 2802, 2825, 2824= 2817
32.5> 2814,2819,2819= 2817
33.0> 2855, 2868, 2863= 2852
Now the bad news, every shot was a very slight hang fire... just enough to feel the pin drop before the discharge. 33 degrees at the time I was shooting these. I'll test a different primer in the future.
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Did you hit pressure? Im running 2840 in my dasher with 112’s and 6.5 staball
No pressure signs but I wasn't looking for the top end either. I want to be in the lower 2800's with this rifle and bullet combo.
Load testing from this past weekend. Shot out of a AR with a 20” Bartlein 1:7.7 twist 4 groove with the CLE chamber. No pressure signs on any of the brass. Used a magnetospeed chrono strapped to the barrel. Temp was 62F and a little breezy. Shot at 100 yards
Wasn’t having a great day shooting (trying a new rest and other drama), but I feel these results show some positive signs!
I got a lb. I will test it this weekend in AR15 (223). I will use 77 grain CC, and 77 Berger OTM among others... Then I loaded up a couple shots of 77 SMK in 25.5 grains, and also 26.0 grains to see where it pops primers, or stamps the brass real good. I am using Starline 556 brass. I think I also loaded 5 shots with a 55 grain Berger Varmint, at 28.0 grains, and another 5 shots at 27.0 grains. In the brass, 28 grains is all the way to the top, and if you settle it, 28 grains is about 1/2 to 2/3 up the neck. I seated the bullet just fine, no dents on the ogive at 28 grains. I would call this powder a HAIR faster burning than CFE223. CFE223 has more energy per grain, however. Slightly. I turned the necks of all the brass, so I did everything I can to make very accurate, consistent loads, as a test. I am hoping its similar to Varmint, and is stable to very high pressure, but superior because its temp stable. with Varmint, I was getting some really stupid velocities using 75 grain bullets.
Shot groupsfor speed today, StaBALL Match. Rifle is a 26" proof 223, bullet 75eld seated somewhere around 2.460 coal, brand new lapua brass and cci 400 small rifle primers.
25.3 was the first load I tried and contains my cold bore... what I don't recall is if I cleaned after my last shooting, if I did that may be contributing to the group size here.
25.3 was the first load I tried and contains my cold bore... what I don't recall is if I cleaned after my last shooting, if I did that may be contributing to the group size here.
Looks promising. I actually managed to snag some H4895 today for the first time in over 2 years so I'm not quite as desperate for an alternative powder for my 223AI anymore, but I also picked up a couple pounds of staball match on the same order to try. Going to test it with 72s and 75s, and if it works well hopefully it will be a more available powder than H4895.
You happen to know the H2O capacity of the cases you're using?
Where did you snag the 4895?
I got it from powder valley, they had it in stock for about 40 minutes this morning. Precision Reloading had some this morning too. So keep an eye out as other dealers might get their shipments in the next couple days.
Savage 110 6.5 Creedmoor 26" factory barrel, 123gr ELD with 38.5gr of StaBALL Match. I need to try a few tenths above and below that to see if it closes that group up any, but I'm happy with it so far. The first 3 were right on top of each other, then the other 2 were just outside.
I need to work up some loads with 130's, 140's & 143's to see what it can do.
I need to work up some loads with 130's, 140's & 143's to see what it can do.
What’s your velocity.
Averaged 2840 ft/s.
It burns pretty clean too. I ran some patches through after each string of 5 to check.
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How does the accuracy and velocity compare to your usual load? Never messed with 123s in my 6.5C, or even researched them, so I don't know what an expected velocity range with the "go-to" powders would be.
I haven't had this rifle very long (maybe a few months), this is the first load development I've done so far. I do have another 6.5CM that's a 110 Tactical with a 24" barrel that I've done some loads for it.
With 38.0gr of H4350 and 140gr ELD match I was getting 0.34" groups with an average of 2538 ft/s.
With 43.0gr of StaBall 6.5 and 140gr ELD match I was getting 0.40" groups with an average of 2680 ft/s.
Other than these 123's, I've just shot off the shelf ammo to sort of break the gun in. I think once I get 200-300 rounds through, I think it'll tighten up even more.
I have a lot of development loads to try with this new rifle before I find what it likes to shoot. If the weather cooperates this weekend, I'll be able to test 130's and 140's with the match powder.
I'll have to load up some with each powder to compare the velocities.
It might be good for 130’s but isn’t it too fast to get 140’s fast enough?
Based on the 2023 burn rate chart, it looks like it should work well for 120s-130s in a 6.5CM but is probably a little fast to achieve "typical" speeds with 140s-147s. While it would work for the heavier bullets, it probably wouldn't be ideal and velocities will be a bit slow. It will probably go over pressure if you tried to push it to 2700+ with 140s. Need something in the tried and proven H4350 / RL16 burn rate range for the heavies, which Staball 6.5 is closer to.
Also, it's funny how conservative Hodgdon's data on their website is for 6.5 CM with the 140 Amax . The current website loads show H4350 and Staball Match neck and neck for velocity at max pressure with a 140 Amax. Their website shows a max of 40.0gr H4350 at only 2660fps. I remember buying a case of early production factory Hornady 6.5CM 140 Amax ammo many years ago that was loaded with 41.5gr H4350. It ran 2830fps out of my 28" barrel and it was good for quite a few firings at that velocity before trashing primer pockets-- even in soft Hornady brass. Hornady's 10th edition manual shows a max of 41.5gr H4350 with the 140 Amax.
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@SlimJim_
I wouldn't load match for anything heavier than the 123's in 6.5C. Even then it's not the best choice. It'll be harder to get consistent low SD's with a ball powder & low case fill. 38.5 match is only about 80% full in a Creedmoor.
Match seems to have burn rate about ideal for 223/308. Even for Valkyrie and 6ARC running heavies I think it's a little to fast.
Match is #112 on the burn chart. Lever #118 is king of speed in the Valk & ARC.
For lighter 120-130gr in 6.5 Creedmoor RL15.5 is money. It's to bulky for small cases, but in the Creedmoor your running about 95% fill with 120-130's. Alliant is way way conservative on the 15.5 data in the Creed. I worked up to 2 full grains over max published with 130 Berger's. According to Gordon's I was near, but not over max. SD's were hovering 3-6 & 130 Hybrids were 2960 from a 25" barrel.
For 135gr + I switch to RL16, H4350, or N555
For comparison to the 38.5 Match load with 123 eldm @2840
41.0gr of 15.5, a mild load would be 2990 & 93% fill.
FYI - Gordon's speed prediction was within about 15fps for the RL 15.5 in my Creedmoor (on the low side). It doesn't line up for all powders, but it was very close with the 15.5.
I wouldn't load match for anything heavier than the 123's in 6.5C. Even then it's not the best choice. It'll be harder to get consistent low SD's with a ball powder & low case fill. 38.5 match is only about 80% full in a Creedmoor.
Match seems to have burn rate about ideal for 223/308. Even for Valkyrie and 6ARC running heavies I think it's a little to fast.
Match is #112 on the burn chart. Lever #118 is king of speed in the Valk & ARC.
For lighter 120-130gr in 6.5 Creedmoor RL15.5 is money. It's to bulky for small cases, but in the Creedmoor your running about 95% fill with 120-130's. Alliant is way way conservative on the 15.5 data in the Creed. I worked up to 2 full grains over max published with 130 Berger's. According to Gordon's I was near, but not over max. SD's were hovering 3-6 & 130 Hybrids were 2960 from a 25" barrel.
For 135gr + I switch to RL16, H4350, or N555
For comparison to the 38.5 Match load with 123 eldm @2840
41.0gr of 15.5, a mild load would be 2990 & 93% fill.
FYI - Gordon's speed prediction was within about 15fps for the RL 15.5 in my Creedmoor (on the low side). It doesn't line up for all powders, but it was very close with the 15.5.
IDK, I've seen the exact opposite. Case fill seems to matter WAY more with loads using extruded/stick powder than it does with ball powders.
That's part of the reason one can do mag dumps with hastily loaded 9mm using crusty range pick-up brass over a chrono and still get SD's in the low single digits. I've shot over 24lbs of StaBall 6.5 over the last couple of years, loading it at 41gn (~80% case fill or probably less in 6CM, loaded rounds sound like salt shakers when you shake them lol), still getting SD's in the 7-9 range.
There are a few exceptions, like in the case of Varget/SW Precision Rifle where the powder can make things easier, but mostly low SD's come from making good ammo and being a proficient reloader, and not much else.
Gordons Reloading Tool may be helpful to some (not me), but it uses some questionable algorithms and spits out a lot of useless nonsense too (as compared to real-world testing, which is still the only real way to do it IMHO).
If I get a chance and come across it, I plan to pick up some StaBall Match and give it a try with some 109's and 112's, maybe start ~38gn and see what I get...
I had the opportunity to test the new StaBall Match as well as the HD. I did not test for speed. I took 9 calibers and built test loads. Here is a link to the article I wrote for Mossy Oak.
www.mossyoak.com
Putting the New StaBall Match and StaBall HD To the Test
It isn’t every day that you get to try out some new powder! When Hodgdon’s Aaron Oelger told me that he was shipping me samples of the new Winchester StaBall Match and StaBall HD, I immediately started my research on the Reloading Data Center on Hodgdon’s website.
www.mossyoak.com It goes with the territory. Absolutely no help LOl
So, I was able to get out this past Sunday and try more loads with different weight bullets. Since I got pretty good results with the 123gr ELD match, I tried a few tenths on either side of the 38.5gr of staball match just to see if I could do any better.
I was able to get slightly better group with 38.4gr at an average of 2,789 ft/sec. Ended up at 0.345 MOA
I also tried some 130gr ELD's and some 140gr Barnes Match Burners BTHP. I didn't have much luck with the 130gr ELD's, but the 140's did pretty good with a 0.5 MOA on 35.7gr running at an average 2,555 ft/sec. Velocities with the 140gr were extremely consistent (35.7gr were all within 7 ft/sec) I think it would've been a lot better if I hadn't of messed up that last shot. I'm going to try loading some more around the 35.7gr range to see what I can do.
I have some 143gr ELD-X and 147gr ELD Match to try also.
I was able to get slightly better group with 38.4gr at an average of 2,789 ft/sec. Ended up at 0.345 MOA
I also tried some 130gr ELD's and some 140gr Barnes Match Burners BTHP. I didn't have much luck with the 130gr ELD's, but the 140's did pretty good with a 0.5 MOA on 35.7gr running at an average 2,555 ft/sec. Velocities with the 140gr were extremely consistent (35.7gr were all within 7 ft/sec) I think it would've been a lot better if I hadn't of messed up that last shot. I'm going to try loading some more around the 35.7gr range to see what I can do.
I have some 143gr ELD-X and 147gr ELD Match to try also.
Spending most of our time fixing storm damage from January and before we would call that done, we got hit again...
Till then, here are some ideas for when the weather clears.
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